Guild Wars 2

Supermagnum.3458:

Put’s tinfoil hat on My theory is that Menzies was left in the realm of torment. With the planting of the pale tree, it provided Menzies with a link into Tyria. The dragons are the generals of the gods, whose role is to raise an army in order to destroy the pale tree to close the link. Also the dragons feeding on magic is so that they can gain power to help accomplish this goal.

We are being used by Menzies to destroy the elder dragons so that he can absorb their magic. This is seen by the orb(Zaitans) being incorporated into the light orb(the Pale Tree). Menzies needs this magic in order to create a gateway from the realm of torment into Tyria.

The Pale Tree appearing to represent light fits, as shadows only exist with the presence of light after all.

You may be right as as I’m starting to think that the gods are actually not as good as we say they are. and they are using the dragons to rebuild their own realms at the cost of Tyria’s health and thus by GW 3: We killed your dragons and we will be killing you all too!

Chrispy.5641:

BrunoBRS.5178:

but let’s say we ignore all the lore, all the facts, all the estabilished things that disprove your theory, because you really, really want it to be true. what does it achieve? what importance can the order of the “stirring of the champions” possibly have? with the exception of glint and the great destroyer, none of the elder dragon champions so far have had any relevance to the plot, and with the exception of glint, they’ve all been disposable and replaceable (there’s a freaking army of tequatl clones flying through orr).

I know that you are neck deep in an argument, arguing over the finer points of speculation….., but your statements aren’t entirely true. There is atleast one other Dragon champion we know of that was active 250 years ago in Cantha. Kuunavang was very important to the plot in Factions. And even though Drakar was frozen in a lake, he was influencing several characters on Tyria, which could mean that he too was active in a way.

That’s 4 of 6 champions that we know of that were active before their masters woke up. Either way, the order would still be wrong, because the blue(or white) and purple orbs should have lit up first if this was the case.

kuunavang is not an elder dragon champion though. she’s an entity in itself, not tied to any elder dragons. and drakkar only became active around the time of eye of the north, and even then, we can’t tell if svanir was a one-off or if it became recurrent until jormag’s awakening.

but regardless, the whole “champion awakening” thing is moot because glint never went to sleep to begin with. she’d been around for 10.000 years.

BrunoBRS.5178:

Chrispy.5641:

BrunoBRS.5178:

but let’s say we ignore all the lore, all the facts, all the estabilished things that disprove your theory, because you really, really want it to be true. what does it achieve? what importance can the order of the “stirring of the champions” possibly have? with the exception of glint and the great destroyer, none of the elder dragon champions so far have had any relevance to the plot, and with the exception of glint, they’ve all been disposable and replaceable (there’s a freaking army of tequatl clones flying through orr).

I know that you are neck deep in an argument, arguing over the finer points of speculation….., but your statements aren’t entirely true. There is atleast one other Dragon champion we know of that was active 250 years ago in Cantha. Kuunavang was very important to the plot in Factions. And even though Drakar was frozen in a lake, he was influencing several characters on Tyria, which could mean that he too was active in a way.

That’s 4 of 6 champions that we know of that were active before their masters woke up. Either way, the order would still be wrong, because the blue(or white) and purple orbs should have lit up first if this was the case.

kuunavang is not an elder dragon champion though. she’s an entity in itself, not tied to any elder dragons. and drakkar only became active around the time of eye of the north, and even then, we can’t tell if svanir was a one-off or if it became recurrent until jormag’s awakening.

but regardless, the whole “champion awakening” thing is moot because glint never went to sleep to begin with. she’d been around for 10.000 years.

So now whose the one using mental gymnastics?

I know the whole champion awakening thing as a theory has as many holes in it as any other theory so far, and I already said that in my last post that the theory falls apart when you look at the order of the orbs.

on the champions…..There is no evidence that Kuunavang is or isn’t a dragon champion. No source has said otherwise unless you have a link.

There isn’t even a source that has confirmed or denied that Rotscale was or wasn’t a champion of Zhaitan. In fact, he was updated to be much stronger, and drop unique weapons when defeated. Updated a few months before Eye of the North and Guild Ward 2 were revealed. (hey, that’s 5 out of 6 elder dragons with active champions! Lets see if we can find one for the last dragon!)

B4 we start to get mangled in a 3way discussion, please keep in mind whos responding to whom when

@BrunoBRS, as long as you don’t make a debate personal I don’t really care whether there comes smoke out of your ears and fire out of your eyes when you write your response ^^.

But as far as Glint goes, she has long been detached from Kralkatorrik, for over those 10.000y. In fact the whole lore around Glint starts with the elder races freeing her from Kralkatorrik’s grasp. I mean, don’t get me wrong here, but using her as any excuse for anything related to the Dragons now, apart from the vengeance of Kralkatorrik upon his awakening, is pretty much moot (to use one of your words).

By now I would also like to see some sources for where you draw all these ‘facts’, because as you point at me saying I ignore lore, but so far you bring up new stuff as you go and fail to produce any source for your claims. More Zhaitan Champs? I am not sure of you talk about http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cobiah_Marriner ‘The Maw’ which by all means is described as an undead deep sea fish, while large and named, there is nothing to suggest he was an actual Champ, sounds more like a luitanant or simply a boss size creature.

The Shatterer a byproduct of the brand? http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Shatterer I read no such suggestion. Only that if a dragon champ dies another takes his place, and that there can be only one… Which btw. disproves that there are more Champions of Dragons around.

So really, unless you provide actual sources for your claims, which you use to ‘disprove’ my theory, I’m going to say that your claims prove nothing, and in the least that my theory might be wrong. Get your facts straight, and preferably sourced, and we can talk
some more…

ps. if you quote somebody, but don’t actually use the quote, please just use an @name to make clear whom you are responding too and do not quote. If you only use a small portion, plz delete and snip the rest. Quoting these large bits of text is really annoying for anyone wanting to follow a discussion, esp. so if the text is right there only 2 or 3 posts above a reaction. This is a mere friendly request

3 Way conversations are the best conversations! Although its not really 3 ways, I was just disagreeing with one part about who was and wasn’t an active dragon champion from before the Elder Dragons ever woke up (and I did snip the irrelevant parts of BrunoBRS’s post as well before I replied to it).

Also @ Arghore ::: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dragon_champion

there can be many more than just one dragon champion at a time.

Chrispy.5641:

BrunoBRS.5178:

Chrispy.5641:

BrunoBRS.5178:

but let’s say we ignore all the lore, all the facts, all the estabilished things that disprove your theory, because you really, really want it to be true. what does it achieve? what importance can the order of the “stirring of the champions” possibly have? with the exception of glint and the great destroyer, none of the elder dragon champions so far have had any relevance to the plot, and with the exception of glint, they’ve all been disposable and replaceable (there’s a freaking army of tequatl clones flying through orr).

I know that you are neck deep in an argument, arguing over the finer points of speculation….., but your statements aren’t entirely true. There is atleast one other Dragon champion we know of that was active 250 years ago in Cantha. Kuunavang was very important to the plot in Factions. And even though Drakar was frozen in a lake, he was influencing several characters on Tyria, which could mean that he too was active in a way.

That’s 4 of 6 champions that we know of that were active before their masters woke up. Either way, the order would still be wrong, because the blue(or white) and purple orbs should have lit up first if this was the case.

kuunavang is not an elder dragon champion though. she’s an entity in itself, not tied to any elder dragons. and drakkar only became active around the time of eye of the north, and even then, we can’t tell if svanir was a one-off or if it became recurrent until jormag’s awakening.

but regardless, the whole “champion awakening” thing is moot because glint never went to sleep to begin with. she’d been around for 10.000 years.

So now whose the one using mental gymnastics?

I know the whole champion awakening thing as a theory has as many holes in it as any other theory so far, and I already said that in my last post that the theory falls apart when you look at the order of the orbs.

on the champions…..There is no evidence that Kuunavang is or isn’t a dragon champion. No source has said otherwise unless you have a link.

There isn’t even a source that has confirmed or denied that Rotscale was or wasn’t a champion of Zhaitan. In fact, he was updated to be much stronger, and drop unique weapons when defeated. Updated a few months before Eye of the North and Guild Ward 2 were revealed. (hey, that’s 5 out of 6 elder dragons with active champions! Lets see if we can find one for the last dragon!)

again, kuunavang is not a dragon champion. nor is rotscale for that matter. please don’t assume every winged reptile in this game is tied to elder dragons if there is absolutely no proof of it.

here’s how it works: if you want to assume that kuunavang, rotscale or whoever have you is an elder dragon champion, the burden of proof is on you, because you’re the one making the assumption. it’s the “innocent until proven guilty” argument. no proof that she is, thus she isn’t. unless you can provide a source to the contrary, that is. but other than “scales and wings”, there’s nothing linking any of the GW1 dragons to elder dragons, except glint, who was explicitly said to be an elder dragon champion.

i don’t see any mental gymnastics on my part, i’m just listing things. the only dragon champions known to be active prior to their rise are glint (who gained self will through a seer ritual, but still calls kralkatorrik her master. she’s a traitor, but still his creation), the great destroyer and, to an extent, drakkar. kuunavang and rotscale are absolutely not champions until proven otherwise. rotscale was fromthe freaking shiverpeaks. at no point in time was he anywhere near zhaitan.

Arghore.8340:

B4 we start to get mangled in a 3way discussion, please keep in mind whos responding to whom when

@BrunoBRS, as long as you don’t make a debate personal I don’t really care whether there comes smoke out of your ears and fire out of your eyes when you write your response ^^.

But as far as Glint goes, she has long been detached from Kralkatorrik, for over those 10.000y. In fact the whole lore around Glint starts with the elder races freeing her from Kralkatorrik’s grasp. I mean, don’t get me wrong here, but using her as any excuse for anything related to the Dragons now, apart from the vengeance of Kralkatorrik upon his awakening, is pretty much moot (to use one of your words).

By now I would also like to see some sources for where you draw all these ‘facts’, because as you point at me saying I ignore lore, but so far you bring up new stuff as you go and fail to produce any source for your claims. More Zhaitan Champs? I am not sure of you talk about http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cobiah_Marriner ‘The Maw’ which by all means is described as an undead deep sea fish, while large and named, there is nothing to suggest he was an actual Champ, sounds more like a luitanant or simply a boss size creature.

The Shatterer a byproduct of the brand? http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Shatterer I read no such suggestion. Only that if a dragon champ dies another takes his place, and that there can be only one… Which btw. disproves that there are more Champions of Dragons around.

So really, unless you provide actual sources for your claims, which you use to ‘disprove’ my theory, I’m going to say that your claims prove nothing, and in the least that my theory might be wrong. Get your facts straight, and preferably sourced, and we can talk
some more…

ps. if you quote somebody, but don’t actually use the quote, please just use an @name to make clear whom you are responding too and do not quote. If you only use a small portion, plz delete and snip the rest. Quoting these large bits of text is really annoying for anyone wanting to follow a discussion, esp. so if the text is right there only 2 or 3 posts above a reaction. This is a mere friendly request

as chrispy pointed out, there can be multiple elder dragon champions (also check his link for zhaitan’s champion killed by cobiah). as i pointed out, you can just head to orr and see dozens of tequatl clones flying around, not counting all the eyes and mouths of zhaitan.

as i explained on the previous post, she hasn’t been detached from kralkatorrik. she gained free will, yes, and that allowed her to betray her master, but she remains an elder dragon champion. it’s not a title, or a game mechanic, it’s something she is, regardless of her opinion. she’s the equivalent of a hypothetical risen fighting against zhaitan, just because he’s fighting zhaitan doesn’t mean he’s not risen anymore.

as for the shatterer, read the link you gave. his only purpose is commanding the branded and maintaining the brand. if there’s no brand, there’s no shatterer.

and as i said to chrispy, the burden of proof is on the person speculating. i’m taking what the lore gives me at face value, you’re the one assuming things, thus you’re the one that has to prove your assumptions, and if i find they disagree with current canon, i will call them out.

regarding your PS, i personally find it easier to follow discussions when everyone uses quotes. plus, it’s easier to reply if i can just read your post on my text box.

(because I really need to goto sleep, im gonna keep this short, a more extensive response will follow)

@Bruno, you may wanna check that link also, though I will spare you the click, and just quote what it says there, mainly because it’s more prove of my point of view…

The champions also seem to play a role in the awakening of the dragons , Primordus’ awakening having being heralded by the Great Destroyer and delayed by fifty years upon that champions’ defeat. Some comments by the developers have suggested that the dragons use their champions to gather some sort of magical energy for their awakening by assimilating more beings into the dragon armies. it even has a source linked to it.

Which then makes it quite easy to put the order of the orbs lighting up against the order we know the dragons awaken. And conclude that some Champions took longer than others …

I will write some more about what ‘a Dragon Champion’ is, and what a ‘Champion of a Dragon’ is tomorrow, because if I see that list, then some might have been a Champion (in the way the game uses ‘Champion’), but only a couple were actual ‘Dragon Champions’, as in the Chief Commander of the forces of Zhaitan. There may well be Dragons that are quite similar to ‘it’, but they are not in Command. Basically like it says in the bit about the Shatterer. There is only 1 ‘Shatterer’, in command of the corrupted forces that reside in the Brand. But once he is defeated another takes his place. Meaning, there are more Dragons of his size, they are just not in command…

That is also why Glint f/e may be a dragon spawn, and once was a Champion of Kralkatorrik. But once she gained a free will, she was no longer a Champion of Kralkatorrik, she was just a Free Willed Dragonspawn…

BrunoBRS.5178:

again, kuunavang is not a dragon champion. nor is rotscale for that matter. please don’t assume every winged reptile in this game is tied to elder dragons if there is absolutely no proof of it.

here’s how it works: if you want to assume that kuunavang, rotscale or whoever have you is an elder dragon champion, the burden of proof is on you, because you’re the one making the assumption. it’s the “innocent until proven guilty” argument. no proof that she is, thus she isn’t. unless you can provide a source to the contrary, that is. but other than “scales and wings”, there’s nothing linking any of the GW1 dragons to elder dragons, except glint, who was explicitly said to be an elder dragon champion.

i don’t see any mental gymnastics on my part, i’m just listing things. the only dragon champions known to be active prior to their rise are glint (who gained self will through a seer ritual, but still calls kralkatorrik her master. she’s a traitor, but still his creation), the great destroyer and, to an extent, drakkar. kuunavang and rotscale are absolutely not champions until proven otherwise. rotscale was fromthe freaking shiverpeaks. at no point in time was he anywhere near zhaitan.

I say they ‘could’ be, and that ‘could’ be is based on reasonable speculation on what exactly constitutes a drake, a dragon, an elder dragon, and a champion of a dragon.

• In Guild Wars 1, Drakes were considered dragons in Tyria and Elona though still called Drakes. In Cantha, everything with scales was called a dragon though there were no actual drakes. There were turtles and salt spray dragons (who looked like miniature versions of Kunnavang)
• In Guild Wars 2, Drakes are more like common reptiles with magic breath abilities, and there isn’t anything in either game that links them to the Elder Dragons or their Champions, the only things understood to be actual Dragons in Guild Wars 2.
• In either game, nothing called a Drake ever had wings or could fly. Kunnavang, Saltspray Dragons, Rotscale and Rotting Dragons were the only ones that were.

• Lets stick with Rotscale and the Rotting Dragons. They are considered undead, and even if Rotscale and his small army of Rotting dragons originated from the Shiverpeaks, one of the items they drop is the Decayed Orr Emblem, an item that they could only be holding if they originated from Orr. It doesn’t matter if the Rotting Dragons were part of the undead army raised by the Lich or, not. The fact is, they are linked to Orr.
• Based on that conclusion, we can say without a shadow of a doubt that Rotscale and his Rotting Dragons originated from Orr, went to the Shiverpeaks, then went to Majesty’s Rest. Being an Undead Dragon from orr begs the question over whether or not he was originally a minion of Zhaitan. There is no proof that can disprove anything I just wrote, even the scribe article that explains Rotscale a little more, because it only says that Rotscale came to Majesty’s Rest from the shiverpeaks, but made no mention of what happened before that. The Decayed Orr Emblems prove where they came from before that.

• Now to Kuunavang.
• The Movement of the World Article mentions Kuunavang several times, and every time she is mentioned, it is always “Glint and Kuunavang” or “Kuunavang and Glint”. They are also always compared to the ‘Elder’ Dragons when they are mentioned, and specific mentions are made that both Kuunavang and Glint didn’t exist until after the Elder Dragons did.
• We know that Glint was a Champion of Kralkatorrik.
• There is no reason to bother mentioning Kuunavang in that article at all if she wasn’t a Dragon Champion, a Dragon, and especially if she was just some form of a giant flying Drake.
• Since we know that she only came into existence after the Elder Dragons came into existence, we can’t just say that she spontaneously existed, and there is no evidence that she came from the mist either.
• The only obvious conclusion that can be made based on all this evidence is that Kuunavang is possibly the Champion of an Elder Dragon, just like Glint was. Whether its a Dragon we know about or a new dragon related to her power set is unknown.

I don’t need 100% of the facts to make a conclusion on already existing information. Scientists didn’t make a theory on the Higgs Boson when they discovered it. They made the theory decades before based on already existing evidence.

You say they aren’t …. based on nothing. you can’t even bother yourself to link anything that disproves a single word I have said. If You disagree, you need to actually present facts supporting why any of us are wrong. If you cannot, then you yourself are wrong and there is no point for you to be endlessly arguing about speculation if you have neither speculation to add yourself or evidence to disprove it. If the burden of proof falls onto me, then the burden of disproof falls to you to disprove anything I have said so far, which you can’t.

Chrispy.5641:

There is atleast one other Dragon champion we know of that was active 250 years ago in Cantha. Kuunavang….

We don’t know that for certain. It’s still a stretch at this point.

sigh this is the last time i’ll bother, because i can only bang my head against a wall so many times.

@Arghore – i never said the order indicate awakening of the dragons. in fact, i think they don’t represent anything. it’s merely aesthetic.

you don’t have to explain/theorize more on what elder dragon champions are, because we have that information. they’re creations of the elder dragons that are more powerful and have a will of their own so they can interpret their master’s bidding. you can’t say “no, only the dragon shaped ones really count”, because then you’re just plugging your ears and ignoring lore. “dragon champion” literally means “champion of the [elder] dragon”, not “a champion that is also a dragon”.

“there is only one shatterer” doesn’t mean there is only one champion. it’s the shatterer title that’s passed onto another, and nowhere in the article does it say the other dragon is even alive at the time. given how the shatterer looks like a spawn of the brand rather than a living thing that was corrupted by it, we can’t confirm nor deny the existence of other dragons, so we err on the side of caution, which is “nope, no other dragons until i see them”.

i won’t repeat myself over glint, because this post explains being that a dragon champion has nothing to do with rank. the rank is a side effect of being a champion, not the other way around.

@Chrispy – you’re so focused on the trees you can’t see the forest. want an example of how rotscale could have that emblem? he was alive during, i don’t know, the guild wars (giving it a reason to be on the shiverpeaks, if it wanted to punch some ascalonians), but any time frame before the cataclysm is fine. so he’s alive, with an orrian emblem because he was under orrian control (tamed or with a conscience of his own, who knows), dies on the shiverpeaks. bam. the end. having an orrian emblem doesn’t automatically tie you to zhaitan. orr didn’t even know zhaitan was a thing. all having an orrian emblem indicates is a tie to orr, not zhaitan.

zhaitan didn’t begin corrupting risen until after his awakening. there is a difference between regular undead and risen. rotscale is the former.

kuunavang is mentioned in the movement exactly 3 times, and none of them is to do anything other than provide a point of reference. she’s the only other “dragon”. the first mention is pointing out how she and glint are much lesser than elder dragons in scale of power, because those two are the only “dragons” we knew of.

“Although these creatures are called dragons, they are as different from Kuunavang and Glint as night to day—more powerful, older, born of different, unfathomable magic, these horrors are controlled by no god nor any other power known to the races of Tyria. What connection they have to these “younger dragons” is unknown, but they certainly do not possess the mercy or familiarity with the sentient races of the world that Kuunavang or Glint portray."

please do remember how glint got said mercy and familiarity. she was a dragon champion, but she was also “cleansed” (wrong word, but you get the meaning) by an extremely powerful Forgotten ritual. had the forgotten not been around, glint would still be Glaust, bane of tyria and all living things. she’d be another tequatl, with no mind of her own, only a desperate will to spread kralkatorrik’s power.

so how would kuunavang be an elder dragon champion when she has this same free will as glint, but no forgotten (or records of a previous rise) in cantha? in fact, if all dragons are converging to tyria, what would kuunavang be doing on the other side of the world?

what’s more, all elder dragon champions that were active between rises were a relic of the previous rise. if kuunavang came to exist (and “spontaneously appearing” is as good a theory as any, given we don’t know where the heck the other younger races of tyria came from) after the previous rise, that’s more evidence to her not being a champion.

BrunoBRS.5178:

orr didn’t even know zhaitan was a thing. all having an orrian emblem indicates is a tie to orr, not zhaitan.

I feel like critiquing this point. While I can agree with everything else you’ve stated, the gods did choose the placement of Orr based on the energies it gave off. The link is there, Zhaitan was the source as believed by Arah EXP. Think of it like radioactive decay, if you stick around too long you can contract radiation sickness. Considering that, it’s possible that items became contaminated and so for some reason or another, reacted.

Ronin.7381:

BrunoBRS.5178:

orr didn’t even know zhaitan was a thing. all having an orrian emblem indicates is a tie to orr, not zhaitan.

I feel like critiquing this point. While I can agree with everything else you’ve stated, the gods did choose the placement of Orr based on the energies it gave off. The link is there, Zhaitan was the source as believed by Arah EXP. Think of it like radioactive decay, if you stick around too long you can contract radiation sickness. Considering that, it’s possible that items became contaminated and so for some reason or another, reacted.

yes, the gods chose arah due to its high magical levels. the asuras also chose “right in front of primordus” as the location of the central transfer chamber of their gate network.

they knew it had a lot of magic. they didn’t know there was an ungodly, world ending creature next to it, nor that said creature was the cause of such magic overflow.

and magic is just magic. the asuras didn’t start turning into minions of primordus because they spent so much time next to him, nor did the orrians turn into zombies without someone (first khilbron and then zhaitan) actively reanimating their corpses. and both civilizations spent centuries, if not millenia, right next to these dragons with no signs of corruption. the magic leaked by the dragons is not like radioactive decay.

BrunoBRS.5178:

sigh this is the last time i’ll bother, because i can only bang my head against a wall so many times.

@Arghore – i never said the order indicate awakening of the dragons. in fact, i think they don’t represent anything. it’s merely aesthetic.

you don’t have to explain/theorize more on what elder dragon champions are, because we have that information. they’re creations of the elder dragons that are more powerful and have a will of their own so they can interpret their master’s bidding. you can’t say “no, only the dragon shaped ones really count”, because then you’re just plugging your ears and ignoring lore. “dragon champion” literally means “champion of the [elder] dragon”, not “a champion that is also a dragon”.

“there is only one shatterer” doesn’t mean there is only one champion. it’s the shatterer title that’s passed onto another, and nowhere in the article does it say the other dragon is even alive at the time. given how the shatterer looks like a spawn of the brand rather than a living thing that was corrupted by it, we can’t confirm nor deny the existence of other dragons, so we err on the side of caution, which is “nope, no other dragons until i see them”.

i won’t repeat myself over glint, because this post explains being that a dragon champion has nothing to do with rank. the rank is a side effect of being a champion, not the other way around.

- I guess we can at least agree then, that we end this discussion with mutual feelings.

- Yes Obviously you never said that, because I’m the one arguing that the order of the Vision is the order the ‘magical domains’ begin to stir, which then awakens a Champion who then… well, like you said at the start…

- “they’re creations of the elder dragons that are more powerful and have a will of their own so they can interpret their master’s bidding.”
I know this is a quote from one of the Dev’s in the early days of GW2, but my personal opinion is that this is taken way out of context. While this was mentioned as a quality of the Champions, it was never said that there were no other’s that could do the same thing, but didn’t constitute as a Champion. Because with that statement came the bit where it said that these Champions were the Prime Commander, or General, basically the highest ranked in all the spawn. A, what can only be described as the ‘chef of the kitchen’, while obviously in charge of the food, hardly constitutes as a Champion. Aka. a Mouth of Zhaitan might be a ‘champion’ in the game (as per difficulty level), but that doesn’t make it The Champion. Same for various other creatures on that list…

To this I will add, sure, it doesn’t have to be a ‘dragon’ shape, but The Champion of a Dragon does have to be the leader of the whole…

part 2. (dang, over 5000)

- In regards to the Shatterer, while we only see one actual Shatterer flying around. And I will say that I am not entirely sure of this, but from my memory, in the book (think it’s the first) that actually deals with the brand, I think is mentioned that the sky is literally swarming with dragons (of all sizes). Kind off like how you mentioned that ‘Tequatl’ is so easily replaced because it is swarming with Teqs in the sky (as per the Arah story instance). The same applies to the brand, and (again not entirely sure, because the image of the concept art for the brand is also in my head as the mental image of how that would look, still though, I am confidant enough to say that it was actually mentioned in the book) thus this also accounts for why there can be a Shatterer every ‘time’ we play him. It is merely another existing dragon moving up in rank after The Champion is defeated. Which is basically what the wiki piece is referring too, there can be only ONE general/prime-commander at a time, if one is defeated (given that the actual Dragon it works for is awake and kicking) another takes it’s place (if the actual dragon is not yet awake, this will set back the awakening of said dragon, as per lore (aka the events in EotN).)

- In regards to the end, then perhaps you should re-evaluate your views here, because, and I will say this again. You blame me for ignoring the lore, but it seems I am the one trying to stick to the lore that I find. You just seem to make things up as you go in order ‘not to loose’ the discussion, and do so (so far) by giving as few sources for your claims, and where you site lore you seem to nit pick what suits you. Be it that discussion is somewhat about that, though in the end, you and I both should at least agree on the Lore bits, the conclusions we draw from that though, well I would say we are both free to our opinions…

So, you said the order of the orbs in the vision has nothing to do with the order of the dragons awakening, its mere looks and pretty. I try to explain it by dragging in a bunch of known facts, which seems to explain what is going on. Which it needs, because as you indeed pointed out correctly, without explaining what is going, the order is ‘wrong’ in regards to the order we know (for fact, with which I agree) that the dragons awoke. So either somebody made a mistake, or perhaps even, resources were spent on something that was bound to stir up a lot of talk & speculation, and all it was, was only looks and pretty … errr … NO, this was intended and it was to further seed the lore that I pointed you to. Well in fact, I had the hunch way b4 I found the facts, and the more I looked the stronger my case.

Now does that ultimately proof anything, that I am absolutely right? NO, of course not, but from the sources that I have seen it is the most likely conclusion. Can you disagree with that, sure! But stop saying I do not follow known lore, while the fact is that I do.

BrunoBRS.5178:

@Chrispy – you’re so focused on the trees you can’t see the forest. want an example of how rotscale could have that emblem? he was alive during, i don’t know, the guild wars (giving it a reason to be on the shiverpeaks, if it wanted to punch some ascalonians), but any time frame before the cataclysm is fine. so he’s alive, with an orrian emblem because he was under orrian control (tamed or with a conscience of his own, who knows), dies on the shiverpeaks. bam. the end. having an orrian emblem doesn’t automatically tie you to zhaitan. orr didn’t even know zhaitan was a thing. all having an orrian emblem indicates is a tie to orr, not zhaitan.

zhaitan didn’t begin corrupting risen until after his awakening. there is a difference between regular undead and risen. rotscale is the former.

kuunavang is mentioned in the movement exactly 3 times, and none of them is to do anything other than provide a point of reference. she’s the only other “dragon”. the first mention is pointing out how she and glint are much lesser than elder dragons in scale of power, because those two are the only “dragons” we knew of.

“Although these creatures are called dragons, they are as different from Kuunavang and Glint as night to day—more powerful, older, born of different, unfathomable magic, these horrors are controlled by no god nor any other power known to the races of Tyria. What connection they have to these “younger dragons” is unknown, but they certainly do not possess the mercy or familiarity with the sentient races of the world that Kuunavang or Glint portray."

please do remember how glint got said mercy and familiarity. she was a dragon champion, but she was also “cleansed” (wrong word, but you get the meaning) by an extremely powerful Forgotten ritual. had the forgotten not been around, glint would still be Glaust, bane of tyria and all living things. she’d be another tequatl, with no mind of her own, only a desperate will to spread kralkatorrik’s power.

so how would kuunavang be an elder dragon champion when she has this same free will as glint, but no forgotten (or records of a previous rise) in cantha? in fact, if all dragons are converging to tyria, what would kuunavang be doing on the other side of the world?

what’s more, all elder dragon champions that were active between rises were a relic of the previous rise. if kuunavang came to exist (and “spontaneously appearing” is as good a theory as any, given we don’t know where the heck the other younger races of tyria came from) after the previous rise, that’s more evidence to her not being a champion.

Wow. Are you sure you aren’t using any mental gymnastics in your posts? It seems like you put a lot of thought into exactly nothing since not a single thing you said disproves my post.