Guild Wars 2

I think you’re misunderstanding something here. The Karka event occurring Post-Zhaitan doesn’t make anybody’s personal story “non-canon”; the same rule applies as always applied, which is, your own story is the canon for you, while my personal story is the canon for me.

So, GW1 had to do this as well, because technically, with the expansions, you were further in the future, and so were doing events that were ‘in the past’. The problem with an MMO, is the fact that YOU aren’t the only one doing the story, so it would be impossible for them to tailor it that way. Unfortunately, the only way to get that complete experience, is either create your own story, which a lot of RP types do, or play a single-player RPG like that one with the Dragon Born in it.

“So a one-time event that occurred in the persistent world was the signal that Zhaitan was, officially, dead as far as the plot of GW2 was concerned. All the players who hadn’t fought Zhaitan before then in their personal stories, their stories can’t be considered canon because it was happening after Lost Shores”

I facepalmed so hard at this. I don’t mean to attack you personally, but you seem incredibly pretentious here.
Yes the story has a canonic timeline, as did GW1. When you play it, you play that part of the timeline. And now don’t tell me this immersion breaking. How hard is it to think of the personal story stuff to be something that happend before the Lost Shore event.
Let me give you an example. I played Prophecies and then Nightfall and Eye of the North and only after that Factions. And during that time I shifted my main char from ranger to dervish, so I re-did all the prophecies stuff with my dervish. So timeline wise that would be all over the place, but you know what, in my head I just pretended that it happened in the correct order.

I’m sorry but if you want never anything actually important to happen in the timeline only because you can’t play it when it’s first released, than why should the game have a plot at all?
The worlds not revolving around you, learn to live with the canonical timeline as it’s shown in the game or don’t.

I can only echo what Neilos and BuddhaKeks said – also: please don’t restart the multi-page long discussion seen here – it was annoying the first time.

To summarize it all: Events, regardless of when or the order you play them, have a set place in the GW timeline – one way to view it is that you’re just witnessing events that took place at a different timeframe than the “present” (like, for example, how in GW1 there was the Bonus Mission Pack which let you witness events that took place prior to the game).

So yes, Zhaitan dies before the Ancient Karka dies. However, when you go fight him is still when he’s killed officially. Even if you play that dungeon 100 times, he only dies once.

If you want to roleplay that he died and you didn’t kill him, be our guest. If you want to roleplay that you were there during the battle, be our guest. Both work, since it’s roleplaying and the boundaries are pretty wide in making your characters’ story (since it doesn’t have to follow the game’s personal story per say, just the overall lore).

Not sure if you are a roleplayer, or if you have any experience with group roleplay, but when there are several players playing together, there can be only ONE canon. That’s why roleplayers always rave so much about canon. Because if your story is canon for you and mine is for me, then we can’t play together; if I can decide to play a god that created the world and you do the same, who is right when we play together?

What OP describes is single player environment. Then our worlds are entirely separate and what happened in your “reality” doesn’t necessarily happen in mine. That applies only for single player games and when specifically playing in a “sharded” setting or alternate realities, which again has to be explicitly part of larger canon, and in GW2 it isn’t.

GW2 messed things up by forcing players to spend much of their time playing together in a single, non-instanced and continuous world and yet also creating a contradictory situation where some players killed a major world boss and some didn’t but still can. Hence all the logical issues with what is canon and when.

In situations like that, a roleplayer is usually forced to choose the path that offers the fewest problems, is most logically consistent and requires least amount of suspension of disbelief. In this case it is roleplaying that Zhaitan isn’t dead (since virtually all of open world NPC’s say so) and simply ignoring the personal storyline.

To a roleplayer, the personal storyline isn’t very attractive anyway, since it forces your character development away from what you might want, and it doesn’t apply when roleplaying with others, so it’s kinda useless except for personal entertainment.

sigh Let’s not start the whole issue of the “contradictory” (ignoring the misuse of the word) again.

Yes, I have met roleplayers, and a group of roleplayers, and it does get tricky when you create your own story – or, god forbid, everyone claims to be the one individual hero who saved the world in the same situation. (Side note: when I said “just the overall lore” I meant that you can’t openly play a god who created the world without issues with other roleplayers).

Typically, roleplayers I know do ignore personal story for their characters’ stories – I do too, though I don’t roleplay I do enjoy giving my characters backgrounds and personalities, which don’t work with the personal story. As such, it is my stance – and the stance of the roleplayers I know – to ignore what the NPCs say at present unless it’s meant as real-time (e.g., you’re roleplaying in the time the actions and sayings are happening), but always acknowledge that it’s said (e.g., it’s either present or past) – it’s all up to the roleplayers themselves to set up the rules around the roleplaying. That’s how I was introduced into the world of roleplaying, even in these kinds of games.

But yes, it is canon that Zhaitan dies before the karka come about. Whether or not your character was there for Zhaitan’s death is, as I said, completely up to the roleplayer – those who limit themselves to what they’ve played as being their characters’ experience have a very poor imagination.

I kept getting into problems that Zhiatan wasn’t dead as people needed solid lore evidence that he was. I based my RP on a mix of canon lore and stuff I made up that fit into the time line perfectly. The whole idea was that my Ele had to defeat Zhaitan to save her Noble house from a curse brought upon her husband, who was killed by Zhaitan’s minions long before release (like the GW book series part of the timeline as she is 40 years old in the game).

So when it came to her saying in character that Zhaitan was finally defeated by the Pact (during or post lost shores) in the Maiden’s Whisper tavern and that she finally redeemed her self and her family, blah blah, I get OOC complaints that he is not dead when in fact Lost shores was already done and over with and I already deduced before anyone that this was the case. I’m only playing according to the cannon that she follows it nearly exactly (as far as what the pact does and her order does). I don’t really follow everything exactly, but I try to not pull things out of my behind that don’t fit GW 2’s universe. Now everyone plays that Zhaitan is indeed dead thanks to what the Devs said in that other thread and concrete evidence.

So for me, I used the personal story’s progress as her personal progression (from induction into the vigil on) as a character in RP to finally leading the PACT to victory as one of the many heroes that defeated him.

I don’t limit my RP to just whats given to us nor do I just make kitten up that doesn’t belong I find a balance on both ends.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

sigh Let’s not start the whole issue of the “contradictory” (ignoring the misuse of the word) again.

Yes, I have met roleplayers, and a group of roleplayers, and it does get tricky when you create your own story – or, god forbid, everyone claims to be the one individual hero who saved the world in the same situation. (Side note: when I said “just the overall lore” I meant that you can’t openly play a god who created the world without issues with other roleplayers).

Typically, roleplayers I know do ignore personal story for their characters’ stories – I do too, though I don’t roleplay I do enjoy giving my characters backgrounds and personalities, which don’t work with the personal story. As such, it is my stance – and the stance of the roleplayers I know – to ignore what the NPCs say at present unless it’s meant as real-time (e.g., you’re roleplaying in the time the actions and sayings are happening), but always acknowledge that it’s said (e.g., it’s either present or past) – it’s all up to the roleplayers themselves to set up the rules around the roleplaying. That’s how I was introduced into the world of roleplaying, even in these kinds of games.

But yes, it is canon that Zhaitan dies before the karka come about. Whether or not your character was there for Zhaitan’s death is, as I said, completely up to the roleplayer – those who limit themselves to what they’ve played as being their characters’ experience have a very poor imagination.

That’s also how I was introduced to the roleplaying world. For me, Zhaitan is and will always be dead. Also, since I have choosen for my characters not to play a significant role in the Elder Dragon’s actual defeat, I have no problem ignoring the open world. Limitation based on game play pretty much ruins most RP stories anyway.

Hmmm. To add to the things above.

I might be old. But when I grew up there was just Star Wars 4, 5 and 6. one could argue that 1,2 and 3 are less then 4, 5 and 6 (and I agree) but thats definitly not cause I know how the story ends.

Good luck RPing in Orr then, where every second NPC voices their opinion about a very much alive Zhaitan aloud. Lots of stuff to ignore. It is possible to RP that Zhaitan is dead in other areas where he isn’t mentioned by the NPCs and in areas that canonically (if that word can even be used properly for the mess devs created) come after his defeat, such as the Cove. But you can’t RP that he is dead in one area and that he isn’t in another.

So the safest route is to just ignore the personal storyline altogether and take the game world as it was at zero hour (game launch). Most of the world supports it, you will not run into any in-your-face stuff to ignore… areas that come after Zhaitan will simply have no risen, which can be explained in various consistent ways, and if you feel like pursuing your story for other dragons, you will be able to since ANet won’t make defeating Zhaitan mandatory if you want to go after Jormag or another elder dragon.

But in the end, the result will be the same if they do it like they did Zhaitan – personal story, at least parts of it, will have to be ignored for the sake of consistency, which mostly includes the ending where the elder dragons are defeated.

It may make the game too much of a hassle to really RP in, after a few years. But to be honest, right now GW2 isn’t that RP friendly to begin with… I mean, friggin’ WOW has more roleplaying tools!

Still, the optimist in me hopes they’ll be more innovative with later dragons and give us RPers a few more toys to have fun with.

Who are you to say what another person can or cannot RP? In the RP world that’s godmodding to suit your own views. Just because you can’t be kittened to say he’s already defeated doesn’t mean someone else has to say that as well. Furthermore, I’m not RPing with the NPCs, I’m RPing with other players, so I can choose to ignore them. That is simply a mechanics issue for me.

WarriorOfAsgard.3705:

Who are you to say what another person can or cannot RP? In the RP world that’s godmodding to suit your own views. Just because you can’t be kittened to say he’s already defeated doesn’t mean someone else has to say that as well. Furthermore, I’m not RPing with the NPCs, I’m RPing with other players, so I can choose to ignore them. That is simply a mechanics issue for me.

Was about to write the same.

@ Gaudrath: I don’t RP myself, but I know people who do and they have no problem with the game as it is, because they use their imagination, something you should be able to do too if you claim to be one. Otherwise, I think the majority of the community hardly cares about you not being able to RP, because the game is not RP friendly. In other words, I’m going to ignore future “it breaks my immersion QQ!” posts. They have nothing to do with lore anyway.

WarriorOfAsgard.3705:

Who are you to say what another person can or cannot RP? In the RP world that’s godmodding to suit your own views. Just because you can’t be kittened to say he’s already defeated doesn’t mean someone else has to say that as well. Furthermore, I’m not RPing with the NPCs, I’m RPing with other players, so I can choose to ignore them. That is simply a mechanics issue for me.

Who said anything about me? You can’t roleplay that Zhaitan is dead in Orr when the Pact is yelling about cleansing temples of Zhaitan’s corruption in your ear or assaulting the gates of Arrah.

THE GAME says what you can and cannot roleplay. And the game in Orr says Zhaitan is alive.
Sure, you can ignore that. But go down that route and the game world doesn’t mean anything anymore. I can roleplay a Jedi then, or Superman – nothing in the game world supports that, in fact the game world goes against such notions, but hey, we’re not letting that stop us, eh?

BuddhaKeks, the point isn’t that I am QQ-ing, in fact I have a very consistent and belieavable character constructed around lore which I enjoy. The point is that it looks like some people, including it seems ANet, don’t get how MMO lore works.

You cannot have an inconsistent open world. You cannot create canon with paradoxes – it’s a poor canon then.
GW1 got away without creating too many paradoxical situations because there was no open world. There were instances and common hubs. You did the pre-searing, and after you were done, it was gone for you. Someone else who still had to go through it could, but not with you next to them.

But GW2 tries to have an open world AND keep the highly scripted story progression from GW1, and you just can’t do that.
Or better said, you can, but then you’re doing it wrong. You can claim otherwise all you want, but you are still doing it wrong. End of discussion.

BuddhaKeks.4857:

WarriorOfAsgard.3705:

Who are you to say what another person can or cannot RP? In the RP world that’s godmodding to suit your own views. Just because you can’t be kittened to say he’s already defeated doesn’t mean someone else has to say that as well. Furthermore, I’m not RPing with the NPCs, I’m RPing with other players, so I can choose to ignore them. That is simply a mechanics issue for me.

Was about to write the same.

@ Gaudrath: I don’t RP myself, but I know people who do and they have no problem with the game as it is, because they use their imagination, something you should be able to do too if you claim to be one. Otherwise, I think the majority of the community hardly cares about you not being able to RP, because the game is not RP friendly. In other words, I’m going to ignore future “it breaks my immersion QQ!” posts. They have nothing to do with lore anyway.

Good to know I’m not the only one

All I can say is, I pity your dungeon master. :P

Zhaitan isn’t dead.

1. He just falls
2. We only have about 75% of the island discovered, there is still a part of Orr we can’t go into
3. If the Developers don’t take advantage of the lore being Palwa Jokos undead legions vs Zhaitan’s undead legions and let us see that in a hopefully Elona expansion, they are fools.

Gaudrath.6725:

You cannot have an inconsistent open world. You cannot create canon with paradoxes – it’s a poor canon then.

There is no ‘inconsistent open world’, and stating it as fact and saying ‘end of discussion’ doesn’t make it so! This was never about inconsistencies in the world, and always about mistaking a mechanic for lore.

Neilos Tyrhanos.5427:

Gaudrath.6725:

You cannot have an inconsistent open world. You cannot create canon with paradoxes – it’s a poor canon then.

There is no ‘inconsistent open world’, and stating it as fact and saying ‘end of discussion’ doesn’t make it so! This was never about inconsistencies in the world, and always about mistaking a mechanic for lore.

You just don’t get it, I can’t help you. Either this is your first MMO, or you’re not a roleplayer and don’t even get what canon and lore mean. You cannot have “lore” which allows for two contradictory versions of reality to coexist in the same time and space. Which happens every time a player kills Zhaitan and steps out into open world Orr.

That’s not lore, that’s a mistake. ANet just really dropped the ball on that one.

The problem is, to fit your expectations they would either have to make it so that nobody can fight dragons in their story ever, only the first group to kill that dragon in the entire game would be allowed to do so, or put them on a cooldown and say “Oh, whoops, he’s not dead after all”, something like that. The first two aren’t really options – keywords “PR kittenstorm” – and the third one would just lead to frustrated players.

Aequitas.6402:

The problem is, to fit your expectations they would either have to make it so that nobody can fight dragons in their story ever, only the first group to kill that dragon in the entire game would be allowed to do so, or put them on a cooldown and say “Oh, whoops, he’s not dead after all”, something like that. The first two aren’t really options – keywords “PR kittenstorm” – and the third one would just lead to frustrated players.

Yeah, virtually every MMO player to date was so kitten frustrated by their inability to permanently erase world bosses from their game. The horror. :p
They wanted lovecraftian monsters, so make them lovecraftian. Can’t kill them, only subdue them for a little while.

No, to fit my expectations, first they should have made the story more personal, you know, about you? Instead, after the first few chapters the story is just funneled down into the Pact line and that’s it. I know what your story is, because it’s pretty much the same as mine, even if we’re completely different races, so that doesn’t fly.

And second, never, ever create an open world and then allow instanced content to interfere with it. They want to create instances, fine, so create instances. I find that sort of thing fractures the community, but hey if the story is more important than the social cohesion of their MMO, why not. But the causality always either stays in the instance or goes from open world to the instance. Never the other way around.

Gaudrath.6725:

You just don’t get it, I can’t help you. Either this is your first MMO, or you’re not a roleplayer and don’t even get what canon and lore mean. You cannot have “lore” which allows for two contradictory versions of reality to coexist in the same time and space. Which happens every time a player kills Zhaitan and steps out into open world Orr.

That’s not lore, that’s a mistake. ANet just really dropped the ball on that one.

It’s not that I’m “not getting” something, it’s that I simply don’t agree with you. If it’s a contradiction to be able to replay old areas in GW2, then by the same merit it’s a contradiction whenever anyone replays old content in any game.

Whenever I reload an old save file in Final Fantasy, it’s a contradiction, because those events have already happened. Whenever I play a challenge room in Portal 2, it’s a contradiction, because the story is over and that doesn’t make sense. You’ve drawn an arbitrary line between GW2 and other games in which you can revisit old content (which is almost every game ever), even though in GW2 as with other games, it is simply a game mechanic to let you go back to old areas.

No, you again show that you do not understand the difference between game genres. Single player games are not the same as MMO’s. That’s a fact. Game mechanics that work in single player games do not necessarily work in multiplayer ones. Why do you think no MMO in existence has a save game system?

Because open world MMOs are based on a continuous world, which exists independently from your character. You log out and the world goes on. In single player games, you turn off the game and the entire world ceases to exist until you turn it back on. You load a save and you essentially rewind the game to a previous point in time. Neither of which works when you have a continuous world with many players playing right next to each other.

Mess with that world continuity, and you totally drop the ball when it comes to MMO design. In MMOs, the game world must be the same for EVERY player. That’s the whole point of having an open world. If you want to have content personalized for individual characters, your only option is to instance it. But the causality must be contained only to the instanced content (for example you encounter totally unique content which doesn’t appear anywhere else in the world, including other player’s personal stories) or it must flow from the open world to the instance (for example you and your buddy come up to a tree in the open world, you chop it down, and he doesn’t – for you the tree will be chopped and for him it will not be).
In both cases you have to be very careful not to mess with the general cohesion of the game world. Whatever is done in the instance, must be contained there. That means no permanent removal of major world entities. Chopping a tree down is ok. Removing a major world entity is not.
Do you understand now?

Some of this issues of cannonity could be easily solved with a phasing system or a before or after territory

Of course this generally splices the games population, who can’t see or play with players who are playing in a version of territory that differs depending on the completion of a quest or not.

Given that the games territories are instanced, the “Open world factor” is already suppressed, so the notion that they could just create canon versions of each territory before and after an event doesn’t bother me, as long as they include options to enter older instances before entering an instance portal.

Defeat Zhiatian? Orr changes a bit, some other territories change aswell? you’d be playing in a canon version of a territory with players who have also completed the same thing.

Sadly, this would take a lot of resourced because it would essentially double the size of the game by adding future instanced versions of new territories, probobally at the cost of an entire expansion that could have been used developing new places.

Also, This thread is confusing considering there is no OP and it basically looks like a lot of the thread was deleted. Whats going on here?

@Bard, yes, something like that, although I do not consider GW2 to have instanced zones. Loading screens do not break up world cohesion. If each zone existed in a separate “reality” or point of time, then yes, they would be instanced, but that would mean linear progression and older characters would not be able to return to low level areas.

GW2 is an open world MMO, which means little to no instancing. Best way to handle major open world entities, especially ones of godly proportions, is to give them equally godly qualities. For example the upcoming Elder Scrolls Online, where the main PvE antagonist is Molag Bal, a daedric prince which is really a demonic demigod. There is no way players will ever be able to kill him, even though he threatens the world, virtually every soul in it. Or even WOW, where players can defeat faction leaders, but not permanently remove them from the world (kill them).

It just isn’t done in a MMO. As you said, you could theoretically instance and phase everything, but that would totally fracture the server community and introduce a host of other problems (for example, latecomers having a really tough time finding parties for older content that older players simply cannot see and access anymore since they progressed past that point).

WoW used a phasing system partially for this reason and as a gimmick for their cataclysm expansion to show off that events and actions could premimentally alter terrian (Though it came with a load of problems)

I used instance as a technically term, as games like WoW had most of their world maps on a single instance(or zone). Guild Wars divides their territories into separate instances and implemented an overflow to cater to the high stress of it’s gameplay and to allow people with weaker computers to play with less lag.

Because GW2 has such a flexible group system that can allow players from different servers to run instances together it wouldn’t be that hard to implement a system to return to or party with players in a the old “zone” of which you have unlocked a “post event” version of. due to the level scale system such a thing would be quite easy to implement.

Gaudrath.6725:

No, you again show that you do not understand the difference between game genres. Single player games are not the same as MMO’s. That’s a fact. Game mechanics that work in single player games do not necessarily work in multiplayer ones. Why do you think no MMO in existence has a save game system?……
Do you understand now?

You’re not addressing my actual point. I’m not “showing I do not understand the difference”, I’m saying that in this one respect, they work the same. What differs is simply what that mechanic is. They both contain mechanics that allow you to revisit old content. Please stop pretending that I’m simply failing to grasp something you understand— that’s not the case.

Neilos Tyrhanos.5427:

Gaudrath.6725:

No, you again show that you do not understand the difference between game genres. Single player games are not the same as MMO’s. That’s a fact. Game mechanics that work in single player games do not necessarily work in multiplayer ones. Why do you think no MMO in existence has a save game system?……
Do you understand now?

You’re not addressing my actual point. I’m not “showing I do not understand the difference”, I’m saying that in this one respect, they work the same. What differs is simply what that mechanic is. They both contain mechanics that allow you to revisit old content. Please stop pretending that I’m simply failing to grasp something you understand— that’s not the case.

I’m sorry, but when you use examples from single player games to justify something in a MMO, you are either using a completely wrong analogy or don’t understand the issue.

The point is that you cannot use single player game mechanics in an MMO. There is no “old content” in an MMO. There are low level areas, which is completely different. When you go back to a newbie starting area in an MMO, you are not going back in time, you’re just going back in space. You are ALWAYS going forward in time in an MMO, just like real life. It’s called progression, and is necessary in order to maintain the level of social cohesion which makes the MMO games work in the first place.

So in the single player game, you can “travel back in time” by reloading an old save and playing from there, but in an MMO, you can just travel back (and show of your awesome gear to the amazed noobs and annoyed altoholics).

Gaudrath.6725:

I’m sorry, but when you use examples from single player games to justify something in a MMO, you are either using a completely wrong analogy or don’t understand the issue.

Please, I’ve asked you twice before, stop it. It’s getting insulting now.

Gaudrath.6725:

The point is that you cannot use single player game mechanics in an MMO. There is no “old content” in an MMO. There are low level areas, which is completely different. When you go back to a newbie starting area in an MMO, you are not going back in time, you’re just going back in space. You are ALWAYS going forward in time in an MMO, just like real life. It’s called progression, and is necessary in order to maintain the level of social cohesion which makes the MMO games work in the first place.

So in the single player game, you can “travel back in time” by reloading an old save and playing from there, but in an MMO, you can just travel back (and show of your awesome gear to the amazed noobs and annoyed altoholics).

I never said MMOs use single-player mechanics. My point was that the mechanics in an MMO that allow you to go to revisit areas have just as much impact on lore as the mechanics in a single-player game that allow you to replay old content.

When I go back to the Plains of Ashford after defeating Zhaitan, yes, I can roleplay that he’s dead and I’ve just come home from battle. When I speak to an NPC who mentions Zhaitan remains alive, I’m aware that I’m seeing dialogue from earlier in the story. It’s really not difficult for me to draw that line in my head.

I’d really like you to drop the tone of “explaining” things to me. You sound really patronising when you say things like, “it’s called progression”. For the third time, It’s not that I don’t understand, it’s that I disagree with you.

Ok let’s then discuss this: let us say you have killed Zhaitan and then go back to the beginner area and meet me. I haven’t killed Zhaitan but am in fact gearing up to do so. Can you roleplay that you killed him in front of me?

Gaudrath.6725:

Ok let’s then discuss this: let us say you have killed Zhaitan and then go back to the beginner area and meet me. I haven’t killed Zhaitan but am in fact gearing up to do so. Can you roleplay that you killed him in front of me?

Yes.

In that situation, I could roleplay personally that I’d already done the deed, but we couldn’t roleplay that scenario together (though of course we could very easily play together with our roleplays separate). If we were going to roleplay together, we’d have to roleplay that Zhaitan was still alive. Which I’d be fine with.

We could either; 1) roleplay separately but play together (keep our roleplaying to ourselves, as people tend to do anyway, the other player being just another adventurer or hero you meet on your journey); or 2) we roleplay together that Zhaitan is still alive.

Basically, I can roleplay whatever I like in my own head, even playing with other people.

(I’m sorry if I was a bit aggressive above, I didn’t mean to be!)

@WarriorOfAsgard – then you just broke roleplaying rule #1 – your roleplay should never be such that it interferes with with the roleplay of others.

Neilos explained that pretty well. My point then is that I believe a MMO should be designed in such a way that it minimizes situations where players cannot share their ingame experiences in an immersive manner (roleplay together) because those experiences are mutually exclusive.

Yes, you can roleplay whatever you want in the privacy of your own head, but that’s not the point of social gaming. We come to games such as these because we also want to play with and around other people. Otherwise we could just play a single player game.

Storytelling is a very adaptable tool. One can tell many things in many ways. I believe an epic and fulfilling experience can be written for every player in such a manner that it does not create immediate paradoxes in the open world. I believe that to cause such paradoxes means the story designers have not thought things through or do not care that much about the quality of their craftsmanship.

It could be that ANet has too little experience with open world MMO’s. Or it could be that the recent trend of story uber alles, as unfortunately pioneered by the Star Wars: The Old Republic, has influenced their thinking.
SWTOR flopped because the developers did not understand what makes a MMO tick (and man was every single point I made on the pre-launch board vindicated with a vengeance). They did not respect or understand the medium in which they were telling the story and they suffered the consequences.

ANet did a far better job with the open world gameplay, which is the heart of any MMO. I think they did manage to create a fine game. But they messed it up with Zhaitan… maybe they really wanted it like that, which I think is a mistake in the long run, but then time will tell who was right, as it always does.

Gaudrath.6725:

@WarriorOfAsgard – then you just broke roleplaying rule #1 – your roleplay should never be such that it interferes with with the roleplay of others.

Neilos explained that pretty well. My point then is that I believe a MMO should be designed in such a way that it minimizes situations where players cannot share their ingame experiences in an immersive manner (roleplay together) because those experiences are mutually exclusive.

Yes, you can roleplay whatever you want in the privacy of your own head, but that’s not the point of social gaming. We come to games such as these because we also want to play with and around other people. Otherwise we could just play a single player game.

Storytelling is a very adaptable tool. One can tell many things in many ways. I believe an epic and fulfilling experience can be written for every player in such a manner that it does not create immediate paradoxes in the open world. I believe that to cause such paradoxes means the story designers have not thought things through or do not care that much about the quality of their craftsmanship.

It could be that ANet has too little experience with open world MMO’s. Or it could be that the recent trend of story uber alles, as unfortunately pioneered by the Star Wars: The Old Republic, has influenced their thinking.
SWTOR flopped because the developers did not understand what makes a MMO tick (and man was every single point I made on the pre-launch board vindicated with a vengeance). They did not respect or understand the medium in which they were telling the story and they suffered the consequences.

ANet did a far better job with the open world gameplay, which is the heart of any MMO. I think they did manage to create a fine game. But they messed it up with Zhaitan… maybe they really wanted it like that, which I think is a mistake in the long run, but then time will tell who was right, as it always does.

Actually rule #1 is don’t RP with god modders. That’s actually my #4 rule then again I also don’t RP the main story so I’ve never run into that issue.

Gaudrath.6725:

Who said anything about me? You can’t roleplay that Zhaitan is dead in Orr when the Pact is yelling about cleansing temples of Zhaitan’s corruption in your ear or assaulting the gates of Arrah.

You seem to be unable to grasp the concept of “ignoring the NPCs” – the game doesn’t tell you what you can and cannot roleplay, despite your claim. Why? Because people can ignore the game.

If a group of roleplayers want to roleplay heroes in Tyria who have all personally seen and spoken to the Six Gods and lived for 10,000 years having seen the world when the Giganticus Lupicus walked Tyra, then they can. If they want to roleplay where there are not six but 10,000,000 Elder Dragons, they can.

What matters is not what the storyline says – the storyline is merely guidelines for real roleplayers and fan-fiction makers. What matters is the background lore and, more importantly to roleplayers, what players say. I’ve seen groups of roleplayers who formed into subgroups roleplaying that they’re conquering Tyria, replacing Jennah, Smodur, and so forth with themselves. Are you going to say they can’t do that? Too bad, they did.

And a non-godmodding group of roleplayers almost always agree upon pre-set conditions.

Gaudrath.6725:

You cannot have an inconsistent open world.

And GW2 isn’t an inconsistent open world. Just because you believe it is because Malchor’s Leap is based at an earlier point in time than Southsun Cove doesn’t mean it actually is.

Gaudrath.6725:

If each zone existed in a separate “reality” or point of time, then yes, they would be instanced, but that would mean linear progression and older characters would not be able to return to low level areas.

Uhm….

Each zone does exist at a separate point of time. And they’re not instanced, nor are players unable to go back.

So you’re wrong there. Separate points in time does not require instancing or preventing returning to earlier content.

I hope we can seriously drop this discussion though. Because you just spout the same kitten kitten every time and it’s obvious that you’re the ONE AND ONLY PERSON who believes it, but there’s no convincing you otherwise.

Yes, Anet could have done it differently, though not while keeping their goals of persistent open world and able to go back without splintering the playerbase, but either way this is how it’s done. Deal with it – it isn’t inconsistent, it’s just not how you would make such a game. That’s it.

Gaudrath.6725:

Ok let’s then discuss this: let us say you have killed Zhaitan and then go back to the beginner area and meet me. I haven’t killed Zhaitan but am in fact gearing up to do so. Can you roleplay that you killed him in front of me?

This is where the whole “roleplayers discuss settings before hand” come in – and when you roleplay freelance, then it obviously does create conflict.

But this is not an issue of the game. It never is nor was. It is, and always has been, a matter of players. Yet you still seem to blame the game’s design, and never the playerbase for this situation – and this issue is not unique to GW2 nor new in of itself.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Gaudrath.6725:

Who said anything about me? You can’t roleplay that Zhaitan is dead in Orr when the Pact is yelling about cleansing temples of Zhaitan’s corruption in your ear or assaulting the gates of Arrah.

You seem to be unable to grasp the concept of “ignoring the NPCs” – the game doesn’t tell you what you can and cannot roleplay, despite your claim. Why? Because people can ignore the game.

If a group of roleplayers want to roleplay heroes in Tyria who have all personally seen and spoken to the Six Gods and lived for 10,000 years having seen the world when the Giganticus Lupicus walked Tyra, then they can. If they want to roleplay where there are not six but 10,000,000 Elder Dragons, they can.

Yes, and I can then roleplay Superman. Your point is? Start ignoring the game lore, especially lore that is obviously in your face and, well, I think you will find many roleplayers will start ignoring you.

Go ahead. Try playing a havroun of Bear with some Norn roleplayers. Tell me how it goes.

And GW2 isn’t an inconsistent open world. Just because you believe it is because Malchor’s Leap is based at an earlier point in time than Southsun Cove doesn’t mean it actually is.

What you just described is the very definition of inconsistency. You cannot have a world where physical travel equates time travel. Malchor’s Leap either happens at the same time as Cursed Shore and Caledon Forest or I can throw a truckload of mind-bending paradoxes at you with every step you take in the world.

And for the record, I believe that all zones exist at the same time, but that ANet messed things up with the personal storyline and created paradoxical causalities in the game world with it.

Uhm….
Each zone does exist at a separate point of time. And they’re not instanced, nor are players unable to go back.

And that is not inconsistent to you? You just threw the entire concept of cause-effect out the window with such nonsense. You know, the one our entire reality is pretty much based on?
I guess you just really, really like time travel. And no, its not “how it is done” – no MMO in existence does it this way and I challenge you to prove me wrong.

Yes, Anet could have done it differently, though not while keeping their goals of persistent open world and able to go back without splintering the playerbase, but either way this is how it’s done. Deal with it – it isn’t inconsistent, it’s just not how you would make such a game. That’s it.

I deal with it by ignoring it as yet another mess the devs made because they didn’t think things trough. Happens a lot in this genre.

You still haven’t refuted my argument that the developers did a poor job with the game story and lore that creates paradoxes as you play. And no, the “it is just done that way” is not an argument. I maintain they could have done a much better job. If you want to discuss that, you can either agree with me, or prove me wrong. Haven’t done either so far.

if you take the game’s mechanics into consideration, it’s fairly easy to have the personal story in linear progression and the various map areas existing in the same time frame (not the case for some of the events happening in them, but that’s what you have to account for with rp)

Risen attacking Morgan’s Spiral in Caledon Forest even though your character just came back from slaying Zhaitan? big deal… they are remnants of his army that lash out at the nearest living creatures

and so on and so forth…

edit: on the other hand, contradicting established lore is a whole different issue and a good reason for me to ignore you in rp if you do it consciously.

ignoring recurring events = ignoring game mechanics, not ignoring lore
ignoring lore details = not playing in the same universe as other people

smekras.8203:

ignoring recurring events = ignoring game mechanics, not ignoring lore
ignoring lore details = not playing in the same universe as other people

I had a nice little casual RP session with some other roleplayers at one of the lodges in Lornar’s Pass, where we would just sit around the fire until those kids got into trouble with the Grawl, then we’d rush out with the NPC warriors and fight them.

We even made jokes how those kids always get into trouble and all. So a recurring event was easy to roleplay around with because it was done in a correct way.

The problem with Zhaitan, and especially post-Zhaitan Orr, is that you have to ignore a LOT of things. It is hard to pretend that post-Zhaitan Orr is filled with remnants of the Risen when the majority of dynamic events, NPCs and even landscape (statue and temple corruption) make it quite clear that Zhaitan is still very much alive.

Yes, you can ignore that, but the amount of ignoring you have to do is quite large. I claim that the whole game could have been constructed better, as to give the players a reason to keep fighting, give them a sense of accomplishment and epicness and yet not require of them to selectively ignore huge swathes of the game world at the same time.

Gaudrath.6725:

Uhm….
Each zone does exist at a separate point of time. And they’re not instanced, nor are players unable to go back.

And that is not inconsistent to you? You just threw the entire concept of cause-effect out the window with such nonsense. You know, the one our entire reality is pretty much based on?
I guess you just really, really like time travel. And no, its not “how it is done” – no MMO in existence does it this way and I challenge you to prove me wrong.

That’s not inconsistent to me. Its implications for cause-and-effect are precisely zilch, and it’s not time travel.

It’s a mechanic.

You can roleplay that you’ve already defeated Zhaitan in an earlier zone, because the majority of the stuff in the world around you doesn’t contradict that (including the presence of Risen post-Zhaitan). If you take part in the Tequatl fight, or fight off a Risen battleship attacking Fort Trinity, then just for a moment, remember you’re playing a game and replaying old content. Recognize that a mechanic is giving you that option. Not time-travel, and, because it’s a mechanic, not an in-story contradiction either.

But if you want to roleplay that it’s post-Zhaitan, then most of the world is made in such a way that it doesn’t contradict you.

The alternatives are worse. I don’t want a game in which the villains are never defeated. I don’t want a game that locks me out of old content. And I don’t want a game that disallows people from different stages of the story from playing together.

May I ask what your policy on dungeons is? Would you have dungeons only playable once (to avoid the contradiction of accomplishing the same goal twice), or would you just design the dungeons to only include stories that have no impact on the plot, and no named characters?

Dungeons are a prime example. The first time I played them, in my mind, it was happening as part of my character’s story. Every subsequent time, a mechanic was letting me replay it. It’s not hard to draw that line in my head.

Gaudrath.6725:

Yes, and I can then roleplay Superman. Your point is? Start ignoring the game lore, especially lore that is obviously in your face and, well, I think you will find many roleplayers will start ignoring you.

Go ahead. Try playing a havroun of Bear with some Norn roleplayers. Tell me how it goes.

I don’t know if you’re acting ignorant, or you just don’t understand my wording.

You can roleplay whatever you want. Nothing stops you. And yes, if you go too far fetched, other people who randomly join into your roleplay will roleplay that you’re crazy. However, as I said, you can roleplay in a niche of friends and pre-design the setting beforehand, thus no problems exist!

But apparently that concept is too hard for you to understand.

Gaudrath.6725:

What you just described is the very definition of inconsistency. You cannot have a world where physical travel equates time travel.

From dictionary.com:

in·con·sist·ent
[in-kuh?n-sis-tuh?nt] Show IPA
adjective
1.
lacking in harmony between the different parts or elements; self-contradictory: an inconsistent story.
2.
lacking agreement, as one thing with another or two or more things in relation to each other; at variance: a summary that is inconsistent with the previously stated facts.
3.
not consistent in principles, conduct, etc.: He’s so inconsistent we never know if he’ll be kind or cruel.
4.
acting at variance with professed principles.
5.
Logic. incompatible ( def 4b ) .

So what part of “earlier parts of the game is earlier parts in the timeline” is, effectively, contradictory?

None.

Gaudrath.6725:

You still haven’t refuted my argument that the developers did a poor job with the game story and lore that creates paradoxes as you play. And no, the “it is just done that way” is not an argument. I maintain they could have done a much better job. If you want to discuss that, you can either agree with me, or prove me wrong. Haven’t done either so far.

And you still haven’t shown how it’s inconsistent.

Perhaps you need a wider use of vocabulary. Because what you’re pointing out isn’t “inconsistency” nor is it “paradoxical” – but perhaps the way it’s meant to be viewed is too out-of-the-box for you to wrap your head around.

And for the record, when I said “this is how it’s done” I wasn’t using that as an argument – I was just stating that’s how the game was made. Where earlier parts of the game are done at an earlier point in time.

If you ask me, personally, I would argue a game where every zone is set at the same time yet has clearly a difference in level difficulty would be paradoxical. Why? Because it would mean that the point in time when you’re killing the Risen Priestess of Grenth in Cursed Shore is the exact same point in time that you’re struggling to fight the Shadow Behemoth because you’re 5 levels too low. That sounds a heck of a lot more paradoxical than being able to go to earlier zones and experience events that happened before other events you’ve already experienced.

What you need to accept is this simple fact:

The game is designed in a linear fashion, but you do not have to experience it in said linear fashion. This isn’t paradoxical, it is mechanics. What would be paradoxical would be if killing the Shadow Behemoth and killing Zhaitan happened at the same time (what you effectively want, from your arguments) and I experienced both.

Gaudrath.6725:

The problem with Zhaitan, and especially post-Zhaitan Orr, is that you have to ignore a LOT of things. It is hard to pretend that post-Zhaitan Orr is filled with remnants of the Risen when the majority of dynamic events, NPCs and even landscape (statue and temple corruption) make it quite clear that Zhaitan is still very much alive.

You do know that Zhaitan’s corruption is still around after his death, as well as a kitten ton of risen, and the risen still act like he’s alive, right?

Just want to make sure you’ve done the Arah explorable, where every risen acts no differently than before Arah story mode, yet Arah explorable very clearly takes place after Arah story.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

So what part of “earlier parts of the game is earlier parts in the timeline” is, effectively, contradictory?

Here is one to chew upon. Say you walk from Cursed Shore into Arrah and defeat Zhaitan. You get that commendation and say, get yourself a nice Pact Staff to show off for your trouble.
Now, according to you, Cursed Shore exists in the point in time prior to Arrah. Ok, so what about YOU? Are you from the future? Is that weapon supposed to exist NOW? How come you have it, since Zhaitan isn’t dead at this point in time? What if you decide this time to not go into Arrah? Does that staff dissappear from your inventory?

Here’s another. Let’s say you start off in Caledon, you go through the story, kill Zhaitan and then return to Caledon. If Caledon is indeed set earlier in time, where is your earlier self? You should see a copy of yourself running around killing spiders. In fact, with such a ridiculous premise of spatial travel equating temporal travel you should be leaving infinite copies of yourself for every smallest possible section of space-time in your existence, like a really weird mouse trail.

Perhaps you need a wider use of vocabulary. Because what you’re pointing out isn’t “inconsistency” nor is it “paradoxical” – but perhaps the way it’s meant to be viewed is too out-of-the-box for you to wrap your head around.

And for the record, when I said “this is how it’s done” I wasn’t using that as an argument – I was just stating that’s how the game was made. Where earlier parts of the game are done at an earlier point in time.

In which case you’re only confirming my argument that ANet messed things up. If that is really how they envisioned their “open” world, then I got news for them – they created the most closed, linear world in the history of gaming (nevermind MMO’s) and the only reason everyone isn’t laughing at how silly that idea is, is because they’re not aware of it.

If you ask me, personally, I would argue a game where every zone is set at the same time yet has clearly a difference in level difficulty would be paradoxical. Why? Because it would mean that the point in time when you’re killing the Risen Priestess of Grenth in Cursed Shore is the exact same point in time that you’re struggling to fight the Shadow Behemoth because you’re 5 levels too low. That sounds a heck of a lot more paradoxical than being able to go to earlier zones and experience events that happened before other events you’ve already experienced.

Not paradoxical at all. Say you roll a warrior fresh out of warrior school, are you going to immediately rush off to fight the biggest, baddest monster the world has ever seen (and die horribly) or listen to your trainer and go kill them rats for a while?

It is called character progression. You go from weak and inexperienced to strong and experienced, and tackle appropriate challenges along the way.
You know, the real world functions the same way. Go try and beat up a karate master after two hours of training. The only difference between the real world and a virtual one is that virtual worlds are conveniently laid out for you not to run into a proverbial karate master while still learning how not to fall over. But the virtual Europe isn’t “before” virtual Canada. That is just ridiculous.

What you need to accept is this simple fact:
The game is designed in a linear fashion, but you do not have to experience it in said linear fashion. This isn’t paradoxical, it is mechanics. What would be paradoxical would be if killing the Shadow Behemoth and killing Zhaitan happened at the same time (what you effectively want, from your arguments) and I experienced both.

Oh man, look up the definition of the world “continuity”. Who said that you killed the shadow behemoth and Zhaitan at the same time? I said that an open world means that it is not linear and your character continuity means that you experience events in a one-way manner as far as time is concerned.
To illustrate, you first kill spiders in Caledon then you kill the shadow behemoth after that, then you kill Zhaitan after that, then you return to Caledon and can kill spiders some more. Not spiders from the past, but spiders from the present, in a post Zhaitan world. No paradoxes there.

A paradox would be if you killed a spider in Caledon, took a sword from its gut, then later used that sword to kill the shadow behemoth, then returned to Caledon and decided not kill that spider. Consequently you get no sword, but the behemoth is still dead since that happened in the future. That’s a paradox.

You do know that Zhaitan’s corruption is still around after his death, as well as a kitten ton of risen, and the risen still act like he’s alive, right?

So what was the point of killing Zhaitan then? Come on man, it’s bad storytelling on multiple levels. Why are we arguing over this?

Gaudrath.6725:

In fact, with such a ridiculous premise of spatial travel equating temporal travel you should be leaving infinite copies of yourself for every smallest possible section of space-time in your existence, like a really weird mouse trail.

At this point, what’s ridiculous is you and your argument. Too ridiculous to even bother arguing against.

Gaudrath.6725:

Not paradoxical at all. Say you roll a warrior fresh out of warrior school, are you going to immediately rush off to fight the biggest, baddest monster the world has ever seen (and die horribly) or listen to your trainer and go kill them rats for a while?

It is called character progression. You go from weak and inexperienced to strong and experienced, and tackle appropriate challenges along the way.

And that weak and inexperienced warrior exists at the same time as your strong and experienced warrior, using your desired world set up.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Gaudrath.6725:

In fact, with such a ridiculous premise of spatial travel equating temporal travel you should be leaving infinite copies of yourself for every smallest possible section of space-time in your existence, like a really weird mouse trail.

At this point, what’s ridiculous is you and your argument. Too ridiculous to even bother arguing against.

Ad hominem won’t help you.

And that weak and inexperienced warrior exists at the same time as your strong and experienced warrior, using your desired world set up.

Not at all, and please do quote me where I said everything has to happen at the same time. You are confusing temporal progression, which is linear, with the notion of time being universal.

If you have difficulty, just look at how the physical world works. Everything happens at the same time. Note the present tense. This excludes things that have happened and are not happening right now as well as things that will happen in the future.

This does NOT mean that yesterday is happening at the same time as today. Causality is linear, the flow of time is one directional, past→present→future. You cannot go back in time, you can only go forward. Time is also universal in space (for all intents and purposes).

So your breakfast happens before your lunch, but Europe certainly doesn’t happen before Australia. You kill spiders before Zhaitan and then again spiders after Zhaitan, but Caledon and Orr exist at the same moment in time.

Do you get it now?

Europe is after Australia. Timezones and whatnot.

If I’m understanding these extremely long posts and replies, the question is whether or not Bob, whose personal story says Zhaitan is still alive, is RPing at the same ‘time’ as Tim, whose personal story says Zhaitan is dead, and whether or not they would say Zhaitan is alive or dead when RPing together?

To which I’d say the answer is – whatever they decide and feel like. There’s no RPolice who are gonna lock them up for the ‘wrong answer’.

Zhaitan: I am feeling better! I think I will go for a walk.
Zojja: You’re not fooling anyone, you know.
Zhiatan: I feel happy. I feel happy!

Gaudrath.6725:

Causality is linear, the flow of time is one directional, past->present->future. You cannot go back in time, you can only go forward. Time is also universal in space (for all intents and purposes).

All of these things are true, and all hold precisely no influence over this discussion of game mechanics.

I’m not going to reply with long blocks of text anymore, because I’ve said all I can say on the matter more than once.

You can roleplay what you like. Nothing is stopping you, least of all the game. It just so happens that some events (not many) have a particular time and place in-lore, and also happen to be replayable. The impact of this replay mechanic on the lore is none. If you happen to be in the area, and you happen to be a roleplayer who absolutely cannot accept replaying old events, then don’t take part—- that’s you not making use of the mechanic, which is your right.

But to complain because the mechanic exists?

Son of Elias.5420:

Europe is after Australia. Timezones and whatnot.

I really, really hope you’re joking.

And this discussion isn’t about RP, RP is used to illustrate things. It’s about poorly constructed story which creates paradoxical situations.

Neilos Tyrhanos.5427:

Gaudrath.6725:

Causality is linear, the flow of time is one directional, past->present->future. You cannot go back in time, you can only go forward. Time is also universal in space (for all intents and purposes).

All of these things are true, and all hold precisely no influence over this discussion of game mechanics.

I’m not going to reply with long blocks of text anymore, because I’ve said all I can say on the matter more than once.

You can roleplay what you like. Nothing is stopping you, least of all the game. It just so happens that some events (not many) have a particular time and place in-lore, and also happen to be replayable. The impact of this replay mechanic on the lore is none. If you happen to be in the area, and you happen to be a roleplayer who absolutely cannot accept replaying old events, then don’t take part—- that’s you not making use of the mechanic, which is your right.

But to complain because the mechanic exists?

You confuse mechanics with story consistency. A damage formula is a game mechanic. A loot system is a game mechanic.

Shoddy storytelling creating impossible and contradictory situations is bad storytelling, not game mechanics.

Explorable zones are mechanics. Time progression via individual zones are mechanics.

Gaudrath.6725:

Son of Elias.5420:

Europe is after Australia. Timezones and whatnot.

I really, really hope you’re joking.

What? It is. Australia hits 6am, for example, long before Europe does. By the time it’s 6am in Europe, it’s like 1-2pm in Australia.

Son of Elias.5420:

Gaudrath.6725:

Son of Elias.5420:

Europe is after Australia. Timezones and whatnot.

I really, really hope you’re joking.

What? It is. Australia hits 6am, for example, long before Europe does. By the time it’s 6am in Europe, it’s like 1-2pm in Australia.

That’s time zones. Used for local time measurement and syncing of clocks, but those zones are completely artifical and tied to the rotation of the Earth relative to the Sun.
There used to be an island in the Pacific with the international date line cutting it right in half. You could actually make one step from, say, Tuesday to Wednesday – but come on, in reality that didn’t mean you went to the future (or back to past if you took a step back).

It is NOW everywhere. It is now where you live as well as in another galaxy. It is now on Mars and on the Moon, in Europe and Australia. Time is universal. Travelling through space does not equate travelling through time, especially not backwards through time. You can only ever go forward through time.