Guild Wars 2

Hi, guys! I just recently wrote a lore article on our guild’s official website about the Human Gods of Tyria. Did some reading here and there about the mysterious nature of their powers. They’re not omnipotent, not omniscient either and I personally believe they’re not ageless, which is probably one the reasons they left Arah. The full article is here: http://gw2.garudaclan.org/lore-of-tyria-the-six-divine/. I would love to get feedbacks and more info that I can add to the article.

Also, I would love to know more about everybody’s opinion about this. Which god is your favourite? Have you ever based your character on their looks? Do you think there will be another generation of gods or will the religion eventually wither and die?

My favourite is probably Grenth, sort of crawled his way from a half-god and beat the odds, you know? And judging from the nicknames he got, he’s probably one of the strongest of all Six!

Great read, any chance that you can dig up and cite or link your sources though? Some things there are things I’d take with a grain of salt, such as Malchor being Grenth’s rumoured father (Pretty big thing to have going for you.)

Otherwise, it was a great read.

There’s a mention in the human personal story that Grenth’s father was ‘a mortal sculptor’. I don’t think we’ve ever had 100% confirmation that this was Malchor, but Malchor is the most likely suspect.

Going through the god’s descriptions you’ve made:

Dwayna: Do you have a citation for her being particularly revered by guardians? It makes sense, since monks and paragons both tended to have Dwayna as their patron and the guardian includes those two professions, but I don’t think it’s actually ever been stated.

Dwayna was also credited as being the goddess of warmth and light in Wintersday events, although that may not be worth adding to a GW2 source.

Melandru: It might be worth acknowledging that the quaggans claim that Melandru and Melaggan are separate. Even though they probably aren’t. :P

Dwayna ist not the ‘primary’ patron of guardians. She wasn’t even the patron god of all monks back in GW1, where simiting monks were mostly followers of Balthazar. I believe that guardians walk a fine line between both deities.

Also, although the wiki states it, I have never seen the actual source for Grenth being associated with destruction. Grenth and Balth both share an association with vengeance, but destruction is an aspect of Menzies and the more brutal sides of Balth.

Also, what makes you think that gods are not ageless? There are no clues for that.

It’s a weak association, but Grenth does have a relation to destruction via his sphere of mortality. He doesn’t take an active hand the way Balthazar does, but he does have the ‘all things inevitably come to an end’ angle covered. Destruction isn’t the word I would use, but it is not entirely unfitting.

I absolutely agree with that. The word ‘destruction’ is a pretty bad term for it. Finiteness or mortality would describe it better, I guess.

Found this on the GW1 wiki, /shrug:

Patronage

• Balthazar: Command & Spear Paragons, Fire Elementalists, Scythe Dervishes, Protection & Smiting Monks, and Warriors.
• Dwayna: Air Elementalists, Divine Favor & Healing Monks, Leadership & Motivation Paragons, and Wind Dervishes.
• Grenth: Assassins, Necromancers, Ritualists, and Water Elementalists.
• Melandru: Earth Dervishes, Earth Elementalists, and Rangers.
• Lyssa: Assassins, Energy Storage Elementalists, Mysticism Dervishes, and Mesmers.

Final score!
Balthazar: 7 classes!
Dwayna: 6 classes!

Balthazar for the win!

Agroman.7190:

Also, although the wiki states it, I have never seen the actual source for Grenth being associated with destruction.

It’s ambient dialogue in DR, where a “necromancer” mentions Grenth being too morbid. To use the exact wording:

Citizen: Of all the gods, I think I like Grenth the least.
Citizen (2): Strange thing for a necromancer to say.
Citizen: He’s just so morbid. Death, destruction, darkness- it’s all too depressing.
Citizen (2): You may want to rethink your choice of profession.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Agroman.7190:

Also, although the wiki states it, I have never seen the actual source for Grenth being associated with destruction.

It’s ambient dialogue in DR, where a “necromancer” mentions Grenth being too morbid. To use the exact wording:

Citizen: Of all the gods, I think I like Grenth the least.
Citizen (2): Strange thing for a necromancer to say.
Citizen: He’s just so morbid. Death, destruction, darkness- it’s all too depressing.
Citizen (2): You may want to rethink your choice of profession.

Just goes to show – in both fiction and reality, humans rarely make sense =_=

I’ll adapt something I wrote for a wiki page.

Ephemeral Spirit

An offering to those who seek, beyond the Mists beyond the Dreams, on distant shores of a land unwaking, answers there lie in waiting.

This prophecy was found ciphered in the the energy signatures of facets of the human gods that the asura Kerrsh was studying in 1078 AE. His notebook was found years later by the Priory. It could be referring to the Elder Dragons—dragons are power, and the facets reflect the nature of the power that the human gods have harnessed. Both the asuran Central Transfer Chamber and the City of Arah were built on places of power, which turned out to be directly over Elder Dragons.

It is difficult to say whether this prophecy has come to pass, as nobody has been able to make sense of it yet. It is possible that the cryptic message refers to the dragons—"a land unwaking" could be the risen kingdom of Orr, and answers to the origin of the dragons do lie there.

This longstanding mystery seems to cut right to the heart of the lore of Guild Wars 2. The first time the Facets investigated were seen, they were in the lair of the prophet Glint, and were called facets of Glint (a similar word, but apparently a completely different meaning to the Aspects, which are also tied to Glint). It should be noted that at this time, Glint proclaimed to be the first creature created by the human gods, aided by the Forgotten, who were supposed to be the first race that the gods brought to Tyria to help guide the other races, but in fact it is now understood that both Glint and the Forgotten predate the gods’ arrival by a long time, the Forgotten being one of the so-called “elder races” that survived the last rise of the Elder Dragons, and Glint being a dragon champion who they had managed to free from Kralkatorrik’s control. Why they chose to maintain the façade of being servants of the human gods is unknown.

Later, the Facets, with the same appearance (namely that of a ghostly Elder Dragon champion), were investigated throughout the Tarnished Coast, Steamspur Mountains, and Woodland Cascades by Kerrsh and understood to be in fact reflective of the nature of the power that the human gods have harnessed, as well as, once again, being ghostly servants somehow tied to the Forgotten. Using a device called the Divination, Kerrsh concluded that the human gods are pieces within the Eternal Alchemy, their manifestation mere facets in the geometric whole. He told his assistant that gods are part of this world, and to think of these “facets” as one of any number of possible manifestations of those gods. He said that the ciphers he found in the energy signatures of the facts were in fact the strings on the harp of the Eternal Alchemy itself. When considering the case of Kormir, a mortal who had transcended into something greater, he wondered if that, too, was part of the Eternal Alchemy—whether it was preordained by some hidden design, or whether there was some power that could go against the schemes of fate.

The ciphers directed Kerrsh to a location, Varajar Fells, where he would spend the rest of his life. There, he said, “the six shall converge”, before being treated with yet another codebreaking exercise, the result of which is the prophecy detailed above. His notebook, found much later written in the same cipher he once yearned to decode, refers to that locale as a “valley of tumbled gods”, and concludes that the “human gods, charr gods, norn animal totems—they are part of the all-encompassing Eternal Alchemy”.

As a final note, apparently unrelated to all of the above, Amaranda the Lonesome’s description of her vision when attempting to discern the origin of Malyck, a sylvari born of a different Tree, matches very closely with the wording of the cipher presented to Kerrsh at Varajar Fells. The Dream, for example, appears to be mentioned in both, as does a “distant shore”, possibly in this context referring to where Ronan found the seed from which the Pale Tree grew.

So, what can we conclude form that about the nature of the gods? Nothing concrete, I’m afraid. They seem to be manifestations of nature, each an interpretation of a different facet in nature. The Elder Dragons and the Spirits of the Wild seem to also be interpretations of those same “facets”, albeit different ones. The gods may be somehow comparable to the Elder Dragons, then. The differences in the energy signatures of the gods, particular to each god, could be something similar to the unique energies that Elder Dragons exude.

Six Elder Dragons, six gods, six Facets…this wouldn’t be the first time the comparison has been drawn. It seems to be coming together, not quite making sense but coming together, but then there’s that bit about the sylvari at the end. How do they tie into everything? There’s earlier talk of fate and hidden designs, which are a running theme in the story of the sylvari. There’s definitely quite a bit missing here, but I think once we understand all this fully, we’ll understand some very deep secrets of the Guild ars universe.

I think that the natures of both the gods and the dragons are too malleable and complex be so easily pigeon-holed.

The only thing definitive about Gods is that, like everything associated with humans, they run away at the most inconvenient moment.

Sartharina.3542:

The only thing definitive about Gods is that, like everything associated with humans, they run away at the most inconvenient moment.

Or simply have the good sense to know when their charge can stand on its own two feet.

I dont get this part in Grenth’s paragraph:
“Thus, Grenth took his place among the gods in the spot where his father had fallen.”

This would indicate Dhuum, or so it would seem considering that the sentence is after explaining how he usurped his position. While stating at the beginning that Grenths father was a mortal sculptor.

lakdav.3694:

I dont get this part in Grenth’s paragraph:
“Thus, Grenth took his place among the gods in the spot where his father had fallen.”

This would indicate Dhuum, or so it would seem considering that the sentence is after explaining how he usurped his position. While stating at the beginning that Grenths father was a mortal sculptor.

“The spot where his father had fallen” refers not to Dhuum but to Malchor, the human sculptor who is heavily implied to be Grenth’s father. Malchor very literally fell to his death just off the coast of Orr, and the region where he did so is named Malchor’s Leap after that fact. Dhuum’s last stand, the spot where Grenth defeated Dhuum in battle and the power of dominion over death was transferred to Grenth, is in Malchor’s Leap.

Thus, Grenth took his place among the gods where his father—Malchor—had fallen. At least, that’s the interpretation that most lore forum users (including myself) subscribe to. There are a couple of issues with this, such as the fact that the exact spot that Malchor actually fell from (named Sculptor’s End) was actually on the cliffs near the Dwaynan Cathedral of Zephyrs, rather than the ossuary of the Lyssan Cathedral of Eternal Radiance (the location of Dhuum’s last stand). But given that most hints seem to intentionally point to the conclusion that Malchor is Grenth’s father, I’d attribute this to either a developmental oversight or a subtlety in the story that we are not aware of (we don’t really have the full details of either event), rather than evidence to the contrary. At the very least ANet want us to believe that Malchor is Grenth’s father, but personally I believe that is because he is.

It’s a shame about the inconsistencies in the lore on this, because otherwise it’d maybe able to shed some light on one of the core mysteries of the games—the subject of this very topic. The exact wording speaks of an “ancient power” being “transferred” to Grenth—does this suggest that the dominion over a particular supernatural force of nature (in this case, death) is independent of the individual wielding it? We knew already that the gods aren’t truly omnipotent, and the fact that the Elder Dragons rival them in power suggests that their “dominion” over an aspect of nature isn’t quite complete. Which makes sense in a way, because they are not of this world, but another—but I don’t think that satisfactorily explains their nature in full. I’m still trying to reconcile this with Kerrsh’s quest (detailed above), but I can’t come up with anything.

Yes, im aware of the history of things, its just the text written by Kartika thats ambiguous without knowing about this. In the first paragraph it is only assumed that it was Malchor, in that sentence it is taken for a fact without naming him, while speaking of taking power where ones father has fallen.

Its not incorrect per se, its just subject to confusion if read by someone who is not familiar with the story.

Maybe it’s referring to Dhuum as Grenth’s father in a metaphorical/allegorical sense? Either as the one Grenth succeeded, or in the sense that he’s the one from which Grenth achieved Apotheosis?

Or it could just be that it was never intended to be read as precisely the same spot. The ossuary is just to the east of the Cathedral of Zephyrs, while Sculptor’s End is just to the west – the writer might have considered opposite sides of the same (admittedly large) building to be close enough.