So... Balthazar plot hole? (spoilers)

So... Balthazar plot hole? (spoilers)

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Posted by: maddoctor.2738

maddoctor.2738

I’m sorry if this has been discussed before.

In Salvation Pass, Matthias was sacrificing people on the bloodstone to feed their souls to Lazarus. In Stronghold of the Faithful, Xera was feeding Lazarus bloodstone directly to revive him. After Xera dies we see a Mursaat-shaped chamber empty, apparently Xera bought enough time for Lazarus to revive and then escape.

Another part of the White Mantle experiments with the Bloodstone and cause an explosion, Lazarus absorbs the magic and appears in front of Caudecus.

Up to this point the story makes sense, but then we learn that Caudecus replaced some of the aspects and that “Lazarus” was an impostor.

Then we learn that Lazarus was Balthazar… this is really far fetched, but it became worse when we saw the last episode. In order to summon Lazarus, we gathered the aspects, placed them in a ritual, performed a short ritual, and he appeared.

Since Xera and Matthias were feeding a re-formed Mursaat it means they already finished the ritual. This means that after they used Caudecus’s fake aspects, instead of Lazarus they got… Balthazar, that was already disguised when he was summoned and Xera’s fanatics didn’t notice his real identity.

Caudecus’s fake aspects summoned Balthazar? There is something missing here! Also, when we re-formed Lazarus he appeared directly and didn’t require sacrifices, nor bloodstone to be empowered, he seemed pretty “complete”. Xera didn’t know how Lazarus’s magic work? For their “god” they knew nothing about him and how his magic worked.

I hope some of the secret behind the appearance of Balthazar in front of Xera will be explained in the expansion as right now it seems like a giant plot hole.

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Posted by: Arden.7480

Arden.7480

So to summon the Gods we can gather some aspects?

I doubt Balthazar was summoned instead if he had one of the aspects. He rather even more complicated Xera’s plan.

We have a lot to learn and I am glad Balthazar didn’t say anything about his plans, what he was doing, why he is doing this.

I am glad the trailer showed some really good things and is not as misleading as LS3 ones.

“They dimmed my light” sounds like the other Gods did something bad to him because in the trailer he says he not only want to get the powers back but also he wants to be the only God, so it is really interesting.

He consumed the Bloodstone who might have a connection to the Gods, then he discuised himself as Lazarus to reveal that he is Balthazar in fact to make people like: if one god is bad so others must be as well, so it looks like he wanted to punish them in that way. Then he wanted to destroy Tyria, at least he didn’t care if Tyria’d be destroyed. He was ready to destroy the place that was created by him as well- another way to punish other Gods so the others could never return here, thankfully we stopped him so there is a hope. I wondet if we would not stop him the other Gods would appear in the volcano to punish him, I think yes. Because the spirit trees in Draconis Mons asked us to leave but when we said we want to stop Balthazar he wanted to give us their protection. It seems these creatures have a connection to Melandru.

Then he went to Orr, he made some damage to Orr activating his Temple in Straits of Devastation, also he’d putted Lazarus’ aspect in Abaddon’s reliquary.

About Aurene- I think he just wanted to gain our trust.

But one detail wonders me- there was no reaction of Mercenaries, 4 of them stood just near him and they said nothing. That was kinda weird.

Anyway I let Balthazar tell his story.

“The Elder Dragon is no more”

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Posted by: maddoctor.2738

maddoctor.2738

So to summon the Gods we can gather some aspects?

That’s what I was wondering and it sounds rather silly but that’s what happened, unless of course they didn’t tell us the whole story (which is more likely).

He consumed the Bloodstone who might have a connection to the Gods, then he discuised himself as Lazarus

You got it backwards. By the time the Bloodstone exploded, and then he consumed its magic, Balthazar was already awake and disguised as Lazarus. The White Mantle performed a ritual to destroy the bloodstone, to power him up, which means he was already up and running and the White Mantle had already finished the ritual to summon him, before the explosion of the Bloodstone.

Which is one of the parts that make no sense. The White Mantle used the fake aspects to revive something, then that something proved to be Balthazar. What happened in that summoning ritual? How come the White Mantle didn’t notice it wasn’t Lazarus? Did Balthazar already possess Lyssa’s mirror when he appeared after the ritual? Otherwise wouldn’t the White Mantle know it was Balthazar and not Lazarus? It’s a really hazy part of the story

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Posted by: Danikat.8537

Danikat.8537

So to summon the Gods we can gather some aspects?

That’s what I was wondering and it sounds rather silly but that’s what happened, unless of course they didn’t tell us the whole story (which is more likely).

He consumed the Bloodstone who might have a connection to the Gods, then he discuised himself as Lazarus

You got it backwards. By the time the Bloodstone exploded, and then he consumed its magic, Balthazar was already awake and disguised as Lazarus. The White Mantle performed a ritual to destroy the bloodstone, to power him up, which means he was already up and running and the White Mantle had already finished the ritual to summon him, before the explosion of the Bloodstone.

Which is one of the parts that make no sense. The White Mantle used the fake aspects to revive something, then that something proved to be Balthazar. What happened in that summoning ritual? How come the White Mantle didn’t notice it wasn’t Lazarus? Did Balthazar already possess Lyssa’s mirror when he appeared after the ritual? Otherwise wouldn’t the White Mantle know it was Balthazar and not Lazarus? It’s a really hazy part of the story

That’s my understanding. Basically the White Mantle got cheated. There’s two sides to how it happened however:

1) There was a schism within the White Mantle.

One group, lead by Xera, were religious zealots who wanted to focus on resurrecting Lazarus. They don’t seem sure how to accomplish this so they were trying a variety of methods – harnessing power from the bloodstone to ‘feed’ to Lazarus in various ways and collecting all the aspects for a resurrection ritual among them.

The 2nd group, lead by Caudecus was only interested in taking over Kryta. They wanted to turn the bloodstone into a weapon and/or a source of magical power. Caudecus didn’t want Lazarus resurrected because then he’d lose his authority as the head of the order and the focus would shift back to worshipping the Unseen Ones.

So Caudecus sabotaged the attempt to get all the aspects back together. What should have happened as a result of that was…nothing. It just wouldn’t work and Xera and her followers would look like fools, discrediting them.

2) Entirely separately Balthazar was looking for a way to obtain huge amounts of magic quickly and easily without being noticed.

So he returned to Tyria with the mirror which allowed him to disguise himself, found the White Mantle and when their ritual caused the bloodstone to explode he absorbed its power. While doing that he discovered they were trying to resurrect Lazarus and it hadn’t worked, so he used the mirror to make himself look like a Mursaat and took his place – gaining an army of followers to help him gather more magic.

Everyone had a plan which would have worked, but they were all sabotaged:

  • Xera’s group did find out how to resurrect Lazarus, but Caudecus stole one of the apsects (or rather had Justicar Bauer steal it) so it didn’t work.
  • Caudecus did find numerous ways to weaponize bloodstone but was then defeated.
  • Balthazar did absorb the bloodstone’s power, but then – tipped off by Caudecus’ notes – we discovered he’s not Lazarus and set up a ritual to reveal him.

So no – gathering the aspects did not summon Balthazar. He turned up for his own, entirely separate reasons ( currently unknown to us). As far as we know there isn’t a reliable way to summon the gods. Which makes sense, they’re gods, not servants – you can ask for their help, try to persuade them…but ultimately it’s up to them whether they answer and what form that answer takes.

Danielle Aurorel, Dear Dragon We Got Your Cookies [Nom], Desolation (EU).

“Life’s a journey, not a destination.”

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Posted by: maddoctor.2738

maddoctor.2738

So no – gathering the aspects did not summon Balthazar. He turned up for his own, entirely separate reasons ( currently unknown to us). As far as we know there isn’t a reliable way to summon the gods. Which makes sense, they’re gods, not servants – you can ask for their help, try to persuade them…but ultimately it’s up to them whether they answer and what form that answer takes.

They put him in a stasis chamber (Stronghold of the Faithful) to give him strength for crying out loud. They forced the Bloodstone to explode so he could absorb the magic energy from it!

Yes say that he appeared on his own, but wouldn’t Xera and the rest of the White Mantle notice it if that was the case? They didn’t notice what they were putting in the chamber to power up? And also, the White Mantle had the aspects, wouldn’t it be super weird for Lazarus to appear in front of them, before they used the aspects?

I’d love to see that scene, Balthazar appearing in front of the White Mantle disguised as Lazarus telling them: “Oh those aspects? You don’t need them to resurrect me because I’m totally here alive, so please do all you can to power me up and forget the aspects. Please?”

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

In Salvation Pass, Matthias was sacrificing people on the bloodstone to feed their souls to Lazarus.

This isn’t actually what’s happening. He’s sacrificing souls to empower bloodstones, which he would then embed in himself (see: Bloodstone Fen journals) hence his abomination form.

Since Xera and Matthias were feeding a re-formed Mursaat it means they already finished the ritual. This means that after they used Caudecus’s fake aspects, instead of Lazarus they got… Balthazar, that was already disguised when he was summoned and Xera’s fanatics didn’t notice his real identity.

And here you’re wrong. Xera was trying to revive Lazarus – she had the four real aspects and one fake one, and didn’t know why he wasn’t reviving so her solution was “feed the aspects magic, lots of magic”.

Her dialogue in the third raid makes it clear that she’s “in the process” but was supremely confident she’d succeed despite the invaders.

But that all amounted to nothing in the end.

Balthazar never appeared before Xera. He did appear before Justiciar Bauer, however, per his journal.

Xera didn’t know how Lazarus’s magic work? For their “god” they knew nothing about him and how his magic worked.

The mursaat weren’t exactly telling in their plans and magic. That’s why they could masquerade as gods. They had a level of mysteriousness to them.

They put him in a stasis chamber (Stronghold of the Faithful) to give him strength for crying out loud. They forced the Bloodstone to explode so he could absorb the magic energy from it!

False. They prepared a stasis chamber for him, they put the artifacts in that chamber (I’m actually now curious if we can spot the goblet, sword, book, container, and whatever-the-fifth-object-was in that stasis chamber).

There is no plot hole, you’re just misunderstanding three things:

  1. Matthias wasn’t feeding Lazarus. He was just empowering Bloodstone Shards with sacrifices, which then got used for multiple purposes (one of which being used to push magic into the artifacts).
  2. The ritual to revive Lazarus never worked. Xera never met “Lazarus” aka Balthazar. She was empowering the artifacts, not a living being, and was trying to revive Lazarus but we interrupted her (not that she would have succeeded without such).
  3. Balthazar took advantage of the raiders assaulting Stronghold of the Faithful and interrupting the resurrection of Lazarus. We do not know how he knew, but he was not there pretending to be Lazarus in front of Xera.

Bauer likely thought Xera had somehow managed to succeed, hence why he worked with disguised-Balthazar, despite having tricked Xera by replacing one of the aspect artifacts with a fake.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)

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Posted by: maddoctor.2738

maddoctor.2738

And here you’re wrong. Xera was trying to revive Lazarus – she had the four real aspects and one fake one, and didn’t know why he wasn’t reviving so her solution was “feed the aspects magic, lots of magic”.

That’s an interesting idea, feeding the aspects magikittenil it works. I never thought of it that way.

False. They prepared a stasis chamber for him, they put the artifacts in that chamber (I’m actually now curious if we can spot the goblet, sword, book, container, and whatever-the-fifth-object-was in that stasis chamber).

Now I’m curious and next time I beat Xera I’ll go look for the aspects around the chamber!

Balthazar took advantage of the raiders assaulting Stronghold of the Faithful and interrupting the resurrection of Lazarus. We do not know how he knew, but he was not there pretending to be Lazarus in front of Xera.

Well he somehow knew about Taimi’s machine too. Maybe we’ll get some info on why he knows so many things in Path of Fire

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Posted by: Larathia.5284

Larathia.5284

What we know from the last episode of LS3 is that Balthazar plundered the reliquaries. The other gods didn’t give him anything – he took their relics.

We know what he did with the mirror of Lyssa.

My guess would be that’s a) not at all the ONLY relic he stole, and b) we’re going to find out what those other relics are in quite probably the most unpleasant possible ways. But it doesn’t seem improbable to guess that at least one of them lets him learn the secrets of others. I mean…Abbadon, (Or would it now be Kormir?)

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Posted by: FrizzFreston.5290

FrizzFreston.5290

Since the gods knew about the bloodstones, why wouldn’t Balthazar go to a Bloodstone in the first place. It’s just a matter of reconnaissance and forming a plan to get the magic one way or another. Which is probably why he needed to be Lazarus in the first place. To gain access to the bloodstone. Which he does with Justicar Bauer and Grand Savant Valis The Learned. (With as much secrecy and little people as possible) But with white mantle, seeing some sort of Lazarus back they probably would be blinded by devotion to see it’s not him anyway. Nothing better than the blind faith a few zealots that haven’t seen their “god” in hundreds of years.

“Oh I am your God, but I am weakened, we need to do this ritual so I can become more powerful and crush all your enemies.”

Balthazar then just kept on his disguise, even though it wasn’t needed. It gave him access to many followers to do his bidding, many white mantle and a network of informants. He was gathering an army, and as Lazarus and under the pretense to battle the dragons why not keep that disguise. Being the God Balthazar would probably come with alot of more annoying questions, “Why did you return” “Why now?” plus as many forum goers already prove themselves “Why were you Lazarus in the first place?” If he as Lazarus already had that much mistrust, then why complicate things by dropping a disguise. Hiding his true intentions (Gaining more power) with good intentions (Defeating dragons) seems like a great idea.

At least, that’s what I can come up with as to an explanation.

“It isn’t working!” CL4P-TP
Ingame Name: Guardian Erik

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Posted by: Manasa Devi.7958

Manasa Devi.7958

Why was there a “Lazarus Resurrection Room” in Abaddon’s reliquary?

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Posted by: JTGuevara.9018

JTGuevara.9018

Whhh…..?

Now, I’m even more confused…..

This whole Balth/Lazarus plot was just poorly handled.

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Posted by: FrizzFreston.5290

FrizzFreston.5290

Why was there a “Lazarus Resurrection Room” in Abaddon’s reliquary?

Who says that Lazarus’ split into aspects thing was not simply Abbadon magic. :p

Or it could also be used for other rituals. Considering the many types of weapons we can use as a way to focus magic, I can see how the White mantle had a totally different way of resurrecting than Abbadon’s focus “the magic of these items into one spot” room.

“It isn’t working!” CL4P-TP
Ingame Name: Guardian Erik

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

What we know from the last episode of LS3 is that Balthazar plundered the reliquaries. The other gods didn’t give him anything – he took their relics.

We know what he did with the mirror of Lyssa.

My guess would be that’s a) not at all the ONLY relic he stole, and b) we’re going to find out what those other relics are in quite probably the most unpleasant possible ways. But it doesn’t seem improbable to guess that at least one of them lets him learn the secrets of others. I mean…Abbadon, (Or would it now be Kormir?)

Eh, not really.

Yes, he did go to the reliquaries, but the ghosts only mention him going to Abaddon’s and his own.

Furthermore, he brought his mercenaries with him, which means he went there post-Episode 1 (probably post Episode 2). He already had the Lazarus disguise, he had the mirror. He did not get the mirror from Lyssa’s Reliquary – we don’t even have reason to believe he went to Lyssa’s reliquary (or Dwayna’s, or Grenth’s, and we know he didn’t go to Melandru’s since he simply “passed by” Melandru’s according to Reza and Dagonet).

Since the gods knew about the bloodstones, why wouldn’t Balthazar go to a Bloodstone in the first place. It’s just a matter of reconnaissance and forming a plan to get the magic one way or another.

Because the locations of the Bloodstones changed centuries after Balthazar left the world in the Exodus.

So first he’d have to investigate where the Bloodstones are, of which three locations are known (to players, the other two may or may not be known by Tyrians). Then he’d have to learn about that “strange cult” that’s at one of the Bloodstones, deciding to go after that particular one instead of the Ring of Fire Bloodstone which is still at the location where the gods left all five bloodstones.

Then he’d need to know who mursaat were and what they looked like – they were long gone from the world when the Six arrived, by all indication, and there was likely never any interaction between the two groups.

Balthazar then just kept on his disguise, even though it wasn’t needed. It gave him access to many followers to do his bidding, many white mantle and a network of informants. He was gathering an army, and as Lazarus and under the pretense to battle the dragons why not keep that disguise. Being the God Balthazar would probably come with alot of more annoying questions, “Why did you return” “Why now?” plus as many forum goers already prove themselves “Why were you Lazarus in the first place?” If he as Lazarus already had that much mistrust, then why complicate things by dropping a disguise. Hiding his true intentions (Gaining more power) with good intentions (Defeating dragons) seems like a great idea.

That distrust he got from his disguise, however, could have been greatly lessened if he willingly showed the Pact Commander his true form during Dragon Vigil, where there were only the Pact Commander, Marjory, Caithe, Ruka and the Luminate present. No one would have learned Lazarus = Balthazar outside of those five. And the PC would never have antagonized (yes, the PC is the one who started it all) Balthazar and there might not be a conflict because we pushed Balthazar into creating the Forged because we were trying to stop him. Instead we could have figured out a way to meet both goals – empowering Balthazar and not destroying the world in the process – instead the PC went “we know you’re lying, so I’m gonna tear that mask off of you!”

Furthermore, all those questions are already asked and many of Balthazar’s followers simply don’t care. They’re just glad he’s returned and are being a willing army to do his bidding, financing his army, without any qualms. So his need of disguise was never really there after stealing the White Mantle’s treasury.

Why was there a “Lazarus Resurrection Room” in Abaddon’s reliquary?

It wasn’t a “Lazarus Resurrection Room”. Balthazar just chose that room to place the aspect artifact, expecting no one to think of looking in a dead god’s secret vault for a modern artifact.

The pentagram being present is unexplained, but honestly, has no need to be related to Lazarus’ five aspects in lore. It could be representing the five other gods besides Abaddon or something for all we know.

After all, Lazarus’ aspects didn’t need to be placed on five pedestals that were equidistant from the adjacent artifacts. They just needed to “be nearby each other” according to Livia.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)

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Posted by: FrizzFreston.5290

FrizzFreston.5290

Since the gods knew about the bloodstones, why wouldn’t Balthazar go to a Bloodstone in the first place. It’s just a matter of reconnaissance and forming a plan to get the magic one way or another.

Because the locations of the Bloodstones changed centuries after Balthazar left the world in the Exodus.

So first he’d have to investigate where the Bloodstones are, of which three locations are known (to players, the other two may or may not be known by Tyrians). Then he’d have to learn about that “strange cult” that’s at one of the Bloodstones, deciding to go after that particular one instead of the Ring of Fire Bloodstone which is still at the location where the gods left all five bloodstones.

Then he’d need to know who mursaat were and what they looked like – they were long gone from the world when the Six arrived, by all indication, and there was likely never any interaction between the two groups.

There was interaction between the Gods and the humans in Prophecies, Factions and Nightfall. The location of the bloodstone and the way things transpired in Tyria may or may not have concerned them anymore, but there’s definitely ways for them to have known where some of the bloodstones were. So even the White Mantle and the Mursaat would be known to them.

Not caring about what has happened or will happen is not the same as not knowing. To them it might have been very interesting to know what would happen after they tossed the bloodstone into the volcano. They have always observed. I think it would be very strange if he viewed the mursaat and white mantle as you described.

Balthazar then just kept on his disguise, even though it wasn’t needed. It gave him access to many followers to do his bidding, many white mantle and a network of informants. He was gathering an army, and as Lazarus and under the pretense to battle the dragons why not keep that disguise. Being the God Balthazar would probably come with alot of more annoying questions, “Why did you return” “Why now?” plus as many forum goers already prove themselves “Why were you Lazarus in the first place?” If he as Lazarus already had that much mistrust, then why complicate things by dropping a disguise. Hiding his true intentions (Gaining more power) with good intentions (Defeating dragons) seems like a great idea.

That distrust he got from his disguise, however, could have been greatly lessened if he willingly showed the Pact Commander his true form during Dragon Vigil, where there were only the Pact Commander, Marjory, Caithe, Ruka and the Luminate present. No one would have learned Lazarus = Balthazar outside of those five. And the PC would never have antagonized (yes, the PC is the one who started it all) Balthazar and there might not be a conflict because we pushed Balthazar into creating the Forged because we were trying to stop him. Instead we could have figured out a way to meet both goals – empowering Balthazar and not destroying the world in the process – instead the PC went “we know you’re lying, so I’m gonna tear that mask off of you!”

Furthermore, all those questions are already asked and many of Balthazar’s followers simply don’t care. They’re just glad he’s returned and are being a willing army to do his bidding, financing his army, without any qualms. So his need of disguise was never really there after stealing the White Mantle’s treasury.

Well, that’s just from our perspective. I was trying to see it from Balthazar’s perspective. He doesn’t care about our goals, or our world. There’s no need to drop the disguise if it gets him what he wants upto that point. Even when we dropped his disguise he could’ve reacted reasonable, if he was actually reasonable.

He did lock the asura gate and came with entourage, basically ready for battle to get to the machine one way or another. No one was able to leave, so I doubt his intentions were to talk about it, regardless of what we did there.


Other than that I wonder if taking in all that dragon magic might not simply mean that the forged are his form of corrupted minions. It seemed very similar in the first instance in PoF

“It isn’t working!” CL4P-TP
Ingame Name: Guardian Erik

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Posted by: Manasa Devi.7958

Manasa Devi.7958

Why was there a “Lazarus Resurrection Room” in Abaddon’s reliquary?

It wasn’t a “Lazarus Resurrection Room”. Balthazar just chose that room to place the aspect artifact, expecting no one to think of looking in a dead god’s secret vault for a modern artifact.

The pentagram being present is unexplained, but honestly, has no need to be related to Lazarus’ five aspects in lore. It could be representing the five other gods besides Abaddon or something for all we know.

After all, Lazarus’ aspects didn’t need to be placed on five pedestals that were equidistant from the adjacent artifacts. They just needed to “be nearby each other” according to Livia.

They did need to be placed on the 5 pedestals, regardless of what Livia stated. They were pretty much nearby each other after Livia dumped 4 of them on the floor, and nothing happened.

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

There was interaction between the Gods and the humans in Prophecies, Factions and Nightfall.

No. there was interaction between humans and the gods’ avatars. there is a distinct difference. Even when beseeching the gods in Nightfall before confronting Abaddon, it was only avatars that showed.

And there’s no reason to believe that “the way things transpired” had ever concerned them beyond Abaddon’s own actions, let alone that they were told by their avatars or their avatars were told.

After all, at the time, two of the gods (including Balthazar) were busy with Menzies and Dhuum.

Besides that, if he did know about the mursaat and White Mantle long before arriving, he would know that disguising as Lazarus long term would bite him in the kitten So why did he not simply drop the disguise when there was literally zero risk of those he wanted to fool finding out?

Hell, we don’t even know why he bothered with the Lazarus disguise rather than just show up as himself in the middle of Divinity’s Rest – he doesn’t need to be supremely powerful to pull off a fancy display and have a booming voice (if Jennah can do that, so should weakened Balthazar be capable).

Well, that’s just from our perspective. I was trying to see it from Balthazar’s perspective. He doesn’t care about our goals, or our world. There’s no need to drop the disguise if it gets him what he wants upto that point. Even when we dropped his disguise he could’ve reacted reasonable, if he was actually reasonable.

He did lock the asura gate and came with entourage, basically ready for battle to get to the machine one way or another. No one was able to leave, so I doubt his intentions were to talk about it, regardless of what we did there.


Other than that I wonder if taking in all that dragon magic might not simply mean that the forged are his form of corrupted minions. It seemed very similar in the first instance in PoF

He might not care about our goals, but even in PoF he tries to recruit the Pact Commander to his cause. He wants us as an ally, even after we instigated a fight with him and ruined his initial plans.

He came ready for battle, but that doesn’t mean he came with the intent to fight. As shown in the PoF demo, he even now offers alliance just as he did when he first talked to the Pact Commander. He likely came ready for battle because 1) we were instantly hostile to him during Dragon Vigil (which is partially his own fault for keeping the disguise), 2) the Pact Commander left him out of the loop while wanting to know everything he did, a bit unfair for an alliance. The small army and the asura gate override was likely just precautionary measures rather than a declaration of war.

The Forged are “living armor” – they seem to be the same as Shiro’Ken from Factions based on dialogue. Those killed are used to make new Forged, which are metal beings, and they are aware but unable to control their actions just like the Shiro’Ken. One of the many reasons why Balthazar is by all appearances so far just a rehash of Abaddon’s plot.

Just change “kill Elder Dragons to regain power” with “break out of prison to regain power” and then “war and fire” with “knowledge and water” and you pretty much have a remake.

They did need to be placed on the 5 pedestals, regardless of what Livia stated. They were pretty much nearby each other after Livia dumped 4 of them on the floor, and nothing happened.

You’re mistaking mechanics for lore.

Having players put them on pedestals had served two purposes:

First, giving players time to adjust their builds if they needed or wanted, and allowing them to act as the trigger for the fight rather than the fight triggering for its own reason. This is pretty 101 in game design, especially for RPGs – unless the purpose of the fight is to act as an unexpected ambush, you want to give your players a chance to prep for it.

Second, it acts as a stalling device, to let the dialogue roll out. No matter how fast a player is, they still take time to move all four aspects to a location.

I wouldn’t be surprised if there was also a factor of “rule of cool” playing in, that the pentagram was there because it looked better than a barren room.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)

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Posted by: Manasa Devi.7958

Manasa Devi.7958

They did need to be placed on the 5 pedestals, regardless of what Livia stated. They were pretty much nearby each other after Livia dumped 4 of them on the floor, and nothing happened.

You’re mistaking mechanics for lore.

Having players put them on pedestals had served two purposes:

First, giving players time to adjust their builds if they needed or wanted, and allowing them to act as the trigger for the fight rather than the fight triggering for its own reason. This is pretty 101 in game design, especially for RPGs – unless the purpose of the fight is to act as an unexpected ambush, you want to give your players a chance to prep for it.

Second, it acts as a stalling device, to let the dialogue roll out. No matter how fast a player is, they still take time to move all four aspects to a location.

I wouldn’t be surprised if there was also a factor of “rule of cool” playing in, that the pentagram was there because it looked better than a barren room.

I’m not mistaking anything for anything. Mechanics trump lore every time, because mechanics are what we see with our own eyes. I believe what I see before I pay attention to the words of a duplicitous NPC. There’s senseless rubbish going on and no amount of excuses will make that right. Surely the fight could’ve been triggered through dialogue with Kerida, if you want to argue mechanics.

Dialogue like this: “Let’s spread the aspects out so we can watch them. Would you mind?” is absolutely nonsensical. The best way to watch them would be to toss them on a single pile, not putting them meters apart.

Also, why did Balthazar put the one aspect on a pedestal?

What I believe is going on is that the story went through dramatic changes after the art assets were already finished and they had to make do.

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Posted by: FrizzFreston.5290

FrizzFreston.5290

No. there was interaction between humans and the gods’ avatars. there is a distinct difference. Even when beseeching the gods in Nightfall before confronting Abaddon, it was only avatars that showed.

And there’s no reason to believe that “the way things transpired” had ever concerned them beyond Abaddon’s own actions, let alone that they were told by their avatars or their avatars were told.

I just read up on the avatars on the original Guild wars wiki. While this may or may not be correct, it seemed to me the avatars are more akin to physical projections of the gods, rather than their own entities.
https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Avatar

Also, here it states, again without any reference that the gods do watch over the world, although not directly intervene:
https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Gods_of_Tyria

That’s why I said interaction.

But if you’re correct and the the avatars are their own entities, there’s indeed no proof that the avatars told any of it. Though just as much as there’s no proof that they didn’t. At the very least you could say that there is the possibility that they communicated about the things transpiring in Tyria.

Especially why even have the avatars to communicate with us after the exodus if there’s zero interest at all in the world after they left it. That makes no sense to me.

I can agree with you that the Avatars do speak alot as if they’re their own entities though. Hell, please feel free to point me in the right direction for the right information if the wiki isn’t correct.

Besides that, if he did know about the mursaat and White Mantle long before arriving, he would know that disguising as Lazarus long term would bite him in the kitten So why did he not simply drop the disguise when there was literally zero risk of those he wanted to fool finding out?

Hell, we don’t even know why he bothered with the Lazarus disguise rather than just show up as himself in the middle of Divinity’s Rest – he doesn’t need to be supremely powerful to pull off a fancy display and have a booming voice (if Jennah can do that, so should weakened Balthazar be capable).

Seems to me he doesn’t care about gathering a large following, and just cares the easiest least complicated way of regaining power. Why deal with all the extra trouble of revealing yourself to all humans to then get debated about how real you are extra questions about the other gods etc. That doesn’t seem to be in his interest at all. I bet to him it’s more akin to finding his power supplies in the back of is basement, where he ignores every other tool and goes straight to it. Bloodstone Fen is the most accessible one, and has a crew there ready. I wouldn’t put it beyond him he initially posed as white mantle as well.

Learning about the dragons is way more likely to have come late, because none of that seemed to be happening during the time the gods were here, and left again. Not knowing anything about that, he’d have to come to us. Then again, it could be possible he even knew about the Elder Dragons.

He might not care about our goals, but even in PoF he tries to recruit the Pact Commander to his cause. He wants us as an ally, even after we instigated a fight with him and ruined his initial plans.

He came ready for battle, but that doesn’t mean he came with the intent to fight. As shown in the PoF demo, he even now offers alliance just as he did when he first talked to the Pact Commander. He likely came ready for battle because 1) we were instantly hostile to him during Dragon Vigil (which is partially his own fault for keeping the disguise), 2) the Pact Commander left him out of the loop while wanting to know everything he did, a bit unfair for an alliance. The small army and the asura gate override was likely just precautionary measures rather than a declaration of war.

The Forged are “living armor” – they seem to be the same as Shiro’Ken from Factions based on dialogue. Those killed are used to make new Forged, which are metal beings, and they are aware but unable to control their actions just like the Shiro’Ken. One of the many reasons why Balthazar is by all appearances so far just a rehash of Abaddon’s plot.

Just change “kill Elder Dragons to regain power” with “break out of prison to regain power” and then “war and fire” with “knowledge and water” and you pretty much have a remake.

I thought he just tries to recruit us because we have alot of power and knowledge to deal with this dragon business. Not because he actually cares about us. We’d just be another tool for his goal. Not so he would have another “ally” and “Let’s be friends.” at all. But that may just have been me.

The forged could indeed be akin to the Shiro’Ken, But I was thinking more of the Son’s of Svanir. Who also are not entirely in control of their actions. He did just absorb a great deal of Jormag’s and Primordus’ power. It might not be related at all ofcourse, especially as Menzies has something similar his Shadow Army.

“It isn’t working!” CL4P-TP
Ingame Name: Guardian Erik

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

I’m not mistaking anything for anything. Mechanics trump lore every time, because mechanics are what we see with our own eyes.

Most definitely no. Otherwise you have dozens of contradictions throughout games. Because suddenly no one was capable of jumping 250 years ago. And events across the world repeat again, and again, and again, and again.

Have I ever told you the time I killed Drakin Cinderspire? I did. About five hundred times.

Except no such thing as resurrection exists in the world anymore.

Surely the fight could’ve been triggered through dialogue with Kerida, if you want to argue mechanics.

And they could have had Livia place the objects herself, but then there’s the rule of cool that exists – they wanted to put a design in the room. So they did. Simple as that.

And I was told that by a dev. I asked Linsey Murdock a few questions on release day, one of which was the pentagram. She said “there is no lore explanation” for it being there. They just wanted to put it there.

As unfortunate as it is that there was no lore for the design, that’s what it is. Besides, it would be completely nonsensical for that pentagram to be directly tied to the “Lazarus Resurrection Ritual”. And besides all of that, here’s a question for you:

If the aspects required a pentagram design for revival, why is there no such design in the Temple of Awakening where the White Mantle were planning on reviving Lazarus?

Also, why did Balthazar put the one aspect on a pedestal?

Because the pedestal was there?

If you’re taking a place for safe keeping, are you doing to put it on an empty spot that it waist high, or are you just going to toss in on the ground? If you have to pick it up later, it’s easier to pick it up from a waist high height rather than off the floor.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

I just read up on the avatars on the original Guild wars wiki. While this may or may not be correct, it seemed to me the avatars are more akin to physical projections of the gods, rather than their own entities.
-snip-
But if you’re correct and the the avatars are their own entities, there’s indeed no proof that the avatars told any of it. Though just as much as there’s no proof that they didn’t. -snip-

100% definitely not. We meet the – or rather, a – avatar of Grenth, also one of the Seven Reapers. The Seven Reapers were seven mortal individuals who helped Grenth overthrow Dhuum, and were in turn elevated and acted as his avatars since.

Especially why even have the avatars to communicate with us after the exodus if there’s zero interest at all in the world after they left it. That makes no sense to me.

We were told in various interviews they kept communication until Nightfall because they were not sure that humans could stand on their own. It was less “what’s going on in Tyria?” and more parents telling their children after said kids move out to live on their own “if you need anything, just call”.

Further, we were told that their primary interest beyond that was simply Abaddon. They knew he’d return eventually, and that he would need to be dealt with. With his death, they knew humans could stand on their own, and had no more ties to connect them to Tyria.

They might have been interested in events like the Cataclysm, Searing, Jade Wind, etc. all of which directly or indirectly deal with Abaddon, but less so about the White Mantle or their “Unseen Gods” or what such ‘gods’ look like. I’d imagine if the avatars heard of the Unseen Ones, the Five would have just facepalmed and not inquired further. Granted that’s a bit speculative, but it is going off of what we know.

Whatever knowledge Balthazar had of the White Mantle and mursaat likely came from research after returning – and how he got such is questionable. Even if he learned a good deal of the events happening from his avatars, the gods’ avatars all ceased to show up in Tyria shortly after Nightfall (the last canonical appearance known before GW2 was at Wintersday with the avatars of Grenth and Dwayna).

Seems to me he doesn’t care about gathering a large following, and just cares the easiest least complicated way of regaining power. Why deal with all the extra trouble of revealing yourself to all humans to then get debated about how real you are extra questions about the other gods etc. That doesn’t seem to be in his interest at all. I bet to him it’s more akin to finding his power supplies in the back of is basement, where he ignores every other tool and goes straight to it. Bloodstone Fen is the most accessible one, and has a crew there ready. I wouldn’t put it beyond him he initially posed as white mantle as well.

Learning about the dragons is way more likely to have come late, because none of that seemed to be happening during the time the gods were here, and left again. Not knowing anything about that, he’d have to come to us. Then again, it could be possible he even knew about the Elder Dragons.

On “dealing with questions” bit – he doesn’t even bother with the questions now, by all indication, so why would he have then? He also clearly wants some sort of mortal army, else he wouldn’t have hired mercenaries.

As to “initially posed as White Mantle as well” – that just adds onto the questions really. How did he do such? The White Mantle were a secret organization who by all appearances died out when the avatars/gods ceased contact. By all rights, he shouldn’t know they existed unless he did indeed have some omniscience of some sort (which by all indication, he and the other gods don’t, except arguably Kormir/Abaddon). If he didn’t know the modern state of the dragons, how could he know the modern state of the White Mantle and the experiments on the Bloodstone? If he didn’t know, why go after the most likely contested Bloodstone rather than the one in the Ring of Fire (which happens to be where he left all five Bloodstones)?

I thought he just tries to recruit us because we have alot of power and knowledge to deal with this dragon business. Not because he actually cares about us. We’d just be another tool for his goal. Not so he would have another “ally” and “Let’s be friends.” at all. But that may just have been me.

The forged could indeed be akin to the Shiro’Ken, But I was thinking more of the Son’s of Svanir. Who also are not entirely in control of their actions. He did just absorb a great deal of Jormag’s and Primordus’ power. It might not be related at all ofcourse, especially as Menzies has something similar his Shadow Army.

I’m not saying he’s wanting us to be friends, per se. But it’s clear he doesn’t want us as an enemy if he can help it. And if that would mean finding a way to gain power without destroying Tyria, then doing such would be worth having one powerful ally more and one powerful enemy less.

The Sons of Svanir are in control of their actions. They are not corrupted, unlike dragon minions, and still retain their free will until they do become corrupted. We at various points in events see various “repentant” Sons of Svanir who leave. Though one does mention hearing Jormag still and needing to resist Jormag’s power (the most notable one, at that).

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

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Posted by: Manasa Devi.7958

Manasa Devi.7958

I’m not mistaking anything for anything. Mechanics trump lore every time, because mechanics are what we see with our own eyes.

Most definitely no. Otherwise you have dozens of contradictions throughout games. Because suddenly no one was capable of jumping 250 years ago. And events across the world repeat again, and again, and again, and again.

Have I ever told you the time I killed Drakin Cinderspire? I did. About five hundred times.

Except no such thing as resurrection exists in the world anymore.

Surely the fight could’ve been triggered through dialogue with Kerida, if you want to argue mechanics.

And they could have had Livia place the objects herself, but then there’s the rule of cool that exists – they wanted to put a design in the room. So they did. Simple as that.

And I was told that by a dev. I asked Linsey Murdock a few questions on release day, one of which was the pentagram. She said “there is no lore explanation” for it being there. They just wanted to put it there.

As unfortunate as it is that there was no lore for the design, that’s what it is. Besides, it would be completely nonsensical for that pentagram to be directly tied to the “Lazarus Resurrection Ritual”. And besides all of that, here’s a question for you:

If the aspects required a pentagram design for revival, why is there no such design in the Temple of Awakening where the White Mantle were planning on reviving Lazarus?

Also, why did Balthazar put the one aspect on a pedestal?

Because the pedestal was there?

If you’re taking a place for safe keeping, are you doing to put it on an empty spot that it waist high, or are you just going to toss in on the ground? If you have to pick it up later, it’s easier to pick it up from a waist high height rather than off the floor.

Well, I guess you’re willing to swallow excuses for a ramshackle story. I’m not.

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Posted by: FrizzFreston.5290

FrizzFreston.5290

100% definitely not. We meet the – or rather, a – avatar of Grenth, also one of the Seven Reapers. The Seven Reapers were seven mortal individuals who helped Grenth overthrow Dhuum, and were in turn elevated and acted as his avatars since.

Kormir however, communicates directly through her Avatar, and only later a Seer of Truth. Which to me tells me that the gods did have alot of indirect ways of gaining knowledge about the current state of things. But yeah, most other Avatars seem to be more someone in place to acts as a messenger I guess. I blame the wiki for being rather confusing then.

We were told in various interviews they kept communication until Nightfall because they were not sure that humans could stand on their own. It was less “what’s going on in Tyria?” and more parents telling their children after said kids move out to live on their own “if you need anything, just call”.

If you want to describe the relation like that, then it’s way more likely that they did know. Especially as the Gods themselves made (or at least dumped) the bloodstones in order to limit the humans in their magic. It’s still lying around in Tyria, so having their eyes on it wouldn’t be all that weird. I mean this discussion we’re having sparked of you disagreeing that Balthazar couldn’t possibly know where the bloodstone is. Unless ofcourse, for all we know he has a way to directly track them.

Further, we were told that their primary interest beyond that was simply Abaddon. They knew he’d return eventually, and that he would need to be dealt with. With his death, they knew humans could stand on their own, and had no more ties to connect them to Tyria.

They might have been interested in events like the Cataclysm, Searing, Jade Wind, etc. all of which directly or indirectly deal with Abaddon, but less so about the White Mantle or their “Unseen Gods” or what such ‘gods’ look like. I’d imagine if the avatars heard of the Unseen Ones, the Five would have just facepalmed and not inquired further. Granted that’s a bit speculative, but it is going off of what we know.

Whatever knowledge Balthazar had of the White Mantle and mursaat likely came from research after returning – and how he got such is questionable. Even if he learned a good deal of the events happening from his avatars, the gods’ avatars all ceased to show up in Tyria shortly after Nightfall (the last canonical appearance known before GW2 was at Wintersday with the avatars of Grenth and Dwayna).

I’m not questioning that they probably didn’t have deep knowledge of the mursaat and the white mantle. For Balthazar it’s only important to know where the bloodstone is. He most definitely must have heard about the white mantle, and the mursaat, If the Flameseeker Prophecies, (with the lich, Vizier Kihlbron, Mister Arah himself, also tied to Abaddon) are of any concern to them. Not to mention all the conflicts of the humans at some point must be of some minor interest of the “God of War”.

On “dealing with questions” bit – he doesn’t even bother with the questions now, by all indication, so why would he have then? He also clearly wants some sort of mortal army, else he wouldn’t have hired mercenaries.

Hmm, you make a good point there, though his latest actions also seem to indicate he doesn’t really care about having a “mortal” army as much as just an army in general (possibly anymore).

As to “initially posed as White Mantle as well” – that just adds onto the questions really. How did he do such? The White Mantle were a secret organization who by all appearances died out when the avatars/gods ceased contact. By all rights, he shouldn’t know they existed unless he did indeed have some omniscience of some sort (which by all indication, he and the other gods don’t, except arguably Kormir/Abaddon). If he didn’t know the modern state of the dragons, how could he know the modern state of the White Mantle and the experiments on the Bloodstone? If he didn’t know, why go after the most likely contested Bloodstone rather than the one in the Ring of Fire (which happens to be where he left all five Bloodstones)?

If he has a mirror that can make him appear as a mursaat. Then a low ranking White mantle or even a working slave doesn’t sound that complicated. At least that’s what I was thinking. While not knowing the intricate details of things going on, he could easily observe what is happening with the bloodstone now. And thus form a plan on the spot, by impersonating a white mantle recruit or what not, to gain closer access to it.

The bloodstone in the ring of fire islands might not even be there anymore since after we killed the Lich on it the volcano erupted again, most likely making it either very inaccessible to get to, or some place else entirely. (Unless I missed something)

I’m not saying he’s wanting us to be friends, per se. But it’s clear he doesn’t want us as an enemy if he can help it. And if that would mean finding a way to gain power without destroying Tyria, then doing such would be worth having one powerful ally more and one powerful enemy less.

To me it didn’t seem like he has much interest in Politics and intricate plans. and more, Either you’re with me or you’re against me.

“It isn’t working!” CL4P-TP
Ingame Name: Guardian Erik

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

Well, I guess you’re willing to swallow excuses for a ramshackle story. I’m not.

Not “swallowing” anything.

If you cannot accept that something is done for rule of cool and not for some hidden lore purposes, and accept such “hidden lore purposes” (that do not exist) as fact, that’s simply not canon. That’s fanon.

That design isn’t a “Lazarus Resurrection Chamber”, there is no such thing. If you cannot accept that, then you’re the one not willing to accept it is a – as you put it – ‘ramshackle story.’

Kormir however, communicates directly through her Avatar, and only later a Seer of Truth. Which to me tells me that the gods did have alot of indirect ways of gaining knowledge about the current state of things. But yeah, most other Avatars seem to be more someone in place to acts as a messenger I guess. I blame the wiki for being rather confusing then.

The Seer of Truth never speaks as Kormir. The Avatar of Kormir is a bit odd, in that it looks just like Kormir so that probably is an avatar in the meaning of a physical manifestation, rather than the meaning of a speaker for a higher being like the others. Which would make sense as it appears before Kormir would have the chance to employ others to work for her.

I mean this discussion we’re having sparked of you disagreeing that Balthazar couldn’t possibly know where the bloodstone is. Unless ofcourse, for all we know he has a way to directly track them.

More accurately, it’s because we have no reason to believe he did know. Gods are not omnipotent nor omniscient, and their avatars were not all over the place. When they did show up, it was in limited situations, when called upon by mortals, and always at the gods’ statues. When they did show up, the avatars never asked “so, what’s going on in the world?”

The one time we see avatars show up outside of this is when they’re bringing souls to the Mists, or during Wintersday.

Given this, there’s no reason to believe that the avatars did know, or cared to know, what was going on in the world. Their knowledge may have been limited to prayers asking for help in x topic, which would naturally include world changing events like the Searing, but wouldn’t involve specifics like where a bloodstone landed more than likely.

The posssibility is there, but we have no firm reason to believe such.

I’m not questioning that they probably didn’t have deep knowledge of the mursaat and the white mantle. For Balthazar it’s only important to know where the bloodstone is. He most definitely must have heard about the white mantle, and the mursaat, If the Flameseeker Prophecies, (with the lich, Vizier Kihlbron, Mister Arah himself, also tied to Abaddon) are of any concern to them. Not to mention all the conflicts of the humans at some point must be of some minor interest of the “God of War”.

It’s more than that. He needed to know what mursaat looked like so he could impersonate him, as well as things like Lazarus’ name and state of being, what the White Mantle were doing, and so forth.

His actions require a lot of information before he could pop in as Lazarus. And we have no clue how he got that information.

If he has a mirror that can make him appear as a mursaat. Then a low ranking White mantle or even a working slave doesn’t sound that complicated. At least that’s what I was thinking. While not knowing the intricate details of things going on, he could easily observe what is happening with the bloodstone now. And thus form a plan on the spot, by impersonating a white mantle recruit or what not, to gain closer access to it.

The bloodstone in the ring of fire islands might not even be there anymore since after we killed the Lich on it the volcano erupted again, most likely making it either very inaccessible to get to, or some place else entirely. (Unless I missed something)

On the mirror: We don’t even know how it works. Who’s to say it can be used for multiple illusions or the like? And even then, how would Balthazar know how to look, act, etc. as a White Mantle or why would he risk being a slave? Too many unknowns.

About the Ring of Fire Bloodstone: Given that a Bloodstone’s destruction results in half of Central Tyria being wiped out, we can be sure that it didn’t get destroyed. We also know it has to be at that location because not only was it embedded in the ground that time, but it had to exist to power the Door of Komalie until Nightfall at the earliest, so it wasn’t destroyed in that volcano eruption (why would it be, when the Bloodstones existed there in the lava for centuries?).

To me it didn’t seem like he has much interest in Politics and intricate plans. and more, Either you’re with me or you’re against me.

His actions as Lazarus is 100% “politics and intricate plans” though.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

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Posted by: maddoctor.2738

maddoctor.2738

His actions require a lot of information before he could pop in as Lazarus. And we have no clue how he got that information.

What I hope for is that many of Balthazar’s actions will be explained in Path of Fire. We’ll find out who is helping him -from the inside maybe?

On the mirror: We don’t even know how it works.

I’m curious about that too. How did Balthazar know how Lazarus sounded like? They do have the same voice after all. Does the mirror allow someone to look like someone else simply by mentioning their name?

On another note: when did Lyssa give Balthazar the mirror?
Will we see Lyssa in Path of Fire? Or any of the other gods for that matter. Will they send their avatars again to offer advice to the heroes on how to defeat Balthazar?
If Balthazar can come back to our world why can’t the others?

If Balthazar could take the appearance of anyone using the mirror, he might’ve impersonated ANYONE we’ve ever met, and that’s how he got all the information about the bloodstones, the white mantle, Lazarus and so on.

But more importantly, is Anise really Lyssa in disguise and that’s how Balthazar got all his information? (This is a joke question by the way)

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Posted by: FrizzFreston.5290

FrizzFreston.5290

The posssibility is there, but we have no firm reason to believe such.

I must admit that most of what I said is speculation. It was purely about whether the possibility is there. When someone says it “doesn’t make sense at all” then I can see that there’s lot’s of possibilities that would make it into sense. I’m definitely not saying that what I said is the truth.

Most of it I would say we simply don’t know, I wouldn’t be willing to rule out that Balthazar knows about alot of things.

About the Ring of Fire Bloodstone: Given that a Bloodstone’s destruction results in half of Central Tyria being wiped out, we can be sure that it didn’t get destroyed. We also know it has to be at that location because not only was it embedded in the ground that time, but it had to exist to power the Door of Komalie until Nightfall at the earliest, so it wasn’t destroyed in that volcano eruption (why would it be, when the Bloodstones existed there in the lava for centuries?).

I can’t remember the Door of Komalie being opened or being relevant after we killed the lich on it. Also I didn’t mean destroyed, that would indeed be strange, especially considering the other parts surviving a flight after an eruption. I wouldn’t rule it out being flying out of the volcano, although as you say, unlikely. Ofcourse if the Door of Komalie still exists, or needs to exist then maybe not.

What I meant was that it could be buried under the mountain. The landscape has changed a great deal in the ring of fire, due to the volcanic activity there (and Primordus). And being close to Primordus might also not be a great place for a weakened God. That is, if he knew about that.

“It isn’t working!” CL4P-TP
Ingame Name: Guardian Erik

(edited by FrizzFreston.5290)

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Posted by: Manasa Devi.7958

Manasa Devi.7958

Well, I guess you’re willing to swallow excuses for a ramshackle story. I’m not.

Not “swallowing” anything.

If you cannot accept that something is done for rule of cool and not for some hidden lore purposes, and accept such “hidden lore purposes” (that do not exist) as fact, that’s simply not canon. That’s fanon.

Why do you keep up bringing the “rule of cool”?

Rule of Cool: “The limit of the willing suspension of disbelief for a given element is directly proportional to the element’s awesomeness.”

A: There wasn’t any stretching of my willingness to suspend my disbelief, there was just a lot of inconsistent nonsense going on.

B: There was nothing awesome going on at all. Monsters appearing in the center of pentagons is among the most tired and most old of tired old RPG clichés. If you really need to go down that well-traveled road for whatever reason, you better make sure everything else is at least adequate.

(edited by Manasa Devi.7958)

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

I can’t remember the Door of Komalie being opened or being relevant after we killed the lich on it. Also I didn’t mean destroyed, that would indeed be strange, especially considering the other parts surviving a flight after an eruption. I wouldn’t rule it out being flying out of the volcano, although as you say, unlikely. Ofcourse if the Door of Komalie still exists, or needs to exist then maybe not.

What I meant was that it could be buried under the mountain. The landscape has changed a great deal in the ring of fire, due to the volcanic activity there (and Primordus). And being close to Primordus might also not be a great place for a weakened God. That is, if he knew about that.

Based on Relkyss the Broken’s dialogue the Fury had been waiting for the Door of Komalie to open to send his Titan forces through. Even after the events of Prophecies, the Fury was still stationed on the other side of the Door of Komalie, even after invading the Dragon Festival he went back to that spot.

If the Door had opened, he would no doubt had taken advantage of such.

Primordus only showed up in the Ring of Fire literally in 1328/1329 AE. We tracked its movement as it moved. Before Balthazar even pretended to be Lazarus. Furthermore, we see Abaddon’s Mouth still visible in the world map, so that caldera hasn’t been buried or become inert.

Further, it doesn’t seem like Balthazar is at all influenced by proximity to Elder Dragons. While still weak, he went through a horde of destroyers and went face to face against Primordus long enough to activate Taimi’s Machine, without any tear for wear.

Why do you keep up bringing the “rule of cool”?

They added the pentagram, despite any logical reason for it being there, to set up the lazarus “ritual” because they thought it looked cool.

Whether you thought it “looked cool” or not is irrelevant to the fact they did and created such despite logical deduction in lore.

It ain’t that hard to comprehend.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

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Posted by: FrizzFreston.5290

FrizzFreston.5290

I can’t remember the Door of Komalie being opened or being relevant after we killed the lich on it. Also I didn’t mean destroyed, that would indeed be strange, especially considering the other parts surviving a flight after an eruption. I wouldn’t rule it out being flying out of the volcano, although as you say, unlikely. Ofcourse if the Door of Komalie still exists, or needs to exist then maybe not.

What I meant was that it could be buried under the mountain. The landscape has changed a great deal in the ring of fire, due to the volcanic activity there (and Primordus). And being close to Primordus might also not be a great place for a weakened God. That is, if he knew about that.

Based on Relkyss the Broken’s dialogue the Fury had been waiting for the Door of Komalie to open to send his Titan forces through. Even after the events of Prophecies, the Fury was still stationed on the other side of the Door of Komalie, even after invading the Dragon Festival he went back to that spot.

If the Door had opened, he would no doubt had taken advantage of such.

Is he next to such a gateway in Foundry? Because the Foundry seems to be the place where he lives. Even when Abaddon died he stays there and takes on a new master. I dont know if you can know from within if the way outside is blocked or doesnt exist anymore.

Primordus only showed up in the Ring of Fire literally in 1328/1329 AE. We tracked its movement as it moved. Before Balthazar even pretended to be Lazarus. Furthermore, we see Abaddon’s Mouth still visible in the world map, so that caldera hasn’t been buried or become inert.

I must say, I dunno how relevant the world map is. They also made SouthSun Cove appear out of nowhere (imo).
But yeah the point was that Balthazar seemed to have arrived after (I cant be sure) Primordus moved there, and if he had any notion of it he might felt himself to be too weak to go there. Which is a big IF.

Why he went to the Bloodstone Fen to me feels like he knew where it was somehow. Especially since he seemed to have it planned out to appear a mursaat and absorb its magic. All of which needs a great deal of scheming and carefull planning, without any knowledge like you claim. (could be he found out afterwards after getting back in touch with Tyria I suppose) I think that does indicate he had some clue of what he was doing.

Further, it doesn’t seem like Balthazar is at all influenced by proximity to Elder Dragons. While still weak, he went through a horde of destroyers and went face to face against Primordus long enough to activate Taimi’s Machine, without any tear for wear.

To be fair, that was after absorbing the bloodstone. We dont know how weak, weak is here. Its mostly that we know that because he considers himself weaker. For all we know he could be still way powerful in his weakened state. But then why hide your identity is the question. It could also be because fire is his element, that he has some natural resistance against Primordus. So yeah maybe he doesn’t need all that and couldve gone to the Bloodstone in the caldera.

There’s too many questions to explain it all. I hope we find out part of it in PoF or LW4

“It isn’t working!” CL4P-TP
Ingame Name: Guardian Erik

(edited by FrizzFreston.5290)

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

Is he next to such a gateway in Foundry? Because the Foundry seems to be the place where he lives. Even when Abaddon died he stays there and takes on a new master. I dont know if you can know from within if the way outside is blocked or doesnt exist anymore.

The Door led to the Foundary, we’re explicitly told by NPCs, so yes he is right next to there.

The Foundry wasn’t his home – it was his prison turned base of operations. And it was his base of operations because of the Door of Komalie.

But yeah the point was that Balthazar seemed to have arrived after (I cant be sure) Primordus moved there, and if he had any notion of it he might felt himself to be too weak to go there. Which is a big IF.

The thing is that we know he arrived before Primordus moved, as Primordus moved after Episode 1, and Balthazar had been manipulating Bauer for weeks if not months before then.

Why he went to the Bloodstone Fen to me feels like he knew where it was somehow. Especially since he seemed to have it planned out to appear a mursaat and absorb its magic. All of which needs a great deal of scheming and carefull planning, without any knowledge like you claim. (could be he found out afterwards after getting back in touch with Tyria I suppose) I think that does indicate he had some clue of what he was doing.

Which is rather my point. He “somehow knew” but there’s no reason presented for why or how he could know. Everything he exploited were things that happened after he left the world, and most of that was even after the avatars stopped showing up in the world.

It happened, but there’s basis for it happening. It’s a big plot hole. -points to thread title-

To be fair, that was after absorbing the bloodstone. We dont know how weak, weak is here. Its mostly that we know that because he considers himself weaker. For all we know he could be still way powerful in his weakened state. But then why hide your identity is the question. It could also be because fire is his element, that he has some natural resistance against Primordus. So yeah maybe he doesn’t need all that and couldve gone to the Bloodstone in the caldera.

There’s too many questions to explain it all. I hope we find out part of it in PoF or LW4

Well, he was weak enough he couldn’t kill Marjory. I think if he was unable to kill Marjory, then he’d be unable to take on an Elder Dragon head to head.

This implies that even having lost his divinity, he is somehow immune to dragon consumption (which would have nothing to do with Primordus being the Elder Fire Dragon). There’s a lot of evidence pointing to “divine magic” being immune to dragon consumption and corruption (Divine Torch, Foefire, Forgotten magic), so that’s likely why.

But all the same, Primordus was not at the Ring of Fire when Balthazar showed up as Lazarus, let alone when he arrived on the world. So even if he was as weak as a normal human being, all the while still immune to dragon corruption, he could have gone to the no-dragon-minions-around Ring of Fire Bloodstone and taken in that magic.

Unless there’s a reason he didn’t want to drain that particular Bloodstone.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

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Posted by: ugrakarma.9416

ugrakarma.9416

I think Balthazar had some level of omniscience, but it really is a strange thing to fit into this kind of story(or any kind of “superpower” of any God). For example, he knew the existence of Taimi’s machine, but he did not know exactly where it was, to the point of being easily deceived by the commmander who led him into the Kaesmer trap!

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

Given the wording, I took his knowledge of Taimi’s machine being due to either spies (he did have Inquest working for him at that point, after all) or word of mouth getting out that the Pact Commander, slayer of two Elder Dragons, is working with a genius asura to build a device that could kill two Elder Dragons (that kind of thing would get around fairly easily, when Taimi is dealing with dozens of asura as part of a krewe).

Him knowing about Taimi’s machine doesn’t seem as out of place as his ability to so perfectly infiltrate the White Mantle and impersonate Lazarus.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

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Posted by: Vayne.8563

Vayne.8563

Why assume we summoned balthazar? Maybe he just used the summoning opportunistically and we only think we summoned him.

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Posted by: Manasa Devi.7958

Manasa Devi.7958

Why do you keep up bringing the “rule of cool”?

They added the pentagram, despite any logical reason for it being there, to set up the lazarus “ritual” because they thought it looked cool.

Whether you thought it “looked cool” or not is irrelevant to the fact they did and created such despite logical deduction in lore.

It ain’t that hard to comprehend.

The thing that really shouldn’t be hard to comprehend is that “the rule of cool” is an explicit excuse for poor storytelling. Explicit.

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

And I never argued otherwise?

In fact, from the very beginning I was saying that the pentagram has no lore to it. “No lore” to something rather pivotal is pretty close if not the same as “poor storytelling”.

You were the one who assumed there was lore to it and kept insisting there was.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.