Guild Wars 2

Canakun.8031:

Raziel.4216:

^ I edited my previous post, providing links to the facts you denied btw

So did I

Actually two (I think) of the sources you provided said the same thing as what I’m saying.
http://content.healthaffairs.org/content/30/2/193.short this article deals with average earnings of all male newly trained physicians vs. newly trained female physicians. There are more newly trained male physicians, therefore more average earnings.

If you’re in the USA:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Male%E2%80%93female_income_disparity_in_the_United_States
“earnings”, not “individual wage”.

I’m not denying there’s an earnings gap, I’m explaining to you how it doesn’t mean anything other than there are more men working than women, espeically in higher paying fields.
There’s a lot of reasons for this. Child birth. Career choice. etc. etc.
You choose to see outrage for the sake of it.

Those links dont support your position, from the first’s abstract:

Prior research has suggested that gender differences in physicians’ salaries can be accounted for by the tendency of women to enter primary care fields and work fewer hours. However, in examining starting salaries by gender of physicians leaving residency programs in New York State during 1999–2008, we found a significant gender gap that cannot be explained by specialty choice, practice setting, work hours, or other characteristics. The unexplained trend toward diverging salaries appears to be a recent development that is growing over time. In 2008, male physicians newly trained in New York State made on average $16,819 more than newly trained female physicians, compared to a $3,600 difference in 1999.

Significant gender gap that cant be explained by the classic scapegoats, oh, guess what could explain it?

From the wikipedia, a few quotes since it’s too long:
The female-to-male earnings ratio of 0.81 means that, in 2009, female FTYR workers earned 19% less than male FTYR workers. The statistic does not take into account differences in experience, skill, occupation, education or hours worked, as long as it qualifies as full-time work. However, in 2010, an economist testified to the U.S. Congress Joint Economic Committee that studies “always find that some portion of the wage gap is unexplained” even after controlling for measurable factors that are assumed to influence earnings. The unexplained portion of the wage gap is attributed by some to gender discrimination.

Similarly, a comprehensive study by the staff of the U.S. Government Accountability Office found that the gender wage gap can only be partially explained by human capital factors and “work patterns.” The GAO study, released in 2003, was based on data from 1983 through 2000 from a representative sample of Americans between the ages of 25 and 65. The researchers controlled for “work patterns,” including years of work experience, education, and hours of work per year, as well as differences in industry, occupation, race, marital status, and job tenure. With controls for these variables in place, the data showed that women earned, on average, 20% less than men during the entire period 1983 to 2000. In a subsequent study, GAO found that the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission and the Department of Labor “should better monitor their performance in enforcing anti-discrimination laws.”

Your own links dont support you, please try again

I can’t believe this

Raziel.4216:

http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2014/04/08/3424043/gender-wage-gap-myth/
Plenty of info here, women who have the same education and work the same hours earn less, there is a pay gap that cant be explained by the classic scapegoats like “men work more” or “men have better education!”
The thinkprogress article has lots of links there, hope it enlightens you on the subject.

Again, from your source, first paragraph:

“That’s because even when they work full-time, year-round, they still make 77 percent, on average, of what similar men make”

This is literally just supporting my point. It is an issue of AVERAGES. Like I keep saying. All it tell us is that there are more men working than there are women. Even the most liberal news publication is debunking it: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/christina-hoff-sommers/wage-gap_b_2073804.html
By a feminist writer, no less.

All your second link tells me is that the tech guy had the same misconception as you do. Did you even read the article? The entire thing was the guy making a statement. Read your own sources please I beg you.

Raziel.4216:

THANK YOU for saying that, you see, diversification is GOOD for business!
Oh thank you for shooting yourself in the foot with that, here:
http://www.theesa.com/facts/pdfs/ESA_EF_2014.pdf
Notice 48% of gamers are female?
And only 4% of last year’s top games targetted this rough half of the gamer population.
There’re more girls playing than you knew, but I guess you’d have to read actual research instead of your “personal findings”

I’m aware of this statistic. I’m also aware that they include IOS and board games, which collectively make up 77% of games being played. It isn’t really talking about the video game industry. More males play console games. Top games are genuinely console games. Therefore, top console games will probably be console games most popular by a heavily male audience.

Also, “attributed by some to gender discrimination” is literally just someone like you sitting there and going OH YEP DEFINITELY GENDER DISCRIMINATION. You essentially just sourced yourself as proof there.
And if you think the bureau of statistics isn’t a professional finding then I don’t know what to tell ya, pal.

Canakun.8031:

Again, from your source, first paragraph:

“That’s because even when they work full-time, year-round, they still make 77 percent, on average, of what similar men make”

This is literally just supporting my point. It is an issue of AVERAGES. Like I keep saying. All it tell us is that there are more men working than there are women.

What’s the wage gap to you? Women, on AVERAGE, make 77% of what men make doing the same jobs with the same skillset, how does that support your position? I think I’m getting trolled here.
From your own link:
The researchers controlled for “work patterns,” including years of work experience, education, and hours of work per year, as well as differences in industry, occupation, race, marital status, and job tenure. With controls for these variables in place, the data showed that women earned, on average, 20% less than men during the entire period 1983 to 2000.

You should understand what wage gap is before talking about the subject

Canakun.8031:

All your second link tells me is that the tech guy had the same misconception as you do. Did you even read the article? The entire thing was the guy making a statement. Read your own sources please I beg you.

You dont even understand what wage gap means, also, read your own sources they dont even support you (pointed out in previous post)

Canakun.8031:

Raziel.4216:

THANK YOU for saying that, you see, diversification is GOOD for business!
Oh thank you for shooting yourself in the foot with that, here:
http://www.theesa.com/facts/pdfs/ESA_EF_2014.pdf
Notice 48% of gamers are female?
And only 4% of last year’s top games targetted this rough half of the gamer population.
There’re more girls playing than you knew, but I guess you’d have to read actual research instead of your “personal findings”

I’m aware of this statistic. I’m also aware that they include IOS and board games, which collectively make up 77% of games being played. It isn’t really talking about the video game industry.

The research takes computer & videogames into account, btw that number was pulled from the “who plays computer and video games” section, that almost looks like “hey the numbers dont support my position soooo it doesnt count”

Raziel.4216:

Canakun.8031:

Again, from your source, first paragraph:

“That’s because even when they work full-time, year-round, they still make 77 percent, on average, of what similar men make”

This is literally just supporting my point. It is an issue of AVERAGES. Like I keep saying. All it tell us is that there are more men working than there are women.

What’s the wage gap to you? Women, on AVERAGE, make 77% of what men make doing the same jobs with the same skillset, how does that support your position? I think I’m getting trolled here.

Canakun.8031:

All your second link tells me is that the tech guy had the same misconception as you do. Did you even read the article? The entire thing was the guy making a statement. Read your own sources please I beg you.

You dont even understand what wage gap means, also, read your own sources they dont even support you (pointed out in previous post)

Canakun.8031:

Raziel.4216:

THANK YOU for saying that, you see, diversification is GOOD for business!
Oh thank you for shooting yourself in the foot with that, here:
http://www.theesa.com/facts/pdfs/ESA_EF_2014.pdf
Notice 48% of gamers are female?
And only 4% of last year’s top games targetted this rough half of the gamer population.
There’re more girls playing than you knew, but I guess you’d have to read actual research instead of your “personal findings”

I’m aware of this statistic. I’m also aware that they include IOS and board games, which collectively make up 77% of games being played. It isn’t really talking about the video game industry.

The research takes computer & videogames into account, btw that number was pulled from the “who plays computer and video games” section, that almost looks like “hey the numbers dont support my position soooo it doesnt count”

It’s not a wage gap, it’s an earning gap, based on average earnings of all men vs all women. There are more men in the workforce, therefore men on average are earning more than women.
It’s not a wage gap, it’s an earning gap, based on average earnings of all men vs all women. There are more men in the workforce, therefore men on average are earning more than women.
It’s not a wage gap, it’s an earning gap, based on average earnings of all men vs all women. There are more men in the workforce, therefore men on average are earning more than women.

Just stop for a minute. Take a breath. Actually READ the words I am writing. Think about them for a minute, it isn’t difficult. Just think. Maybe even glance at the articles I am linking. Doesn’t have to be long. But just clear your mind of your ideological drive, and just read. You’ll get there.

Canakun.8031:

Raziel.4216:

Canakun.8031:

Again, from your source, first paragraph:

“That’s because even when they work full-time, year-round, they still make 77 percent, on average, of what similar men make”

This is literally just supporting my point. It is an issue of AVERAGES. Like I keep saying. All it tell us is that there are more men working than there are women.

What’s the wage gap to you? Women, on AVERAGE, make 77% of what men make doing the same jobs with the same skillset, how does that support your position? I think I’m getting trolled here.

Canakun.8031:

All your second link tells me is that the tech guy had the same misconception as you do. Did you even read the article? The entire thing was the guy making a statement. Read your own sources please I beg you.

You dont even understand what wage gap means, also, read your own sources they dont even support you (pointed out in previous post)

Canakun.8031:

Raziel.4216:

THANK YOU for saying that, you see, diversification is GOOD for business!
Oh thank you for shooting yourself in the foot with that, here:
http://www.theesa.com/facts/pdfs/ESA_EF_2014.pdf
Notice 48% of gamers are female?
And only 4% of last year’s top games targetted this rough half of the gamer population.
There’re more girls playing than you knew, but I guess you’d have to read actual research instead of your “personal findings”

I’m aware of this statistic. I’m also aware that they include IOS and board games, which collectively make up 77% of games being played. It isn’t really talking about the video game industry.

The research takes computer & videogames into account, btw that number was pulled from the “who plays computer and video games” section, that almost looks like “hey the numbers dont support my position soooo it doesnt count”

It’s not a wage gap, it’s an earning gap, based on average earnings of all men vs all women. There are more men in the workforce, therefore men on average are earning more than women.
It’s not a wage gap, it’s an earning gap, based on average earnings of all men vs all women. There are more men in the workforce, therefore men on average are earning more than women.
It’s not a wage gap, it’s an earning gap, based on average earnings of all men vs all women. There are more men in the workforce, therefore men on average are earning more than women.

Just stop for a minute. Take a breath. Actually READ the words I am writing. Think about them for a minute, it isn’t difficult. Just think. Maybe even glance at the articles I am linking. Doesn’t have to be long. But just clear your mind of your ideological drive, and just read. You’ll get there.

Really, after your own sources support my position, you ask me to read?

Wage: Payment for labor or services to a worker, especially remuneration on an hourly, daily, or weekly basis or by the piece.
Earning: To gain especially for the performance of service, labor, or work
Call it what you want, that still doesnt make it any better for your position.
The average earnings from women with the same work experience, education, and hours of work per year is lower than men, there’s a gap. Wanna call it the “gender earning gap”, be my guest.

Canakun.8031:

It’s not a wage gap, it’s an earning gap, based on average earnings of all men vs all women. There are more men in the workforce, therefore men on average are earning more than women

It’s not a wage gap, it’s an earning gap, based on average earnings of all men vs all women. There are more men in the workforce, therefore men on average are earning more than women.
It’s not a wage gap, it’s an earning gap, based on average earnings of all men vs all women. There are more men in the workforce, therefore men on average are earning more than women..

False: Women comprised 47 percent of the total U.S. labor force a few years ago, now it’s closer to 50% I’ll look for the source in the meantime here’s the old source:
http://www.dol.gov/wb/factsheets/Qf-laborforce-10.htm
Women make less in any educational level http://www.census.gov/prod/2012pubs/p70-129.pdf
Having a 3% worker force advantage doesnt explain a 23% gap, try again.

I guess those “facts” came from your personal findings too right?

Raziel.4216:

Canakun.8031:

Raziel.4216:

Canakun.8031:

Again, from your source, first paragraph:

“That’s because even when they work full-time, year-round, they still make 77 percent, on average, of what similar men make”

This is literally just supporting my point. It is an issue of AVERAGES. Like I keep saying. All it tell us is that there are more men working than there are women.

What’s the wage gap to you? Women, on AVERAGE, make 77% of what men make doing the same jobs with the same skillset, how does that support your position? I think I’m getting trolled here.

Canakun.8031:

All your second link tells me is that the tech guy had the same misconception as you do. Did you even read the article? The entire thing was the guy making a statement. Read your own sources please I beg you.

You dont even understand what wage gap means, also, read your own sources they dont even support you (pointed out in previous post)

Canakun.8031:

Raziel.4216:

THANK YOU for saying that, you see, diversification is GOOD for business!
Oh thank you for shooting yourself in the foot with that, here:
http://www.theesa.com/facts/pdfs/ESA_EF_2014.pdf
Notice 48% of gamers are female?
And only 4% of last year’s top games targetted this rough half of the gamer population.
There’re more girls playing than you knew, but I guess you’d have to read actual research instead of your “personal findings”

I’m aware of this statistic. I’m also aware that they include IOS and board games, which collectively make up 77% of games being played. It isn’t really talking about the video game industry.

The research takes computer & videogames into account, btw that number was pulled from the “who plays computer and video games” section, that almost looks like “hey the numbers dont support my position soooo it doesnt count”

It’s not a wage gap, it’s an earning gap, based on average earnings of all men vs all women. There are more men in the workforce, therefore men on average are earning more than women.
It’s not a wage gap, it’s an earning gap, based on average earnings of all men vs all women. There are more men in the workforce, therefore men on average are earning more than women.
It’s not a wage gap, it’s an earning gap, based on average earnings of all men vs all women. There are more men in the workforce, therefore men on average are earning more than women.

Just stop for a minute. Take a breath. Actually READ the words I am writing. Think about them for a minute, it isn’t difficult. Just think. Maybe even glance at the articles I am linking. Doesn’t have to be long. But just clear your mind of your ideological drive, and just read. You’ll get there.

Really, after your own sources support my position, you ask me to read?

Wage: Payment for labor or services to a worker, especially remuneration on an hourly, daily, or weekly basis or by the piece.
Earning: To gain especially for the performance of service, labor, or work
Call it what you want, that still doesnt make it any better for your position.
The average earnings from women with the same work experience, education, and hours of work per year is lower than men, there’s a gap. Wanna call it the “gender earning gap”, be my guest.

It’s like you don’t even WANT to be wrong.

I’m going to lay this out as simply as I possibly can. After each part, I’m going to stop to make you you’re keeping up.

There are more men in the workforce then there are women. Ok?

There are also more men in higher paying fields. Ok?

Women in these fields actually get paid the same hourly wage, $$$$$$. Ok?

The average earnings of all men across all fields are X. Ok?

The average earnings of all women across all fields are Y. Ok?

Because there are less women in the workforce than men, and more men in higher paying fields, Y is therefore smaller than X. Ok?

This is because it averages out. Ok?

It is not because of women being paid a smaller hourly wage than men doing the exact same work and the exact same hours. Ok?

Shibbity-shong, you are wrong. Ok?

From your sources:
http://www.census.gov/prod/2012pubs/p70-129.pdf

DIFFERENCES BETWEEN MEN AND WOMEN
Over time, women and men have
concentrated in different fields of
training. In every panel between
1984 and 2009, a high proportion
of adults with an education degree
were women while a high proportion
of adults with an engineering
and computer science degree were
men (Figures 4a–4d). In every panel
between 1984 and 2009, women
held 75 percent or more of associate’s
and bachelor’s degrees in
education and 60 percent or more
of advanced degrees in education.
In contrast, women held 25 percent
or less of bachelor’s and advanced
degrees in engineering fields and
less than 35 percent of associate’s
and vocational certificates in engineering
during the same period.
The proportion of women in some
fields grew from 1984 to 2009,
with similar trends at the associate’s,
bachelor’s, and advanced
degree levels. For example, the
proportion of women with a degree
in business increased during this
period for those with an associate’s,
bachelor’s, and advanced degree.
At the vocational certificate level,
women held around 80 percent of
degrees in business at the beginning
and end of this period, reflecting
women’s concentration in clerical
occupations over time. Similarly,
women held around 90 percent of
vocational certificates in the natural
sciences in 1984 and 87 percent of
these certificates in 2009, reflecting
women’s continued concentration
in the field of nursing.11
In 2009, men continued to earn
more than women. Men’s overall
median monthly earnings were
$3,750 and women’s earnings were
$2,917 (Table. Women earned
less per month than men at every
degree level. For example, at the
advanced degree level, women’s
median monthly earnings were
$5,000 while men’s were $6,667.
Furthermore, women earned
less than men in most fields of
training, including business and
education. However, in the natural
sciences, men’s and women’s
median monthly earnings did not
significantly differ at the associate’s
and bachelor’s degree levels,
while women earned significantly
less than men at the advanced
degree level. Therefore, women
with degrees in a natural science
field have reduced the earnings gap
at the associate’s and bachelor’s
degree levels but still lag behind
men at the advanced degree level.
Women still earn considerably less

Engineering pays more than education. As there are more men in engineering than there are in education, men are on average earning more than women. Is this conversation really happening.

http://www.dol.gov/wb/factsheets/Qf-laborforce-10.htm

The median weekly earnings of women who were full-time wage and salary workers were $669, or 81 percent of men’s $824. When comparing the median weekly earnings of persons aged 16 to 24, young women earned 95 percent of what young men earned ($422 and $443, respectively).

Canakun.8031:

There are more men in the workforce then there are women. Ok?

3% more, as pointed above.
That explains a 23% gap?

Canakun.8031:

There are also more men in higher paying fields. Ok?

False as a mean to explain the gap, because:
(From thinkprogress, links that back this up in their site)
women make less than men in their first year after graduating, even when factors such as schools, grades, majors, and others are taken into account. That educational gap will follow them no matter how much more higher learning they invest in: at any educational level, a man with the same degree earns more, on average
So, the “men have higher jobs” card wont save your position

Canakun.8031:

Women in these fields actually get paid the same hourly wage, $$$$$$. Ok?

False
Women make less in every job http://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat39.pdf

Canakun.8031:

The average earnings of all men across all fields are X. Ok?

The average earnings of all women across all fields are Y. Ok?

Because there are less women in the workforce than men, and more men in higher paying fields, Y is therefore smaller than X. Ok?

This is because it averages out. Ok?

False
3 % less workers in Y dont account for a 23% gap between Y and X. Read your own wikipedia source.

Canakun.8031:

It is not because of women being paid a smaller hourly wage than men doing the exact same work and the exact same hours. Ok?

False
Link already provided in this post.

Try again.

Canakun.8031:

In 2009, men continued to earn
more than women. Men’s overall
median monthly earnings were
$3,750 and women’s earnings were
$2,917 (Table. Women earned
less per month than men at every
degree level. For example, at the
advanced degree level, women’s
median monthly earnings were
$5,000 while men’s were $6,667.
Furthermore, women earned
less than men in most fields of
training, including business and
education. However, in the natural
sciences, men’s and women’s
median monthly earnings did not
significantly differ at the associate’s
and bachelor’s degree levels,
while women earned significantly
less than men at the advanced
degree level. Therefore, women
with degrees in a natural science
field have reduced the earnings gap
at the associate’s and bachelor’s
degree levels but still lag behind
men at the advanced degree level.
Women still earn considerably less

Did you even read what you posted?
kitten dude, kitten

Raziel.4216:

Canakun.8031:

In 2009, men continued to earn
more than women. Men’s overall
median monthly earnings were
$3,750 and women’s earnings were
$2,917 (Table. Women earned
less per month than men at every
degree level. For example, at the
advanced degree level, women’s
median monthly earnings were
$5,000 while men’s were $6,667.
Furthermore, women earned
less than men in most fields of
training, including business and
education. However, in the natural
sciences, men’s and women’s
median monthly earnings did not
significantly differ at the associate’s
and bachelor’s degree levels,
while women earned significantly
less than men at the advanced
degree level. Therefore, women
with degrees in a natural science
field have reduced the earnings gap
at the associate’s and bachelor’s
degree levels but still lag behind
men at the advanced degree level.
Women still earn considerably less

Did you even read what you posted?
kitten dude, kitten

Did you?

Raziel.4216:

False
Women make less in every job http://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat39.pdf

Actually in this source women make more than men in a few fields.

Canakun.8031:

Raziel.4216:

False
Women make less in every job http://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat39.pdf

Actually in this source women make more than men in a few fields.

Indeed, also 0.01% of biologists dont support evolution.
But that doesnt stop us from saying that every biologist backs it up.
I’m off to bed now, if you reply again my answer wont come ’till morning. Have fun

(Warning, Spoilers ahead)

Master of peace was dead at the end of the last episode, and I must agree he was killed off, and disposed of. No one really cared. “Oh this really important guy that is the head of the zephyrites is dead. Hey, you and you, take care of his body will you, RIP master of the zephyrites.”

Other than that I haven’t really noticed any flaws in the story as much. Sometimes there’s more females than males.. who cares. Calling yourself an egalitarian is quite silly as well. I can’t honestly see a reason why there must be exactly 50/50 males and females in the story if that’s what you mean. I thought as an egalitarian it shouldn’t make a difference if theres 4 to one male/female or female/male ratio. It’s all the same to me. It’s just people.

I mean, this story just features more females than males at this time, but does that really matter? It’s just gender. Pointing out the difference between the number of female and male characters is just gonna put focus where there shouldnt be any. Just for the sake of gender equality alone, it shouldn’t matter if there’s more of one gender than the other, in my opinion. Next thing we know stories are going to be rated good or bad after some dumb number check solely based on the amount of gender representation.

On the other side I must admit, the valiant effort to make lots of the side characters like magnus and evon seem important, is hilarious. I mean, sure in the game world they are important, but storywise we don’t really get to deal with them all that much.

(Also, this is a game forum guys, not a place to discuss politics)

For the love of the six gods.. the eternal alchemy, and the gods the charr burned..

ITS A FRIKKIN’ GAME!!!!!!!

Now repeat after me:
It’s a game
It’s a game
it’s a game

let that sink in
no need for political corrections, no need for social equality, it’s a game
There’s characters in it that die and live, their gender has no effect on this.
There’s characters in it that love each other and their gender has no effect on this.
There’s characters that are absolutely evil, untrustworthy kittens and their gender has no effect on this.

Funky.4861:

… There is one issue i would love for you to address, when you have a slot for it. Time and time again we are subjected to pretty obvious misandry in LS episodes …

… deep breath intake … slowly breathing out … no comment.

Aedelric.1287:

… I would like to see another likable prominent male role, …

Rytlock Brimstone? More Man is not possible. =8-)

Oh gosh, guys, misandry does not exist. Feminists do not want to cut off your kittenes, trust me. And giving females the same rights and respect as males does not make you any less of a man.
And really, this game challenges nothing about the status-quo of male-domination. You really think someone like “I am naked all the time, drunk, and talk like an 8 year old” Kasmeer is a feminist role model? Or even shows females in a good light? Think again.

Looks like someone learned a new word xD

In all seriousness though it doesn’t apply to the LS, definitely can exist but you’re being over dramatic with a new word you’ve learned (which is good but proper use should be next thing to work on).

Ok so using the reference OP game here’s what misandry is:

Misandry can be manifested in numerous ways, including sexual discrimination, denigration of men, violence against men, and sexual objectification of men

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misandry

So lets continue the conversation from this. Don’t point out how many male and female characters there are because that not misogency or misandry. Its not, looking at the list, nowhere do we see anything about quantity. So if you’re on the misandry side (and thus burden of proof lies on you, given the nature of this thread), please point out the male characters who are being discriminated against because they are men, who are being denigrated because they are men, who suffer from violence because they are men, or who are sexually objectified. However if there are no such men, then I do strongly believe that this discussion has little foundation since by definition then there is no misandry. Alternatively, provide a different definition if you like, but still provide examples.

Ayakaru.6583:

For the love of the six gods.. the eternal alchemy, and the gods the charr burned..

ITS A FRIKKIN’ GAME!!!!!!!

Now repeat after me:
It’s a game
It’s a game
it’s a game

let that sink in
no need for political corrections, no need for social equality, it’s a game
There’s characters in it that die and live, their gender has no effect on this.
There’s characters in it that love each other and their gender has no effect on this.
There’s characters that are absolutely evil, untrustworthy kittens and their gender has no effect on this.

Social issues affect games. A few examples:
Sexualization in mass media
Lack of empowerment in pretty much any minority group, including women, LGBTQA, & POC.
“Token” characters to correct this that usually portray classic stereotypes and missconceptions.
All of this while the large majority -with this I mean 4 out of 5- focus on 1 group. The one that’s also privileged in pretty much anything but child custody.

Games are considered an art form (oficially since last year iirc), art is influenced by society, there’s no such thing as “this is a game, leave reality out of it” anymore.