Guild Wars 2

I’m not saying you’re wrong about ANet’s stance in the past, I’m just saying that their stance now is 100% unequivocally definitely canon. Yeah, the flip-flopping was annoying and confusing, but it’s done now. The metaphorical bridge has been constructed. We can stop talking about how it didn’t used to be there, walk across it, and get on with our lives.

Sure, however, it’s poor form to attack people for saying that parts of the Living Story were deliberately written to be in an ambiguous time setting. That was definitely the case – I think 98% is an exaggeration, but there were definitely parts of the LS that were made to be ambiguous, and in many ways it suffered for this.

A consistent PS-LS1-LS2 timeline is now back to being canon, and this is a good thing, but its not appropriate to say ’you’re wrong’ to people who point out this wasn’t always the case. Better to say ‘that was then, but that policy has been dropped’.

Well, then I apologise if I came across that way. I never meant to say that anyone was wrong, and I don’t think that I explicitly did, but if that’s how it looked then I’m genuinely sorry.

All I meant was to say that regardless of what the past confusion was, for the purposes of any meaningful discussion now, it’s not relevant to talk about things in any context other than the officially confirmed canon.

Again, if I came across as rude or abrasive, it was a genuine misunderstanding, and I’m sorry for doing so.

Tipper.7354:

True, I’m sure the invasion of Lion’s Arch didn’t involve desperately evacuating citizens for a full month. Though the Marionette was a weapons test, and it does make sense that Scarlet would test it more than once, and it could simply be that Lion’s Arch was taken and then held by the Miasma and Scarlet’s forces for weeks, and the dynamic events simply focused on the more interesting playable parts of that. But yes, the timeline almost certainly doesn’t go 1-1 for every event.
Still, at the same time it is silly to assume that the events happened in anything resembling a short time frame. At the very least, Wintersday and Halloween both happened in the meantime, and we didn’t jump from Molten Alliance to Toxic Alliance to Tower of Nightmares to the Invasion all in the space of a week or a month. If we assume that some events went faster and others went slower, then we could reasonable average it out to say that the real-world timeframe of 18 months is pretty close to the in-game timeframe. And I’d still argue that if it’s not an exact comparison, it’s much more likely to have been longer in-game than it was real-world.

Actually, Anet outright said Marionette event happened only oce in canon.

Also, the actual length of the battle of LA is more likely to be 2-4 days at the most. Invasion first day, miasma clearing the second (because it’s a coastal town. it wouldn’t take weeks for the Miasma to clear because of the wind changing), and then a day or two of fighting to reclaim the city. We know the Lionguard at the traders forum fought for an entire day and night once the miasma cleared, and were waiting for Scarlet to die toward the end of the night/the next morning. Whether she died on the first night (and they simply hadn’t heard it yet because of the battle), or died on the second day is unknown.

Also, the mail for Tequatl rising can be taken MANY ways. One is that the invasion of Orr was happening at that moment. Another is that it was a response to the Pact Offensive in Orr being successful, and the Risen were trying to gain an edge to push back.

I never took it as being during personal story myself. And honestly, while that statement can work for single people, as a whole it doesn’t work for the timeline AT ALL. Like how in GW1 you could jump into nightfall at LA with a proph character, but it really happened two years later.

They did have npcs (and still do) which mention personal story steps (if you completed or not). IE flame and frost ones mentioning you as “Commander” if you had forged the pact. Laranthir, IIRC, would have more neutral/generic pact dialogue if you hadn’t completed the personal story, but if you did he calls you commander and mentions defeating Zhaitan. The flip flops I can believe happened, but they were solved and the current setup made… a good while back (weeks or so).

For the initial attack and invasion of Lion’s Arch, and the following evacuation, 2-4 days is a perfectly reasonable timeline. And for the purposes of gameplay, those events were repeated for a full month.
But having taken Lion’s Arch, it’s not at all unreasonable to say that Scarlet’s forces could have then held the city for a month or two. It was a massive, well-supported army of land, sea and air troops, and at any time Scarlet could deploy the miasma to clear any forces not her own out of the city. And a serious drilling operation like she undertook, even with a machine that size… that’s not the sort of thing you knock out over the space of a couple of days. There had to be some decent time involved there. Maybe a full two months wouldn’t have been necessary, but it’s at the very least plausible.

It’s like… 90 meters for the drill. And we could see even in the evacuation phase a chunk was inside. It’s driven by magic. Also the fact that post battle there was enough gold left in the bank to warrent guards to keep ANYBODY from the vaults. A battle taking months, even weeks would be enough time for the aetherblades to empty it.

The thing is, we know for a fact they deployed miasma, and as soon as it cleared the lionguard, orders, and adventurers charged back in. Yes, Scarlet had a decent army, but at the same time the reason they took the city was the defenders COULDN’T stay.

Dialogue placed the invasion and evacuation as taking place during a single night. then Scarlet held the city until the wind blew the miasma clear. With natural defenses or built defenses out of the question, it’s unreasonable to hold the city for a month. Many medieval sieges lasted until the wall/gates broke, and then were over within a few hours. I looked it up, and even field battles were “Days of positioning, 45 minutes of battle, and 6 hours to a day of hunting down the fleeing enemy.”

Hmm… I still think it’s reasonable that the Miasma could have been deployed multiple times to keep defenders out, and I do actually have some (admittedly small) experience with mining and drilling techniques. The drill could have easily made that distance in a day or two, you’re right, but setting it up and stabilizing it would take time, and doing so in a war zone would be impractical, which implies the city would have to be cleared, then held long enough for the drill to be positioned and supported, and then the actual drilling itself…

It’s definitely more than a couple of days, but you’re right – Lion’s Arch clearly didn’t take two full months. Point acknowledged. c:

Erukk.1408:

Sure, we know the LS is set after the PS now, but when it first came out, they were tippy toeing around the subject. It confused everyone for a long time, and we really didn’t get full confirmation on the subject until the LS that introduced the marionette fight. (I can’t remember the LS’s name.)

And yes, we do have confirmation that Trahearne is still the Pact’s Marshall. Laranthir of the Wild said he had to get his permission to take an airship to LA, and that he only permission once word got out that Scarlet’s target was an Elder Dragon. That was during the s1 epilogue.

I think ANet tried to have their cake and eat it in terms of the timeline. It always had a ‘after the PS’-feel to it but ANet tried to make it as lightly connected to the PS as possible to prevent confusing. Sure it confused us over here on the forums a bit, but in game (for a while until ANet probably saw that it wasn’t working all that well) it was reasonably possible for most players to not notice this.
Of course once they made it a bit more explicit that the LW is set after PS then people on the forum started asking the sorts of questions that ANet was probably trying to avoid (you know like ‘Where was the Pack?’).

I never did enjoy how both Trahearne’s or Scarlet were delivered to us. So much opportunity wasted with these two. One was suppose to be a well renowned scholar of orr turning into a reluctant war general against zhaitan’s corruption. The other was suppose to be a gifted intellectual prodigy gone insane with her need to satisfied her own curiosity at whatever the cost. Both of them seemed like they understood their core class motivation (necromancer & engineer). However after that they were all over the place and their character transitions and in your face character stereotypes. Trahearne was the unfeeling nerco that spent his time as the exposition king of the century. Scarlet was just a stereotypical megalomaniac with such wonderful lines such as “die, die, die ,die…” Why do I have a feeling that both these characters were made by the same person.

Mr Mango.3504:

The Pact being destroyed at the beginning of a new arc because of a new BIG BAD (Morde, not saying he’s a cliche but using him in this way would make him more cliche) is a terrible cliche. Please don’t listen to this, Anet.

What if Zhaitan destroyed the Pact? Few people were happy with the Personal Story ending and to be honest, it has made Elder Dragons look kinda pathetic. To put it bluntly, that final fight was really lame. On top of that, it has been shown to be very difficult to definitely state that Zhaitan is dead – we’ve only seen “defeated” (feel free to link the thread talking about Shards of Zhaitan and dev comments only using the word “defeated”). What if Zhaitan lived? What if he’s off licking his wounds and he’s the lore reason for why Tequatl got stronger? What if Zhaitan was helped out by the ley line disruption and has recovered enough to launch an assault?

The Pact thinks he’s dead. Their leadership is mostly in Orr, but now they are looking South, to Mordremoth and the other dragons. While operations continue in Orr, the priorities have changed with the assumption(?) that Zhaitan is gone forever and no-one would be expecting an attack from Zhaitan at this point.

You say the Pact being taken down by a new Big Bad is a cliché (clichés are clichés for a reason and the story is full of them no matter what the writers think they are doing – good writing can embrace them and maximise their strengths) but what if it wasn’t the new Big Bad, what if it was the old one? The one we thought was defeated? Start players off by misleading them into thinking Mordremoth is the next threat, then bring back Zhaitan from behind.

I think Trahearne has too much story potential to kill him off, but I don’t think the Pact needs to survive. The lesson wasn’t that we need the Pact, but that Tyria needs to work together. How do you make a story interesting when the organisation formed at the beginning (creating all the technologies necessary to successfully take down a dragon) still exists to take one, what is essentially the same challenge? Once one dragon goes, down, logically shouldn’t the others become easier? I can see Palawa Joko throwing a spanner in the works when it comes time to take on Kralkatorrik, but I really think something needs to change if we are going to have compelling stories and challenges going forward. Writing villains who are super smart at everything and have trained under everyone then handing all the allied leaders the idiot ball, that’s just going to have players tuning out.

Trahearne can’t die because thanks to the personal story, we are the second in command of the pact. So if trahearne were to die, we would be the leaders of the pact and that is like openning a giant can of worms for the writing team.

I say mordy should just destroy the pact entirely.

Most of Trahearns story has been told, since his wild hunt was to lead the pact.
Though, since this has been fullfilled his role in the pact (and the fact that he is an expert on Orr and nowhere else, aside from beeing a skilled magician/necromancer), i would like to see him step down or be in charge till they have found a replacement.

In fact they could use it as another way to have players “vote” for the direction of the story.
If we have adventures with with the pact and meet certain characters that could evolve into comander, we can get to know them and then vote for the “most suited one”
While this could easily go into “archetype” territory, i see it as a oportunity to create player involvement and keep the pact relevant.

Speaking of relevant. Splitting the pact after Zaithan would not be a wise choice.
The new technology that has been gained through the combination of the orders (and Scarlets involvement…) as well as the simple fighting force is nothing to sneeze upon.
Furthermore it is a united force, covering not only the higher but also the lesser races.

It is a symbol for equality and cooperation.

Just thinking about setting foot into Cantha to gain new allies would be so interesting.
(I do not want a new “traderoute”, i rather have diplomatic mission which goes down thanks to Canthas xenophobic tendencies…
getting there, beeing cast out or tricked, joining some kind rebel alliance to bring down the regime while getting more and more info about the closest elder dragon… recovering more territory inside Cantha, maybe even choosing between “factions” there…)

Well, the way a lot of organisations work is that if the elected leader is removed – for whatever reason – the second-in-command only takes control until a new leader is chosen. So if Trahearne was killed, relieved of duty, or simply chose to step down, the Player Character would technically lead the Pact, but only until the highest-ranked members chose a new Marshal.
Y’know, I could even see ANet doing that intentionally. Those players who felt they wanted to lead the Pact, give them their moment of doing so before someone else is officially elected Marshal.

I don’t know if I think that Zhaitan coming back is a great direction for the plot, though. If it’s not dead, then the entire Personal Storyline was useless, every victory undone, every sacrifice for nothing. Now, its death can raise a red flag for the other Elder Dragons – they’re suddenly fighting a force that killed one of them, something that has never happened before. And they’re not just mindless forces of destruction, these beings are fiercely intelligent. They’d recognize that threat and respond appropriately.
The campaigns against the remaining dragons will likely be much more of a challenge, plot-wise, for that exact reason. I always felt the Pact’s flawless string of victories in Orr largely happened because Zhaitan underestimated its enemy – nothing had ever challenged it before, so Zhaitan was caught utterly unprepared for such a full-scale attack on the seat of its power. But that won’t happen twice, and that means the Pact’s image – and Trahearne’s image – of perfect, always-right, always-good heroes who always win the day… might not last.

Shiren.9532:

The Pact thinks he’s dead. Their leadership is mostly in Orr, but now they are looking South, to Mordremoth and the other dragons. While operations continue in Orr, the priorities have changed with the assumption(?) that Zhaitan is gone forever and no-one would be expecting an attack from Zhaitan at this point.

You say the Pact being taken down by a new Big Bad is a cliché (clichés are clichés for a reason and the story is full of them no matter what the writers think they are doing – good writing can embrace them and maximise their strengths) but what if it wasn’t the new Big Bad, what if it was the old one? The one we thought was defeated? Start players off by misleading them into thinking Mordremoth is the next threat, then bring back Zhaitan from behind.

All I’m thinking about is: yeah a reason to remake / add a new Zhaitan final battle!

Treh’s wild hunt is over. He has no part in the future storyline. So yes he will probably be killed off. XD

His Wyld Hunt has just begun, actually. I agree that he has no real part in the direction the story will take us, the players, but disagree that he’ll be axed.

Trahearne’s Wyld Hunt is to restore the land of Orr. He knows where to begin (the Source of Orr), and we have eliminated the obstacle stopping his efforts (Zhaitan), but he’s got a LONG road ahead of him. (In the super-hypothetical GW3, in which Orr is thriving again, he’ll probably be credited with its restoration – along with props to the “Pact Commander” for destroying Zhaitan.)

Because of his duties in Orr, I see no reason to bring him into the story unless, for whatever reason, the story takes us back TO Orr. I do not think this is likely in the context of the Elder Dragons – they each seem to be consolidating their own lands, and expanding them slowly – but could see an interstitial story arc taking us down south for a while, provided a plausible enough reason is found (current most likely candidate is Zhaitan 2.0, a.k.a. Tequatl the Sunless, aiming for his old boss’s throne).

In such a theoretical side arc, it is possible that they could contrive to kill of Trahearne (to show who really runs things in Orr), but I’m placing it on a low probability scenario, all things considered.

As for Mordremoth – he just woke up. He’s not likely to head zooming off, unless he intends to pull a Kralkatorrik and make his lair somewhere else. I had previously considered the idea that he might come after Lion’s Arch (during Dragon Bash, no less!), where the ley lines were interrupted, but discarded that on account of it would basically END L.A. for good. A direct assault by an Elder Dragon, before the city is even rebuilt, would be far worse than anything they’ve shrugged off in the past.

The Pact, itself, should NOT be dissolved – with or without our continuing participation, the three Orders coordinating anti-dragon efforts is a very good reserve army" to call upon when needed.

I do agree that it’s not guaranteed that the next arc will be about Mordremoth (although it is likely, from a narrative standpoint, in that Season One ended by introducing it). Zhaitan, after all, was the third Elder Dragon to rise, with two before it, and one after (not counting the DSD, whose awakening is not specified to a time). Primordus, Jormag, Zhaitan, Kralkatorrik – they didn’t go after the one that rose so very recently, nor the one who’s been awake the longest.

No, they went after the one causing the most immediate trouble, and the Risen were a threat to the habitats of three of the playable races, and no less than three of the minor races (skritt, dredge, and hylek), AND basically was quashing all shipping; the Risen had a very active navy.

I don’t know for sure where Arenanet is going to take us next, but wherever it is, I do remain hopeful – the evolution of their talents over the course of the first season give me much more faith that the second will be quite good, perhaps even from the outset (although I will forgive an “introductory” arc, as long as it doesn’t take TWO MONTHS like last time).

My hopes:

When Trahearne performed the cleansing ritual to purify Orr, he was corrupted or tainted or just flat out had his essence exhausted to the point he’s vulnerable to being corrupted by Mordremoth. Mordy does just that and we the players have to put Treesus out of his misery.

Duke Darkwood.4237:

His Wyld Hunt has just begun, actually. I agree that he has no real part in the direction the story will take us, the players, but disagree that he’ll be axed.

Trahearne’s Wyld Hunt is to restore the land of Orr. He knows where to begin (the Source of Orr), and we have eliminated the obstacle stopping his efforts (Zhaitan), but he’s got a LONG road ahead of him. (In the super-hypothetical GW3, in which Orr is thriving again, he’ll probably be credited with its restoration – along with props to the “Pact Commander” for destroying Zhaitan.)

That’s actually a good point. Either Trahearne will stay in Orr to help cleanse it or he’ll be: “Meh cleansed the source, that’s fine. Off to the next dragons!”

It would have made sense for Trahearne to stay in Orr to complete his Wyld Hunt but the writers took the story in another direction. Trahearne specifically says in game that the Wyld Hunt is over and for the first time in his life he can choose his own future (or words to that effect). If he stays in Orr it is his own decision.

Because His hunt was to cleanse Orr, not to restore the land to fully supporting life.

With cleansing the source of the corruption, the land will be cleaned as the water flows through it. It’ll take a while, but it’ll happen.

Now yes, he could stay in Orr and try to speed the healing up.