Guild Wars 2

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I just thought I’d make this post, since this change doesn’t appear to have been given the same scrutiny as the core systems changes, yet it’s still a change that will affect new players significantly.

They rearranged the order in which we do the personal story quests, so now we do the Source of Orr as part of chapter 7, then chapter 8 is spent with the Zhaitan threat directly. The problem with this is that it completely breaks much of the continuity.
Think about ‘Through the Looking Glass’, where we learn that there is more than one Eye of Zhaitan and begin to speculate about it with the NPCs. Now, that quest comes after we defeat the Sovereign Eye of Zhaitan. Now, the quest where we discover that there are Eyes and Mouths of Zhaitan – Temple of the Forgotten God – comes after we kill the Sovereign Eye.

Also, the new quest order completely breaks the entire thematic flow of the story. Previously the story went along as we advanced further into Orr in the open world. For once the open world event storylines and PS storylines actually tied together in a sensible way, and as you got further into the story you started to go further and further away from Fort Trinity and the Straits of Devastation until you were in Malchor’s Leap and then the Cursed Shore. Now, you go from the Battle of Fort Trinity and get sent all around Orr at the whims of the new quest order. It breaks the flow and destroys the narrative.

Also, it appears that ArenaNet have outright removed the ‘greatest fears’ portions of the story entirely. You know the parts of the story with Tonn/Apatia etc? Gone entirely. Cut out for no good reason.

I mean, just… why? What possessed ArenaNet to butcher the flow of the story like this? This is worse than what George Lucas did to Star Wars – he made edits to it, but he didn’t go around rearranging the core plot points in this way. I just… I’m at a loss for words.

I realise people on this subreddit were never particularly fond of the last few chapters of the personal story to begin with, but I don’t see how completely destroying the continuity, pacing and just general narrative of it was a good idea in any regard.

Can we get an explanation as to why parts of the PS have been cut and why other parts have been re-arranged into an order that no longer makes sense from a continuity perspective?

Hmm they didn’t mention the changes at all, maybe it’s a bug? It could be that they changed something about those quests that caused them to disappear. That doesn’t explain the rotation of the others ones though.

Doubt it’s a bug. They just simply give a kitten about their stories.

I am sad to see that gone too.
However i am really annoyed by the new direction myself. This is not helping new players or veterans.
In my opinion it is totaly butchering and devalueing the whole experience.

The old system was fine, because you had always something to do and it helped you level.
Now you get it in nice fitting chunks, which is nice theoreticaly, but you have to bite through 10 levels first.

Also, did anyone think before reworking the storylines? Did they make any changes so they make any sense? I heard about giant plot holes thanks to the change (like encountering the eye of zaithan or the mouth before we are supposed to meet them) and i can only shake my head… I want to know who is responsible for this desaster and just shake my head in front of him/her…

I am actually not mad, just tired and disapointed.

Well you see, they are just making their policy about lore consistent across the board. Nothing from out of game sources is lore, and now nothing in game is lore. Expect full deletion of the personal story by next feature patch.

Oh wow, really? Wow… I don’t even know what to say. I’m really disappointed.

first of all this is onyl in the journal and nobody seems to have palyed the part yet. lets jsut wait on this one but let anet knows if it stinks

actually the apita and greatest fear part is just summed up in three sentences. they are still in the journal jsut not fleshed out enough

ShroomOneUp.6913:

actually the apita and greatest fear part is just summed up in three sentences. they are still in the journal jsut not fleshed out enough

I’m sorry but this is not true. I just logged into my main who did the “dishonored by allies” choice in the “fear” part and nothing is mentioned about that.

Straylight.7529:

ShroomOneUp.6913:

actually the apita and greatest fear part is just summed up in three sentences. they are still in the journal jsut not fleshed out enough

I’m sorry but this is not true. I just logged into my main who did the “dishonored by allies” choice in the “fear” part and nothing is mentioned about that.

read the last sentences of forging the pact and battle of fort trinity. those are the fear missions.

ShroomOneUp.6913:

read the last sentences of forging the pact and battle of fort trinity. those are the fear missions.

You talking about mounting a rescue mission?

That’s referring to going into the mines and saving Kekt. All part of Forging the Pact. And unchanged too.

They removed them, downright.

Which is stupid since they’re pretty kitten important to the plot! Especially Apatia’s plot, but Tonn and the mesmer forces of Zhaitan too.

But what makes less sense is how they put the fight with the Sovereign Eye of Zhaitan and the revelation that the Eyes are royalty before we learn that there’s even more than one Eye!

This is utter idiocy and I’d have to go with Eluviete. They obviously stopped giving a kitten about the story.

ShroomOneUp.6913:

Straylight.7529:

ShroomOneUp.6913:

actually the apita and greatest fear part is just summed up in three sentences. they are still in the journal jsut not fleshed out enough

I’m sorry but this is not true. I just logged into my main who did the “dishonored by allies” choice in the “fear” part and nothing is mentioned about that.

read the last sentences of forging the pact and battle of fort trinity. those are the fear missions.

I stand corrected.

There is indeed a sentence at the end of “Forging the Pact” that hints at the “fear” part (in my case: dishonored by allies)

It reads: The pact’s campaign plans are broad and complicated, so Trahearne asked me to make sure a key element of that campaign is ready for the rigors of war.

If this means the “fear” storyline is still ingame, I’d be extremely happy. Hope to see a definitive confirmation by some player who shares his feedback on the forums.

The reorder of the story makes no sense… now we forge into Orr to cleanse it… then go back and do the story missions where we forge into Orr…

Have they at least explained why they thought this was a good idea?

I think this may be the first time I’ve actually been upset with a change to this game. The loss of keyfarming is disappointing, but I can shrug it off. I’m not upset with anything else about this feature patch. It may not be as big as the last one, but it’s enough for me.
But this? This is abhorrent. I’m glad I’ve already done the personal story three times and already experienced all three different fears, but I want to experience that again on my other characters, and I want everyone who hasn’t done them yet to do it as well.

This is like how Fox handled Firefly. Bad ANet. No.

Crixler.2857:

I’m glad I’ve already done the personal story three times and already experienced all three different fears, but I want to experience that again on my other characters, and I want everyone who hasn’t done them yet to do it as well.

This. These personal story changes are probably the worst part of this patch.

Apatia. Tonn. Even Syska/Labwan.

Never forget.

Because ArenaNet’s blundering has managed to kill them a second time, by removing them flat out. Never again…

narwhalsbend.7059:

Crixler.2857:

I’m glad I’ve already done the personal story three times and already experienced all three different fears, but I want to experience that again on my other characters, and I want everyone who hasn’t done them yet to do it as well.

This. These personal story changes are probably the worst part of this patch.

This and the stupid level gating.

My thief is currently working on the fears-storyline and finished “Striking Off the Chains” yesterday, so it´s still possible to do it. But I also noticed that there is no mention of those quests in the story tab, she only has “Forging the pact” mentioned.

Rhodonita.6831:

My thief is currently working on the fears-storyline and finished “Striking Off the Chains” yesterday, so it´s still possible to do it. But I also noticed that there is no mention of those quests in the story tab, she only has “Forging the pact” mentioned.

Jeffrey Vaughn confirmed on the forums that if you were already on those parts of the story before the patch you are able to finish them – they’ve been removed from the sequence of story quests for any new players or people not there yet. They are also deleted from the journal.

Y’know, I could live with the removal of the greatest fears sections of the story. I’d mourn them, they were really good, but I could perhaps live with it. However, the nonsense rearrangement of the Orr storyline is absolutely abhorrent and we must not stop complaining until ArenaNet fix it. Whatever possessed them to put the climactic penultimate part of the Orr story arc at the start and butcher the story in the process, I have absolutely no clue, and new players are going to miss out on what was actually (in my opinion) quite a beautiful and engaging story on launch. (I know, liking the PS isn’t the most popular opinion, but whatever anyone thinks of the PS, these changes have objectively made it worse).

…
They removed the one part of the entire personal story where your choice, the player choice, about something as personal as the character’s greatest fear, could actually lead to a somewhat cathartic and definetly character-developing story-arc…?

…

I have nothing. Im at a loss of words.

lakdav.3694:

…
They removed the one part of the entire personal story where your choice, the player choice, about something as personal as the character’s greatest fear, could actually lead to a somewhat cathartic and definetly character-developing story-arc…?
I have nothing. Im at a loss of words.

Feelings and emotions were too confusing and overwhelming for players. Now you can continue to coldly kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, etc.

RabidCoqui.1983:

The reorder of the story makes no sense… now we forge into Orr to cleanse it… then go back and do the story missions where we forge into Orr…

Have they at least explained why they thought this was a good idea?

Well it seems they wanted to logically break up the story in chunks. The reordering was to ensure logical consistency?! I don’t know I kinda thought they’d just arbitrarily divide the story into chunks without swapping and reorganising which to me would have made more sense.

narwhalsbend.7059:

Crixler.2857:

I’m glad I’ve already done the personal story three times and already experienced all three different fears, but I want to experience that again on my other characters, and I want everyone who hasn’t done them yet to do it as well.

This. These personal story changes are probably the worst part of this patch.

I haven’t been back to the General Discussion section because… games are suppose to be fun right? But I’m pretty sure there’s a lot of people there that would disagree regarding what was the worst part :P

narwhalsbend.7059:

lakdav.3694:

…
They removed the one part of the entire personal story where your choice, the player choice, about something as personal as the character’s greatest fear, could actually lead to a somewhat cathartic and definetly character-developing story-arc…?
I have nothing. Im at a loss of words.

Feelings and emotions were too confusing and overwhelming for players. Now you can continue to coldly kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, etc.

I really would like a dev to weigh in one this and explain why. Not really too angry, since I’ve already played it (although I guess sad that I can’t play it again), but I’m highly curious about the logic behind the decision.

Hmmm…. I have gone past their questlines in order to confirm these myself. But if this is the case, I am curious as to why they would have them removed. They never mentioned anything in their preview posts nor in their patch notes. I was under the impression that there would be rearrangements here and there but the Personal Story would remain intact. I don’t know if this is intentional as they never mentioned this at all.

The logic behind the decision is fairly simple. Its their story. Not yours. Check that part of from the Manifesto too.

You think the character that you play is your character? No, its theirs. You just level it like a professional korean game-character leveler. You just do it without pay. Gameplay is your reward, and actually gameplay is the only thing that keeps me anywhere near this game anymore.

According to the Patch Notes:

Personal story steps have been more clearly broken up into chapters that unlock every 10 levels so that each chapter can be played through immediately once it’s unlocked. Players that were already partway through a chapter may find themselves underleveled for any of the story chapters or overleveled for some of the chapter 7 and 8 steps that have moved.

By this logic, the PS should have been kept intact save for a couple of rearrangements here and there , in other words, every chapter available SHOULD be there. I’d like to say that this is something Arenanet may need to fix or if they intend to keep it this way, an explanation from their own words rather than conjecture from doomsayers would be welcome.

EDIT: I also checked the Chapter Focus, and yet it never mentions any specific deletions, cementing my idea that if it was deleting then it wasn’t on purpose (I’d like to think so)

Honestly, yeah, some of the gating they fully admitted they plan on fixing, and it was a bug, at least for experienced players. But I am actually really annoyed about the Fears living story part, it was a really good part, and arguably my friends favorite part of it.

Dunno if Anet is gonna read it, but I’d love them to put it back in,

Looking back at this, how many players have actually experienced this issue with Fears. I have yet to see substantial evidence, be it a screenshot pic or a video on Youtube supporting this claim. All I could ever get for is the word of a Reddit user, I could try it out for myself but godkitten I hate having to do several levels just to get to that part of the game.

They need to change npcs and dialogues if they want to keep the current order and have it make sense.
Thanks to the changes I don´t know that npc I’m talking with or any Apatia and I also didn’t visit Abaddon’s Temple.

on my last play through pre patch one of my story options must of taken me down a differant path because i didnt experiance the orb story at all. but yes i agreee the ps was better the way it was before the patch as it now makes no sense!

I truly hope they suddenly explained this as “bugged” even though it appears that this was an intentional attack on something that works and didn’t need to be “made better.”

Because this is NOT better. This is taking a story that was interesting and fun AND which let you care about characters who were NOT Trahearne while allowing the player to feel grief at events he or she could not control. It was an important step in showing that the player can’t be all powerful or everywhere at once. As well as allowing you the CHOICE of which path to go.

I am lucky that I managed to play through 3 characters and I wish I had time to play through more… but now I don’t know if I want to. I think I’ll wait a little and see if they revert and put this back in.

It does feels like some poor attempt to ready the player story to be made replayable… but only after taking what was fun and what people wanted to reexperience and play OUT OF IT first.

The only reason I can even come up with on the removal of the Apatia story is some Chinese censorship issue that required the series to be completely removed from the code so it could not even be datamined. Whether it’s the idea of doing something that caused some one to be incarcerated and killed somehow being subversive to the Chinese government, or some social taboo that we do not understand. I have actually done this story step a few times because I thought it was actually one of the more compelling story ideas in the game. My two coppers on this. I hope it can come back…it made my characters who they are…

Edited for additional information:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Apatia

“The word “apatia” appears in Portuguese, Esperanto, Finnish, Italian, and Polish with the meaning of “apathy.”

There’s the possible source of the problem. By naming her apathy that gives the powers that be in the Chinese government a reason to strike the story from the game. This can be construed as a call to rise up against the government….yes it seems odd, but if you look at it from the idea of a cautionary tale against apathy, the it truly becomes a call to act against repression.

Roybe.5896:

The only reason I can even come up with on the removal of the Apatia story is some Chinese censorship issue that required the series to be completely removed from the code so it could not even be datamined. Whether it’s the idea of doing something that caused some one to be incarcerated and killed somehow being subversive to the Chinese government, or some social taboo that we do not understand. I have actually done this story step a few times because I thought it was actually one of the more compelling story ideas in the game. My two coppers on this. I hope it can come back…it made my characters who they are…

Edited for additional information:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Apatia

“The word “apatia” appears in Portuguese, Esperanto, Finnish, Italian, and Polish with the meaning of “apathy.”

There’s the possible source of the problem. By naming her apathy that gives the powers that be in the Chinese government a reason to strike the story from the game. This can be construed as a call to rise up against the government….yes it seems odd, but if you look at it from the idea of a cautionary tale against apathy, the it truly becomes a call to act against repression.

Even if I could believe Anet would actually subordinate the gaming community of the entire world to one kittenty government, this doesn’t explain the other two branches, which are equally bugged/inaccessible. So, nope.

Business is business. NCSoft wants this game in China, China says no to Apatia, APatia is gone. I can only conjecture on why it was completely removed from the code. Datamining is the only thing that makes sense.

As far as the changes to the Orrian Storyline, Arenanet has claimed to move because of level issues. That was from the 3 week lead up. The sneak removal of content has to do with the Chinese release. You can deny this, but in doing so I would like another theory as to why it was released in this state. Until we hear from someone internal, it makes a lot of sense.

But 1) it’s still in there, if you had started that story arc before the update, you can still play those missions 2) not only Apatia is gone! What about the other two branches? Unfortunately one can’t really come up with any sane reasons as to why one of the most important points of character development would be taken out. There are none, period. That is why we would really want to see Anet explain this.

So the other two branches are at the same level are gone, too? I agree on them explaining. I just can’t see them deleting this content for any other reason than they were forced to.

As for the Orrian content we were warned on what they were doing and why…again I am not happy about the shifting and the jarring continuity issue.

The only other thing I wonder about is players overall completion rate of these story lines. If completion was negligible, maybe they made these changes to streamline and shorten the personal story to get people to the end of the story quicker so that the players can get into the Living Story content easier/quicker…particularly if they are going to remove/change most of the Orrian countryside at some future point…I mean Zhaitan is dead right? Why are there still undead floating around the area. Trahearne cleansed Orr Right? Where’s the trees and plants?

At this point all I can do is SMH and ride the train to the next station.

The messed up continuity is just ridiculous and cannot work in the long run. It’s not something to be unhappy about, it cannot remain that way. Who would want to play a game that doesn’t make sense? They might as well take out Orr in its entirety. Or the entire PS from the Orders onward. I guess I could be persuaded to live with the changed order if the missions themselves were tweaked to fit this new continuity, however, taking out the Greatest Fear missions would even so be unwarranted.

If they wanted people to get to LS quicker they could have done other things. Like, upscale people in Dry Top and LS missions, you know. Or something. It’s not a valid excuse.

I would actually be interested in seeing a cleansed version of Orr as well. I guess they could keep infected Orr in missions only? I kind of wondered why LA also became ruined in the PS missions taking place there, when the events of the LS have clearly taken place after Zhaitan’s defeat. Anyway, cleaning up Orr as a map still does not warrant or in any way relate to scrambling up the events leading to its cleansing, either.

Metrics must have told them that their players aren’t paying any attention to the PS. So why bother with continuity when they can just remove things and only a small minority of players will even care to complain about it ?

Roybe.5896:

The only reason I can even come up with on the removal of the Apatia story is some Chinese censorship issue that required the series to be completely removed from the code so it could not even be datamined. Whether it’s the idea of doing something that caused some one to be incarcerated and killed somehow being subversive to the Chinese government, or some social taboo that we do not understand. I have actually done this story step a few times because I thought it was actually one of the more compelling story ideas in the game. My two coppers on this. I hope it can come back…it made my characters who they are…

Edited for additional information:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Apatia

“The word “apatia” appears in Portuguese, Esperanto, Finnish, Italian, and Polish with the meaning of “apathy.”

There’s the possible source of the problem. By naming her apathy that gives the powers that be in the Chinese government a reason to strike the story from the game. This can be construed as a call to rise up against the government….yes it seems odd, but if you look at it from the idea of a cautionary tale against apathy, the it truly becomes a call to act against repression.

The China client is completely different from our own. The only point of conformity between China and NA/EU dat files is just for ease of updates, but there’s a lot of things that aren’t shared – such as VIP mode (trust me, you don’t even want to hear what that bullkitten is about).

Furthermore, the content is still in the dat. The characters who are on Forging the Pact to the step prior to Temple of the Forgotten God will be able to complete chapter 7 in its original form. ArenaNet cannot remove it without forcing players forward/backwards – which given that they didn’t do such, they won’t – or no character in the entire playerbase is at said chapter in its original form.

So removing it from playability to remove it from the China’s dat file makes no sense.

RedStar.4218:

Metrics must have told them that their players aren’t paying any attention to the PS. So why bother with continuity when they can just remove things and only a small minority of players will even care to complain about it ?

Well, this for the most part is true, in that most players I’ve talked to don’t complete the PS more than 3 times – some not even more than once. This is due to all the bugs, bad voice acting, short-but-many instances, and so forth. And usually a problem of the earlier steps, not the latter.

In all honesty, I can only see them messing with Chapter 8 because of the Trahearne-took-over-my-story hate (which this does not fix) and removed Chapter 7 because…. maybe China? I honestly don’t know. I cannot fathom why they’d do such.

Prior to the NPE patch going live, all of my characters were at the start of what I now presume is Chapter 7 (meet Trahearne in Concordia to witness the start of the Pact). From what I’ve heard, this is the story step that should include Apatia and the related story steps.

I go through the PS very slowly (basically only when it shows up in the Daily), but I’ll report back on my findings once I’ve actually been through it.

RedStar.4218:

Metrics must have told them that their players aren’t paying any attention to the PS. So why bother with continuity when they can just remove things and only a small minority of players will even care to complain about it ?

Okay, and in what way is it beneficial to have 4 missions less or to rearrange it if players “don’t care” anyway? Were they just waiting for a chance to screw it up because the new team hates the core story? Was a coherent story costing extra money?

No, it makes no sense. I’m starting to have a half-hunch we’re still not getting any info on this because they cannot come up with a plausible explanation for such a kittenty decision.

Good lord, people, stop speculating on crazy political conspiracies. Chinese government is run by a bunch of old people who never touched a video game in their lives (and I mean this quite literally) and thus censor things in a seemingly erratic fashion because even they have no idea what they’re doing.

Imagine what it’s like if Jack Thompson was the president.

As Hanlon’s Razor says: “Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.”

Zaxares.5419:

Prior to the NPE patch going live, all of my characters were at the start of what I now presume is Chapter 7 (meet Trahearne in Concordia to witness the start of the Pact). From what I’ve heard, this is the story step that should include Apatia and the related story steps.

I go through the PS very slowly (basically only when it shows up in the Daily), but I’ll report back on my findings once I’ve actually been through it.

If you have reached Forging the Pact prior to the update, then you will experience chapter 7 in its original form. However, you will not experience chapter 8 in its original form. Similarly, if you reached chapter 8 (starts with Temple of the Forgotten God originally) prior to the update, then you will experience it in its original form.

If you have not reached either then you will experience the new form when you get there (pending no other alterations).

The restructuring and removal of the Fear arc removed any faith I had in the late personal story. Honestly the whole Pact/Corruption thing wasn’t particularly interesting apart from the epic eye battle and the Fear arc. Removal of the Fear arc is just horrible.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

The China client is completely different from our own. The only point of conformity between China and NA/EU dat files is just for ease of updates, but there’s a lot of things that aren’t shared – such as VIP mode (trust me, you don’t even want to hear what that bullkitten is about).

This. I have the feeling that they’re maintaining separate code bases for China and EU/US client. It’s possible that when porting feature over from the Chinese client to the EU/US client they might have accidentally included some features however (although this would be more a copy-paste related issue). But this seems unlikely.

I am not sure if this will help out much, but I joined in a friend’s story instance recently and I at least managed to get the screenshot of the choices you would make for your Greatest Fear. I may have to get in touch with him soon so that way I can see if Apatia’s quest was removed completely from the game, though I did managed to play the final part of Apatia’s quest after the patch came out.

They don’t seem to have altered any dialogue, and if you were in the storyline then you’d be able to finish it so being able to do the final part of it means nothing.

I can confirm that they removed the Greatest Fear part from the personal story. After the patch I chose Apatia’s story (“I worry that one day my duties will cause me to condemn someone to agony”) in “Light in the Darkness” but I could never experience it. After Forging the Pact you have to go and defend Fort Trinity where any reference to the greatest fear arc is removed from the cinematic dialogue with Trehaerne. I finished my personal story yesterday and while I could choose a greatest fear, the corresponding storylines were completely cut out.

SlayerGT.6805:

RedStar.4218:

Metrics must have told them that their players aren’t paying any attention to the PS. So why bother with continuity when they can just remove things and only a small minority of players will even care to complain about it ?

Okay, and in what way is it beneficial to have 4 missions less or to rearrange it if players “don’t care” anyway? Were they just waiting for a chance to screw it up because the new team hates the core story? Was a coherent story costing extra money?

No, it makes no sense. I’m starting to have a half-hunch we’re still not getting any info on this because they cannot come up with a plausible explanation for such a kittenty decision.

I was poking fun at their latest favorite excuse.

I can’tr find a real reason from the top of my head and with Anet, I’m not going to bothered delving too deep into it. Anything they do to the lore is something you shouldn’t spend time speculating about because it’s simply going to frustrate you and you will rarely get an official satisfying answer (if you do end up getting one).

What’s more worrying?
- They don’t understand the impact of their changes
- They don’t understand storytelling
- They don’t think the story is important
- They are more concerned about packaging their product than the quality

Chris Whiteside did mention over in the Communication thread on the General forum that they are aware of the negative feedback surrounding these changes, and we may actually see some more changes made.

That’s hopeful.