Guild Wars 2

One thing I have to say is that this is a great game, its probably overall the best mmo I’ve ever played and the world design is top notch in all areas except one- The npcs.

I am a lore guy plain and simple. I bought the first GW mainly because of one thing. The lore and especially GW Nightfall. I found the reflection of the game’s lore to have an area that is not really ever covered in gaming, dealing with a people who don’t get coverage as major characters very often as well. The game is very tasteful and respectful and non stereotypical for the most part (Sure there’s Koss, but that’s about it).

While awaiting this game I kept on reading about “The Grand Diverse Human City of Divinity’s Reach”. How the four major human races have their own district of the city and how diverse the city is, so on and so forth.

And what did I see while I was walking around. 20 percent everyone else as far as npcs go, and 80 percent Ascalonians as far as looks go. Ascalonians are the typical fantasy human race, the western europeans. Now before people jump in and say “But the races are mixed, they’ve been cut off for 250 years”. Let me jump in with a few points.

1. Divinity’s Reach is a Krytan city. Krytans were originally a Elonan colony, eventually they mixed with the Ascalonians and the race ended up having a Brazilian/Sicilian look to them. When you walk around the city you see very few people that look like this. But the interesting thing is that Queen Jennah the leader of the city looks this way. How interesting that the Queen of the city looks this way but the majority of her people do not.

2.I implore anyone to speak to the Divinity’s Reach Tour guide in the Ossan District. She TELLS YOU that the Elonians arrived en masse fifty years ago to the area fleeing Palawa Joko. Now why do I mention this? Because fifty years is not enough time for a race to become this diluted to the point of hardly seeing them- in their own district at that. Even she herself does not look Elonan in the least, she has a clearly Ascalonian look to her and she even speaks in a way that denotes that her words were supposed to have accents. Instead the voice actor sounds more like a midwest school teacher trying to have a Swahili accent.

3. Minister Zamon in the personal story is supposed to be the Minister of the Ossan Quarter. The man looks more Ascalonian (along with his sister) than even Queen Jennah herself who looks more Elonan than him.

4. While walking around the city I saw an npc introducing himself to some women, there was a dark skinned woman amongst the bunch, she looked Elonan but the man doing the introductions claimed he was Elonan (saying that his name was to be pronounced a certain way because of the pronunciations of the Elonan language". The man did not look at all of the race he said his last name was. Now sure, he could have been mixed, but with as few VISIBLE Elonan npcs walking around it would have been quite nice to see this man looking like one.

Now, why does this matter many would ask? I will give you several answers. The best thing about the original GW series was the depth of the humans and the human races. Now I know many people could care less. Most people are happy having the stock typical human races in fantasy because that’s what they are used to. I bought this series because there was a game in the series that represented ME. There were npcs that looked like me and there was an entire game centered around these people. As an rper its a bit jarring to walk down the street in the district that is supposed to be filled with those people and hardly see any of them, and then see other characters that are supposed to be of this racial group and none of them look like the race that is supposed to be of this district. Most people do not know GW lore they did not play the first game and are new to the second game. They don’t know the differences and why GW humans are so great and what makes them so.

These differences in diversity looks and culture is what makes this game truly feel like a world and not simply like the world of Europe. I’ve always applauded the Anet’s efforts and promised to support them for doing this. To see them pull back from this and go in the direction of most mmo companies is a bit disconcerting. It makes me wonder that when the eventual expansions into the other parts of the world arrive will the npcs look as they do now? Nothing like how they did in the original game? Now one could make the excuse again for the races being mixed, sure. But what happens when we see the original areas and countries? Will the npc’s reflect how the races looked in these areas that was established in the old game?

Divinity’s Reach was cool because it was supposed to be the NYC of GW with its own racial districts and such, and when you see the npcs it looks nothing like this at all.

I have to admit, I’m a little let down with how… Well, how whitewashed humanity feels in Guild Wars 2. Kryta had some stong african influences in the first game. But now it feels like everything, from the people to the culture to even the landscape itself has been made more generic and european. It’s a classic fantasy mishap, and a big step down from the first games incredibly diverse presentation of races and cultures.

Hey if anyone from Anet reads this I’ll say this. Please please stick to your guns on the design of what you established from the original series. I understand that time and cashflow play a part in mmo design, I really do, but It would be nice to be in Harlem or Chinatown and actually see Chinese and Black people. It would be nice to be in Little Rio and actually see Brazilians. Otherwise your game just becomes just another purely fantasy mmo. Your diversity was what made the GW series different, unique. Most people play human characters, its always nice to see a developer who has all people in mind when they are playing their game. I understand that most of the playerbase who played the original series played only the first game and have a strong love for Ascalon, but I hope you understand the beauty in your game is the depth and the assortment of colors and looks of the humanity of your world. I can only name two other mmo series that have this and GW is by far the deepest.

It was also the one who didn’t rely on “super physical black guy tropes” like The Elder Scrolls.

I cross my fingers that I am going to see the return of my beautiful brown Sunspears, and perhaps a return of dark Krytans and the tattoos and hairstyles for both groups to pick in the character creator.

I hope in the future expansions I can still find the same beautiful people I saw in Nightfall and factions (And please don’t let your devs turn the african looking Elonans into Arabs), I liked Orr alot and would love to see it and its Arab looking peoples one day be returned to its former glory.

I have to agree here. Guild Wars 2 is such an inclusive game on so many other fronts, that I was dismayed when I noticed that the majority of NPC’s were Caucasian. I have spoken to all the NPC’s the OP named, and I was very happy to find a thread that addresses this. I loved Elona, and the distinct cultural look and feel that it had. I loved it’s people, but I haven’t really seen an Elonian in Divinities Reach. Just tanned Ascalonian’s.
In future content updates and expansions, it would be great if we could see NPC’s who look as though they’re from other parts of the world. Even better – if their sections of the city began to reflect their heritage. Sprinkle some Elonian decorations through their quarter, give them some different clothing (and voice actors, maybe?). The city is absolutely beautiful, but if you’re new to the game you would never guess that it houses the four major human races unless you were told.
This game is so ahead in its portrayal of same-sex relationships, please, please, don’t let yourselves down when it comes to fair representation of the different races – that you created!

I also will agree with what the above poster said about the portrayal of single sex relationships being done very well. I also really have to give you guys alot of respect for having alot of female characters, not just the story/named characters but also as far as seeing the Seraph wandering around the city. I love this, but I would honestly like to know, these details were made apparent, but why was the one thing that made you guys games special overlooked? Aside from the look of the peoples of the region which was vastly different, the different areas of Kryta which had african names due to their Elonan pasts are no longer there. By changing all of this it makes the impact of Ebonhawke stand out much less and make it feel just like a satellite city of DR to those not familiar with the lore.

I’ve always been from the school of “If you don’t see it, it ain’t there” Please realize that the visual impact of something always outways the text impact. Yes you can tell me till I’m blue in the face that Kryta is supposed to be like this- and then I walk around and it does not look like that. It looks like Ascalon part 2.

Could you imagine what would be the thoughts of a player that walked into Kryta for the first time and then made their way over to Ebonhawke and saw the direct differences in how everything looked? How everyone sounded? The direct impact of walking into the Ossan Quarter or the future Canthan part of the city and hearing the different sounds, seeing the different decorations, hearing the different accents?

“Hey did you know that there is a holiday today in the Ossan Quarter?- The Festival of Lyssa”, “Whoa really, lets check it out?”

And each place has different food options to buy from the vendors, different drink options, and different music to mark being in a different quarter…..but at the same time being in the same city. I ask any of you, have you ever been to a large multiracial city? I have lived in one all my life. Its a wonderful thing when I can head down to Chinatown for pork buns head by an Irish pub for a pint, and pass by Harlem on my way back uptown for a slice of sweet potato pie and pick up some beans and rice in the puerto rican restaraunt near my house.

To have something like this in gaming for the first time would be absolutely amazing. Players who are in the Maiden’s Whisper talking about the Vabbian rugs they got to decorate their guild hall. Other players talking about the best silk to buy for crafting is from the old Canthan seamstress that set up shop in Rurikton after the collapse. The strange coincidence that there are more Charr in the Ossan Quarter than anywhere else in the city because the Elonans are not as fearful of them. The ability to buy cultural town clothing from vendors in these districts- including vendors selling traditional Krytan tattoos in either The Commons or Lion’s Arch, especially around holidays.

Its these touches that make a game feel like a world, you guys already have the pieces there. These are not things that have to be made up. Just small things that can be added to show “Hey we aren’t just Super Huge Stormwind with Games”. Can we see more of this? Is it possible? Am I wrong for wanting to see a continuation of the wonderful things you put in your first game but expanded?

Should I give up hope that the distinct looking Luxon will not be portrayed as they were previously? Or that the Elonans will all of a sudden grow lighter and that there will be less of them in Elona than in Nightfall?

What I don’t understand is there is more cultural diversity amongst the Norn than the the humans, there are no non straight hair options for female humans in character creation but a beautiful dreadlocked hairstyle for the Norn women. I don’t get this, I EXPECTED the Norn to look well…..like Vikings so to have this for them but not for the humans is strange.

There are also more dark Norn npcs than humans (especially the one sad Elonan/Krytan darkskinned male npc with the bald head- Come on really? One guy? Just one? In a city where there is supposed to have a district of people like that? I mean I guess I can see why the npcs look the way they do. One brother had to do all the work. Funny enough my character is darker than he is and its the darkest character in the game…Its interesting to see when Amaare walks through the city and the fact that nobody looks like him, he is nothing more than a darkskinned guy with dreads, but he looks very foreign there- even in his own district…….

What was the reason for this, and is there anything being worked on to bring in the changes that I am talking about?

I’m an rper, my character Amaare Margolis (true last name Margo’laku but he Acalonianized the name to better operate in alot of circles) is considered the owner of The Golden Sun tavern of the Ossan Quarter on the Tarnished Coast server. When I have him behind the bar selling drinks I name them all kinds of lore accurate names.

Our most expensive drink? Orrian Wine, we send people into the ruins to try to retrive it. It costs 2 gold a glass- hell because itskittenhard to obtain. I serve Ebonhawke’s Finest Whiskey, and Sylvari wine straight from the grove- Why? Because people that can cheer the grapes up on a daily basis would make the best wine, that’s just how it is. I serve Vabbian Sweetwine and because of Amaare’s secret contacts with the Order of Whispers (and himself being Sunspear) he is able to get his hands on Vabbian Sweetwine. We have alot of Charr bouncers because we Elonans don’t have as much issue with the Charr as the other districts do. I try to actively play with lore tropes to give players that come there a sense of a world, a sense of hey this is bigger than this.

Sure at the end of the day its nothing, but I figure people walking into an Elonan Tavern for the first time and asking "Hey why is this place called “The Golden Sun” is a fun way to get them to ask questions. Amaare is a scholar and a historian, so he gets to answer questions about Elona all the time. Sometimes we get people who think Elonans must be Arabs because Arabs=desert. Amaare tells them this is not true and tells them of the peoples from Istan (where he is descended from) and Kourna where his sixty five year old grandmother is directly from (she came over fifty years ago- as told by the Divinity’s Reach Tour Guide for the Ossan Quarter). He also gets to tell them about Orr and that is where the "Arab peoples are from, but there aren’t alot of them left because of the sinking of it (though he knows some personally who live in the Ossan Quarter because they can blend in easier there than the other districts- but he isn’t telling you this).

Things like this create a sense of atmosphere, I’ve always tried to reinforce the worlds I rp in, and to have a world where I can play the african and not have to change anything, hey these people are from here, well the impact of that being less than what was originally spoken of is a bit…disappointing, but it will not change the way I rp. Amaare will still have descended from Istan and he will still serve Ebonhawke whiskey and tell the Ascalonian patron visiting that the Charr bouncers here will protect you like everyone else which is to their fullest extent so you better be nice to them because we honor the treaty here and then he gives her a free glass of Sylvari wine and tells her to enjoy her time while at “The Golden Sun”. Yes, that really happened just recently.

1. Divinity’s Reach is a Krytan city. Krytans were originally a Elonan colony, eventually they mixed with the Ascalonians and the race ended up having a Brazilian/Sicilian look to them. When you walk around the city you see very few people that look like this. But the interesting thing is that Queen Jennah the leader of the city looks this way. How interesting that the Queen of the city looks this way but the majority of her people do not.

Kryta was originally an Elonian colony, but do we know if the population of Kryta was ever mostly Elonian? Just because a state was historically under another state’s control doesn’t mean mass migrations occurred. Britain was a Roman colony, but its population was never significantly Latin and remained mostly Celtic until the Viking and Saxon invasions. As for the aesthetics of the Krytans, I’m not seeing that many explicitly pale individuals, though one thing to consider is the fact that Kryta seems to have a temperate, rather than Mediterranean climate.

2.I implore anyone to speak to the Divinity’s Reach Tour guide in the Ossan District. She TELLS YOU that the Elonians arrived en masse fifty years ago to the area fleeing Palawa Joko. Now why do I mention this? Because fifty years is not enough time for a race to become this diluted to the point of hardly seeing them- in their own district at that. Even she herself does not look Elonan in the least, she has a clearly Ascalonian look to her and she even speaks in a way that denotes that her words were supposed to have accents. Instead the voice actor sounds more like a midwest school teacher trying to have a Swahili accent.

You make the mistake of assuming the Ossan district is wholly Elonian in makeup, or that it has always been primarily Ossan. Let’s assume Divinity’s Reach is like New York. Most of the demographics that dominate the neighborhoods now, and even give them their names, were scarce 50 years ago. Washington Heights was once majorly Jewish, now it’s primarily populated by Caribbean Hispanics, for instance. On the other hand, maybe the Ossan district is gentrifying, and its status as an enclave has kept rents down and attracted new demographics, like the Village transforming from a formerly industrial neighborhood to a hotbed of LGBT, alternative and otherwise “artistic” culture.

3. Minister Zamon in the personal story is supposed to be the Minister of the Ossan Quarter. The man looks more Ascalonian (along with his sister) than even Queen Jennah herself who looks more Elonan than him.

Politicians don’t necessarily have to be indicative of their constituents’ ethnic makeup. Minister Wu makes his residence in the Ossan district, too, it’s not like Zamon solely represents the Ossan district, and the Ossan district is not solely Elonan.

4. While walking around the city I saw an npc introducing himself to some women, there was a dark skinned woman amongst the bunch, she looked Elonan but the man doing the introductions claimed he was Elonan (saying that his name was to be pronounced a certain way because of the pronunciations of the Elonan language". The man did not look at all of the race he said his last name was. Now sure, he could have been mixed, but with as few VISIBLE Elonan npcs walking around it would have been quite nice to see this man looking like one.

Yeah it’s not like these unnamed NPCs aren’t randomly generated or anything… Also, the Elonan language would not realistically resemble Swahili. Elona is based off North Africa, so the language would probably resemble Arabic or Berber.

Divinity’s Reach was cool because it was supposed to be the NYC of GW with its own racial districts and such, and when you see the npcs it looks nothing like this at all.

You’ve probably never been to New York and know little of its history.

My job is in Times Square, if you wish you can visit me there. I was born in Harlem on Flower Fifth a hospital that no longer exists. I grew up in Parkchester, which had the first Macy’s in the Bronx. Parkchester is replacing its old Uno’s restaraunt with an Applebees- just found that out yesterday. Now I live near the Clasons Point/Soundview area. I went to Christopher Columbus High School in the Pehlam Parkway section of the Bronx and transferred to A.Phillip Randolph High School in Harlem near City College, I used to take the D train to 145th street to get there. I go to work everyday taking the number 6 train which runs local because it doesn’t run express during the afternoons. I then transfer to the 4 or 5 train on 125th street because they both run express. Then I take the shuttle train from Grand Central to Times Square. Right now the mid track train has a full train advertisement where the entire car (they do this with the shuttle trains) about some new tv show about demons or something, the main female star is blonde and the ad contains alot of 666’s. This train runs on track 3. The train running on track 1 has a full wrap car ad about some sort of search engine, it looks like the design is bookshelves.
Recently there was the Carribbean day Parade out in Brooklyn on Labor day

Every Saturday I play a pnp rpg game two blocks up from 34 street, its right across the street from Duane Reade you can see Macys and you have to pass Victoria’s Secret if you are coming in from east 34th street, its a few steps away from the N,F,D, Q and R trains. The place has two floors is a buffet and has a seating area upstairs. Right next door is a Mcdonalds, and a Pax- the salad place. Often times I head to Jim Hanley’s comics right across the street from the Empire State Building on E33rd street. I buy my pnp games from The Compleat Strategist that I pass by on E33rd street. The owner’s name is Danny.

Speaking of the Village I used to hang there as a teen in Washington Square park, back in the nineties it would be open 24 hours. Remember Weed Day? I do. I would often buy things on w8th street and somtimes go into the Games Workshop on the same street. I sometimes get cheap hotdogs at Greys Papaya on the corner across the street from Barnes and Noble and going north towards fourteenth street but not even two stores away from Grey’s Papaya is a healthfood store called LifeThyme. Fat Beats is also there. My boys used to buy alot of underground stuff from them. I’m not sure if they are still open. They were upstairs.

One of the big issues in the city right now? Mayor Bloombergs attack on large sugary beverages- one could not make that sort of lunacy up.

Come by to say hello.

I agree with this, When I first read of Divinity’s Reach in the Novel I imagined a vibrant city full of people from all around Tyria (That is the World “Tyria” not the continent). When I joined the Game I realised that this was not the case, It is very Ascalonian with little people from other nations.

Oh and by the way Mr. Zakani, have you played the original GW?

Kryta was subtropical…. its lands also had african names, not berberish- again Elona’s influence on Kryta. All of this African names for the areas are gone… I don’t have to guess this or speculate, its there in the game. If you played the first game you would know this.

One would think that the half Luxon half Vabbian would have issue with being the darkest man in Divinity’s Reach. For somone who is running for Minister I see where your loyalties lie friend. (messing with you here, lol)

Elect Amaare Margolis as Minister and find a true representative for the Ossan Quarter, one who cares about his people! Enough to even wonder where they went…..

(Just had to mess with you on that one, lol)

I’m gonna thow in an emphatic SECONDED here; I was also supremely disappointed at the lack of black hairstyles in human creation. That was one of my favorite things about GW1, especially in contrast to Certain Other MMOs. It wouldn’t be too hard to alter, say, that adorable asuran dreadlocks look for human females – change the hairband and you’re set.

I realize you may be wanting to preserve a lot of the Canthan/Elonian stuff for future expansions (may I put in a request for something akin to the Dervish class?) but I think having the respective districts echo their homelands would actually stir interest in those countries, not dampen it.

Guy Bigsock.2136:

I agree with this, When I first read of Divinity’s Reach in the Novel I imagined a vibrant city full of people from all around Tyria (That is the World “Tyria” not the continent). When I joined the Game I realised that this was not the case, It is very Ascalonian with little people from other nations.

Divinity’s Reach was supposed to have neighbourhoods/ghettos of various humans races, ex: Ascalonians, Krytans, Canthans and such, but it hasnt turned out that way in-game.

Though, if you were looking for more of that “World of Tyria” feel, then Lion’s Arch has much more of that, mixing different human races with all of the races of the World of Tyria.

Well I am admittedly a bit poor on the lore for GW2 and did not realize that Divinity’s Reach was supposed to be ethnically diverse. I was under the impression that it was supposed to simply be economically diverse.

Knowing that, I have to agree that it is a bit disappointing to see that influence or diversity (that according to lore, should be there) stripped from the world. However, when they allow us to explore Elona, I will be happy with that if it stays consistent from GW1 (i.e. it hasn’t started raining bleach recently).

Also I will note something interesting:
Obviously important characters do not change appearance, but I do not know who counts as important and who as unimportant (even named NPCs are apparently unimportant). The reason I mention this is because appearances seem to be randomly generated for NPCs across different servers (they will always look the same on the same server, but may change appearance when you go to a different server).

I noticed this most striking feature when I was in Lion’s Arch overflow one day. I was working on my Jewelcrafting and speaking to Isabel, the Master Jeweler. Well I got the option to travel to the main server, so I did. To my surprise, Isabel changed from a white woman with blonde hair to a black woman with black hair (and she is always black on my server, Gandara). So it makes me wonder how the RNG works for randomizing appearances and if, perhaps by chance, you just ended up in a very white version of Divinity’s Reach (and if there isn’t a more black or olive-skinned Divinity’s Reach somewhere).

Well now… this is interesting… I was selling some stuff to a weaponsmith in LA on an overflow when the queue thingy popped up. I transferred over to the main server out of the overflow and I noticed the weaponsmith had turned from a dark-skinned norn to a fair-skinned norn…. I thought my eyes were playing tricks or that it was caused by the night/day lighting difference.

I agree as well. For all the other details they get right, this is one against their lore friendliness.

I agree with the fact that the physical appearances of the humans needs to be a bit more diverse, but my take on Divinity’s Reach was that it was diverse through the continent of Tyria, not the world of Tyria. I definitely assumed that there would be some ethnic diversity in Lions Arch, but with the flooding and being kept from the small amount of seafaring that Tyria did that it wouldn’t be much beyond trade and a bit of pilgrimage here and there. The Architecture in the game has on the other hand shown that some of the cultural structures have mixed .

I think we’ll see the return of the other ethnics when the game expands once again to the other continents, I’ll actually be surprised if they don’t stick to their guns, Arenanet at the very least seems to take pride in what they have created and want to expand and make it better, not to take out such major parts due to inconvenience.

Oh don’t get me wrong I more than understand that alot of these things will be put in for expansions. But I would like to know why Kryta was changed so much. From the look of its peoples to the name of its lands, it has gone to this unique place in an rpg to just another place in Europe. Its Queen looks like a stranger to her people, we don’t get to see the impact of a Rurikton or a Ebonhawke because well…because the visual impact of them doesn’t matter as much.

This was the fantasy mmo that could have made people’s heads turned, the one that could have beat TES to the punch when it came to its diversity in humanity. There were always more human races in GW which served a more world view. Yes, its lovely that we can play Charr, Sylvari and Asura now, but most people are playing this game for its humans-alot of us are playing because of the wide range of humans, something that has not occured before to such a level in a fantasy world. Sure EverQuest 1 had the darkskinned Euridites but they were turned “grey” in EQ2 this was very dissappointing, their uniquenesss was lost all so that players can now just "make a regular human who is darkskinned’. How dissappointing, it always amazes me how certain details of European medival fantasy worlds are done to the letter to echo the time period, but then all humans are thrown under the “human banner” and are from the same place with no differences in culture or anything.

Now the only other mmorpg that came out and is still going on is Vanguard with its multiple human races as well, and the only one that has Asian, Arabic and African groups, but unfortunately the quality of that game is lacking, but the vision was there.

Do I expect full Canthan or Elonan looks, hairstyles, etc day one? Absolutely not, but I do expect a Kryta that looks like the Kryta that was shown to me. Krytan looking nobles, commoners and street rats that look like they are the majority population of a city in their lands. I expect the african names of the different areas like the one area where the Queen Jenna comes from which has a history of Krytan nobility (this area had a strong african name). I do not expect a Ascalonized Divinity’s Reach to the point of Queen Jenna looking like a minority and the complete erasure of her peoples cultural lands and looks which was a beautiful unique thing, something to be respected.

I can honestly say that while I am glad that there is a very forward thinking presence of same sex relationships in the game, that there are more of us interested in celebrating the expansive human races and the thing that made this series something to cheer for starting from the first part of the series. I am sure the other places will be fantastic, but what about Kryta? What about the Kryta that was beautiful for its own merits? What about its unique situation and unique people and its current place in the world, visually and not just told on paper…

I again say the impact of having a lore accurate visually represented Kryta has much more power on the impact of the situation of Ebonhawke in the world than anything else and would attract more attention than anything else. You want people to love the beloved Ascalonians? Fine, then make their situation LOOK and FEEL more unique, make those player go “holy crap what happened to these guys?, they aren’t the number one’s here” This is something that would make players ask questions, want to learn why the “Western Europeans” aren’t the ones who are the dominate humans in the human area and I mean this for the one who are new to the lore, which are alot. Make them ask who this black guy Minister Zamon is and oh he’s from this place called the Ossan Quarter is that where the black people are from? Let me see who they are, oh wow there was a game based on them? Let me go buy it"

Instead the visual is just with some stock npc who is just some sidenote, and his presence as Minister of the Ossan Quarter is lacking visual impact making him less important not only as a character but also to the story of the Ossan Quarter itsself and why its unique. Same goes for Queen Jenna, as far as characters go she looks like a minority in her own city. This is not something I was expecting from Anet at all. It makes her lose importance because nobody that you really care about looks like her, none of the nobles do for one and I cannot understand why this is. Since when was the Queen relegated to the role of Mrs. Obama?

Visuals should have enough impact to make me want to start asking questions and learn more. You can tell a billion stories with pictures as opposed to the hundreds you can tell with words. Besides, most people nowadays don’t read more than what they have to. Make people want to know by what they see, not only by what they are told.

And just to clarify, I don’t mean Mrs Obama as far as role, I mean Mrs Obama as far as her look compared to the peoples of her lands.

If I may, maybe it’s just me but I never noticed, not even in the original game, really. Humans are humans, people are people, and skin tone, body shape, facial structure, and so on pretty much blends together into one big mish mash that is “Human”. Even in the first game and all its expansions, I noticed the buildings and architectural styles more than the tone of some random NPC’s skin.

Chessrook.8643:

If I may, maybe it’s just me but I never noticed, not even in the original game, really. Humans are humans, people are people, and skin tone, body shape, facial structure, and so on pretty much blends together into one big mish mash that is “Human”. Even in the first game and all its expansions, I noticed the buildings and architectural styles more than the tone of some random NPC’s skin.

For some people it is apparantly super important what skin color the NPC’s have.

On that subject, do the Char give a kitten what color fur an other Charr has?

I agree with the OP and most of the posters so far that I am somewhat dismayed by the ‘whiting’ of Kryta. But it’s not just a matter of ethnicity. It feels a bit as if the Ascalonians took over, also, in terms of dress and overall style. Divinity’s Reach and Queensdale and Kessex Hills feel very ‘traditional northern European/British Isles game-setting’ to me, which I associate with Ascalon. In GW1, the Krytans were a dark-skinned people living in a sub-tropical climate with a very distinctive look; I could tell an Ascalonian NPC from a Krytan simply by what clothes they wore. Certainly, over the course of 250 years, some merging of cultures is going to take place, but when you factor in that you also had Elonian influences, and that there are still those of Canthan descent living in Tyria, I would not have necessarily expected to see the Ascalonian culture dominate. But that is how Kryta looks to me; as if the Krytans, Elonians, etc. were largely subsumed by the Ascalonian culture.

Spoon.3826:

For some people it is apparantly super important what skin color the NPC’s have.

On that subject, do the Char give a kitten what color fur an other Charr has?

The thing is, while Charr do have their own racial/cultural dividing lines, we’re not Charr. We’re humans. Humans aren’t an imaginary race.

And it’s not so much about skin color as it’s about ethnic flavors and distinctive cultures.

In the real world, humanity is, ethnically and culturally, wildly diverse. When this diversity is reflected in a fantasy game setting, it adds authenticity and depth to the experience of playing it. It emphasizes immersion. The dilution of this element, which was notably strong in GW1, is what a lot of us are lamenting.

And it isn’t even just about games. The fantasy genre in general has long been overwhelmingly euro-centric and pseudo-medieval. For fans of the genre, the Guild Wars setting was a breath of fresh air.

With the addition of Asuran and Charr aesthetics and culture to the setting’s milieu, GW2 has distanced itself a bit from the pseudo-medieval. I, for one, would like to see a return to the downplay of euro-centricity the franchise once boasted.

I, for one, don’t.

Also, while ‘Humans aren’t an imaginary race’, the cultures in the game are.

Spoon.3826:

I, for one, don’t.

Don’t suppose you’d want to reveal why you prefer the cultural homogenization? How does that benefit the game?

Also, while ‘Humans aren’t an imaginary race’, the cultures in the game are.

The cultures as found in the GW1 setting are very plainly inspired and informed by existing real world cultures, but this is beside the point. Regardless of how conceptualized the cultures are, having a diverse mix of them is where the authenticity comes in vis-a-vis human experience. Redefining humans into a “vanilla” euro-centric monoculture is artificial. It’s also needlessly limiting. Having the other established GW1 cultures more plainly represented in GW2, increasing their visibility, would take nothing away from those who favor the Ascalonian vibe. It would, however, give those of us who’re a bit worn out on euro-centricity something to latch onto and play with. It’d increase accessibility and retention.

I absolutely agree with you about the Elonians. My beaux is of Jamaican descent. His grandparents arrived in the UK almost exactly fifty years ago (it’s a bit more but eh, who is counting) and whilst some of his cousins are very fair, the majority of his family is still unmistakably Jamaican.

Nightfall was an absolute breath of fresh air, it was well thought out and completely respectful. Minor details such as the fact that Vabbians due to their proximity to Orr and the Crystal Sea were more Arabian in their costume and design than those living in Kourna and Istan. Whilst there have been some improvements in the humans of DR since the beta… it’s still a whitewash.

I can see why in the development of five distinct races that the diversity of one could have been sidelined somewhat. But I would love to see one of the very remarkable things about Guild Wars return in Guild Wars 2.

“I, for one, don’t.”

I would also like to know why you feel this way. There is Rurikton, there is Ebonhawke, and even the small (but very Ascalonian) Ascalonian settlement in the Gendarran Fields so its not like you are going to be losing out on any factor of eurocentricity.
Also I would care to ask have you played the original game? You do understand that the breath of the human cultures in the first GW was one of the things that make it not WoW right?

*Wonders when a true Krytan area/town will be put in

Thank you Anet for changing the look of the Ossan Quarter DR tour guide. Its really appreciated. I hope you guys get some voice appropriate voice actors as well in the future.

I really hope they can fix them. I was saded when I got in game first time to check the Elona side in DR. I hope by the time we get to elona itself, we will get the same feeling like the way GW1 nightfall was.

Likewise, I was a bit surprised to see that many Ascalonians in DR. I would expect an a mixture of Ascalonians and Elonians followed by Canthans who numbered the least.

I have to say, Olithia, I am very impressed with your all-around knowledge and interest in the lore and cultures in-game. I am new to the GW universe; I never played GW1 although it was F2P because I was so involved in WoW. I loved the WoW lore and that’s what made the game great for me. I am loving GW2 as well and agree, it’s a fantastic game.

I’m having fun talking to NPC’s and questing all over and I did remember them saying this was the same setting as GW1, just in the future. Thanks to this thread I will probably be noticing a lot of things I hadn’t before, and that’s great.

Here’s a question. I know GW1 is still active. Is it worth picking it up and the expansions now or in the near future or do you think at this point it would just be overwhelming? If what you say is true and the cultures in the original are clearly portrayed then it sounds like I have more lore to jump into.

GW1 gives fantastic background to GW2 and it makes traveling though the GW2 Tyria very nostalgic in both a happy and sometimes a bit sad way. The lore is deep and they did a good job of establishing it in the first game.

It does play as a very different game though. Its much more an instanced squad based game than the single character set up GW1 has, particularly in the later content with the inclusion of hero NPCs, who were customisable NPCs you had as squadmates for yoru character. Its also quite a large game with many areas off the main plotline’s path.

I encourage you to give it a go though. Its pretty cheap (about $20 for the three first parts) so if it doesnt fit its not a huge investment loss. Personally I started playing it for the Hall of Monuments and fell in love with the game.

Hall of Monuments was another incentive to play. I was also interested in Ritualists and Dervishes. I believe I played a demo version once…. I remember the instanced zones and the point-and-click movement style, and most of all, the lack of jumping. I think I will give it a shot. Thanks for the info!

You can disable the point and click movement if you prefer keyboard movement. Yeah there is no jumping which sometimes means having to take long run arounds.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Kryta
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/King_Doric

From these two simple official wiki pages from the original game we can see a number of things dispelling this push to claim that Kryta should be another pseudo-african region.

As far as town, outpost, and explorable area names go, nothing in Kryta resembles Elonian naming schemes. As far as a “white-washing” goes, nothing has been done from the original game. Names like “Beetletun” “Sanctum Cay” “Bergen Hotsprings”, and “Kessex Peaks” are common place in Kryta’s geographic naming scheme.

Yes, Kryta was an Elonian settlement in 300 AE, but won its independence again less than 60 years later. With the native Krytan royalty having names like “King Doric”, “Queen Salma”, and let us not forget our favorite “Mad King Thorn”, they are a far cry from anything of Elonian, or your African push for dominance in Kryta.

Furthermore, Vabbi, where the Ossan royal family hails from is of fairly light complexion with culture resembling middle eastern peoples mostly (Desert, mystic culture sects(see what a Dervish is in real life), Djins/Djinies etc.), not the super dark complexion seen in Istan.

I honestly don’t understand why so many of you are acting like a crime against humanity has been made with keeping Kryta much as it was in Guild Wars 1. For you lore junkies out there, I agree that deeper lore would be good; I for one would like some side quests or hearts/seasonal events delving deeper on letting us explore the history of the the Krytan Royal family.

Guild Wars 2 opens in Tyria, like the original game, where castles, knights, feudalism and “The Great White Scapegoat” was prevalent. When we go to Cantha, Asian themed ethnicities will be more common, with the pseudo-native-American Luxons and German inspired Kurziks. When we travel back to Elona, the dark Istani’s, Arab themed Vabbians, and transitional Kournans will be most common.

Just like in real life, human is human, please quit making a big stink about skin color in a video game, we all have to deal with people making it an issue in our daily lives too much as it is.

Be patient, we will get to see more human cultural and ethnic diversity when the time is right. For now, enjoy the Krytans and Ascalonians that are most common on the continent of Tyria.

Oh yeah, let’s not forget one of the most famous Krytan natives of all time, Saul D’Alessio; yeah that’s not a European sounding name or Latin inspired character model at all, he looks more like an African man to me… http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/File:%22Saul%22_concept_art.jpg

This is what Krytans looked like in Guild Wars 1:

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Krytan
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Evennia
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Durmand
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Salma

While they may not be African, they clearly are not white.

African push for dominance? Dominance over what, exactly?

The point was that the OP would like to see some of the same diversity of culture that was portrayed in the first game. They didn’t say they wanted Divinity’s Reach to be Africa.

I always just figured that a massive amount of the original Krytan make-up were killed during the tsunami event when Zhaitan rose and Lion’s Arch was suddenly destroyed. The Ascalonian settlement was luckily far to the north to avoid suffering this catastrophe as well. When Divinity’s Reach was established, there probably was more Ascalonian settlers then native Krytans at that point. Is this a reasonable possibility?

I never played GW1, but this issue has come up before and I definitely share the disappointment with it. The industry as a whole definitely has diversity issues, it would have been sweet to see this game create a counterpoint.

As for who cares? Sorry, but that statement comes across as very ignorant. People who have the huge privilege of being seen as “the norm” in our society and the gaming industry obviously don’t need to care because they’re always catered to. If you’re not a straight white man, you’re not so lucky. And positive role models can be incredibly important for one’s identity and self-esteem.

I’m about as pasty European as they come, and I’d still happily root for another ethnicity being the majority and the “default” for once. It’s one of the reasons why Jade Empire, an older Bioware title, is still so memorable to me.

So yes, please, have the humans reflect their own lore better. And while we’re at it, more non-Caucasian presets and customization options would be good too.

@Chadramar
Not sure why one would like to see more of his own nationality than others; I enjoyed NF more than the previous titles as far as the setting and population go, and I’m white.
Well if I have to go in details, I have red hair, blue eyes and I’m Italian-Caymanian so I don’t believe any game ever had a popoulation – or even one character that looked remotely like me, or had a remotely similar nationality.

I don’t think being seen as the norm, aka just another dark-haired white clone, is a privilege, being different is.
I could go on for months telling you how being different gave me large advantages in all fields of life, I touched women and places the common white boy can only dream of.
Actually, most original people like me went very far with their lives too, and I’m talking of Africans and Russians.

I also don’t think that one should find his identity and self-esteem on video games.
If that was the case Arabians would be completely lost as every FPS out there is Americans killing them.

I don’t really feel it’s healthy to use a game as own’s source of security or as a world where you feel accepted etc, it’s an illusion.
The best way to deal with diversity is accept it as a gift instead of a curse.

I think you’re misreading me. I agree that diversity is a gift. But many people don’t, and they can make life difficult or even utter hell for those who are “different” — and society still often turns a blind eye or blames the victim. Of course there’s progress in various areas of diversity/representation/social justice, but it also comes with frequent ugly backlashing.

And not everyone who is “different” is lucky enough to have a supportive family or other RL environment. Whether you can imagine it or call it healthy or not, my personal experience as well as what I heard from many other people is that if you don’t have any support IRL, especially as a little kid, then it can be a tremendous relief when at least you can find a fictional character who is “like you” and represented in a positive light.

At any rate, this is getting political. I merely wanted to say that those who say “who cares?” to any diversity issue are frequently blind to their own privilege of not having to care because they are already catered to by default. A lack of empathy, basically.

It may just be my stubbornness, but I grew up different but didn’t care. If others have a problem with it, that’s THEIR problem, not mine.

I also play characters that look ABSOLUTELY NOTHING like me and do not seek out characters who are “like me,” especially in looks.

To me, it seems silly.

That’s your prerogative. Just please try to have some empathy for and don’t insult people for whom to matters a great deal to see “someone like them” represented in a game/story for once, and represented positively, instead of having their humanity and their very existence made fun of, stereotyped, spat on or outright erased time and time and time again — both IRL and in entertainment.

Furthermore, Vabbi, where the Ossan royal family hails from is of fairly light complexion with culture resembling middle eastern peoples mostly (Desert, mystic culture sects(see what a Dervish is in real life), Djins/Djinies etc.), not the super dark complexion seen in Istan.

Lightskin?
The Vabbian princes disagree withyou
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Princes_of_Vabbi

As do these Vabbian citizens
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Norgu
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Korvus

Norgu has an afro and large lips, Korvus, Mehtu and the other two kings are of chocolate complexion, and while two of them look ancient Egyptian, we all know that ancient Egyptians were africans not arabs just like those two. Should I put up pics of those as well?

Culture and looks are two different things, the races in guild wars are not exactly as they are in rl. The Luxons for example have alot of greek influences but they are asians in looks. The Kurzick also have alot of German influences but they are also asian looking.

The pictures clearly show this. And I am sure you saw the movie 300, when it came to the looks of the Persians. There were “africans” who lived in the Persian empire. So while they dressed Persian in style and had Persian influence they were indeed African.

I myself am African looking but American in culture, is this hard to imagine?

And please show me these pics of these lighter Elonians, I would love to see them.

Several of the names of old Kryta’s lands were african sounding, it was also in the Maguuma jungle, the lands that Kryta’s nobility are from is also african named. When I find it I shall post it. I recommend picking up the original GW Prophecies.

Here are my sources. pics included
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Kryta
Kryta was the third and last human kingdom to be established in Tyria. Originally a colony of Elona, it was established in 300 AE, it gained its independence in 358 AE. The kingdom’s royal family are descendants of King Doric, however it is not know how far Doric’s lineage goes into the Krytan royalty. There have been few notable members of this royalty, outside the last king, King Jadon, the only known monarch is Mad King Thorn. The royal bloodline, were buried in the Mausoleum that is now guarded by the undead dragon, Rotscale.

Kryta is home to many important landmarks, such as the Wizard’s Tower and the Temple of the Ages. It is also the origin of the now-mysterious Druids, former Krytans who left into the Maguuma Jungle to the west long ago.

And Kahnya is it so wrong for me to ask for the same things that was in Guild Wars part 1? Its no different from changing Captain America’s shield to a black one made of diamond or saying that Hobbits are now tall skinny hairless people with purple skin.

So because you don’t care lore should be changed? What about those of us who saw it as a breath of fresh air and are only here because of it and wanted to support Anet because of their efforts, showing them that what they did was not only noticed but appeciated?

I bought two copies of this game and had no problem with it just because of what Anet did with Nightfall. Any company that takes some of us in mind deserves double my money and I would think nothing of buying a third copy if everything that I loved was to make a return.

I suggest those who are coming in to do their research first, at least provide a educated reason why you are making your comments besides “I don’t care” or why does it matter.

I am speaking about consistently in lore here first and foremost. I do not see why that is hard to understand.

And Kahnya and Red (had to edit post) please, personal attacks are not necessary. You don’t like the topic and don’t care then you don’t have to post. But taking this to “oh you must be damaged as a child” is laughable at best and reaching at most. Lets not take this to where it isn’t. I made no personal attacks against anyone. If you cannot back up your reasons with facts then you have nothing to offer the conversation. It merely sounds like you are offended that I bring up something like this, and I don’t understand why or how it affects you personally enough to start making such accusations.

But I am willing to hear why such is the case.

And Chadramar thank you, I appreciate your post. You are right on the money. Nightfall was a tasteful representation covering people that are not often covered in videogames. Just to give an example of the impact of such a thing.

The other day I was rping at the place my character runs in game, the tavern in the Ossan Quarter that I named The Golden Sun. There was another player in there playing a darkskinned character. I got a whisper from him upon seeing my character saying “black people are rare in this game”. He did not play GW1, I gave him the lore and told him about the Ossan Quarter and about Elona. I told him that if there is any game that does black people right its Guild Wars. -That- is why this post matters, because here you had a player playing a “black character” who was standing in the “Little Africa” area of town and didn’t even know it. When I told him about it and where we were he send me back a smile in a whisper.

I get whispers all the time from those telling me how cool Amaare is, even whispers telling me that he is the coolest black character they’ve ever seen. Now think about that for a second…..

Those moments are big for some of us. I remember the first time I saw the Eurdites in Everquest and the Redguard in TES, I smiled. It had nothing to do with me trying to fix some deep seated childhood issue. It had to do with me going “Holy kitten, the black people are f’n cool here, I am going to give this company my money forever”.

I was so hurt when Sony took away the formerly african looking Eurudites in EQ2 that I refused to play it.
That is why I get annoyed with the lack of the look of the people in the district. Or why I feel like the opportunity with Zamon was lost. Here you have COMPELLING opportunities for people to say “whoa perhaps I should pick up that Nightfall game to learn all of this, this is really cool”. You can tell strong stories in these districts! Not just Ebonhawke, but Rurikton, The Ossan Quarter and hell even The Collapse! Take advantage of these! The fantastic lore that was established with the diversity in the first game can be reestablished here! Show people HEY, this is why OUR humans are the kittening kitten! Don’t make them wait for expansions, your human city is supposed to be super diverse, then show it! Put some stuff there and stories there that really make those districts stand out individually in their own right! Lip service does nothing at the end of the day. If I can’t see it in front of me it doesn’t matter at all!

I love my character being the one who knows things about Elona, I love for him to be the one that is being regarded as the go to guy about Elona from the other Elonan players.

Sure it isn’t a big deal to many of you, when you aren’t affected by it you don’t think about it because YOU are catered to by DEFAULT. You don’t have to worry about seeing the one character that resembles you and you facepalm because he or she is an idiot/coward/brute or just plain kitten. You start to wonder, does everyone think of us like this?

A friend of mine asked me once, why do you care about this so much? I asked him, if you had a son who plays videogames and he saw the one character that looked like him in a game act like a slobbering idiot or some poorly made stereotype and he asked you why that character was like that daddy what would you tell him?

And he at that point understood…..

Think I’m reaching? Leroy Jenkins anyone?

So, wait . . . “To me, it seems silly” (the only part of my post that I could see as even close to a personal attack . . . if by “close,” I mean just within ICBM range) is now a personal attack, equated to accusations of “being damaged as a child”? Well, actually the closest to being a personal attack was the reference to my own stubbornness, but that would be one against myself.

By the way, I am descended from Oneida Indians, the closest representation in gaming of them is the Iroquois of Civ games (which is more generic North American Indian than Iroquois specifically, anyway). At least, I can’t think of another (a lot for tribes of the Great Plains and Southwest Desert, but none of the Iroquois Confederacy). So, you may want to stop the broad generalizations of your detractors. (oh, and in Civ games, I typically played Spain and Russia, neither of which I have ancestry from, due to their bonuses)

Forgive me Kahnya, I was mainly addressing Red.

If you think its silly then you are entitled to your opinion. The player who addressed me who was happy to see my character tells me it isn’t.

Red, Red hair and blue eyes huh, Italian and Cayman, nobody looking like you right?
Let me introduce you to Queen Salma
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Salma

Thank you, Olithia.

btw, my main character is a white skin (as in actually white, not “of European descent” white) and white hair, tough-as-nails, heavy-drinking giant of a Norn woman.

Now that I’ve stated my opinion on the matter, I will step aside and let the debate continue.

I came to this game knowing nothing of the previous lore, and while I’m no lorehound, I try to pay attention as I go. The existence of deep lore enhances the gameplay and story-telling.

I honestly did not know that Divinity’s Reach was supposed to be multi-cultural. I wandered around, impressed by the size of the place, but I would not have known about different races in different quarters had I not read this forum post.

During character creation, it would be cool if after you selected human, you could then select a race of human. Maybe this already exists. I don’t know because my character is Norn. I actually chose him because I wanted a warrior and I knew nothing of the lore to base a human selection appearance.

Maybe Ascalonians have infiltrated and dominated DR somehow?

I do think that NPCs and characters that have differing appearances makes things more interesting. I also wonder if NPC appearances might be based off of the majority of PCs created on a specific world, since specific NPCs apparently look different depending on the world you’re on.