Guild Wars 2

the Devs have mentioned fixing that fight to something proper. it was a last minute thing they added in before they had to ship the game and what we got was the last minute effort.

Ok, so Verata was investigating the means to have permanent minions, the cult of Verata had a base of operations by the tower in GW1, and the elementals in Garrenhoff are hinted to be powered by human souls.

These are the facts.
I see the connection. I wonder why you don’t.

Ludovicus.7980:

Ok, so Verata was investigating the means to have permanent minions, the cult of Verata had a base of operations by the tower in GW1, and the elementals in Garrenhoff are hinted to be powered by human souls.

These are the facts.
I see the connection. I wonder why you don’t.

Probably because they don’t fit together tight enough. There are several things that kind of throw a wrench at the theory.

Verata was researching in Necromantic minions not Elementals. Him and his cult were killed by adventurers due to a bounty. Even if there were survivors we have no reason to believe they had the means to enter or manipulate the giant tower that in the background. We never told about it, nor do the locals seem to be concern about it. Even the White Mantle don’t seem all that interested in the tower. So this could be viewed from multiple perspective.

The first is that the tower could be a Mursaat stronghold made to look like a human tower that houses a portal they use to get into the world. They did utilize magic dealing with the manipulation of souls so I don’t see why they wouldn’t bind human souls into elemental matter to make new minions. Secondly it could be a White Mantle’s magical research facility that simply experienced a mishap that resulted it becoming a Earth Mote. This was later repeated to make another Earth Mote or they took great efforts to expand the original earth mote to build a castle there. The Castle could be an Asura’s workshop, perfect location away from everyone yet close enough to get supplies. Asura have been known to do such experiments, perhaps it inquest. Or it could be Dhuum’s new home after he broke out once again. For the time being its all speculation until we actually get facts that support it.

Now if there were evidence or even hints that he was experimenting on creating non necromantic minions I might find it more plausible he or his cult is related to this place. For the time being it a interesting hypothesis but only time will tell if it a viable theory or even a true.

Darkbattlemage.9612:

Ludovicus.7980:

Ok, so Verata was investigating the means to have permanent minions, the cult of Verata had a base of operations by the tower in GW1, and the elementals in Garrenhoff are hinted to be powered by human souls.

These are the facts.
I see the connection. I wonder why you don’t.

Probably because they don’t fit together tight enough. There are several things that kind of throw a wrench at the theory.

Verata was researching in Necromantic minions not Elementals. Him and his cult were killed by adventurers due to a bounty. Even if there were survivors we have no reason to believe they had the means to enter or manipulate the giant tower that in the background. We never told about it, nor do the locals seem to be concern about it. Even the White Mantle don’t seem all that interested in the tower. So this could be viewed from multiple perspective.

The first is that the tower could be a Mursaat stronghold made to look like a human tower that houses a portal they use to get into the world. They did utilize magic dealing with the manipulation of souls so I don’t see why they wouldn’t bind human souls into elemental matter to make new minions. Secondly it could be a White Mantle’s magical research facility that simply experienced a mishap that resulted it becoming a Earth Mote. This was later repeated to make another Earth Mote or they took great efforts to expand the original earth mote to build a castle there. The Castle could be an Asura’s workshop, perfect location away from everyone yet close enough to get supplies. Asura have been known to do such experiments, perhaps it inquest. Or it could be Dhuum’s new home after he broke out once again. For the time being its all speculation until we actually get facts that support it.

Now if there were evidence or even hints that he was experimenting on creating non necromantic minions I might find it more plausible he or his cult is related to this place. For the time being it a interesting hypothesis but only time will tell if it a viable theory or even a true.

Of course. I’m not saying that this is the only way things could turn to be. I’m just saying that it is a plausible one. There are hints:
hint1: Verata was investigating on permanent minions
hint2: Verata’s cult had a base near the tower in GW1
hint3: The elementals in town are suspected to be animated by human souls.

Does that mean that it’s all because of Verata’s cult. Of course not.
But for me it is a strong possibility.

Ludovicus.7980:

Darkbattlemage.9612:

Ludovicus.7980:

Ok, so Verata was investigating the means to have permanent minions, the cult of Verata had a base of operations by the tower in GW1, and the elementals in Garrenhoff are hinted to be powered by human souls.

These are the facts.
I see the connection. I wonder why you don’t.

Probably because they don’t fit together tight enough. There are several things that kind of throw a wrench at the theory.

Verata was researching in Necromantic minions not Elementals. Him and his cult were killed by adventurers due to a bounty. Even if there were survivors we have no reason to believe they had the means to enter or manipulate the giant tower that in the background. We never told about it, nor do the locals seem to be concern about it. Even the White Mantle don’t seem all that interested in the tower. So this could be viewed from multiple perspective.

The first is that the tower could be a Mursaat stronghold made to look like a human tower that houses a portal they use to get into the world. They did utilize magic dealing with the manipulation of souls so I don’t see why they wouldn’t bind human souls into elemental matter to make new minions. Secondly it could be a White Mantle’s magical research facility that simply experienced a mishap that resulted it becoming a Earth Mote. This was later repeated to make another Earth Mote or they took great efforts to expand the original earth mote to build a castle there. The Castle could be an Asura’s workshop, perfect location away from everyone yet close enough to get supplies. Asura have been known to do such experiments, perhaps it inquest. Or it could be Dhuum’s new home after he broke out once again. For the time being its all speculation until we actually get facts that support it.

Now if there were evidence or even hints that he was experimenting on creating non necromantic minions I might find it more plausible he or his cult is related to this place. For the time being it a interesting hypothesis but only time will tell if it a viable theory or even a true.

Of course. I’m not saying that this is the only way things could turn to be. I’m just saying that it is a plausible one. There are hints:
hint1: Verata was investigating on permanent minions
hint2: Verata’s cult had a base near the tower in GW1
hint3: The elementals in town are suspected to be animated by human souls.

Does that mean that it’s all because of Verata’s cult. Of course not.
But for me it is a strong possibility.

Ok why would he or his cult refocus their pursuit from Necromancy to Elementalism? There is a big different between the two schools of Magic. If there could be a reason backed by evidence given maybe it will be a possibility to others.

Darkbattlemage.9612:

Ludovicus.7980:

Darkbattlemage.9612:

Ludovicus.7980:

Ok, so Verata was investigating the means to have permanent minions, the cult of Verata had a base of operations by the tower in GW1, and the elementals in Garrenhoff are hinted to be powered by human souls.

These are the facts.
I see the connection. I wonder why you don’t.

Probably because they don’t fit together tight enough. There are several things that kind of throw a wrench at the theory.

Verata was researching in Necromantic minions not Elementals. Him and his cult were killed by adventurers due to a bounty. Even if there were survivors we have no reason to believe they had the means to enter or manipulate the giant tower that in the background. We never told about it, nor do the locals seem to be concern about it. Even the White Mantle don’t seem all that interested in the tower. So this could be viewed from multiple perspective.

The first is that the tower could be a Mursaat stronghold made to look like a human tower that houses a portal they use to get into the world. They did utilize magic dealing with the manipulation of souls so I don’t see why they wouldn’t bind human souls into elemental matter to make new minions. Secondly it could be a White Mantle’s magical research facility that simply experienced a mishap that resulted it becoming a Earth Mote. This was later repeated to make another Earth Mote or they took great efforts to expand the original earth mote to build a castle there. The Castle could be an Asura’s workshop, perfect location away from everyone yet close enough to get supplies. Asura have been known to do such experiments, perhaps it inquest. Or it could be Dhuum’s new home after he broke out once again. For the time being its all speculation until we actually get facts that support it.

Now if there were evidence or even hints that he was experimenting on creating non necromantic minions I might find it more plausible he or his cult is related to this place. For the time being it a interesting hypothesis but only time will tell if it a viable theory or even a true.

Of course. I’m not saying that this is the only way things could turn to be. I’m just saying that it is a plausible one. There are hints:
hint1: Verata was investigating on permanent minions
hint2: Verata’s cult had a base near the tower in GW1
hint3: The elementals in town are suspected to be animated by human souls.

Does that mean that it’s all because of Verata’s cult. Of course not.
But for me it is a strong possibility.

Ok why would he or his cult refocus their pursuit from Necromancy to Elementalism? There is a big different between the two schools of Magic. If there could be a reason backed by evidence given maybe it will be a possibility to others.

And that, my friend, is the right question.
Why would they switch to elementals?
That’s the reason I want that story expanded. To know if his cult was involved and if they did that or not.
Now, as food for thought I leave you this quote from GW1:

“As you’ve no doubt heard, there have been a number of recent disappearances among the townsfolk. Thus far, we’ve assumed they fell victim to the Stone Summit or other local menaces. The truth, Grenth forgive us, is something much much worse. One of our Order, a promising Necromancer named Verata, has been experimenting with new ways to enhance and maintain summoned minions. Normally this would be a good thing, however, in his lust for power Verata has been kidnapping Ascalon citizens for use in his experiments! He was also spotted waylaying travelers coming up into the mountains from Ascalon. We must stop him, quickly and discreetly, before anyone can link the disappearances with our Order. Can you be of help in this situation?”

And after you defeat him, you don’t kill him. He flees and you can find him near the tower: http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Verata

Kessex Peak: (sometimes spawns if The Villainy of Galrath is active; always appears if it is not)

I don’t think Zhaitan is dead either, but my theory was that the fight(at least partially) was an illusion by Zhaitan’s mesmers. It wouldn’t be the first time he used these illusions on us.

As to a theory where Zhaitan went I would say that he went to Elona to mass a new undead army.

With the current story:
Zhaitan was arrogant and that lead to his downfall.

With this theory:
Zhaitan was cunning and deceived us all.

Ludovicus.7980:

Ok, so Verata was investigating the means to have permanent minions,

Yes.

Ludovicus.7980:

the cult of Verata had a base of operations by the tower in GW1,

No. They did not have a “base of operations”. They were simply nearby. Probably to learn the secrets inside (just like Galrath).

Ludovicus.7980:

and the elementals in Garrenhoff are hinted to be powered by human souls.

Evidence?

Ludovicus.7980:

These are the facts.
I see the connection. I wonder why you don’t.

If you can’t tell facts apart from speculation and inaccuracies…. then that’s why we don’t see it.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Ludovicus.7980:

Ok, so Verata was investigating the means to have permanent minions,

Yes.

No discusion here

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Ludovicus.7980:

the cult of Verata had a base of operations by the tower in GW1,

No. They did not have a “base of operations”. They were simply nearby. Probably to learn the secrets inside (just like Galrath).

I said they had a base by the tower, not inside it. And he was probably investigating it like Galrath. The question is whether they got inside eventually or not, and that is one reason I want the story expanded.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Ludovicus.7980:

and the elementals in Garrenhoff are hinted to be powered by human souls.

Evidence?

Sadly I could not find quotes for this, but it is known that people that go to the tower never come back. Plus Tillee concerns about the elementals being angry and/or forced to do things. I said it is hinted, there’s no solid evidence.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Ludovicus.7980:

These are the facts.
I see the connection. I wonder why you don’t.

If you can’t tell facts apart from speculation and inaccuracies…. then that’s why we don’t see it.

Finally I said this was speculation from the beginning.
My first comment was that Verata COULD be related to the tower. Not that it certainly was.
I still fail to understand how you don’t see that he COULD be related.

edit: Ok, I read again my original post. I wasn’t clear enough about it being speculation. But I’ve been saying it is for a while now.

Ludovicus.7980:

I said they had a base by the tower, not inside it.

And I said they didn’t have a base at all. It was just Verata with a mob of his followers. There was no base, no camp. Just a mob.

Ludovicus.7980:

but it is known that people that go to the tower never come back.

Correction, it is rumored by some locals, that people go to the tower and never return.

Ludovicus.7980:

Plus Tillee concerns about the elementals being angry and/or forced to do things. I said it is hinted, there’s no solid evidence.

That the elementals are being forced to act against their nature, seems clear to me. Especially since one of them occasionally breaks free of it’s enchantment, and is instantly attacked by the others (-or at least, that is how it appears to me. That is speculation on my part).

Ludovicus.7980:

My first comment was that Verata COULD be related to the tower. Not that it certainly was.
I still fail to understand how you don’t see that he COULD be related.

How could he be related? You still have presented zero evidence that there is any link to Verata in GW2 at all. To say that something “might” be possible, I think you’d first have to present something…. anything… that links the tower to Verata in some way.

Speculation is fine, but usually it is backed up with something. At least Konig had a solid link for his White Mantle speculation. We know the White Mantle still exist in GW2, and we know they sacrificed villagers that were considered Chosen. We have a rumor that villagers are going up to the tower, and not returning. And we know that the White Mantle (or Galrath specifically) have been interested in the secrets of the tower before. That’s at least something to go on. Wild speculation none the less, but I can see a link there. I see no link to Verata at all.

To be honest though, I also don’t see how the elementals link to the White Mantle either, since that’s not something the Mantle are typically known for. But it’s an interesting hypothesis none the less. I’ll leave that up to Konig to figure out. :P

Ok, back into topic. If Zhaitan is truly and completely unreversably dead. We’re scrued because the world needs the dragons in order to stay stable and not blowing up with all the magic in its lay lines.

Ludovicus.7980:

Ok, back into topic. If Zhaitan is truly and completely unreversably dead. We’re scrued because the world needs the dragons in order to stay stable and not blowing up with all the magic in its lay lines.

Or, the magic in the land grows, and all races become capable of casting more powerful spells. I’m not convinced that the Dragons are needed. They feed on magic, but are they an essential component of balance on Tyria?

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Ludovicus.7980:

Ok, back into topic. If Zhaitan is truly and completely unreversably dead. We’re scrued because the world needs the dragons in order to stay stable and not blowing up with all the magic in its lay lines.

Or, the magic in the land grows, and all races become capable of casting more powerful spells. I’m not convinced that the Dragons are needed. They feed on magic, but are they an essential component of balance on Tyria?

until we truly understand the true source of magic, we can’t tell.

best case scenario, they’re just huge sponges that can be squeezed dry by tyria once they die, and no-dragon tyria overflowing with magic is safe.

I’m reminded of the ordeal with King Doric, who pleaded to the Gods because of all the wars that magic had brought. Maybe that is a possible result of having too much magic in the world. All races become too powerful, and start wars against each other.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

I’m reminded of the ordeal with King Doric, who pleaded to the Gods because of all the wars that magic had brought. Maybe that is a possible result of having too much magic in the world. All races become too powerful, and start wars against each other.

How is this any different than the last two hundred fifty years? Charr been warring with humans, Norn been warring with Jotunn, and Asura been warring with Skirtt. It seems to me the wars didn’t stop when the gods took back the magic they gave to humanity it just gave them a means to resurrect the dead and to becoming walking artillery pieces rendering the slow and awkward catapults to be outdated.

It could be possible that the Elder Dragons keep Magic stable, as the Tyrian races understand magic, and without them the magic will ‘evolve’ into something similar to the Chaotic Magics found in the Thaumanova reactor. If this is true then the future of Tyria without the Elder Dragons will only see a decrease of magic users, as it will now require extensive research and training to be able to focus the chaotic magical energy into desired effect. We’ll see heavy investments into technology and the world might even become similar to Shadowrun or other settings where science and magic co-exist with one another, just science will be more prevalent than magic in this case.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

I’m reminded of the ordeal with King Doric, who pleaded to the Gods because of all the wars that magic had brought. Maybe that is a possible result of having too much magic in the world. All races become too powerful, and start wars against each other.

true, but back then there were still dragons, even if asleep.

Darkbattlemage.9612:

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

I’m reminded of the ordeal with King Doric, who pleaded to the Gods because of all the wars that magic had brought. Maybe that is a possible result of having too much magic in the world. All races become too powerful, and start wars against each other.

How is this any different than the last two hundred fifty years? Charr been warring with humans, Norn been warring with Jotunn, and Asura been warring with Skirtt. It seems to me the wars didn’t stop when the gods took back the magic they gave to humanity it just gave them a means to resurrect the dead and to becoming walking artillery pieces rendering the slow and awkward catapults to be outdated.

It could be possible that the Elder Dragons keep Magic stable, as the Tyrian races understand magic, and without them the magic will ‘evolve’ into something similar to the Chaotic Magics found in the Thaumanova reactor. If this is true then the future of Tyria without the Elder Dragons will only see a decrease of magic users, as it will now require extensive research and training to be able to focus the chaotic magical energy into desired effect. We’ll see heavy investments into technology and the world might even become similar to Shadowrun or other settings where science and magic co-exist with one another, just science will be more prevalent than magic in this case.

The reason it’s different is because with too much magic, you start running into an arms race.

Fast forward and the Asura end up testing just how big of a fireball they can cast and blowing out all the windows in a five hundred mile radius.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsar_Bomba

It’s not the length or presence of a war that’s a potential issue, it’s the amount of power that might be brought to bear during it. Imagine a war where every side has the ability to perform another Searing or Foefire… several times over.

Darkbattlemage.9612:

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

I’m reminded of the ordeal with King Doric, who pleaded to the Gods because of all the wars that magic had brought. Maybe that is a possible result of having too much magic in the world. All races become too powerful, and start wars against each other.

How is this any different than the last two hundred fifty years? Charr been warring with humans, Norn been warring with Jotunn, and Asura been warring with Skirtt. It seems to me the wars didn’t stop when the gods took back the magic they gave to humanity it just gave them a means to resurrect the dead and to becoming walking artillery pieces rendering the slow and awkward catapults to be outdated.

It could be possible that the Elder Dragons keep Magic stable, as the Tyrian races understand magic, and without them the magic will ‘evolve’ into something similar to the Chaotic Magics found in the Thaumanova reactor. If this is true then the future of Tyria without the Elder Dragons will only see a decrease of magic users, as it will now require extensive research and training to be able to focus the chaotic magical energy into desired effect. We’ll see heavy investments into technology and the world might even become similar to Shadowrun or other settings where science and magic co-exist with one another, just science will be more prevalent than magic in this case.

The difference here was the amount of impact magic could have. In GW1 it was hinted that the effects of magic were massive. That slaughter, quite possibly at the level of the Searing, were happening on a constant basis at the command of a few casters. Now, slaughter based on magic is reduced to a few dozen at a time compared to possibly thousands.

Kirschwasser.3972:

Darkbattlemage.9612:

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

I’m reminded of the ordeal with King Doric, who pleaded to the Gods because of all the wars that magic had brought. Maybe that is a possible result of having too much magic in the world. All races become too powerful, and start wars against each other.

How is this any different than the last two hundred fifty years? Charr been warring with humans, Norn been warring with Jotunn, and Asura been warring with Skirtt. It seems to me the wars didn’t stop when the gods took back the magic they gave to humanity it just gave them a means to resurrect the dead and to becoming walking artillery pieces rendering the slow and awkward catapults to be outdated.

It could be possible that the Elder Dragons keep Magic stable, as the Tyrian races understand magic, and without them the magic will ‘evolve’ into something similar to the Chaotic Magics found in the Thaumanova reactor. If this is true then the future of Tyria without the Elder Dragons will only see a decrease of magic users, as it will now require extensive research and training to be able to focus the chaotic magical energy into desired effect. We’ll see heavy investments into technology and the world might even become similar to Shadowrun or other settings where science and magic co-exist with one another, just science will be more prevalent than magic in this case.

The reason it’s different is because with too much magic, you start running into an arms race.

Fast forward and the Asura end up testing just how big of a fireball they can cast and blowing out all the windows in a five hundred mile radius.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsar_Bomba

It’s not the length or presence of a war that’s a potential issue, it’s the amount of power that might be brought to bear during it. Imagine a war where every side has the ability to perform another Searing or Foefire… several times over.

Yup, pretty much this. War will always happen the question is if the nukes are available to the average Joe or not.
Plus the inherent instability of chaotic magic. We can have our magic civil disasters too.
Finally, there’s the risk that magic can be dangerous on its own. Creating natural magic disasters.

Kirschwasser.3972:

Darkbattlemage.9612:

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

I’m reminded of the ordeal with King Doric, who pleaded to the Gods because of all the wars that magic had brought. Maybe that is a possible result of having too much magic in the world. All races become too powerful, and start wars against each other.

How is this any different than the last two hundred fifty years? Charr been warring with humans, Norn been warring with Jotunn, and Asura been warring with Skirtt. It seems to me the wars didn’t stop when the gods took back the magic they gave to humanity it just gave them a means to resurrect the dead and to becoming walking artillery pieces rendering the slow and awkward catapults to be outdated.

It could be possible that the Elder Dragons keep Magic stable, as the Tyrian races understand magic, and without them the magic will ‘evolve’ into something similar to the Chaotic Magics found in the Thaumanova reactor. If this is true then the future of Tyria without the Elder Dragons will only see a decrease of magic users, as it will now require extensive research and training to be able to focus the chaotic magical energy into desired effect. We’ll see heavy investments into technology and the world might even become similar to Shadowrun or other settings where science and magic co-exist with one another, just science will be more prevalent than magic in this case.

The reason it’s different is because with too much magic, you start running into an arms race.

Fast forward and the Asura end up testing just how big of a fireball they can cast and blowing out all the windows in a five hundred mile radius.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsar_Bomba

It’s not the length or presence of a war that’s a potential issue, it’s the amount of power that might be brought to bear during it. Imagine a war where every side has the ability to perform another Searing or Foefire… several times over.

The Black Mage in me, since the final fantasy wiki says in several descriptions they are researchers in the destructive application of magic, is actually excited at the possibility of a fireball being as powerful as the Tsar bomb. But I actually agree with the dangers of increasing magic.

Question though aren’t we technically doing this already in response to the Elder Dragons awakening? I mean applying magic in the most destructive methods we can conceive and pushing that further and further with each success?

As for magics danger on its own, I think its null. However the more extreme the destructive applications the higher chance the creation of bizarre magical phenomena that is dangerous to life.

^

That is a very fascinating potential story idea that we will likely never explore over the course of this storyline.

I have 2 theory :
1) By killing Zhaitan, we killed the body but his mind and magic were transfered somewhere so he could recover for another round some millenia later.

2) The Dragons work like the Highlanders if you kill one, his power is shared to the others making them more powerful, that would explain why they just don’t care about each other. That could make sure that they won’t band together if have to take them out one by one, each of them getting stronger than the previous one, making it more and more challenging.

Or he is dead dead and the canons were shooting anti-zhaitan magic stuff and sucked out all his magic by transforming it into fireworks.

The Sixteenth.2561:

I have 2 theory :
1) By killing Zhaitan, we killed the body but his mind and magic were transfered somewhere so he could recover for another round some millenia later.

So a similar process to how a Lich normally operates? Kill the body but don’t destroy the item that anchoring their spirit to this realm they will recreate it sometime later, preferably after you or whomever stopped them died of old age so they can continue their work without interference.

2) The Dragons work like the Highlanders if you kill one, his power is shared to the others making them more powerful, that would explain why they just don’t care about each other. That could make sure that they won’t band together if have to take them out one by one, each of them getting stronger than the previous one, making it more and more challenging.

Interesting theory but what would stop the Dragons from fighting one another then? If it was like highlander and they got stronger by the destruction of the other won’t they simply war with themselves until one remains and then go about destroying the world?

They are like the riddle (not sure if it’s called that) of the lions : you throw a piece of meat in a cage with x lions. When there is 1 3 5 7… Lions, they rush to the meat and the one who eats it goes to sleep while the others stare at each other, but on cages with 2 4 6 … Lions they just stare at each other. The rules were : lion eat lion, once it has eaten he must sleep leaving him defenceless.
If one start a fight and win he will be weakened and thus be an easy prey for the others as they gather magic since millenia, that could take decade or even centuries to recover. And unlike the riddle nothing garantee that once takken down to 3 or 5 they won’t get “eaten” since they would be way weaker after the fight, they you be like a piece of meat without the sleep obligation, or just a little sedated but still give a hard fight.

Edit: I remember now, it’s a math problem and the question was, then what if we puted x piece of meat with y lions, make a formula where the outcome is the number of lion that are sleeping.

Darkbattlemage.9612:

The Sixteenth.2561:

I have 2 theory :
1) By killing Zhaitan, we killed the body but his mind and magic were transfered somewhere so he could recover for another round some millenia later.

So a similar process to how a Lich normally operates? Kill the body but don’t destroy the item that anchoring their spirit to this realm they will recreate it sometime later, preferably after you or whomever stopped them died of old age so they can continue their work without interference.

I do not feel that so far in the GW universe Liches seem to work this way. It seems instead that it is almost a process of destroying the body and then the soul over and over again until the attachment is lost. This was the way in which Fendi Nin was killed, and a somewhat similar process was used to kill the Lich Lord. We destroyed his body and it seems part of his soul went into the Soul Batteries which powered the Door of Komalie, and we continued this process until he stayed dead.

Ludovicus.7980:

Of course. I’m not saying that this is the only way things could turn to be. I’m just saying that it is a plausible one. There are hints:
hint1: Verata was investigating on permanent minions
hint2: Verata’s cult had a base near the tower in GW1
hint3: The elementals in town are suspected to be animated by human souls.

Does that mean that it’s all because of Verata’s cult. Of course not.
But for me it is a strong possibility.

1) Elementals are not minions. Not even close.
2) Galrath and Marron trying to openly get access to the tower is a stronger hint, we don’t even know if Verata had interest in the tower.
3) Not really. All we know is that people are invited to live in the tower and are never heard from again, and that the elementals seem different than your typical mindless ones – seemingly forced against their will to serve.

There’s a far stronger tie to the White Mantle than to Verata (aside from two Justiciars – or rather, a Justiciar and someone suspected to be such – trying to gain access to the Wizard’s Tower, there’s also the fact that the White Mantle used the same ploy of special invitations to people who’re never seen of again (the Chosen being given teachings by the Grand Masters in the Temple of the Unseen but in actuality are sacrificed on the bloodstone)).

The possibility is there, yes, but there are many far more likely possibilities. And given how Anet hasn’t been keen on expanding the small tidbits of GW1’s lore – which IMO Verata is part of – I doubt that they’d do so for one.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

That the elementals are being forced to act against their nature, seems clear to me. Especially since one of them occasionally breaks free of it’s enchantment, and is instantly attacked by the others (-or at least, that is how it appears to me. That is speculation on my part).

The situation is that a kid orders two elementals to fight for entertainment. The one who loses flashes green and red (allied and hostile) while invulnerable afterwards, then remains permanently green until where they fight again.

Sorry for returning off-topic. I just had something to add to that, but nothing to add to the whole Zhaitan bit.

Though on the liches, Narcemus is right – thus far, liches do not function the same way as in typical fantasy settings. Despite the Ascended item of Khilbron’s Phylanctry, there’s no evidence that Khilbron, Joko, The Hunter, Mazdak, or Zoldark have such things. And while two are known to still be alive – Zoldark may have been killed, and Khilbron certainly was without destroying such an item. In the GW universe, liches are best described as “unkillable undead” – The Hunter is described in that he just never and cannot die. Joko too. Khilbron was killed because of the bloodstone and the soul batteries taking his soul. Mazdak – and other risen liches – were killed because of Caladbolg being an anti-undead weapon (there are risen liches not fought against with Caladbolg, but they’re in open world events so one can presume they merely return later, never dying like The Hunter). Even Zoldark may make a return, since we don’t do a checkup to ensure he remains dead (same with The Hunter, actually).

I would like to note that Fendi Nin was not a lich. Or at least never said to be one. But yes, the means to kill a lich in the GW universe is to “separate the connection between body and soul.”

If he’s dead, then he was a weakling unworthy of all the praise everybody kept giving him.

Dragon of undeath, raises entire continent from the ocean, creates legions of undead, feeds on magic and, has done all of this this possibly countless times before since the rizing of the Elder Dragons is a cycle.

Then he gets his tail blown off, his skin seared by cannonfire and falls into a lake – his body can be found underwater in Arah story mode – and he’s dead? No way.

Logically he’s alive, but just barely. He’s lost his army, control of orr, food and his body is gravely injured. Possibly he’s drifting around now, mostly powerless but also hidden, knowing he’s got to stay that way to recover. We likely find pieces of him that were shot off by the cannons and we assume he’s dead because we havent seen him since the fight.

However, he’s the dragon of undeath, some of his minions barely stick together, his own body appeared to have been made from various dragons. My guess is that some of the Elder Dragons have been defeated before, in earlier cycles. Yet no race was ever able to defeat them ALL, so they were destroyed, the dragons they beat recovered – Zhaitan repaired himself maybe, making him into the monstrosity we’ve seen – and when a next cycle dawned, they were all back.

I doubt we’ll see Zhaitan again in the game – since recovery would likely take decade if not more.
But if the Elder Dragons are that easy to kill, somebody would have done it before.

Zhaitan isn’t in some lake in Arah. That’s just a glitch-through the map, and the body of water his corpse can be found in just some map design thingie (don’t know the reason why, but benath all maps there’s an End of the World Ocean of Emptiness).

Thing is, as far as we know no cycles or races before had engineered a superlaser arrayed AGAINST Elder Dragons and their inner workings and energies. Zhaitan’s corpse now lies crushed under the thousands of tons of debris of the very tower where the gods had once lived.

Besides, Zhaitan’s champions were killed one after the other – which greatly damages Elder Dragons -, his corpse supply and minion-making facilities destroyed, his hold over the very font of magic of Orr broken, his food supply (relic-carrying ships) annihilated, he was starving without his Mouths for weeks, and was continously blinded with all his Eyes ripped apart. He was a broken shadow of his former when we killed him.

P.S.: Peninsula. The peninsula of Orr. ANet really loves blowing it out of proportions and saying it was a continent, but it was “only” the center of a peninsula (compare the Ruins of Orr with the GW1 map).

Yup, you can compare zhaitan to an elite army that won countless war, but once they got starved, cut out from any information and we ambush them with advanced technology weapon that goes through their armor like butter, while you have plenty of supplies and numerous spies reporting to you, with your army equiped with armor they can barely scratch. That gives you an easy win.

That’s how you figh an Elder Dragon, not rushing in front of him waving your sword hopping that might scratch him since he is quite invincible with the constant magic supply from all his mouths.

Thalador.4218:

(don’t know the reason why, but benath all maps there’s an End of the World Ocean of Emptiness).

I can answer that. Many game engines have only one giant body of water for all of the water in the level/zone. The Half-Life engine does this as well (TF2, Left 4 Dead 1 & 2, Portal). That’s because of the refraction calculations needed to get realistic looking water. Having multiple levels of water causes a problem for most of these game engines, where there is too much to compute. It can be compared to the hall of mirrors effect, which is why you don’t see many actual working mirrors in games. Portal is a rare exception to this rule, but it was specifically coded to have a limit to the number of portal iterations (but again, not to water reflections).

So any time you encounter a lake in Guild Wars 2, you know for a fact that any ocean or lake on the other side of the map is at exactly the same height, because it’s basically just one big volume spanning the whole map.

I don’t get it, why would they put that much water in a map that don’t have water ? I fell in this huge ocean thingy in the ascalonian fractal where there is no water and anyway, the water level was like 5-6 meter below the floor…

Gandarel.5091:

This way I think the whole continent would be a lvl 80 zone – that’s too much. If we will ever get a new continent, we need some new leveling paths with them, or else it would be as abandoned as southsun.

Also,
*Kamadan
*Palawa Joko

we have many many lvl’ing zones already…
but if those location could have permanent lvl 80 scalling (in opposite to the Southsun :P)
and with that second…
crap I knew that someday natvie-english will crap me out
that’s all about that in our country we are reading “K” like in english is read “C” and have another “sound” (from lack of better word :P) and in most cases we read “J” like english “y” (so in our we could write “jes” and we will read it same way like in english is read “yes”) so when writing this post I though that Joko and Kamadan was a translation thing
for example we had a whole different word for Cantha…

The Sixteenth.2561:

I don’t get it, why would they put that much water in a map that don’t have water ? I fell in this huge ocean thingy in the ascalonian fractal where there is no water and anyway, the water level was like 5-6 meter below the floor…

All maps have one layer of water by default. If a map doesn’t need water, they simply raise all the land mass above the water level, so you don’t see it. If they want a lake, they lower the land mass till it is beneath the water line.

The fractal map is a weird exception, where you actually have multiple mini-maps (fractals) inside one map, yet still there is only one water level. Which means that any and all Fractals that involve water, must be in the lower regions of the map. And any that do not, must be floating in the higher regions.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

The Sixteenth.2561:

I don’t get it, why would they put that much water in a map that don’t have water ? I fell in this huge ocean thingy in the ascalonian fractal where there is no water and anyway, the water level was like 5-6 meter below the floor…

All maps have one layer of water by default. If a map doesn’t need water, they simply raise all the land mass above the water level, so you don’t see it. If they want a lake, they lower the land mass till it is beneath the water line.

The fractal map is a weird exception, where you actually have multiple mini-maps (fractals) inside one map, yet still there is only one water level. Which means that any and all Fractals that involve water, must be in the lower regions of the map. And any that do not, must be floating in the higher regions.

Gives a new meaning to Unending Ocean

That’s actually fascinating information. Aren’t there instances where there’s water in a map at a certain level, but also open spaces at that level?

Kirschwasser.3972:

That’s actually fascinating information. Aren’t there instances where there’s water in a map at a certain level, but also open spaces at that level?

In general any of the human/krytan zones you get multiple water bodies, all on the same level no matter how far away from eachother.
The three real exceptions to the “all water at the same level” is in the sylvari starting zone (the JP with the orb), the unfinished JP and the Chaos Crystal Caverns (all of them that could technically be a zone under the actual zone/fake instance because of the mechanic how you get in).

Unfinished JP15chars?

The unfinished JP isn’t an exception either. But it uses lava volumes. Lava is different from water. Lava in the game is not a fluid, but a 2d plane with an invisible damage volume on top of it. But even underneath the unfinished JP (I’m talking the one in Caledon Forest) is the same never ending ocean of water. In fact, the ending tunnel of the JP even ends right above the water of the map.

The maps tend to trick us into thinking there are different levels of water, because the landscape goes up and down to much.

I don’t think I know the Sylvari starting zone orb thing. But I doubt that it is different. All maps use the same rules. And Chaos Crystal Caverns, as far as I know, also uses the same water level as everything else. I should know, because I’ve been underneath several of these maps.

Andele.1306:

Kirschwasser.3972:

That’s actually fascinating information. Aren’t there instances where there’s water in a map at a certain level, but also open spaces at that level?

In general any of the human/krytan zones you get multiple water bodies, all on the same level no matter how far away from eachother.
The three real exceptions to the “all water at the same level” is in the sylvari starting zone (the JP with the orb), the unfinished JP and the Chaos Crystal Caverns (all of them that could technically be a zone under the actual zone/fake instance because of the mechanic how you get in).

The unfinished JP is actually just above the water level, the ground above it is quite high, and to reach Spelunker’s Delve, you swim through an underwater tunnel to an area under a border mountain. Both use the same water level.

Gandarel.5091:

If his body is just a shell and he can rebuild that, why did he do that beneath a sunken peninsula? omg..

Because that sunken peninsula had a surplus of corpses.

I don’t really know what to think. The theory that dragons are mere impressions of the presence magic (like shadows in terms of actual light) has solid theoretic foundations – but that theory has literally zero cannon lore backing it up.

Hypothetically (nothing to do with lore, but from what I understand of the physics of Tyria) if dragons could be killed, nature would be forced to find another solution to maintaining the magical equilibrium – violent and dangerous rifts into the mists come to mind. I strongly doubt we will ever get to see that far into the lore though – although, having likely killed one dragon we might start seeing some of the effects. Hmmm: https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/clockwork-chaos-guide/

If Zhaitan was here today, he’d cry over how much more attention Scarlet gets than him QQ

Its possible. We know that the Shatterer is a title given to Kralk’s champion, and is given to another once the current one dies.

But for all we know, the thing we fought might not even be Zhaitan. For a start, the real Zhaitan knows everything his Risen knows, and we know that the Risen has some very, very powerful mesmers in their ranks. That Zhaitan we fought could easily just be an illusion.

Zhaitan is dead. It took a long campaign of starving him and killing his champions to weaken him enough for whole armada of ships to begin battle with him. On other hand, Destiny’s Edge almost killed Kralk with alot less preparations, and he is alot more powerful than Zhaitan is. Thus its not hard to beleve we really killed him…

Xae Isareth.1364:

Its possible. We know that the Shatterer is a title given to Kralk’s champion, and is given to another once the current one dies.

The weird thing is, even thought they included this bit of lore, we don’t ever see the Shatterer die. He just flies of every single time.

Also, Kralkatorrik should consider naming his champions something that doesn’t conjure up the image of something falling apart.

The Shatterer blows up at the northern edge of the map/over the unexplorable regions after he takes off. Unfortunately, every part of him is blown to tiny crystal smithereens, so his metal-like head cannot be found lying tumbed in the Brand.

Watch his explosion the next time you’re there.

(Still, the most stupid corpse-disappearance is the Claw’s. Tequatl falls into a very deep part of the sea, but the Claw’s body would fall on a quaggan village… .__.)

I wanted to point out that viewing Zaithan lying prone in a body of water doesn’t really mean much at all. Consider that prior to waking another Elder Dragon was occasionally mistaken for a mountain range whilst lying dormant. Zaithan may be dead, he may be badly injured yet nonetheless “undead” or he may have simply returned to a state of hibernation. Whatever you choose to believe, viewing his prone body doesn’t mean anything. Without further clarification from the Devs we just don’t know…

Stephen.6312:

I wanted to point out that viewing Zaithan lying prone in a body of water doesn’t really mean much at all. Consider that prior to waking another Elder Dragon was occasionally mistaken for a mountain range whilst lying dormant. Zaithan may be dead, he may be badly injured yet nonetheless “undead” or he may have simply returned to a state of hibernation. Whatever you choose to believe, viewing his prone body doesn’t mean anything. Without further clarification from the Devs we just don’t know…

You don’t really need to rationalize it any further than “glitched content is not canon” . Your argument is sound though.

I’ve always thought that the dead body in the water was originally going to be a cutscene we see of Zhaitan’s body sinking into the depths. A kind of mirror to him rising from the depths.

Either way, they removed any evidence we should see of his body before release hit, so it doesn’t matter.

Part of me really wants him to be dead. I just dislike the whole idea of no-one attempting to make sure he’s actually dead or not, or actually even attempting to look for a body. Then the other part of me really wants ANet to revamp his battle so he isn’t completely pathetic to fight, and if they have to tie that into a LW release for some reason, then I’ll deal with him never being dead.

Well magic cannot be destroyed. When something this powerful dies, its power have to pass on elsewhere.

Remember that the elder dragons are supposedly more powerful than the 6 gods, including Abaddon. When Abaddon died, his magic passsed on to Komir.

@JayMack: That body of water is just the “end of the world” effect for Arah – since every map has only one level of water, that’s just the bottom of it. Technically, Arah story is made of 2 maps – the first being shared with explorable, the seoncd being the “above the sky” map – the latter is not above the first, mechanically, due to that shared body of water, but is likely placed adjacent to it.

@CHIPS: Magic cannot be destroyed, as far as we know, true… but Zhaitan’s body isn’t destroyed. He’s just killed. Take Glint’s corpse per the Trek of the Zephyrites short story for example. Her corpse is just a magical sponge.