Obsidian Sky – SoR
I troll because I care
I troll because I care
Which parts of the lore annoy or depress you?
Dragons, even in GW1, were very limited. You had bone dragons and then the Saltspray and turtle dragons… and that was it.
Glint and Kuunavang don’t count here??
Two completely unique dragons who as far as we know, actually at that time had no ‘peers’ in terms of dragons. There wasn’t THAT much in terms of widespread dragon stuff.
Even in GW1 the Gods weren’t really present for much, so it’s not like they were forced out. They simply went from appearing randomly to hardly appearing at all.
…and being responsible for 99% of all magic usage on the planet. Even the Charr used their magic.
Which seems more like a “They dumped magic on the world” thing. Given how basically EVERYBODY, Dwarves, Charr, humans, Forgotton, Naga, etc used magic widely. I’m talking what did the gods do in the first three campaigns directly in that timeframe.
Also, how would you keep the gods being major influential figures in a multi-race RPG? Because only two races have something like that. Norn and Humans. Charr, Sylvari, and Asura don’t have that.
As far as we know, only Kormir is a human god. Are the others human? I’ve never heard that. Since when can a multi-race RPG not have gods???
Grenth is half-human, if you want to be specific. The point is, if sounds like you are saying the gods were VERY involved in the events of GW1 (they weren’t), and were kicked to the curb for GW2.
How would you have it in GW2 if the gods were still very much, and very heavily involved in human life? Norn have the spirits of the wild, but what do Charr, Asura, or Sylvari have?
As far as we know, only Kormir is a human god.
A priestess of Grenth in Orr during the Personal Story reveals that one of the great secrets of the Grenth’s cultus is that Grenth was mortal, being the son of Dwayna and a human sculptor.
How would you have it in GW2 if the gods were still very much, and very heavily involved in human life? Norn have the spirits of the wild, but what do Charr, Asura, or Sylvari have?
Doesn’t that follow the presumption that they need to have something? Not that it matters, since the Charr, Asura, and Sylvari have far more story in GW2 than the humans. Anything humans can do, they can do better.
Will Hawkins (Human Guardian)
Feryl Grimsteel (Charr Engineer)
Tarnished Coast
Feryl Grimsteel (Charr Engineer)
Tarnished Coast
How would you have it in GW2 if the gods were still very much, and very heavily involved in human life? Norn have the spirits of the wild, but what do Charr, Asura, or Sylvari have?
Doesn’t that follow the presumption that they need to have something? Not that it matters, since the Charr, Asura, and Sylvari have far more story in GW2 than the humans. Anything humans can do, they can do better.
If the gods are actively influencing events and stuff around humanity… it’d stand races ‘without’ gods would be at a weaker point. IE, Charr were originally driven out because they didn’t have a god standing behind them as I recall.
Honestly, that ties into how humanity is starting to come out of relying on the gods. Human engineering was required to make the airships fly though, so they aren’t really behind.
If the gods are actively influencing events and stuff around humanity… it’d stand races ‘without’ gods would be at a weaker point. IE, Charr were originally driven out because they didn’t have a god standing behind them as I recall.
Honestly, that ties into how humanity is starting to come out of relying on the gods. Human engineering was required to make the airships fly though, so they aren’t really behind.
Would you even be able to tell that human tech was involved in those airships? What about those ships strike you as ‘human’ and not ‘charr’ or ‘asura’?
Have we been playing the same game? The game where a lot of the lore on the Orr offensive was about sylvari with a lot of charr and asura tech with these civilizations being incredibly dismissive to humans and their gods? What with an asura referring to Balthazar as the “god of murder” and an asura who was required for a human priest of Grenth to perform a ritual in Orr?
Will Hawkins (Human Guardian)
Feryl Grimsteel (Charr Engineer)
Tarnished Coast
Feryl Grimsteel (Charr Engineer)
Tarnished Coast
If the gods are actively influencing events and stuff around humanity… it’d stand races ‘without’ gods would be at a weaker point. IE, Charr were originally driven out because they didn’t have a god standing behind them as I recall.
Honestly, that ties into how humanity is starting to come out of relying on the gods. Human engineering was required to make the airships fly though, so they aren’t really behind.
Would you even be able to tell that human tech was involved in those airships? What about those ships strike you as ‘human’ and not ‘charr’ or ‘asura’?
Have we been playing the same game? The game where a lot of the lore on the Orr offensive was about sylvari with a lot of charr and asura tech with these civilizations being incredibly dismissive to humans and their gods? What with an asura referring to Balthazar as the “god of murder” and an asura who was required for a human priest of Grenth to perform a ritual in Orr?
They explicitly, utterly state human, asura, and charr engineering made the Airships fly.
The Asura who called Balthazar the god of murder was an older one, who often was grumpy in some sort IIRC. One Asura does not make the entire race.
The Asura had tech that allowed them to see the ritual’s details (which were lost because Orr sank). They needed the Orr specific rituals in order to summon the Avatar of Grenth/Reaper of Grenth… which nobody knew.
I don’t really recall Asura or Charr being super dismissive about humanity or the human gods during the Orr offensive. I recall the Orr offensive actually had a good bit of human lore, in Malchor’s Leap there is a camp filled with history scrolls so people could better know the surroundings. Sylvari, I don’t remember it happening much in Orr either. Now elsewhere I’ve seen some shake their heads at humans about the gods, but that is more of a “We didn’t see what the gods did… so we aren’t 100% believers.”
Yes, humanity isn’t as well off as it was before, in MANY ways.
Two completely unique dragons who as far as we know, actually at that time had no ‘peers’ in terms of dragons. There wasn’t THAT much in terms of widespread dragon stuff.
Drakes are dragons too.
Which seems more like a “They dumped magic on the world” thing. Given how basically EVERYBODY, Dwarves, Charr, humans, Forgotton, Naga, etc used magic widely. I’m talking what did the gods do in the first three campaigns directly in that timeframe.
That’s not what you asked, you asked if they were present that much. Pre-Exodus, physically no, but indirectly through magic they were everywhere. Not to mention the FoW and the UW were all “godly” places.
Grenth is half-human, if you want to be specific. The point is, if sounds like you are saying the gods were VERY involved in the events of GW1 (they weren’t), and were kicked to the curb for GW2.
Yes, half human. He usurped Dhumm on Tyria sometime between humanities arrival and the Exodus. Dhumm, along with Abaddon and the rest, came from the Mists and there’s no mention of them actually being human, only that they brought humans to Tyria.
How would you have it in GW2 if the gods were still very much, and very heavily involved in human life? Norn have the spirits of the wild, but what do Charr, Asura, or Sylvari have?
Seriously? I would never have had Norn or Asura or Sylvari at all. Why not Dwarves and Tengu and Centaurs?? They were already set up to take the playable-race role, why pass them over?(granted the Charr they kept). To me that just screams I don’t want to merely add to someone else narrative, I want to make my own. Oh but I’m still going to use his stuff as a foundation because it already has a fanbase!
Where does it say that new playable races have to have their own gods when they were using the Six’ magic all along? Because they favor humans perhaps?? One of the major themes of Proph is of humanities punishment for their arrogance and pride, it’s rather easy to see that the gods no longer “favored” humans over the other races.
Obsidian Sky – SoR
I troll because I care
I troll because I care
That the human gods are left to the sidelines. I see the human “gods” more like ascended humans that hold an aspected power can be replaced and this is really a point of lore and conflict I think could be expanded on alot. Why haven’t a necromancer of great power challenged Grenth for his seat of power.
This whole idea is based on the Malazan Book of the Fallen pantheon and workings around their “gods” and “their” realms.
My point is that if the human gods have distanced themselves from the humans why haven’t there been any challenges to their power? A new ascended of war etc. Wouldn’t it be cool if say Rytlock is now on such a level of power that Balthazar could be threatened or some such?
The human gods’ seats of power shouldn’t be so safe.
Two completely unique dragons who as far as we know, actually at that time had no ‘peers’ in terms of dragons. There wasn’t THAT much in terms of widespread dragon stuff.
Drakes are dragons too.
I’ll look it but, but I recall that Drakes are actually not related to dragons such as Glint or the elder dragons. Remember, GW doesn’t follow typical fantasy creatures exactly. Incubuses are bat like beings. Bats are more like big lizards. What says Drakes are explicitly tied to dragons?
Which seems more like a “They dumped magic on the world” thing. Given how basically EVERYBODY, Dwarves, Charr, humans, Forgotton, Naga, etc used magic widely. I’m talking what did the gods do in the first three campaigns directly in that timeframe.
That’s not what you asked, you asked if they were present that much. Pre-Exodus, physically no, but indirectly through magic they were everywhere. Not to mention the FoW and the UW were all “godly” places.
That’s not what I asked either. “Magic being around” is not a direct act of the gods during that period. Sure, it was released by them perhaps, but it’s not like to cast lightning I HAVE to pray to Dwayna. Balthazar doesn’t personally spawn every fireball thrown. The way I took your statement was as if GW2 literally kicked the gods to the curb and in GW1 they were actively involved in the world. Which they really weren’t. FoW and UW is about the most, and that’s simply spawning a portal.
Grenth is half-human, if you want to be specific. The point is, if sounds like you are saying the gods were VERY involved in the events of GW1 (they weren’t), and were kicked to the curb for GW2.
Yes, half human. He usurped Dhumm on Tyria sometime between humanities arrival and the Exodus. Dhumm, along with Abaddon and the rest, came from the Mists and there’s no mention of them actually being human, only that they brought humans to Tyria.
You are arguing semantics. When I say “Human gods” I OBVIOUSLY refer to the SIX GODS, who directly tie to HUMANITY. Not that they ARE HUMAN. But they are the GODS OF THE HUMANS.
How would you have it in GW2 if the gods were still very much, and very heavily involved in human life? Norn have the spirits of the wild, but what do Charr, Asura, or Sylvari have?
Seriously? I would never have had Norn or Asura or Sylvari at all. Why not Dwarves and Tengu and Centaurs?? They were already set up to take the playable-race role, why pass them over?(granted the Charr they kept). To me that just screams I don’t want to merely add to someone else narrative, I want to make my own. Oh but I’m still going to use his stuff as a foundation because it already has a fanbase!
Where does it say that new playable races have to have their own gods when they were using the Six’ magic all along? Because they favor humans perhaps?? One of the major themes of Proph is of humanities punishment for their arrogance and pride, it’s rather easy to see that the gods no longer “favored” humans over the other races.
Again, your point came across, to me, as if the gods were actively involved in the world as of GW1, affecting humanity and other events. Which they weren’t.
If you meant something else, then I mistook you.
They explicitly, utterly state human, asura, and charr engineering made the Airships fly.
I know but that doesn’t answer my question I asked you: “Would you even be able to tell that human tech was involved in those airships? What about those ships strike you as ‘human’ and not ‘charr’ or ‘asura’?”
The Asura who called Balthazar the god of murder was an older one, who often was grumpy in some sort IIRC. One Asura does not make the entire race.
A prominent asura during a storyline that everyone in the Priory plays.
The Asura had tech that allowed them to see the ritual’s details (which were lost because Orr sank). They needed the Orr specific rituals in order to summon the Avatar of Grenth/Reaper of Grenth… which nobody knew.
Yep. Asura saves the day for the humans regarding their gods and religions.
I don’t really recall Asura or Charr being super dismissive about humanity or the human gods during the Orr offensive. I recall the Orr offensive actually had a good bit of human lore, in Malchor’s Leap there is a camp filled with history scrolls so people could better know the surroundings. Sylvari, I don’t remember it happening much in Orr either. Now elsewhere I’ve seen some shake their heads at humans about the gods, but that is more of a “We didn’t see what the gods did… so we aren’t 100% believers.”
Yes, humanity isn’t as well off as it was before, in MANY ways.
There’s human lore but humans are treated as second-class citizens when it came to Orr. The Orr Offensive was led by a sylvari, the commander commissioned in a vision by the Pale Tree, and with a special elite legion of sylvari.
Will Hawkins (Human Guardian)
Feryl Grimsteel (Charr Engineer)
Tarnished Coast
Feryl Grimsteel (Charr Engineer)
Tarnished Coast
My biggest annoyance with the lore is the Living Story, and much of what it brings. Not only is lore malleable to make room for a terrible quality story, but the LS tries to make game mechanics into lore, eg: Waypoints.
Waypoints actually existing in lore now is probably my biggest beef with the lore at this time. Instant transportation like that invalidate a great deal of what is done in a fantasy setting, including in GW2 along side Waypoints. What is the purpose of merchant ships, merchant caravans, and the like if we can simply toss the goods to be transported though a Waypoint? Additionally for the transportation of people, soldiers and the like, the existence of Waypoints invalidates a lot of the logistical aspects there, including bringing reinforcements to front lines of conflicts.
While discussing this issue with guildies, the common fan canon that was used was that the operation of Waypoints is prohibitively expensive, thus they do exist but yet their existence does not invalidate much of the game’s lore. And now in the new LA we have random NPC’s using Waypoints all the time /shrug more stuff to ignore and pretend Anet never included I guess
This is actually rather similar to how the Personal Story kind of wrote the story into a corner. Anet wanted us to be an individual in some very powerful role of the largest military force in the land… however that was at complete odds with any other story they wanted to go with, so in the LS we found that we were inexplicably out of a job as second in command of the largest military force of the land… not only that our position of trust and people’s respect for the main character suddenly vanished without explanation, since even though we knew of Scarlets planned LA attacks and all that. No one would listen to us and we needed to group up with some misfits where it is still not explained WHY we are even hanging around them.
For these reasons, from a lore/RP perspective I generally ignore much of both the Personal and Living Stories, because the [very poor quality] story is the worst enemy of the [wonderful] lore much of the time in this game.
Not to mention all the other potential uses of waypoint technology: from garbage disposal, sewage solutions, construction, heck — terraforming — to advanced medical treatments, military applications, and more. This is game changing stuff here. We are witnessing the birth of a genuine technological revolution. All that’s needed is someone with some imagination to start applying this tech creatively, proactively, and more importantly, of course, profitably.
The table is a fable.
My biggest annoyance with the lore is the Living Story, and much of what it brings. Not only is lore malleable to make room for a terrible quality story, but the LS tries to make game mechanics into lore, eg: Waypoints.
Waypoints actually existing in lore now is probably my biggest beef with the lore at this time. Instant transportation like that invalidate a great deal of what is done in a fantasy setting, including in GW2 along side Waypoints. What is the purpose of merchant ships, merchant caravans, and the like if we can simply toss the goods to be transported though a Waypoint? Additionally for the transportation of people, soldiers and the like, the existence of Waypoints invalidates a lot of the logistical aspects there, including bringing reinforcements to front lines of conflicts.
While discussing this issue with guildies, the common fan canon that was used was that the operation of Waypoints is prohibitively expensive, thus they do exist but yet their existence does not invalidate much of the game’s lore. And now in the new LA we have random NPC’s using Waypoints all the time /shrug more stuff to ignore and pretend Anet never included I guess
This is actually rather similar to how the Personal Story kind of wrote the story into a corner. Anet wanted us to be an individual in some very powerful role of the largest military force in the land… however that was at complete odds with any other story they wanted to go with, so in the LS we found that we were inexplicably out of a job as second in command of the largest military force of the land… not only that our position of trust and people’s respect for the main character suddenly vanished without explanation, since even though we knew of Scarlets planned LA attacks and all that. No one would listen to us and we needed to group up with some misfits where it is still not explained WHY we are even hanging around them.
For these reasons, from a lore/RP perspective I generally ignore much of both the Personal and Living Stories, because the [very poor quality] story is the worst enemy of the [wonderful] lore much of the time in this game.
So this is a popular one where people think role play is invalidated by the use of teleports. You see it in many games, once you can fast travel somewhere it removes some of the immersion. However this does not mean there is not room in the lore for this fast travel.
For example in The Legend of Zelda: Wind Waker. You can conduct the wind to lift your boat to certain locations, and you no longer have to sail. You miss some of the beauty of the game, but there is nothing amazingly unusual going on.
In Gw1 http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Map-Travel_Inventor we have this terrible part of lore.
Personally I think waypoints are very positive for lore. You need to remember some things:
- waypoints travel between waypoints, there will always be voyages, and transporting thing, we have seen no indication large objects can be waypointed
- not everything is near a waypoint. If my party is traveling to a destination between me and a waypoint, why would I use one?
- contested, RPers, make the waypoint contested. It really isn’t that hard. Or make it so a person can’t use a waypoint because they havent discovered it, or they are sick, or they dont have money.
“Kentigem”-chief. Born cycle of Dusk. Wyld Hunt:
Learn as much mending and medical info as possible so that it can be added to the Dream.
Become the first Chief of Mending and guide the newly awaken as well as those who want to learn.
Learn as much mending and medical info as possible so that it can be added to the Dream.
Become the first Chief of Mending and guide the newly awaken as well as those who want to learn.
They explicitly, utterly state human, asura, and charr engineering made the Airships fly.
I know but that doesn’t answer my question I asked you: “Would you even be able to tell that human tech was involved in those airships? What about those ships strike you as ‘human’ and not ‘charr’ or ‘asura’?”
For one, the pilot wheel. Second, the cannons strike me more toward human then Charr. Frankly, there is little there besides the windows that strike one as “asura”
The Asura who called Balthazar the god of murder was an older one, who often was grumpy in some sort IIRC. One Asura does not make the entire race.
A prominent asura during a storyline that everyone in the Priory plays.
Who was generally, IIRC, grouchy, but otherwise perfectly fine with humans.
The Asura had tech that allowed them to see the ritual’s details (which were lost because Orr sank). They needed the Orr specific rituals in order to summon the Avatar of Grenth/Reaper of Grenth… which nobody knew.
Yep. Asura saves the day for the humans regarding their gods and religions.
Ignoring that the problem in question was they required a VERY, VERY SPECIFIC RITUAL, performed correctly, to do the task. An Asura had a device which would detect the faint magic from the rituals in the past and allow them to see it. This isn’t bashing humans, it’s simply lost knowledge.
I don’t really recall Asura or Charr being super dismissive about humanity or the human gods during the Orr offensive. I recall the Orr offensive actually had a good bit of human lore, in Malchor’s Leap there is a camp filled with history scrolls so people could better know the surroundings. Sylvari, I don’t remember it happening much in Orr either. Now elsewhere I’ve seen some shake their heads at humans about the gods, but that is more of a “We didn’t see what the gods did… so we aren’t 100% believers.”
Yes, humanity isn’t as well off as it was before, in MANY ways.
There’s human lore but humans are treated as second-class citizens when it came to Orr. The Orr Offensive was led by a sylvari, the commander commissioned in a vision by the Pale Tree, and with a special elite legion of sylvari.
Um… how are they treated like second class citizens? Would you say that if it had been a Norn? An Asura?
Also said legion is only in ONE of the story arcs. If you do the others they don’t even APPEAR.
And they were pure Sylvari for the only reason because of the fact they CAN’T become Risen. That’s IT. Again, failing to see how this makes humans second class citizens SO badly.
My biggest annoyance with the lore is the Living Story, and much of what it brings. Not only is lore malleable to make room for a terrible quality story, but the LS tries to make game mechanics into lore, eg: Waypoints.
Waypoints actually existing in lore now is probably my biggest beef with the lore at this time. Instant transportation like that invalidate a great deal of what is done in a fantasy setting, including in GW2 along side Waypoints. What is the purpose of merchant ships, merchant caravans, and the like if we can simply toss the goods to be transported though a Waypoint? Additionally for the transportation of people, soldiers and the like, the existence of Waypoints invalidates a lot of the logistical aspects there, including bringing reinforcements to front lines of conflicts.
This is actually rather similar to how the Personal Story kind of wrote the story into a corner. Anet wanted us to be an individual in some very powerful role of the largest military force in the land… however that was at complete odds with any other story they wanted to go with, so in the LS we found that we were inexplicably out of a job as second in command of the largest military force of the land… not only that our position of trust and people’s respect for the main character suddenly vanished without explanation, since even though we knew of Scarlets planned LA attacks and all that. No one would listen to us and we needed to group up with some misfits where it is still not explained WHY we are even hanging around them.
Um, Waypoints were used by NPCs within Orr. In one event chain after you claim a base, reinforcements come through. EVERY npc I’ve seen using the waypoints have gone directly under it, and came out from under it. IMO, you have to use the waypoints that way in lore.
Cost is an issue. I doubt you can carry cargo through the waypoints either. Just like Asura Gates are VERY expensive (And thus many prefer to simply overland instead of paying the fee).
As for the last point, you don’t LOSE that reputation. You simply took a vacation as it’s presented. You don’t suddenly become a nobody.
For one, the pilot wheel. Second, the cannons strike me more toward human then Charr. Frankly, there is little there besides the windows that strike one as “asura”
A pilot wheel? Really? That’s your big evidence? Congratulations, humans, on your ability to stick a wheel on a high tech ship. Such a great technological contribution.
Who was generally, IIRC, grouchy, but otherwise perfectly fine with humans.
Apart from disparaging the human gods. And yes, that asura is the head of the Durmand Priory.
Ignoring that the problem in question was they required a VERY, VERY SPECIFIC RITUAL, performed correctly, to do the task. An Asura had a device which would detect the faint magic from the rituals in the past and allow them to see it. This isn’t bashing humans, it’s simply lost knowledge.
Again, same as the above, with asura doing human religion better than humans.
Um… how are they treated like second class citizens? Would you say that if it had been a Norn? An Asura?
I would accept the norn. They too need lore love. They may be worse off than humans. I probably would have preferred a human or if it had been Destiny’s Edge themselves leading the effort. As opposed to the dungeons being about uniting the band just so they can make a cameo in the Orr Offensive.
Also said legion is only in ONE of the story arcs. If you do the others they don’t even APPEAR.
And they were pure Sylvari for the only reason because of the fact they CAN’T become Risen. That’s IT. Again, failing to see how this makes humans second class citizens SO badly.
So here we are in Orr. The holiest of holy countries surrounding the holiest of holy cities for humans where the gods came. The reclamation of Orr should be of incredible import to humanity regardless of when they last were there or its current state. But who is the expert on all things Orr? Not a human, but a sylvari. Who leads the fight against Zhaitan and Orr? Not a human, but this same sylvari. The sylvari are treated as the special snowflakes who can’t be turned into Risen and a big deal is made that the sylvari are the “chosen ones” who feel its their destiny to fight Zhaitan. And now with Mordremoth being all about the sylvari (again), humans will likely be put on the back burner to the sylvari when it comes to the dragons.
So, Kalavier, do you ever tire of playing apologetics? Do you honestly think that humans are in a good state when it comes to lore development, particularly when it comes to the transition between GW1 and GW2? Do you not think that some races seem to be favored by ArenaNet’s story department?
Will Hawkins (Human Guardian)
Feryl Grimsteel (Charr Engineer)
Tarnished Coast
Feryl Grimsteel (Charr Engineer)
Tarnished Coast
A pilot wheel? Really? That’s your big evidence? Congratulations, humans, on your ability to stick a wheel on a high tech ship. Such a great technological contribution.
May I ask what makes it so distinctly Charr or Asura? Because honestly thinking about it, I don’t see it kitten heavily looking like it belongs to either.
Apart from disparaging the human gods. And yes, that asura is the head of the Durmand Priory.
Hey, ONE ASURA, made a comment about ONE human god. Obviously the entire race treats kittening humanity like kitten right? Yeah, head of the Priory, but that doesn’t mean the entire priory makes fun of the human gods. Guess what, we have Asura making fun of the Norn or charr, is that treating the entire race badly? Nah.
Again, same as the above, with asura doing human religion better than humans.
AGAIN, It’s a ritual that has been lost for over 250 years, EXPLICITLY AND COMPLETELY UNIQUE TO THAT TEMPLE, and REQUIRED for the mission goal. The asura simply had a device that could see what the priests had done there. He wasn’t doing human religion better, he simply was showing them what the dead had done there. That’s. It. It wasn’t bashing humans in any way.
I would accept the norn. They too need lore love. They may be worse off than humans. I probably would have preferred a human or if it had been Destiny’s Edge themselves leading the effort. As opposed to the dungeons being about uniting the band just so they can make a cameo in the Orr Offensive.
Destiny’s Edge is an adventuring group. They are not military masterminds. Rytlock and Logan have some experience in that area, but the rest do not.
So here we are in Orr. The holiest of holy countries surrounding the holiest of holy cities for humans where the gods came. The reclamation of Orr should be of incredible import to humanity regardless of when they last were there or its current state. But who is the expert on all things Orr? Not a human, but a sylvari. Who leads the fight against Zhaitan and Orr? Not a human, but this same sylvari. The sylvari are treated as the special snowflakes who can’t be turned into Risen and a big deal is made that the sylvari are the “chosen ones” who feel its their destiny to fight Zhaitan. And now with Mordremoth being all about the sylvari (again), humans will likely be put on the back burner to the sylvari when it comes to the dragons.
Besides the fact no humans dared go back to Orr after Zhaitan awoke? So just because the expert on Orr as it is today is Traehearne, that means humans are in the kittenhouse? They aren’t made to be special snowflakes as much as you say. Only TWO Sylvari have dreams related directly to Orr/Zhaitan. A number may feel a calling to fight the dragons, but it’s not as big. The fact they can’t be made into undead/zombies is a pretty huge deal WHEN YOU ARE CHARGING AN UNDEAD STRONGHOLD. Rationally, I’d use them for certain tasks as well because if they die, the enemy does not get stronger or gains intel.
With Modremoth, the Sylvari may or may not be touched on again. We don’t know. The fact the primary force against the Modrem while the Pact and field forces try to recover from the fleet being destroyed are random guilds(as far as we see so far, besides the remnants of the Pale Reavers trying to hold the line), I don’t think any one group WILL come out as super important. We’ll see though. That is unclear.
So, Kalavier, do you ever tire of playing apologetics? Do you honestly think that humans are in a good state when it comes to lore development, particularly when it comes to the transition between GW1 and GW2? Do you not think that some races seem to be favored by ArenaNet’s story department?
A: I’ve seen lots of kitten about Trahearne and ‘lack of credit’ around here previously that all boiled down to “They never paid a single shred of attention to the game” So I’m trying to understand if you are bringing up actual issues or simply inventing them, such as the Grenth ritual one.
B: Are they in a good state? Maybe not. But by comparison they already had all of GW1 developments under their belt.
C: GW1 to GW2, in terms of the Tyria area, is simply showing how the three kingdoms have become one. Ascalon was doomed, and Orr Destroyed. Humanity has been weakened and pushed back, but in GW2 are starting to regain some of that fight and move away from reliance on the gods. Doing the map hearts point toward the Centaur war shifting into a “human advantage” phase, though it’s described as going back and forth.
D: Some races may be favored. But every group will favor one side over another at times. Just because they aren’t heaping tons of lore on humans doesn’t shove that group into second class spot. Perhaps they chose to focus more on other races because humanity already has backstory?
May I ask what makes it so distinctly Charr or Asura? Because honestly thinking about it, I don’t see it kitten heavily looking like it belongs to either.
We know that the creation of the pact ships are in the capability of charr and asura to make. The airships look mostly like charr Iron Legion tech. And indeed, the prototype airships were of charr design. We have a saturation of evidence regarding charr and asura tech levels. We have seen nothing from humans to suggest that they would be capable of making such a design on their own. So what about the airships would lead anyone to believe that they contributed to those designs apart from a minor blurb? Let’s put it this way, if we did not have that blurb about who designed the airships, which of the five races would you have guessed made it?
Hey, ONE ASURA, made a comment about ONE human god. Obviously the entire race treats kittening humanity like kitten right? Yeah, head of the Priory, but that doesn’t mean the entire priory makes fun of the human gods. Guess what, we have Asura making fun of the Norn or charr, is that treating the entire race badly? Nah.
Have you gotten that strawman out of your system? Ready to get to the discussion at hand? Good. Fact of the matter is that it’s the head of the Durmand Priory. If you are playing a human member of the Priory then it’s your boss who is utterly kittening on your faith. Pokka, the asura from the Cathedral of Silence mission, displays a similarly dismissive attitude towards the human gods as well. It’s demeaning for human players. Has the shoe ever been on the other foot? Not really as far as the GW2 experience is concerned.
Re Cathedral of Silence: AGAIN, it’s asuran tech that has to be used to help humans perform this ritual. And it’s an asura who is constantly being dismissive of human religion in the midst of the quest.
Priestess Rhie: We’ve done it! Praise Grenth.
Pokka: Praise the Eternal Alchemy, you mean. It was my device that summoned that creepy guy in the first place.
Destiny’s Edge is an adventuring group. They are not military masterminds. Rytlock and Logan have some experience in that area, but the rest do not.
Trehaerne is a scholar who ArenaNet turned into a “military mastermind.” The only that kept Destiny’s Edge from leading the Orr Offensive was ArenaNet. Both Logan and Rytlock have leadership and combat experience with troops. Eir was the tactical mastermind of Destiny’s Edge. Destiny’s Edge could have easily led the Pact.
Re Sylvari: Yep, so the storyline did give sylvari privilege in the Orr storyline and relegate humans to a marginally negligible role when it came to Orr and the holy city of Arah? Good to know.
We just found out that sylvari and the Pale Tree are technically minions of Mordremoth and you are skeptical about how prominent the sylvari will be in this storyline and in the defeat of Mordremoth? Oh, come on. You can’t honestly buy your own bullkitten, do you?
Will Hawkins (Human Guardian)
Feryl Grimsteel (Charr Engineer)
Tarnished Coast
Feryl Grimsteel (Charr Engineer)
Tarnished Coast
(edited by Genesis.8572)
A: And I’m trying to determine whether you do anything other than playing apologetics for the charr and dismissing people’s lore complaints, particularly about the state of humanity, here on the lore forums.
B: Who cares about how good they had it in GW1? What matters is GW2, the actual living game that we are playing now! Let’s talk about the state of humans now. Not back in GW1, but now. It’s about as relevant as discussing the current state of a sports team by reminiscing on how good they had it decades ago during a dynasty. It’s a moot point. A complete topical red herring. What matters is current racial lore development and sufficiently equal treatment of the races. I hope you would be able to grasp that much.
C: Where is the evidence in-game that humans are getting any fight back or showing signs of a remerging ascendance? Please, I’m sincerely asking you. Where is any sign of this? Doing the map heart quests would have suggested that humans are regaining the advantage UNTIL the mid-Season 2 council of racial leaders at the Pale Tree in which Queen Jennah asserts that the centaur are still a serious military threat that continues to attack their doorstep, such that humanity can only contribute non-combatants to the war effort.
D: That’s a bit of a false equivalence. Other races can have backstory without them constantly kittening on humanity, and that’s the issue at stake. But little chance of that when Jeff Grubb loves his asura (just reskinned versions of his Dragonlance gnomes) and Ree Soesbee loves her sylvari.
Will Hawkins (Human Guardian)
Feryl Grimsteel (Charr Engineer)
Tarnished Coast
Feryl Grimsteel (Charr Engineer)
Tarnished Coast
(edited by Genesis.8572)
Isn’t the lessened influence of humanity and Kryta’s struggle to stay relevant a major point of the game’s lore? I see it more as a demonstration of perseverance. Humanity does not have a dominant influence but Kryta is fighting against what unfortunately looked to be an arrogant march into irrelevance. Any prominence is a good thing on the road to increasing relevance.
They took many roads in design to get away from some fantasy tropes, and having the world not revolve around humanity is one of them, I think.
(edited by Zunnar.8503)
We know that the creation of the pact ships are in the capability of charr and asura to make. The airships look mostly like charr Iron Legion tech. And indeed, the prototype airships were of charr design. We have a saturation of evidence regarding charr and asura tech levels. We have seen nothing from humans to suggest that they would be capable of making such a design on their own. So what about the airships would lead anyone to believe that they contributed to those designs apart from a minor blurb? Let’s put it this way, if we did not have that blurb about who designed the airships, which of the five races would you have guessed made it?
Actually, I would think humans had a hand. It’s similar to Charr tech, but IMO, it’s not enough to instantly go “Charr built that thing entirely.”
Have you gotten that strawman out of your system? Ready to get to the discussion at hand? Good. Fact of the matter is that it’s the head of the Durmand Priory. If you are playing a human member of the Priory then it’s your boss who is utterly kittening on your faith. Pokka, the asura from the Cathedral of Silence mission, displays a similarly dismissive attitude towards the human gods as well. It’s demeaning for human players. Has the shoe ever been on the other foot? Not really as far as the GW2 experience is concerned.
Re Cathedral of Silence: AGAIN, it’s asuran tech that has to be used to help humans perform this ritual. And it’s an asura who is constantly being dismissive of human religion in the midst of the quest.
Priestess Rhie: We’ve done it! Praise Grenth.
Pokka: Praise the Eternal Alchemy, you mean. It was my device that summoned that creepy guy in the first place.
From the idol of balthazar "Gixx: To each their own. No matter what power imbues this little trinket, its sufficiency is enough for me! " He doesn’t believe in the gods. He is clear on that. Above line says to me he may not be a fan, but others can believe what they want.
Yes, my point was the Asuran Tech was needed because the ritual was completely lost and unknown. Looking at dialogue, same thing as before. He simply doesn’t believe in the human gods. Not at all shocking for an ASURA. Hell, Trahearne calls the temple Sacred, and the dialogue implies that if the Grenth Priestess wasn’t there, the reaper wouldn’t have responded. So… yeah, the Asura was just being an kitten .. Like most genius Asura. Rhia was explicitly required to be there. His tech allowed them to repeat the ritual, but Rhia was the one who actually summoned the reaper.
The Seventh Reaper: Who dares summon me? A true priest! Is there such a thing in this fallen land?
Trehaerne is a scholar who ArenaNet turned into a “military mastermind.” The only that kept Destiny’s Edge from leading the Orr Offensive was ArenaNet. Both Logan and Rytlock have leadership and combat experience with troops. Eir was the tactical mastermind of Destiny’s Edge. Destiny’s Edge could have easily led the Pact.
Re Sylvari: Yep, so the storyline did give sylvari privilege in the Orr storyline and relegate humans to a marginally negligible role when it came to Orr and the holy city of Arah? Good to know.
We just found out that sylvari and the Pale Tree are technically minions of Mordremoth and you are skeptical about how prominent the sylvari will be in this storyline and in the defeat of Mordremoth? Oh, come on. You can’t honestly buy your own bullkitten, do you?
A: Trahearne actually doesn’t turn into a military mastermind. He consults the commander and others frequently.
B: If you did the Priory or OoW paths, the Pale Reavers never appear.
C: I’m skeptical if we’ll see the Sylvari magically leading the charge and being the primary fighting force against the Modrem, as they apparently were in Orr (Despite the fact I never once saw the Pale Reavers in my Priory and Order of Whispers characters playthroughs in Orr. I know of them from wiki and doing ONE of the vigil missions with a friend). I also noticed plenty of non-sylvari Pact NPCS in events and at the temples, and in the story missions too even.
Just saying, when I played Orr, I didn’t feel like the Sylvari were dominating that arc. Humans maybe didn’t get as much attention as they should, but the Sylvari didn’t overshadow everybody.
Who knows, maybe we’ll see the humans leading the charge. Or the Norn this time.
A: And I’m trying to determine whether you do anything other than playing apologetics for the charr and dismissing people’s lore complaints, particularly about the state of humanity, here on the lore forums.
I present an opposing viewpoint, as somebody who played all of GW1.
B: Who cares about how good they had it in GW1? What matters is GW2, the actual living game that we are playing now! Let’s talk about the state of humans now. Not back in GW1, but now. It’s about as relevant as discussing the current state of a sports team by reminiscing on how good they had it decades ago during a dynasty. It’s a moot point. A complete topical red herring. What matters is current racial lore development and sufficiently equal treatment of the races. I hope you would be able to grasp that much.
Current state of humanity is declined from it’s power and spread of GW1, which is ENTIRELY FREAKING EXPECTED. Orr was destroyed, Ascalon was doomed, and Kryta was the only place left in Tyria. Cantha sealed it’s borders and was cut off by Zhaitan, and Elonia conquered by Joko (which is also ENTIRELY predictable). With the weakened power that is expected from above, Kryta is having issues. ESPECIALLY since we all know the ministry (particularly Caudacus, though some ministers are fine with her) clash with Jennah, at times purposefully weakening Seraph field strength to make her look bad.
C: Where is the evidence in-game that humans are getting any fight back or showing signs of a remerging ascendance? Please, I’m sincerely asking you. Where is any sign of this? Doing the map heart quests would have suggested that humans are regaining the advantage UNTIL the mid-Season 2 council of racial leaders at the Pale Tree in which Queen Jennah asserts that the centaur are still a serious military threat that continues to attack their doorstep, such that humanity can only contribute non-combatants to the war effort.
Centaur war was presented as a back and forth. Kryta’s military strength got boosted heavily when Caudacus was basically placed in house arrest under Jennah, preventing him from doing his kitten to weaken the nation and make Jennah look bad. The hearts (if you take complete state as being how they’d be in the world after Personal story) imply the Centaurs are at least driven back or weakened. Not forever, but for a time. As with all the factions, they are rightfully concerned that diverting too much of their forces would leave them open to assault.
D: That’s a bit of a false equivalence. Other races can have backstory without them constantly kittening on humanity, and that’s the issue at stake. But little chance of that when Jeff Grubb loves his asura (just reskinned versions of his Dragonlance gnomes) and Ree Soesbee loves her sylvari.
Like two Asura who openly and explicitly don’t believe in the human gods, and like Asura, are a bit of a jerk? It’s noted in the lore that Asura think the human gods and norn spirits of the wild are PART of the Eternal Alchemy.
I’m sorry that I see humanity’s weakened state as of GW2 to be expected compared to GW1’s ending. Two nations destroyed, three enslaved, and the last one (Cause they forced Kurzicks and Luxons to merge with the empire) isolated.
Isn’t the lessened influence of humanity and Kryta’s struggle to stay relevant a major point of the game’s lore? I see it more as a demonstration of perseverance. Humanity does not have a dominant influence but Kryta is fighting against what unfortunately looked to be an arrogant march into irrelevance. Any prominence is a good thing on the road to increasing relevance.
They took many roads in design to get away from some fantasy tropes, and having the world not revolve around humanity is one of them, I think.
Indeed. Instead of most settings which are “HUMANITY kitten YEAH!” and Humans shoving everybody else out, now Humans were struggling just to stay on the map. End of Personal story they are better off in several ways, but still not as strong as they once were.
The fact people think humanity should still be one of the most major, driving forces in a world where (as stated above), basically ONE nation is left active and with open borders… I don’t understand it.
I think the current Krytan king during Sea of Sorrows really reflects that attitude, especially with his eventual acceptance of reality.
Actually, I would think humans had a hand. It’s similar to Charr tech, but IMO, it’s not enough to instantly go “Charr built that thing entirely.”
You’re right that I would not say that “Charr built that thing entirely,” as I would say that Charr and Asura built that thing entirely based on their tech.
From the idol of balthazar "Gixx: To each their own. No matter what power imbues this little trinket, its sufficiency is enough for me! " He doesn’t believe in the gods. He is clear on that. Above line says to me he may not be a fan, but others can believe what they want.
He also dismissively refers to Balthazar as the “God of Murder.”
The Seventh Reaper: Who dares summon me? A true priest! Is there such a thing in this fallen land?
That doesn’t imply that she was necessary. It implies that the Reaper was surprised to be summoned by a true priest and that anyone else may have been able to do the ritual.
A: Trahearne actually doesn’t turn into a military mastermind. He consults the commander and others frequently.
B: If you did the Priory or OoW paths, the Pale Reavers never appear.
C: I’m skeptical if we’ll see the Sylvari magically leading the charge and being the primary fighting force against the Modrem, as they apparently were in Orr (Despite the fact I never once saw the Pale Reavers in my Priory and Order of Whispers characters playthroughs in Orr. I know of them from wiki and doing ONE of the vigil missions with a friend). I also noticed plenty of non-sylvari Pact NPCS in events and at the temples, and in the story missions too even.Just saying, when I played Orr, I didn’t feel like the Sylvari were dominating that arc. Humans maybe didn’t get as much attention as they should, but the Sylvari didn’t overshadow everybody.
This may be differences of opinion regarding the Orr storyline, because I felt that they did.
Who knows, maybe we’ll see the humans leading the charge. Or the Norn this time.
I’ll believe it when I see it. But based on what we have seen so far, I’m inclined to think that it’s going to be more of the Sylvari show.
Will Hawkins (Human Guardian)
Feryl Grimsteel (Charr Engineer)
Tarnished Coast
Feryl Grimsteel (Charr Engineer)
Tarnished Coast
Current state of humanity is declined from it’s power and spread of GW1, which is ENTIRELY FREAKING EXPECTED. Orr was destroyed, Ascalon was doomed, and Kryta was the only place left in Tyria. Cantha sealed it’s borders and was cut off by Zhaitan, and Elonia conquered by Joko (which is also ENTIRELY predictable). With the weakened power that is expected from above, Kryta is having issues. ESPECIALLY since we all know the ministry (particularly Caudacus, though some ministers are fine with her) clash with Jennah, at times purposefully weakening Seraph field strength to make her look bad.
Re Centaur: How about answering my question:
C: Where is the evidence in-game that humans are getting any fight back or showing signs of a remerging ascendance? Please, I’m sincerely asking you. Where is any sign of this?
As I said in what you responded to above, those hearts quests don’t really matter. Yes, if we take the Harathi Hinterlands map to be post-Personal Story it would seem that the humans have the advantage on the centaur EXCEPT we are told in Living Story Season 2 that the centaur basically where they were at the start of the human personal story: at the front doorsteps of the human capital.
I’m sorry that I see humanity’s weakened state as of GW2 to be expected compared to GW1’s ending. Two nations destroyed, three enslaved, and the last one (Cause they forced Kurzicks and Luxons to merge with the empire) isolated.
Yes and no. We were told that humans are in a weakened state from their prominent position in GW1. But we were also told that we would see humanity reemerging and prevailing in GW2 from that weakened state. But the emphasis so far has been on humanity sucking in comparison with the other races.
Indeed. Instead of most settings which are “HUMANITY kitten YEAH!” and Humans shoving everybody else out, now Humans were struggling just to stay on the map. End of Personal story they are better off in several ways, but still not as strong as they once were.
Does this mean that humanity is not deserving of its own “HUMANITY kitten YEAH!” moment in GW2?
The fact people think humanity should still be one of the most major, driving forces in a world where (as stated above), basically ONE nation is left active and with open borders… I don’t understand it.
Norn have less territory. Asura have less territory. The Sylvari have less territory. The only nation(s) with more territory are the Charr. Yet humanity is treated like yesterday’s garbage by the story team. I get that they are trying to show humanity’s backs to the wall, but I think they showed too much of it and not enough of humanity successfully standing up on their own two feet without the gods. That is my criticism. We’re not seeing humanity pick itself back up. If all of GW2 is going to be about humanity’s continual decline or repeated falling back, then I would say that ArenaNet’s priorities are kittened up. No one wants to play that and be a part of repeated failures with no hope for success.
Will Hawkins (Human Guardian)
Feryl Grimsteel (Charr Engineer)
Tarnished Coast
Feryl Grimsteel (Charr Engineer)
Tarnished Coast
In Gw1 http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Map-Travel_Inventor we have this terrible part of lore.
LOL Is that for real? That’s hilarious. And I agree terrible.
Obsidian Sky – SoR
I troll because I care
I troll because I care
I’ll look it but, but I recall that Drakes are actually not related to dragons such as Glint or the elder dragons. Remember, GW doesn’t follow typical fantasy creatures exactly. Incubuses are bat like beings. Bats are more like big lizards. What says Drakes are explicitly tied to dragons?
The wiki says drakes are tied to dragons…
That’s not what I asked either. “Magic being around” is not a direct act of the gods during that period. Sure, it was released by them perhaps, but it’s not like to cast lightning I HAVE to pray to Dwayna. Balthazar doesn’t personally spawn every fireball thrown. The way I took your statement was as if GW2 literally kicked the gods to the curb and in GW1 they were actively involved in the world. Which they really weren’t. FoW and UW is about the most, and that’s simply spawning a portal.
FoW and UW were supposed to be Balthazars and Grenths personal realm in the Mists. And it’s not a direct link like an AD&D cleric praying to his deity, but it is similar. The gods gave magic to Tyria(most of it anyway), and then curtailed its use because of Doric’s plee and split magic into 4 schools to limit its destructive power. Basically, every time you cast a spell in GW1 it was because the gods let you.
You are arguing semantics. When I say “Human gods” I OBVIOUSLY refer to the SIX GODS, who directly tie to HUMANITY. Not that they ARE HUMAN. But they are the GODS OF THE HUMANS.
They were the gods of everyone on Tyria, whether they believed in them or not. Why? Because they gave magic to the world that everyone used equally, Charr, human, and Aloe alike. Oh and there were no other gods in Tyria…until GW2. I’m sure humanity never mentions it because of that whole “human bias” cop-out.
Obsidian Sky – SoR
I troll because I care
I troll because I care
D: That’s a bit of a false equivalence. Other races can have backstory without them constantly kittening on humanity, and that’s the issue at stake. But little chance of that when Jeff Grubb loves his asura (just reskinned versions of his Dragonlance gnomes) and Ree Soesbee loves her sylvari.
Jeff also birthed the Spelljammer AD&D setting. Reading up on that also helps to explain the Eternal Alchemy better and “modern” GW2 magic.
Ree helped with the Norn too I think, I could be wrong. She’s been really off the grid for a few years…
Obsidian Sky – SoR
I troll because I care
I troll because I care
I’ll believe it when I see it. But based on what we have seen so far, I’m inclined to think that it’s going to be more of the Sylvari show.
ANet can’t afford to be as unwavering as they were around launch. Given that they threw humans a small bone with the Ascension rituals redux, I’d bet they continue to throw out bigger and bigger bones if the playerbase whines enough about that.
that last sentence sounded weird. :/
Obsidian Sky – SoR
I troll because I care
I troll because I care
(edited by Obsidian.1328)
Given that they threw humans a small bone with the Ascension rituals redux, I’d bet they continue to throw out bigger and bigger bones if the playerbase whines enough about that.
that last sentence sound weird. :/
Future Guardian Elite spec: Bonethrower; uses a dagger (boning knife) and can summon the skeletons of the unrighteous, which serve as minions. Or maybe bonewhiner. I can’t decide, both are so good.
The table is a fable.
I’ll look it but, but I recall that Drakes are actually not related to dragons such as Glint or the elder dragons. Remember, GW doesn’t follow typical fantasy creatures exactly. Incubuses are bat like beings. Bats are more like big lizards. What says Drakes are explicitly tied to dragons?
The wiki says drakes are tied to dragons…
That’s not what I asked either. “Magic being around” is not a direct act of the gods during that period. Sure, it was released by them perhaps, but it’s not like to cast lightning I HAVE to pray to Dwayna. Balthazar doesn’t personally spawn every fireball thrown. The way I took your statement was as if GW2 literally kicked the gods to the curb and in GW1 they were actively involved in the world. Which they really weren’t. FoW and UW is about the most, and that’s simply spawning a portal.
FoW and UW were supposed to be Balthazars and Grenths personal realm in the Mists. And it’s not a direct link like an AD&D cleric praying to his deity, but it is similar. The gods gave magic to Tyria(most of it anyway), and then curtailed its use because of Doric’s plee and split magic into 4 schools to limit its destructive power. Basically, every time you cast a spell in GW1 it was because the gods let you.
You are arguing semantics. When I say “Human gods” I OBVIOUSLY refer to the SIX GODS, who directly tie to HUMANITY. Not that they ARE HUMAN. But they are the GODS OF THE HUMANS.
They were the gods of everyone on Tyria, whether they believed in them or not. Why? Because they gave magic to the world that everyone used equally, Charr, human, and Aloe alike. Oh and there were no other gods in Tyria…until GW2. I’m sure humanity never mentions it because of that whole “human bias” cop-out.
Gave magic is not a good way of saying that they realised some from the bloodstone.
“Kentigem”-chief. Born cycle of Dusk. Wyld Hunt:
Learn as much mending and medical info as possible so that it can be added to the Dream.
Become the first Chief of Mending and guide the newly awaken as well as those who want to learn.
Learn as much mending and medical info as possible so that it can be added to the Dream.
Become the first Chief of Mending and guide the newly awaken as well as those who want to learn.
Gave magic is not a good way of saying that they realised some from the bloodstone.
/shrug
If I pour wine into a cup, and then give you the cup, would you say the cup gave you wine?
Obsidian Sky – SoR
I troll because I care
I troll because I care
Re Centaur: How about answering my question:
C: Where is the evidence in-game that humans are getting any fight back or showing signs of a remerging ascendance? Please, I’m sincerely asking you. Where is any sign of this?
As I said in what you responded to above, those hearts quests don’t really matter. Yes, if we take the Harathi Hinterlands map to be post-Personal Story it would seem that the humans have the advantage on the centaur EXCEPT we are told in Living Story Season 2 that the centaur basically where they were at the start of the human personal story: at the front doorsteps of the human capital.
Because that war is described as going back and forth? “Right up to our doorstep” is very vague. Given how in the hearts we push them back and kill their war leaders, and the Pavilion is a celebration and testament to humanity.
“The Crown Pavilion was once the The Great Collapse area, but was transformed in to a gladiatorial arena in honor of Queen Jennah’s jubilee and as a celebration of the human spirit to fight and endure. "
If the war was going so badly, I doubt she would’ve sent the balloons everywhere and threw such a party. The Norn and Charr concerns at the Summit are basically the same thing.
“We have foes just waiting for our defenses to weaken to try to attack us.” Jennah simply worded her statement differently.
I’m sorry that I see humanity’s weakened state as of GW2 to be expected compared to GW1’s ending. Two nations destroyed, three enslaved, and the last one (Cause they forced Kurzicks and Luxons to merge with the empire) isolated.
Yes and no. We were told that humans are in a weakened state from their prominent position in GW1. But we were also told that we would see humanity reemerging and prevailing in GW2 from that weakened state. But the emphasis so far has been on humanity sucking in comparison with the other races.
I’ll agree perhaps we don’t see humanity kicking kitten (though the Crown Pavilion celebrates humanity surviving.), but I disagree that they are shown to completely suck against other races. I think we should leave that at that.
Indeed. Instead of most settings which are “HUMANITY kitten YEAH!” and Humans shoving everybody else out, now Humans were struggling just to stay on the map. End of Personal story they are better off in several ways, but still not as strong as they once were.
Does this mean that humanity is not deserving of its own “HUMANITY kitten YEAH!” moment in GW2?
Moment, sure. Constant moments and storylines? Nah.
Norn have less territory. Asura have less territory. The Sylvari have less territory. The only nation(s) with more territory are the Charr. Yet humanity is treated like yesterday’s garbage by the story team. I get that they are trying to show humanity’s backs to the wall, but I think they showed too much of it and not enough of humanity successfully standing up on their own two feet without the gods. That is my criticism. We’re not seeing humanity pick itself back up. If all of GW2 is going to be about humanity’s continual decline or repeated falling back, then I would say that ArenaNet’s priorities are kittened up. No one wants to play that and be a part of repeated failures with no hope for success.
Norn have no government, and are spread out across most of the playable shiverpeaks with homesteads. “Territory” isn’t really a huge deal with them.
Asura have a fair bit, but make up for lack of territory with advanced magi-tech. Also they seem to favor building underground or vertical lab complexes.
Charr, as we have seen (Iron Legion holdings, Blood and Ash controlled lands seem to be a non-factor in most cases) hold Ascalon. The ones we play as and deal with work from Ascalon, so equal holdings to humanity.
That aside, I play as a human necromancer being my Main who I’ve done all personal and living story with. I don’t feel like humanity is being treated like kitten and lesser then everything else in all thing storywise. Weakened, and forced to rebuild compared to others simply BUILDING, yes.
IMO, for Humanity to truly step forward and advance, Caudacus and the hostile Ministers to Jennah HAVE to be dealt with for good. The infighting caused by that which not only weakens the Government, but as shown in the human personal story, extends to literally weakening the military forces on the field, is not good. It’s lessened since the CM dungeon storymode, but we don’t know if he’s been let go to return home of if he’s still living with Jennah so to speak.
As somebody said before. If they advanced the world, a lot of zones would have less content/combat stuff to do. Hard to have humanity rising from the ashes and securing Kryta without wiping out much of the hearts in the area.
I’ll look it but, but I recall that Drakes are actually not related to dragons such as Glint or the elder dragons. Remember, GW doesn’t follow typical fantasy creatures exactly. Incubuses are bat like beings. Bats are more like big lizards. What says Drakes are explicitly tied to dragons?
The wiki says drakes are tied to dragons…
Yeah, but perhaps the statement was drakes aren’t tied to Elder Dragons species-wise.
FoW and UW were supposed to be Balthazars and Grenths personal realm in the Mists. And it’s not a direct link like an AD&D cleric praying to his deity, but it is similar. The gods gave magic to Tyria(most of it anyway), and then curtailed its use because of Doric’s plee and split magic into 4 schools to limit its destructive power. Basically, every time you cast a spell in GW1 it was because the gods let you.
Yeah, but those realms weren’t touched on in the storylines. It was something you could do.
IMO, there is a difference between “Balthazar gave fire magic to the world” and “Balthazar personally approves each fireball.” One is something they did, the other is direct involvement. The gods were not directly involved with the world. Giving magic is ancient history in Tyria.
You are arguing semantics. When I say “Human gods” I OBVIOUSLY refer to the SIX GODS, who directly tie to HUMANITY. Not that they ARE HUMAN. But they are the GODS OF THE HUMANS.
They were the gods of everyone on Tyria, whether they believed in them or not. Why? Because they gave magic to the world that everyone used equally, Charr, human, and Aloe alike. Oh and there were no other gods in Tyria…until GW2. I’m sure humanity never mentions it because of that whole “human bias” cop-out.
Yet we know they weren’t worshipped by Tengu. And only humans ended up in the UW. (Other races appeared in Realm of Torment, but that was because of Abbaddon’s touch, not belief). Hell, as far as we know, only humans go to Grenth STILL. How can Grenth be the world’s god of Death if he only deals with the souls of humans?
- Gavin’s death at the end of the White Stag storyline, and him being forgotten afterwards.
- Why didn’t Caithe and Trahearne think to take Malyck to see the Pale Tree at all? She could’ve looked into thee Dream herself, or into his memory to see the exact spot we needed to go to, and this would’ve probably helped stop the Knight of Embers from finding out too.
- And we never see Malyck or get mention of him/his tree or people after this storyline is over.
- The way Trahearne is inserted into the story at Claw Island. He himself is not a bad character, but they really needed to do more to make him not come out of nowhere at Claw Island.
- Demmi Beetlestone being unimportant to the plot after her rescue. I kinda hoped she’d become our partner, with us being the mentor like Tybalt was before he died, but nope, she just hangs out in the Chantry of Secrets after that.
- Our mentors’ deaths. With the exception of maybe Forgal’s, they really felt pointless.
- Trahearne summoning 5 flesh golems and a shade to break through a Risen trap, and then never doing that again, ever.
- Scarlet Briar, the Invasive Weed of Living Story Season 1. Even after death, she still haunts us via a terrible Twilight Arbor path, which replaced a previous one, and a disappointing/annoying fractal.
Caithe’s sudden yet predicable betrayal, along with her just not telling anyone her plan for no reason at all, as well as the Seeds of Truth/Point of No Return revealing that she was a complete idiot for ever seeing anything in Faolain at all.
- The stupid “reveal” at the end. “We came from the Jungle Dragon cause my Dream said so.”
“Wynne was the first Night bloom, which somehow explains why only she got this Dream when no one else did ever for all this time, even though that disregards how we thought the Dream worked.”
“I now know that Wynne considered her Wyld Hunt to be protecting us from this information. In hindsight, she did an incredibly poor job of that.”
- And to think, they allegedly had this reveal planned ever since the beginning…yet they still didn’t do it well. I guess all that time wasted on Scarlet may be to blame.
Yeah, but perhaps the statement was drakes aren’t tied to Elder Dragons species-wise.
The statement wasn’t that. The question was did GW1 already have a healthy “draconic” representation.
Yeah, but those realms weren’t touched on in the storylines. It was something you could do.
IMO, there is a difference between “Balthazar gave fire magic to the world” and “Balthazar personally approves each fireball.” One is something they did, the other is direct involvement. The gods were not directly involved with the world. Giving magic is ancient history in Tyria.
That’s also not the question. Your original question was “were they present for much?” They were, just not directly standing in front of you like you mention. It would be rather silly if a god had an active, physical role in the storyline, don’t you think?
Yet we know they weren’t worshipped by Tengu. And only humans ended up in the UW. (Other races appeared in Realm of Torment, but that was because of Abbaddon’s touch, not belief). Hell, as far as we know, only humans go to Grenth STILL. How can Grenth be the world’s god of Death if he only deals with the souls of humans?
I didn’t say they had to be worshiped to be legitimate. The Tengu worshiped their Sky but they were granted magical powers by the Six.
I can’t speak on the UW, that’s actually a good point. Perhaps the writers saw no reason to include non-PC races in there intially? I don’t know. All of that was created before Asura, Norn, and Sylvari were even a thing, so I’m not sure they saw the need to make sure the UW was populated with all the disparate races on the planet.
But it’s still a very good point, I’ll do some research on it. :-)
Obsidian Sky – SoR
I troll because I care
I troll because I care
(edited by Obsidian.1328)
Who used illusions to hide the Tower of Nightmares still keep bugging me
9 Guardians later…
Where are all the horses? There’s several references to horses being made in GW1 and GW2 (Necrid horseman, Iron horse mines, centaurs…) and yet I can’t find a single horse in either game. Why couldn’t they just make them ambient creatures like rabbits and birds, but in farms or grasslands?
Server: Darkhaven
Main: Diakana
Alt: Kitana the Huntress, Illyune
Main: Diakana
Alt: Kitana the Huntress, Illyune
Where are all the horses? There’s several references to horses being made in GW1 and GW2 (Necrid horseman, Iron horse mines, centaurs…) and yet I can’t find a single horse in either game. Why couldn’t they just make them ambient creatures like rabbits and birds, but in farms or grasslands?
To avoid the screams of “HORSE MOUNTS NAOW PLEASE?”
also in GW1, Saul was rode out of Kryta when he was exiled, and dumped in the jungle. So that’s another thing for horses.
GW2 has all those fancy carriages around, and people mention ponies. And the jousting toys. It’s a case of they exist in the lore, but don’t appear ingame sadly.
What really bothers me are the location of the elder dragons.
They are all very close to eachother, and none is neither in Cantha nor in Elona. They are in Depths of Tyria, Far Shiverpeaks, Ruins of Orr, Dragonbrand, Heart of Maguuma and the last one at a random spot in the ocean. The world is so large but all of them are so close? Really?
Knowing this and knowing that GW2 is all about killing dragons really gives me a feeling we will never see Elona and Cantha again in any future expansion. Silly.
What really bothers me are the location of the elder dragons.
They are all very close to eachother, and none is neither in Cantha nor in Elona. They are in Depths of Tyria, Far Shiverpeaks, Ruins of Orr, Dragonbrand, Heart of Maguuma and the last one at a random spot in the ocean. The world is so large but all of them are so close? Really?Knowing this and knowing that GW2 is all about killing dragons really gives me a feeling we will never see Elona and Cantha again in any future expansion. Silly.
This is shear optimism in favor of seeing Cantha or Elona eventually.
Even though the elder dragons are close together now, doesn’t mean that they couldn’t eventually move to new areas. I don’t have any basis for motivation for this, but it would be an interesting plot device to have one of them have a change of their current status quo and decide to go to either other continent forcing the player character to deal with them there.
Just a hopeful thought :-)
What really bothers me are the location of the elder dragons.
They are all very close to eachother, and none is neither in Cantha nor in Elona. They are in Depths of Tyria, Far Shiverpeaks, Ruins of Orr, Dragonbrand, Heart of Maguuma and the last one at a random spot in the ocean. The world is so large but all of them are so close? Really?Knowing this and knowing that GW2 is all about killing dragons really gives me a feeling we will never see Elona and Cantha again in any future expansion. Silly.
With Kralkatorrik in the Crystal Desert, Elona could potentially come back. Cantha would be harder to reincorporate with solely dragons in mind, but if it were, I’d imagine the deep sea dragon would be involved.
Primordus woke in the Depths beneath the northern shivpereaks, but we don’t know where he is now.
Kralkatorrik awoke in the Blood Legion Homelands, but we don’t know where he is now. He is, in fact, NOT in the Dragonbrand – at the end of Edge of Destiny, he flew away from the battlefield that marks the southernmost end of the Dragonbrand into an unknown direction/destination; years later, the Zephyrites returned to that battlefield and retrieved Glint’s corpse, without interaction of Kralkatorrik or branded as far as we know. Unlike Primordus, we can make a guess that Kralkatorrik is either in Elona, or just north of Elona, however because the branded creatures are traveling south by southeast up in Ascalon – often trying to leave the brand in Fields of Ruin where it curves back west. In Edge of Destiny, the minions created then had pretty much two goals in mind: 1) Reach Kralkatorrik, 2) Kill/Corrupt all in their way to reaching Kralkatorrik
I would like to note that while Jormag is now in the Far Shiverpeaks, he did not wake there but woke further north (unless of course the Far Shiverpeaks reach towards the arctic coast which is roughly where he woke – presumably. Jormag’s timeline when waking is a bit weird, truth be told. We’re told he did a number of things when he woke – shattered the far shiverpeaks, topsized and scattered the kodan icebergs, and forced the norn south; the last one while often said to be in the same year Jormag woke in the books timeline is stated to have happened 4 years after he woke by NPCs in-game, and he’s constantly stating to be forcing south steadily (some NPCs say he was as far south as where Owl Lodge is when the norn were fleeing south, but in all honesty I find that hard to believe that he would fly so far south just to retreat north and then only steadily head south again). TL;DR Jormag didn’t wake up in sub-continental Tyria, but closer to the Furious Stretch or Icy Trundra
In short:
While four of the six Elder Dragons awoke within subcontinent Tyria, there’s no indication that two of them remained, while we have one of the two that weren’t heading towards subcontinent Tyria.
I could go into more about the indicated history of the Elder Dragons’ presence during the last dragonrise, to help explain why it seems so many dragons are close to subcontinent Tyria (and in turn, why two left), but that’s off-topic.
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Simple answer for why the dragons seem to be centered around the Tyrian subcontinent would be that that’s where the last resistance – the elder races – were, before going into hiding and sealing away the ambient magic. Since the dragons had most likely eaten all they could elsewhere by that point, they were centered around the last source of food for them. When that was gone, they remained there and went into slumber.
Only fools and heroes charge in without a plan.
What bothers me the most about the story is the supreme lack of tension. I find myself unable to care about most of the recent characters and their issues. This seems to stem from a few things.
First, there have been a lot of characters introduced out of literal nowhere that players were expected to sympathize with, and want to be around, for no other reason than “these are the good guys, love them”. Trahearne, Kasmeer (and all of Destiny’s Child, for that matter), and the Zephyr-whomevers could all be replaced by cardboard cutouts and it wouldn’t really matter. These characters don’t consistently do anything useful that couldn’t be done by a squad of random soldiers, because there are just too many people with names claiming that I’m their “friend” or “boss”. To choose two at random, if Braham and Marjorie both died in the next patch, the war effort would not suffer at all, and I wouldn’t really care. I don’t know these people. I’ve slaughtered thousands, I should listen to your mommy issues why? Your special power is that you’re huge and stupid, Braham. I can pick any soldier off the line for that.
Second, there is very little tension to the overarching story itself. The Pact is, at this point, a powerful war machine. The part of the story where it became that, I thought was pretty cool. The problem with that is that the audience now has an expectation that the full power of that machine will be brought out every time. The Avengers suffered from this. It was cool to watch all their origins, and how they all gathered together into an unstoppable force, but at that point, the conflict stopped being “will the good guys win?” and became “by what degree will the good guys win?”. A united force of heroes is great for the climax of a story, but its not sustainable. It gets boring VERY fast. I can point back to superhero movies again here, but I won’t.
So, TL:DR, I think the devs need to get their Game of Thrones on, hedge the superfluous character tree a bit, assassinate Trahearne, break up the Pact and get some civil war between the Orders or something, because the black and white hero-slays-dragon-the-end story got old a long time ago.
What bothers me the most about the story is the supreme lack of tension. I find myself unable to care about most of the recent characters and their issues. This seems to stem from a few things.
First, there have been a lot of characters introduced out of literal nowhere that players were expected to sympathize with, and want to be around, for no other reason than “these are the good guys, love them”. Trahearne, Kasmeer (and all of Destiny’s Child, for that matter), and the Zephyr-whomevers could all be replaced by cardboard cutouts and it wouldn’t really matter. These characters don’t consistently do anything useful that couldn’t be done by a squad of random soldiers, because there are just too many people with names claiming that I’m their “friend” or “boss”. To choose two at random, if Braham and Marjorie both died in the next patch, the war effort would not suffer at all, and I wouldn’t really care. I don’t know these people. I’ve slaughtered thousands, I should listen to your mommy issues why? Your special power is that you’re huge and stupid, Braham. I can pick any soldier off the line for that.
Second, there is very little tension to the overarching story itself. The Pact is, at this point, a powerful war machine. The part of the story where it became that, I thought was pretty cool. The problem with that is that the audience now has an expectation that the full power of that machine will be brought out every time. The Avengers suffered from this. It was cool to watch all their origins, and how they all gathered together into an unstoppable force, but at that point, the conflict stopped being “will the good guys win?” and became “by what degree will the good guys win?”. A united force of heroes is great for the climax of a story, but its not sustainable. It gets boring VERY fast. I can point back to superhero movies again here, but I won’t.
So, TL:DR, I think the devs need to get their Game of Thrones on, hedge the superfluous character tree a bit, assassinate Trahearne, break up the Pact and get some civil war between the Orders or something, because the black and white hero-slays-dragon-the-end story got old a long time ago.
What is this unstoppable force you speak of? The Pact fleet got rekt big time when mordy just tickled some cabbage brains and sent a few vines up in the sky.
So, TL:DR, I think the devs need to get their Game of Thrones on, hedge the superfluous character tree a bit, assassinate Trahearne, break up the Pact and get some civil war between the Orders or something, because the black and white hero-slays-dragon-the-end story got old a long time ago.
Yes, please yes! I want to love the lore so much but it feels so childish and corny and I know it’s storytelling done in a different way but we need more conflicts between the factions that we encounter. The world is huge but it feels so small because everybody has the same goal: defeat the dragons. I want Divinity’s Reach to start a campaign against the centaurs. I want the Durmand Priory to fund an expedition beyond the current know borders of the world. I want the Order of Whispers to spy on the Consortium ( just some examples. I’m sure ANet can come up with better things). The local small skirmishes are so small and unimportant I don’t even care about them and I am a lore freak. I loved the Warcraft lore so much even though I hate WoW and this says something about their writers. I really hope they get things done because GW2 is an amazing game.