Guild Wars 2

Direksone.3867:

Haven’t read all the posts, but are you still speculating if it is Mordremoth or not? While we do not know Scarlet’s true ‘end game’, aside from waking up the Dragon I believe it has been confirmed that it is Mordremoth, by Arenanet. Woodenpotatoes and Mattvisual also said on their podcast a few weeks ago (when the patch hit) that they have been told weeks before that by ANet that they were going to reveal another Dragon, specifically Mordremoth.

We know that her plans were to awaken Mordremoth. We just don’t know why she was awakening it though. We know that she was being manipulated by a being only known as “the Entity” so far, but that’s about it. The full extent of Scarlet’s plans are unknown. The Entity’s identity is unknown, and it’s Entity’s motives are fully unknown as well.

Everything is really up to speculation until some of these unknowns are filled in.

Ah alright. Yea I can see why you’re speculating who this entity is, but it probably is Mordremoth as that would be the most obvious and ANet is not known for very strong story thusfar with this game. It’s probably not as deep as people want it to be.

It being just Mordremoth is a possibility, but as I said; there are too many unknowns to rule solely in its favor.

Direksone.3867:

Ah alright. Yea I can see why you’re speculating who this entity is, but it probably is Mordremoth as that would be the most obvious and ANet is not known for very strong story thusfar with this game. It’s probably not as deep as people want it to be.

Might be the major reason people doing speculations, because everything is clear. No it’s not!

Death-picture-entity (dpe) might have influenced her with speaking to her, but the Pale Tree did either. She wanted to set both against each other (which probably wasn’t the case or balanced).

If we define dpe as Mordremoth, then she didn’t work for him and if you want to set two enemies against each other without having too much trouble, then you care for equal power (easier for yourself if you are against both).

Mord is the most obvious, because he is put into your sight like E while having a vote between E(llen Kiel) and E(von Gnashblade). I try to figure out the function of the dragons between 3 possibilities, but still need some informations.

I stay at my position saying a) Mordremoth maybe was in her mind, but didn’t corrupt her b) the Pale Tree lies intentionally (might be a good reason, but he lies) and c) she was her own master (and there are not many in Tyria). Everything gets a little bit reduced with the point that all in Tyria are heavily underpowered (even ED) and need support to get things changed. She worked together with some groups and maybe there is a leader, but even this one is underpowered in regards towards the other two fighting sides.

The story is great, but the representation makes problem and a lot things that are theoretical written, but probably not implemented.

Horst Hortensie.5420:

Direksone.3867:

Ah alright. Yea I can see why you’re speculating who this entity is, but it probably is Mordremoth as that would be the most obvious and ANet is not known for very strong story thusfar with this game. It’s probably not as deep as people want it to be.

Might be the major reason people doing speculations, because everything is clear. No it’s not!

Death-picture-entity (dpe) might have influenced her with speaking to her, but the Pale Tree did either. She wanted to set both against each other (which probably wasn’t the case or balanced).

If we define dpe as Mordremoth, then she didn’t work for him and if you want to set two enemies against each other without having too much trouble, then you care for equal power (easier for yourself if you are against both).

Mord is the most obvious, because he is put into your sight like E while having a vote between E(llen Kiel) and E(von Gnashblade). I try to figure out the function of the dragons between 3 possibilities, but still need some informations.

I stay at my position saying a) Mordremoth maybe was in her mind, but didn’t corrupt her b) the Pale Tree lies intentionally (might be a good reason, but he lies) and c) she was her own master (and there are not many in Tyria). Everything gets a little bit reduced with the point that all in Tyria are heavily underpowered (even ED) and need support to get things changed. She worked together with some groups and maybe there is a leader, but even this one is underpowered in regards towards the other two fighting sides.

The story is great, but the representation makes problem and a lot things that are theoretical written, but probably not implemented.

Well, Scarlet did awake a dragon and she knew she was going to wake one. So the question has to be asked: Who would benefit from the awakening of a dragon?
The only possible answer I know is that the dragon (probably Mordremoth) was the one who forced her to disturb the Ley Lines. I don’t think the Pale Tree was lying simply because that wouldn’t fit into the (not thrilling) storywriting of ANet.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Well, Scarlet did awake a dragon and she knew she was going to wake one. So the question has to be asked: Who would benefit from the awakening of a dragon?

We are very very deep into a giant war. The theme of the game “the guild wars” is running and three sides are fighting. One has already lost (looks like) and the other two are quite imbalanced. The lost side profits the most (green), because the other two (blue & red) are more occupied with themselfes. It’s expectable that every side has a hidden leadership.

Erukk.1408:

It being just Mordremoth is a possibility, but as I said; there are too many unknowns to rule solely in its favor.

We already know there are only 6 elder dragons. From NPCs in the game we can gather that Bubbles is already awake in the deep ocean and the rest we already know to be awake from direct observation of said dragon.

There isn’t anything else that dragon could be besides Mordremoth.

Anyway i’ve said before but I don’t think waking up Mordremoth was Scarlet’s goal at all. In What Scarlet Saw Scarlet said she didn’t want to follow the pale tree or the nightmare, she didn’t want to follow whatever she dreamt but at the same time she didn’t want to go the opposite and just become part of the nightmare, she wanted a middle option. Now if we believe the idea that sylvari are dragon minions or not, awakening Mordremoth doesn’t seem to get closer to that goal in any way. If sylvari are dragon minions, dragons don’t promote their minions being free; if sylvari arn’t dragon minions, how would Mordremoth help sylvari become free from the dream?

We know there are 6 elder dragons in the region.

There is the vague possibility of more throughout the world.

Her ultimate goal was to die and she succeeded. She didn’t want to live in a world where the voice in her head was awakened.

Direksone.3867:

Haven’t read all the posts, but are you still speculating if it is Mordremoth or not? While we do not know Scarlet’s true ‘end game’, aside from waking up the Dragon I believe it has been confirmed that it is Mordremoth, by Arenanet. Woodenpotatoes and Mattvisual also said on their podcast a few weeks ago (when the patch hit) that they have been told weeks before that by ANet that they were going to reveal another Dragon, specifically Mordremoth.

The confirmation was not on the voice, but the dragon that woke up – in the cinematic. There’s no question that Scarlet woke up Mordremoth. But there is question on who that voice was. Nothing confirms that the voice is Mordremoth.

Direksone.3867:

Ah alright. Yea I can see why you’re speculating who this entity is, but it probably is Mordremoth as that would be the most obvious and ANet is not known for very strong story thusfar with this game. It’s probably not as deep as people want it to be.

It’s less “deep” and more “wide” to connect things to different groups. Which fits what Anet said they wanted to do – they don’t want another Abaddon where everything ends up being tied to one person (in this case, the Elder Dragons).

Which is something people tend to do (connecting everything to ED).

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Well, Scarlet did awake a dragon and she knew she was going to wake one. So the question has to be asked: Who would benefit from the awakening of a dragon?
The only possible answer I know is that the dragon (probably Mordremoth) was the one who forced her to disturb the Ley Lines. I don’t think the Pale Tree was lying simply because that wouldn’t fit into the (not thrilling) storywriting of ANet.

If it was an ED making Scarlet’s moves, then it breaks the entire methodology of the Elder Dragons. They corrupt and consume, yes, but they don’t use technology. The closest we’ve ever seen them use in terms of technology is pistols and rifles. Even with corrupted Inquest and thus the knowledge of how to use so many fancy gismos – and the gismos being right next to them.

If Scarlet was in any fashion directly by any Elder Dragon, then we have for the first time an Elder Dragon using more than your basic zerg tactics (as honestly, that’s what the Elder Dragons do – zerg target A; zerg target B; zerg target C). Chose a target strategically, maybe trap them with no way out, then overwhelm them.

To expand on the question of who might benefit from awakening a dragon without actually being a servant of that dragon…

Consider, as a mental exercise, the political impacts of previous dragon awakenings. Jormag benefited the charr, as it pushed the Modniir to attack Kryta (thus distracting Kryta from the war effort against the charr) while pushing the norn south where they could act as a check against the dredge. The Great Tsunami massively weakened Kryta, benefiting everyone who’s taken advantage of that – in Sea of Sorrows it’s implied that humans had been pushing back around Ebonhawke while they’re back under direct siege on the walls in EoD, centaurs, foundation of New Lion’s Arch and the Dominion of Winds – in fact, whether this is a good thing for them or not is up to debate, but without the Great Tsunami there’s a good chance that Kryta might have expanded to include the Grove. The Dragonbrand, by and large, has benefited Ebonhawke – at a time when Kryta’s ability to assist was severely constrained by its own problems, the Brand meant that instead of the charr being able to exploit that vulnerability, they came to the negotiating table and started making significant concessions.

Now, not all of those consequences could likely have been foreseen… but some of them might be. It’s quite plausible that someone might have reason to believe that awakening a dragon might tip the balance in their favour. The dragon’s going to wake up and need to be dealt with at some stage, after all… might as well be at a time when it’s useful?

Who that might be… that is the question. Right now, we don’t know enough about what’s going on in the Maguuma to do more than make a few educated guesses as to who the players might be, let alone what impact an awakening Elder Dragon might have.

Either way, this fits Scarlet’s quote about “the forces that seek to control us can be set against one another to the detriment of both” much better than her simply being a dragon minion serving the dragon. She – or the entity controlling her – wanted to remodel the world under her own control: part of the theory might be that whoever wins between the dragons and the loose alliance of “good” nations, if it’s made a Pyrrhic victory than the winner could be quickly dealt with by Scarlet or her puppeteer.

Alternatively, of course, it could just be that at the time of that quote, she didn’t realise she was under the domination of one of those forces already.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

draxynnic.3719:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Of course it can, we did it before. Well, we had it done to us before. (Prophecies, Vizier Khilbron’s method of dealing with the White Mantle and Mursaat in the way? Sic us on them. We do his work for him.)

Ironically, though, you can turn that around – Glint was the puppetmaster through the whole Prophecies, but was her real objective to arrange for the Door of Komalie to be properly sealed, or was she using Abaddon to settle a grudge with the mursaat and closing the Door of Komalie was just a requirement of minimising the collateral damage?

Impossible to say, since the one who could tell us is sort of destroyed.

Not necessarily impossible – she may have confided to one of her allies or children beforehand. Either way, though, the Flameseeker Prophecies was definitely a case of Glint setting her enemies against one another in aims of defeating them both.

No it’s pretty simple actually. The dragons come around every 10,000 years or so to eat magic, otherwise magic gets too powerful and living beings rip Tyria apart. This balance has lasted for who knows how many cycles.

Unfortunately, things have begun to change. Our heros, mighty Shepards of the population, defeated one of the dragons. Its starting to look like the beings of Tyria might be too powerful this time.

Scarlet decided Tyria needs her and sought to wake all the dragons at once so they could overcome the mortals and set the cycle right. She probably didn’t think of this on her own, she seems to be mind controlled, or “indoctrinated” if you will, by some other force that seeks to spark the conflict in the favor of the dragons, a “catalyst” of sorts.

What I’m saying is its the Mass Effect story.

Rukh.9287:

What I’m saying is its the Mass Effect story.

Well if it ends like ME3 I’m picking the red pi- option.

Rukh.9287:

No it’s pretty simple actually. The dragons come around every 10,000 years or so to eat magic, otherwise magic gets too powerful and living beings rip Tyria apart. This balance has lasted for who knows how many cycles.

We have no clue what happens if there would be no Elder Dragons to consume magic. The idea that magic would get too powerful and “living beings [would] rip Tyria apart” is pure unsupported player speculation. We don’t even know if new magic is introduced into the world – keep in mind that hibernating Elder Dragons release the magic they consume! So for all we know there is a set amount of magic, and it just goes from being within Elder Dragons to being throughout the world of Tyria – and if the Elder Dragons are killed, it’ll eventually just get to the “being throughout the world of Tyria” stage with the only change being a lot of magic is available.

It really isn’t a Mass Effect story yet because we don’t know what would happen if the Elder Dragons weren’t around. In Mass Effect, the Reapers were made because the races would all create robotic servants and said robotic servants would grow too powerful and overcome their creators – that this was a repeating cycle in of itself, so the Leviathans, whom thought themselves infallible, created the Intelligence and after some time contemplating the solution, it ended up doing the exact same thing that said robotic servants always did. In other words, the Mass Effect story is dumbed down to “people who think they’re untouchable will end up screwing themselves over, and screwing everyone else over in the process” taken to galaxy-ending scales. While they share the “world-ending” theme, the plot’s very different thus far – and still would be if magic ended up being too powerful for the races, or the world, to handle without the Elder Dragons’ presence (something I doubt we’ll see – logically – in GW2’s lifespan).

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Elder_Dragon

They keep the magic balanced by consuming it and drawing it into themselves; though indications show that this isn’t their goal or intention, but rather a side-effect of how they function. Every several thousand years (roughly 10,000 years according to the Durmand Priory), the dragons wake and consume everything in the world, thereby reducing the world to a low level of magic, before going back to sleep. Then the magic they have consumed bleeds out into the world, harmless unlike when they’re awake, only for the dragons to eventually awaken once more and the cycle to begin again.

I am quite aware of the wiki’s article. I wrote a good portion of it, after all. Nonetheless, we still hold no evidence as for what will happen if the Elder Dragons stop consuming magic – does magic continue to increase? Will it stabilize? Perhaps the Elder Dragons don’t just consume and release magic but produce it too, resulting in magic lowering over the centuries into nothing? And if it does continue to increase, then what happens? Does it become volatile? Does it do anything at all?

We really have so little evidence to say anything with a strong amount of certainty. We can look at elementals for what happens when magic concentrates too much in a landscape (elementals are born in areas of higher concentrations of magic); we can look to Orr for an idea of how civilizations will become. But even these are minor sample sets, often with a lot of external influences (especially Orr – in the form of the Six Gods).

On the other hand, though, the accounts of the wars that followed the unsealing of the bloodstone, while not very substantial, and drawn largely from a source of dubious report, still likely contain a grain of truth. Considering that, rather magic eventually levels out or not is a moot point; that threshold would still be above what the races would need to destroy themselves. Granted, there are still possibilities that would avert such a disaster: if a dead dragon doesn’t leak magic like a hibernating one, for instance, or Konig’s example of dragons being necessary to replace spent magic, or if by the time such power is available every race across Tyria has reached such a utopian society that magic would never again be used in warfare. Still, I think the idea of too much magic being a bad thing has some degree of support to it, enough to put it a half-step above the theory that nothing would happen.

Rukh.9287:

What I’m saying is its the Mass Effect story.

Mass Effect doesn’t have a monopoly on that. Xenosaga did it also, now that I think about it. But other fictions have dipped their toes into it too.

Semi-recently? “All this has happened before and it will happen again.” I’m sure there are others too.

Though I suspect it’s less that.

Do we have confirmation that what Scarlet wanted to do was to awaken Mordremoth? Also, do we know if the Ley Line explosion sent magic towards Mordremoth only? What if the explosion also had an effect on the other Elder Dragons? Maybe Scarlet’s plan was to temper with the Ley Lines to empower the rest of the Elder Dragons unknowingly that it would awaken Mordremoth. The way I could see this fitting in is if Mordremoth is the Entity and he was playing Scarlet into thinking that she was doing what she planned (empowering the Elder Dragons) while what she additionally achieved was awakening Mordremoth.

Also Mordremoth has been awoken that much is true but he hasn’t risen yet. Every time an Elder Dragon rose it had massive impact on Tyria and forced races to leave their homelands. This hasn’t happened yet with Mordremoth which makes me hope we’ll be able to see this next season.

We only saw one “magic spike”, going towards M.D.Mort. And it didn’t really wake up and rise, more like opened and eye and hit snooze on the alarm clock I think?

Well I know, but I’m thinking they just wanted to emphasize on Mordremoth awakening. And what I think is more in line, he was fed enough magic to wake up from slumber but still needs time to gain full power to rise. That sorta thing.

I was asking a question, not stating a fact, I wasn’t around when the final battle against Scarlet took place. All information I have concerning the battle of LA update is second hand.

Well honestly I just watched a video of it all so I didn’t experience it first hand either.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Rukh.9287:

What I’m saying is its the Mass Effect story.

Mass Effect doesn’t have a monopoly on that. Xenosaga did it also, now that I think about it. But other fictions have dipped their toes into it too.

Semi-recently? “All this has happened before and it will happen again.” I’m sure there are others too.

Though I suspect it’s less that.

It’s a disavowed sequel for many, but Star Control 3 was also based on a similar premise back in the mid-90s.

Is it ever explained what the “Mean Asura” are up to in the player’s dream if they start as a Sylvari are up to? I haven’t played through their full living story.

Also the shadow dragon uses Entangling Thorns and Summon Plant Wolves.

draxynnic.3719:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Rukh.9287:

What I’m saying is its the Mass Effect story.

Mass Effect doesn’t have a monopoly on that. Xenosaga did it also, now that I think about it. But other fictions have dipped their toes into it too.

Semi-recently? “All this has happened before and it will happen again.” I’m sure there are others too.

Though I suspect it’s less that.

It’s a disavowed sequel for many, but Star Control 3 was also based on a similar premise back in the mid-90s.

There was no Star Control 3.

There also was never any other Highlander movies other than the first, and it was a shame they never made sequels to “The Matrix”.

Yeah that really is too bad they didn’t make more matrix movies. That movie seemed like such an outstanding story and solid start, it’d be nearly impossible to mess up a sequel!

Konig Des Todes.2086:

I am quite aware of the wiki’s article. I wrote a good portion of it, after all. Nonetheless, we still hold no evidence as for what will happen if the Elder Dragons stop consuming magic – does magic continue to increase? Will it stabilize? Perhaps the Elder Dragons don’t just consume and release magic but produce it too, resulting in magic lowering over the centuries into nothing? And if it does continue to increase, then what happens? Does it become volatile? Does it do anything at all?

We really have so little evidence to say anything with a strong amount of certainty. We can look at elementals for what happens when magic concentrates too much in a landscape (elementals are born in areas of higher concentrations of magic); we can look to Orr for an idea of how civilizations will become. But even these are minor sample sets, often with a lot of external influences (especially Orr – in the form of the Six Gods).

I’ve wondered about this myself. Specifically. what happens if we succeed in killing all the dragons. What will absorb the magic then? Will the death of Zhaitan, cause the remaining dragons to stay active longer? My thought has been , if it’s magic that they want, then let’s give it to them. History shows, that once the dragons have full bellies, they hibernate for 10,00 years.

Keep in mind that dragon minions also absorb magic. So it isn’t just “kill the Elder Dragons” but “kill the Elder Dragons and each and every one of their minions, lieutenants, and champions”.

The issue with your thought is that the living beings apparently embody magic (according to Oola; my guess? the soul is comparable to magic, given that demons consume souls for nourishment in a similar manner to imps and dragon minions consuming magic). So the Elder Dragons would consume not just magic… but living beings too – they just don’t consume the flesh.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

draxynnic.3719:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Rukh.9287:

What I’m saying is its the Mass Effect story.

Mass Effect doesn’t have a monopoly on that. Xenosaga did it also, now that I think about it. But other fictions have dipped their toes into it too.

Semi-recently? “All this has happened before and it will happen again.” I’m sure there are others too.

Though I suspect it’s less that.

It’s a disavowed sequel for many, but Star Control 3 was also based on a similar premise back in the mid-90s.

There was no Star Control 3.

There also was never any other Highlander movies other than the first, and it was a shame they never made sequels to “The Matrix”.

That’s pretty much what ‘disavowed sequel’ means.

To be fair, though, it was no match to the original except in some purely technical senses, as well as being an illegitimate heir (being made by a different design studio), but if we put aside that in many ways it doesn’t fit the franchise whose IP it was built off and that TFB would probably do a much better job… SC3 actually wasn’t that bad if considered in isolation. If they’d used original IP instead of cribbing off Star Control’s, and generally presented it as a game in the same genre as Star Control rather than treating it as being part of the same franchise, it’d probably have been the next best thing.

The point still stands, though, that SC3 did the cycle of destroyers wiping out all sapient life on a regular basis back in 1996, and therefor predates Mass Effect and Xenosaga. That it didn’t measure up to SC2 or to what TFB were probably planning for the future of the Star Control universe doesn’t change that they did that storyline first.

Occam’s razor. Simplest explaination is the true one.

Scarlet wanted to wake Mordremoth up, whether because the sylvari are his minions or she’s crazy enough to do it for kittens and giggles.

All of the “well this book says” or “this interview says” or the numerous dangling plot threads and what abouts are more the result of poor writing than any grand design.

Occam’s Razor is seldom the situation, however, when it comes to invented stories. Furthermore, you got it wrong – “the simplest explanation is often the correct one” – but besides that, what is the simplest explanation? When can you merit getting to it?

When you look at the full picture rather than just “Scarlet woke up Mordremoth; Scarlet is a plant; Mordremoth is a plant dragon” you don’t get what you say is the simplest explanation of “sylvari are his minions”. To me, once you look at the full picture – which is necessary for Occam’s Razor (otherwise you’d get that Shiro simply wanted to return to life, and Suun’s warnings of what would have happened if Shiro wasn’t stopped was simply that he’d cause a lot of trouble – get the full picture, and you’d see that Suun’s warnings were more about Abaddon) – there is no simplest explanation because we don’t yet have all the pieces.

You cannot put together a jigsaw puzzle when you lack a third of the pieces.

I like this theory as it would be pretty cool to return to older lore. (and the mursaat are kitten + it gives us a reason to use AR outside FotM)

But to understand the possible corruption of Scarlet, We have to look at other cases of Elder Dragon corruption and compare.

I chose the first that came in my mind: Svanir

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Jora%27s_Curse

Svanir: “Do you feel it, Jora? Something in the air.”
Jora: “All I feel is a chill harsher than any blizzard.”
Svanir: “Yes, it is cold. But it also feels ancient. Old and powerful.”
Jora: “This place is cursed, Svanir. Let us leave it.”
Svanir:* “No. A simple spell should reveal the nature of the power.”*
Jora: “I do not know what we contacted that day, but its energies nearly consumed us.”
Jora: “I resisted the power, and was cursed by it. I cannot embrace the wild. *I can no longer become the bear.”*
Jora: “My brother seized the power and went mad. He was transformed. He became the creature you fought.”

Svanir was a Norn, he was seduced by the promise of power, he became corrupted by Jormag through Drakkar (Was the dragon in the lake Drakkar? as I remember something about A-net retconning this and say it was Jormag after all)

Did the same thing happen with Scarlet and Mordremoth?

you could say Ceara transformed into the monster: Scarlet as Svanir transformed into the Nornbear

The corruption of Jormag disrupted the spiritual connection of Jora and the spirits of the wild. Mordremoth might have disabled the connection between Scarlet and the Pale Tree in the same way. (it’s a stretch, I know)

Jora: “My brother now raids the Norn settlements. He avoids me, though I pursue him.”

Scarlet could also been seen as just destroying things, but she is more complicated, this is why I think she wasn’t corrupted like Svanir:

Scarlet wasn’t power hungry, though. she looked for knowledge, not for power. it would make more sense she would follow somebody promising knowledge, an elder race like the Seers or the Mursaat are plausible.

She had a powerful mind and could easily resist the corruption. Scarlet also wasn’t transformed physically, we know the process goes slowly (in most cases)but you can’t see any trace of corruption on Scarlet.

Scarlet doesn’t proclaim Mordremoth, she doesn’t try to corrupt others as other ED Champions would do.

the only evidence you could give that scarlet was spreading the corruption would be with the tower of nightmares, as the toxic spores could be seen as corruption, but that’s a stretch, as it was done to perfect the Miasma and the Toxins killed, it didn’t corrupt.

wouw.5837:

Svanir was a Norn, he was seduced by the promise of power, he became corrupted by Jormag through Drakkar (Was the dragon in the lake Drakkar? as I remember something about A-net retconning this and say it was Jormag after all)

Anet explicitly said Drakkar/dragon in the lake was not Jormag.

I love this forum!! Great theories OP.

Its not over……. Who’s under the hood?……. Its a mystery…….

Niiiice photos. Scarlet needs a brother. I feel like she has a benefactor somewhere out there…

Personally I think we should all stop with the fan theorys because honestly at the moment I feel like the fans theories are way too awesome to come true. Not to be offensive to the ‘lore keeper’ but she hasn’t excatly impressed me thus far.

She loves the Slyvari for example, yet I and many of my guildies think they are the worst race in the entire game storywise. In fact the lore keeper seemed to have gone out of her way to force them down your throat with them being key in EVERY personal storyline.

When I first rolled a nord I was enjoying the story and fact it every quest seem pretty cool and unique in terms of the background and my character was the main dude! Then I get the quest to go to the tree thinking, “Huh this will just be a one time thing.” Nope lone behold the next 20 quests involve me and some kitten who becomes the centre of attention, and is apperntly my character’s ‘friend’. Frankly if I was my nord I would of killed trahearne the moment he cleansed the heart of orr and he didn’t excatly do much, “Defend me while I cast this ritual.”
“Uhm dude… if it’s a ritual why can’t the priory do it?”
“kitten This is my story!”
“… Despite the fact you make me do everything… it’s…. your story? kitten dis kitten.”

While the Tengu who have prehaps the richest history in the whole of Tyria are put on the back foot, worst still in the fight for lines arch they shoot you for coming close to the wall, when your trying to effectively stop Scarlet who is more likely than the ‘wannabe heroes’ to attack them in order to get access to the leylines?

Seriously I just can’t get my head around some of the choices they are making, it makes close to no sense in many cases.

Look frankly, theorycrafting is fun when you are really into the story but I find myself actually repulsed by the whole thing when the Personal story jams the boring Slyvari down my throat and continues to do so with the whole Scarlet business.

Seriously please do something with a diffirent race for once, I am sick of Slyvari this and Slyvari that. The next over arcing villian that isn’t a dragon better not be Slyvari or I am just giving up with trying to make sense of anything.

But again let me repeat;

We all know chances are the awesome theories that could be extremely interesting will be throw out of the window and we will get something less than desirable or shallow (I’m calling it now the next arc villian or major npc will be Slyvari).

A: Norn
B: Trahearne doesn’t steal glory or credit, so frankly, a Norn would have no reason to kill him in the first place. By that point, even less so.
C: He never acts as if it’s ‘his story’. Pay attention in the actual missions.
D: The ritual also required the sword he used as I recall, and it was his Wyld hunt to cleanse Orr. So yes, it’s likely he knew the ritual and few others did, much less anybody ON THE SCENE.
E: Tengu have, LITERALLY even when LA was safe and sound, threatened to shoot people coming too close to the gate. That’s why they had the guards there warning people off. During the battle there is a drill nearby and the dredge rush the wall over and over, so they simply were keeping anybody from getting close to the wall and maybe using explosives.

I don’t see how the Sylvari are being shoved everywhere like you say, or how they are so “Boring and dull”. Note this past LS arc there was not one Sylvari hero named.

Kalavier.1097:

A: Norn
B: Trahearne doesn’t steal glory or credit, so frankly, a Norn would have no reason to kill him in the first place. By that point, even less so.
C: He never acts as if it’s ‘his story’. Pay attention in the actual missions.
D: The ritual also required the sword he used as I recall, and it was his Wyld hunt to cleanse Orr. So yes, it’s likely he knew the ritual and few others did, much less anybody ON THE SCENE.
E: Tengu have, LITERALLY even when LA was safe and sound, threatened to shoot people coming too close to the gate. That’s why they had the guards there warning people off. During the battle there is a drill nearby and the dredge rush the wall over and over, so they simply were keeping anybody from getting close to the wall and maybe using explosives.

I don’t see how the Sylvari are being shoved everywhere like you say, or how they are so “Boring and dull”. Note this past LS arc there was not one Sylvari hero named.

A: Any race same rule applies. Dismissing it on a fact of race is fairly foolish, on your part. What you are saying is that because someone was maining a norn on their first playthrough everything they automatically say should be disregarded. Also note that Norn are Nords. They’re the same bloody style of culture.
B: doesn’t he? Because last time I checked all the characters refer to him as Uniting the Trinity when in fact he did little or close to nothing to achieve such a feat.
C: Actually he pretty much states it’s his story when he brings up the topic of his Wlyd Hunt. If it’s not about him then why is he the one everyone is constantly dicussing in missions. You are his aid, he is the hero. This is a support role.
D: If I recall every guild was on the scene, rather they stayed behind to protect Trahearne while he preformed the appernt ritual. The whole Wlyd Hunt thing alone gives me huge issues, it basically determines ones fate from the midway point of the story which from a story telling perspective is a big no no.
E: Prehaps your missing my point. During the LA event they shot even the people trying to help them. It’s rather foolish of them to attack the very people helping them keep the wall safe, and the fact the drill was even their showed they was struggling.

To further expand:
In the Main Story Trahearne should simply not have exsisted or atleast be a addition to Destiny Edge. Rather than force us the player to serve under him as if he was the main character which you claim he wasn’t when infact he was.

Note how the main villian was Slyvari and someone you saw in every aspect of the LS, and the ‘heroes’ played minor roles, often just there to narrate excatly what was going on.

Also you brought up the fact he was a renowned expert in Orr eh? http://krellendotnet.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/make-the-call.jpg

So of course it’s upto me to find it for him, like everything else in Orr.

A: His only point was that they’re called norn. They’re not Nords despite the same “style of culture” because they’re only the same “style of culture” due to the shared norse inspiration. I somehow doubt that nords are shapeshifters who pride legends over all else and are individualists.
B: Actually, they refer to the player character, who suggests Trahearne be the leader because he’s the one who is unrelated but liked by the orders. In fact, it’s a plot point that the orders would never have met together if not for the player character.
C: He doesn’t call it his story, actually. He does say it is his Wyld Hunt to cleanse Orr and that’s what the final few story steps are before we go after Zhaitan, but this is no different than Caithe saying it is her Wyld Hunt to kill Zhaitan, or Tegwen saying that her Wyld Hunt is to kill the norn champion that you kill in Shards of Orr storyline.
D: I recently did it and there are some nameless mooks from Vigil and Whispers present – not sure about Priory though – but Kalavier’s point remains. Only Trahearne knows the ritual because he spent 23 years studying Orr and how to reverse corruption. Also, this is not an issue of Trahearne’s Wyld Hunt but Trahearne’s appearance to non-sylvari. If you played a sylvari first, I guarantee you’d have a MUCH different view on him – it seems to be a case of whether people have played sylvari lvl 20-30 PS before meeting him on Claw Island for whether they like him or not.
E: They are sitting on a high wall – or on the other side of it. They cannot tell who are allies and who are not. Especially when the enemies consist of all five playable races. The drill wasn’t showing they were struggling at all – people call it a drill but it’s actually an access tunnel entrance (the drill part being used to drill the tunnel) used by dredge to get around.

Trahearne existed because he played a role that the player characters couldn’t fill. Player characters, due to the nature of being an MMO, cannot be “the well-known leader of the famous group”. Just like how Kormir and Prince Rurik and Master Togo and even Mhenlo all played roles that the players could not be in an MMO-styled storyline. He was never the main character, he is never in the spotlight except the final 3 story steps. He always defers to you. He would be nowhere without you. The player character always chooses the course of action, the player character always ends the threat. Trahearne wasn’t even there to fight Zhaitan – and it’s stated so! YOU are called the Dragonslayer in Victory or Death. YOU are thanked by Destiny’s Edge. YOU are called the Champion of Orr by King Reza. Not Trahearne.

Honestly, do those who hate Trahearne even bother listening to or reading the dialogue?

And I disagree that the heroes played “minor roles” – I mean, Marjory created the antitoxin to the Tower of Nightmares, Rox and Braham were there the whole time in Flame and Frost, in the front alongside the players. They’re very much not minor roles or just there to narrate. The last few steps had exposition dumps so it may seem like that recently. The only hero one can say played a minor role is Kiel – except for the whole “is now a councilor” bit.

Edit: To your added bit about him letting you decide the course of action, that isn’t a case of “its up to me to find it for him” but “he’s telling you where things are, you get to chose which route to take, they’ll both work but doing both is unnecessary.” Unless you’re referring to the Artesian Waters – which he doesn’t know either (but goes with you to find out so it isn’t a case of “you find it for him”) because it’s lost knowledge. Not even experts know everything on their fields, y’know.

/sigh

The “I HATES TREHEARNE!!1!!1!1!” topic has been done to death. If you wish to discuss it, please either create a new thread or go necro an old one, because it is a bit off topic.

An interesting thread. I haven’t read through all the post, however, it seems to me that no one talk about point on the similarity between Steam Creatures and Clockwork Knights. Furthermore, the visual effect of teleporation used by Scarlet to transport her allies seems to be very similar to the spawn and disappear animation of Steam Creatures and their portals. If my memory is correct Steam Creatures are something back from the future. Could the entity who influence Scarlet is someone back from the future too? That could explain how Scarlet get the knowledge to create Clockwork Knights. What if the entity hate the outcomes on who defeats all elder dragons and would like to change the history to his favor?

OK regarding the tengu and the wall First I suggest you do some reading on the wiki heres the link http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Tengu#History Now for those that are too lazy to do so here is a direct quote from the wiki:
“Winds of Change
Not long after, in 1080 AE, the Empire of the Dragon experienced a surge of nationalism in the wake of the return of Shiro, the Betrayer and his plague. After routing the Am Fah and Jade Brotherhood street gangs, the newly-formed Ministry of Purity turned their sights on the tengu that lived on the mainland, in Kaineng City. The conflict soon spilled over onto Shing Jea Island, and peace with the Angchu finally broke down when Ministry guards witnessed Ryun Grayfeather defending Tsumei Village against Sensali, believing them to be working together and killing Grayfeather.

In 1127 AE, Kisu’s successor, Usoku, finished what the Ministry had started and annexed the vassal states of Kurzick and Luxon back into the empire, before beginning a campaign to drive out non-humans such as tengu and dredge. Against the might of the Canthan military, the tengu had no choice but to flee north, to Tyria and Elona.

[edit]Great Tsunami

Old Lion’s Arch is swept away by the Great Tsunami.
When Zhaitan awoke in 1219 AE, in an event the tengu call the Great Tsunami, the tengu of the world saw it as a sign to return to Tyria. It was a descendant of Talon Silverwing that led the charge through Zhaitan’s risen forces, and when the tengu reached land, they built their Dominion atop the island once known as Sanctum Cay, and unified their clans into the four modern houses, one for each of the winds. Out of fear of a repeated past, they constructed a great wall to encircle their city, and non-tengu are not permitted to enter.¹

Recently, as small groups of destroyers have begun surfacing on the inside of the Dominion, some of the tengu have made tentative ventures into establishing contact with the outside world. Soar Goldbeak has commissioned the asura to build an asura gate at the Hanto Trading Post (although the asura have yet to uphold their end of the bargain), and Izu Steelshrike, an old friend of Pactmarshal Trahearne, has joined the upper ranks of the Pact as a weaponsmith. After the defeat of Zhaitan, Steelshrike mentioned that the death of an Elder Dragon may spark renewed tengu interest into joining the other races in their fight against the dragons."

So Its no wonder that the tengu would attack anything coming close to the wall especially during a full scale battle. Also its not like they shouted down before they fired “Hey you filthy human/norn/sylvari/asura/charr YOUR MOTHER WAS A HAMSTER AND YOUR FATHER SMELT OF ELDARBERRIES!” They were defending themselves not going out of their way to screw the players over.

Just a thought, but if she intended to charge the Elder Dragons with redirected leyline energy, would it not be possible that she intended to simply stuff them full of food (magic) so that they sleep again?

Or, perhaps she intended to lure multiple Elder Dragons to the Breachmaker, and then try to destroy them or let them destroy one another?

Doug Whisper.2465:

An interesting thread. I haven’t read through all the post, however, it seems to me that no one talk about point on the similarity between Steam Creatures and Clockwork Knights. Furthermore, the visual effect of teleporation used by Scarlet to transport her allies seems to be very similar to the spawn and disappear animation of Steam Creatures and their portals. If my memory is correct Steam Creatures are something back from the future. Could the entity who influence Scarlet is someone back from the future too? That could explain how Scarlet get the knowledge to create Clockwork Knights. What if the entity hate the outcomes on who defeats all elder dragons and would like to change the history to his favor?

It’s said by Priory memebers near the ‘corpse’ of the Marionette that Scarlet most likely just captured some Steam creatures and reverse engineered them. It’s also said during Edge of the Mist instance that the Watchknights were built from designs based off of the Steam creatures – and her previous work with Steam creatures (the reverse engineering) is how she was able to take over the Watchknights so easily.

Scarlet isn’t tied to the origins of the Steam creatures.

Keyce.8137:

Just a thought, but if she intended to charge the Elder Dragons with redirected leyline energy, would it not be possible that she intended to simply stuff them full of food (magic) so that they sleep again?

Or, perhaps she intended to lure multiple Elder Dragons to the Breachmaker, and then try to destroy them or let them destroy one another?

They go to sleep when they run out of food, not when they’ve gotten a good meal.

The Breachmaker held no magic, no means of holding magic. So why would they go to the Breachmaker when it’s sending them what they want (magic)?

I’m assuming that the Breachmaker had (or would have, had it lived) sent a large amount of magical energy directly to one or more Elder Dragons. You’re absolutely right that they wouldn’t go to sleep to just a good meal, but what if Scarlet’s intent hadn’t been to awaken an Elder Dragon, but to force-feed them until they had no food left to eat?

YOU CAN HAVE YOUR CAKE AND EAT IT TOO! EAT IT! EAT ALL OF THE CAKE. EAT EVERY CAKE UNTIL THERE ARE NO MORE CAKES LEFT IN THE WORLD. THE CAKE IS NOT A LIE.

For that to happen, Scarlet would have to wipe out all life and somehow gather up all the magic in the land, because magic is imbued in everything in Tyria. (Think of it like water. The oceans might contain the huge majority, but water is everywhere, and it’s in everything,) Then, she would have to be able to direct that huge concentration of magic in multiple directions… to possible moving targets.

In the cinematic, after Scarlet’s death, you see the path of the leyline she hit with the drill. Following that leyline, we reach the dragon underground and see him awaken. I noticed that the map showing the various probes in Tyria after you killed her seems to follow the path shown in the video. It goes from Lion’s Arch through the gendarran fields, then there is a series of dot (probes) going south through the metrica province (possibly near the Thermanauvo reactor which we see in the cinematic) and the last dot/probe you could see following that “path” of probes was directly on the grove. Just saying. I’ve always said that the Pale Tree and Mordremoth are link and he could still be sleeping underneath it. Of course, he didnt rise from the ground yet, but it could still take some time before he can.