Guild Wars 2

^^ Was an interesting talk.

One part of me hopes my theory will be right but other thinks that a “surprise story” will be better.

Luindu.2418:

1. And that’s what my theory point, we’re wrong about balthazar’s real plans.
2. In nightfall, Abaddon seems soo human, a giant floating head with a pair of floating hands, its obvious that they can change his shape to their convenience.
3. Not the same thing, but we know that dragons and Gods absorbs the same magic, the theory is that 1 vs 1 as spheres of domain, but if one God of dragon have all, they break the equilibrium, think about it like a Yin Yang.
4. A mortal with a gift of gods can let him absorb part of Abaddon, if that gift isn’t important why is Kormir the only one who can absorbs Abaddon? why not our characters? or someone like Jurah, the master of secrets?
5. When looses Grenth the domain of water before the Abaddon’s defeat? Never, and even when abaddon is alive, Grenth has the ice domain. Water and Ice are differents.
6. Schrodinger Past…

1. He makes his plans pretty obvious from the get go though.
2. In lore, Abaddon’s body was destroyed during the war just before the Exodus. In nightfall, you can go to the point where he was defeated (Mouth of Torment) and see his mask, glove, and sword – the former two are also visible on Abaddon’s statue. The body you linked to is him creating a new one out of the Realm of Torment itself.
   • The Gate of Pain is one of the great locks erected by the five gods to imprison Abaddon. Located on the first layer of the Realm of Torment, the lock was sundered when Varesh completed her convocation with Abaddon, allowing the fallen lord to coalesce enough of his godform to begin extruding parts of his tormented realm into the real world. Past the gate lies a river of tormented souls kitten ed to live in Abaddon’s pain forever.
   • The Gate of Anguish is one of the great locks erected by the five gods to imprison Abaddon. Located on the first layer of the Realm of Torment, the lock was sundered when Varesh performed her unholy ceremony at the Temple of Lyssa in Vabbi, allowing the fallen lord to coalesce part of his godform and gain much greater control over his prison. Past the gate lies a whirpool of darkness.
3. Like I said before, 1 on 1 does not work. Whether you’re relating the gods or just the domains. There is not enough unknown dragon domains to match the known god domains. And even then, the secondary god domains change too much – they even have tertiary domains in GW2 based on the biography. Which supports the notion that all but the primary domain are just “flavor” and not actually domains.
4. Nothing ever says that only Kormir could have absorbed Abaddon. You’re making an assumption based on the fact that only one of multiple probabilities occurred.
5. When Abaddon was imprisoned, Grenth was the patron god of water magic for Elementalists. When Kormir rose to godhood, Elementalists looked to Lyssa as patron to water magic. That’s what I was referring to.
6. “Schrodinger Past” is something that doesn’t exist. We know they are that pre-fall Abaddon and post-fall Abaddon are the same being – there is no mystery about it like you’re acting there is to be.

Luindu.2418:

Imho as opposite concepts or “corrupt” concepts:

• Grenth (Death/Rest) – Zhaitan (Undead)
• Kormir (Thruth) – Abaddon/DSD (Secrets)
• Balthazar (War with honor) – Primordus (War as destruction, scorched earth tactics)
• Lyssa (Reflection) – Kralkatorrik (Twisted Reflection)
• Melandru (Nature) – Mordremoth (Corrupted Nature)
  *Dwayna (Warmth of life, like “Take care of people”) – Jormag (“cold life”)
  I’m ok with there are two points, Jormag and Kralkatorrik, that maybe i’m not using the correct words, but i hope you understand what i’m thinking xD

• Primordus is not war, just fire. The only relation between Balthazar and Primordus is fire. Theory puts Primordus’ second domain to, in fact, be Earth.
• Lyssa is not reflection – this is her take on water, but her primary domain(s) is/are Beauty and/or Illusion. Kralkatorrik has nothing in relation to either, just as Lyssa has nothing in relation to crystal.
• Jormag has nothing to do with life.
• As Kormir took Abaddon’s power, if you count Abaddon on the godside you must then ignore Kormir. Thus it would be 5v6(or7), ultimately leading your own foundation for the theory to ruin your theory.

Here are the primary, secondary, and tertiary (in order) domains of the gods and fallen gods:

• Abaddon = Knowledge, Water, N/A
• Balthazar = War, Fire, Challenge
• Dhuum = Death, Darkness, N/A
• Dwayna = Life, Air, Healing
• Grenth = Death, Ice, Darkness
• Lyssa = Beauty, Illusion, Water
• Melandru = Nature, Earth, Growth
• Kormir = Knowledge, Order, Spirit

The gods are associated with a few more things too – like Grenth to Sorrow, Destruction, and Judgement, or Kormir to Justice, or Dhuum to fire – thus furthering the idea that secondary and tertiary are just flavor and only the first holds any sway on their actual domains.

Here are the primary and secondary domains of the dragons, as we know and can suspect:

• Primordus = Fire (and Earth?)
• Jormag = Ice (and Soul?)
• Mordremoth = Plant and Mind
• Zhaitan = Death and Shadow
• Kralkatorrik = Crystal (and Air/Sky?)
• DSD = Unknown and Unknown

As you can see, the primary domains for each dragon is largely elemental – the main exception being Zhaitan (though one could argue death to be an element) – while the gods’ main domains are more metaphysical or existentialist. This does lead the argument of the DSD’s primary domain being water, mind you, but it remains too little information to properly guess this.

Luindu.2418:

1. [url=https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Margonite] "n 175 BE, they ruled over the Unending Ocean and they began to create settlements on the coastlines north and west of Elona. "
2. and why are you sure of the DSD awoke? in wiki is unknown.
3. “The only known shape of the deep sea dragon’s corruption comes from The Movement of the World, claiming that it twists water into tentacled horrors”
   Margonites, Water and Tentacles, three coincidences with Abaddon ;D
4. I don’t thinks is a “domain”, is only two wills fighting each other to take control.

1. As we see with the world map provided in gw2 (fan recreation in English ) which was unknown in GW1, the Unending Ocean is basically the entire world. We know that the Margonites didn’t exist all over the world – their primary domain was between Tyria and Cantha, which is the Clashing Seas (indeed within the Unending Ocean). Before that world map came out, we throught the Clashing Seas and Unending Ocean were one and the same, since lore only spoke of the Unending Ocean as the ocean between Tyria/Elona and Cantha.
2. I am so sure because I did my research using existing lore – the TL;DR of it is this: The quaggans, krait, and karka pushed out by the DSD only exist around the Sea of Sorrows indicating southern presence – if they were southeast, however, they’d have landed on Elona first, thus indicating southwest of Tyria (west of Battle Isles); further, the waters between Cantha and Elona are shallow, and we know the DSD woke up in the “deepest depths” of the seas so it isn’t like the exiled races did a fishhook shaped migration along the Elonian coastline. Thus the only direction the DSD could be is southwest of TYria, and the most likely direction being, incidentally, where the sea dragon icon is in the Durmand Priory world map linked above.
3. There is no relation between Margonites and the DSD. The tentacles relation is probably as profoundly connected as Abaddon’s tend of six eyes and the Jade Constructs having six eyes (read: nolore relation), or even the Shadow Army using White Mantle models uniquely (read: no lore relation). The former is because some of ArenaNet has a thing for eyes (those two aren’t even the only ones for multiple rows of eyes – Kekai Kotaki did a lot of such art, and we see similar things in the Titans, for example); the latter is because of reusing art assets to make things easier.
4. Then how could the wills even begin to clash, without any mindscape or telepathic connection? The machine never touched either – it was merely transferring magical power.

@Konig first post:

1. I have doubts about his true intentions. Why Balthazar want to kill all dragons and try to save a dragon (Aurene)? After or before we know it and try to stop it.
2. A big human head with 6 eyes and a insectoid mouth, the statues you can see clearly a human mouth and clearly the mask hidding his eyes as opossite to Nightfall form. That’s why i’m pointing to a “wish form” for the gods, like Gw1 statues of Melandru saw her as a Dryad with his legs inside a tree or even avatar of gods with various forms. Vareh also shows a transformation process to become more inhuman when is closest to Abaddon.
3. I think is obvious that a good domain never match with a dragon, that’s why i talk about opposites fighting for the energies of the world and how they use it.
4. Is at least curious that gods blessed with a special gift “of a choice” to kormir (“And to you, kormir, a most special gift”) and she remember that gift just when is going to absorbs Abaddon… Why that choice is need to be a bless/gift? If ins’t needed any Gw1 player become the god of truth.
5. One of the ele human water phrases: "Feel Grenth’s icy embrace! ", I never see a reference of the kormyr-water. A human can pray to any god without reference to his class.
6. “calm figure with imposing blue eyes – deep, like the colors of the sea. His generosity was only matched by his namesake, the ocean, which was both his dominion and said to be the physical manifestation of his blue wings. " Another relation to the Sea, and a changed form, but the guy who post this isn’t sure of it’s official info

• About relations of Gods/Dragons as i say in 3rd point.

@Konig 2nd Post:

1. I can’t find any info about DSD awakening place. But i think awoke was on https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Crystal_Sea
2. Kraits (i understand from the unending ocean) and jormag in north - Observe the difference between UO and “unnamed seas to the north”.
3. I point the Crystal Sea because was part of the unending ocean (as i understand the UO on previous point) and where the Margonita (humans) lived and was casual that Abaddon’s prission was that sea before Gods beat him. “and he was eventually struck down at the Mouth of Torment, Abaddon was incensed and went to war with the others, and he was eventually struck down at the Mouth of Torment, in a blow that turned the Crystal Sea into a desert.”
4. Really? Why can Balthazar fight for stole the dragon power then? (even we see in the volcano that “<Character name>: He’s here, but…not here. If that makes sense. Above the machine. In the channel of magic.”

TL:DR: It’s obvius that we can’t change our opinions. I explained my theory and the only things where it can fail is info that we’re not sure if its right or not, the future tells us

Luindu.2418:

1. A big human head with 6 eyes and a insectoid mouth, the statues you can see clearly a human mouth and clearly the mask hidding his eyes as opossite to Nightfall form. -snip rest-
2. I think is obvious that a good domain never match with a dragon, that’s why i talk about opposites fighting for the energies of the world and how they use it.
3. Is at least curious that gods blessed with a special gift “of a choice” to kormir (“And to you, kormir, a most special gift”) and she remember that gift just when is going to absorbs Abaddon… Why that choice is need to be a bless/gift? If ins’t needed any Gw1 player become the god of truth.
4. One of the ele human water phrases: "Feel Grenth’s icy embrace! ", I never see a reference of the kormyr-water. A human can pray to any god without reference to his class.

1. Again, Abaddon’s body was destroyed when he was defeated in Year 0. He created a new body out of the Realm of Torment which has very fleshy and insectoid landscapes
2. Then that’s not a 1:1 shared domain. If the “good” and “bad” do not match, then they do not match. It’s that simple.
3. Obviously the GW1 PC couldn’t from a storytelling/mechanical standpoint (can you imagine having “the god who’s name and gender is never specified”?). But again, we see no special effects, no magic tied to these blessings. They are but words, words said by avatars – not gods.
   So it is impossible to know whether that “special gift” was anything more than mental motivation for Kormir to do the deed. And even if it was more, nothing says it is necessary, nor did Kormir become more than mortal through that blessing.
4. I never said Kormir was tied to water. I said Lyssa is.
   And yes, a human can pray to any god. That’s why I said patron god. As in the god’s blessings are most effective to that profession. This was most easily seen in GW1, through avatar blessings with skills such as Necromancer of Grenth or Disciple of Ice

Luindu.2418:

1. I can’t find any info about DSD awakening place. But i think awoke was on https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Crystal_Sea
2. Kraits (i understand from the unending ocean) and jormag in north - Observe the difference between UO and “unnamed seas to the north”.
3. I point the Crystal Sea because was part of the unending ocean (as i understand the UO on previous point) and where the Margonita (humans) lived and was casual that Abaddon’s prission was that sea before Gods beat him. “and he was eventually struck down at the Mouth of Torment, Abaddon was incensed and went to war with the others, and he was eventually struck down at the Mouth of Torment, in a blow that turned the Crystal Sea into a desert.”
4. Really? Why can Balthazar fight for stole the dragon power then? (even we see in the volcano that “<Character name>: He’s here, but…not here. If that makes sense. Above the machine. In the channel of magic.”

I’m sorry, but you SERIOUSLY need to do your research better. Or at least put two and two together, because you’re now contradicting your own points in the same very post.

• The Crystal Sea doesn’t exist anymore. It’s a desert now. As you so quoted yourself.
• The oldest GW2 lore we got tells us that the DSD woke up “in the deepest waters of the sea.” Not deepest sands.
• We know that the Southern Quaggans, the krait, and the karka were all pushed out by the DSD – either by NPCs such as Bullablopp"":https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bullablopp or by dev comments. We also know that the largos, similarly from the southern seas, are currently fighting the DSD’s minions.
• The Crystal Sea was not part of the Unending Ocean as it was an inland sea. The Unending Ocean is, as you can tell by its name, an ocean. Inland seas are never part of oceans.
• Uh, Balthazar could steal the dragon’s power because he was inserting himself into the flow of magic that the machine was sapping from the Elder Dragons – as we saw in Bloodstone Fen, he can absorb magic because of his godly (or formerly godly) nature. There is no battle of wills in siphoning magic, otherwise necromancers would be battling wills every time they drain life force.

Luindu.2418:

TL:DR: It’s obvius that we can’t change our opinions. I explained my theory and the only things where it can fail is info that we’re not sure if its right or not, the future tells us

And it also seems to be obvious that you cannot accept that parts of your theory are established on false information or the intentional ignoring of true information.

In fact, the further into discussion we go, the more you contradict canon lore with your theorycrafting.

And I can tell you now: if your theories are already debunked ten times over, they won’t ever become true.

@Konig He created a new body out of the Realm of Torment “which has very fleshy” and “insectoid landscapes”
A : You said that the form a gods can create is deformed by the enviroment?

@Konig : Then that’s not a 1:1 shared domain. If the “good” and “bad” do not match, then they do not match. It’s that simple.
A : All the 1:1 domains and not match domains are pure theorycrafting because we don’t know how it works and i said it this is my point of view.

@Konig : Obviously the GW1 PC couldn’t from a storytelling/mechanical standpoint (can you imagine having “the god who’s name and gender is never specified”?). But again, we see no special effects, no magic tied to these blessings. They are but words, words said by avatars – not gods.
A : I love the idea of a good God of Secrets, based on the PC where no one knows his true form or his gender.

@Konig : So it is impossible to know whether that “special gift” was anything more than mental motivation for Kormir to do the deed. And even if it was more, nothing says it is necessary, nor did Kormir become more than mortal through that blessing.
A : That’s why i point with unknown facts, you claim i’m wrong with the same rights i claim you’re.

@konig I never said Kormir was tied to water. I said Lyssa is
A: That’s true, i missread that part and understand you’re talking about kormir, sorry about that confusion.

@Konig : * The Crystal Sea doesn’t exist anymore. It’s a desert now. As you so quoted yourself.
A : Yeah, my mistake there, because i’m more focused on the fact that if abaddon’s make the Crystal Sea a Desert (as i said in my post) after he was defeated by gods? Sounds very strange that the vortex to the Torment Realm was in the Desolation and before that fight the desolation was the Crystal Sea. All the Gods go through a vortex in the sea to fight Abaddon?
“…he was eventually struck down at the Mouth of Torment, in a blow that turned the Crystal Sea into a desert.” + "Crystal Sea was raised so that all water was emptied into the ocean, creating the Crystal Desert and the Desolation as they are today known. " = Vortex to realm of torment was in the Depths of the Unending Ocean.
The fact that the DSD awoke date was unknown, make me suspicious, but the relation between Abaddon and DSD seems very accurated.

@Konig : And it also seems to be obvious that you cannot accept that parts of your theory are established on false information or the intentional ignoring of true information. In fact, the further into discussion we go, the more you contradict canon lore with your theorycrafting.
A : first, as a human i can make mistakes, more if try to search a understand all information from not my native language, but i’m not the only one, you post something from a forum claiming is a official fact to prove you’re right but the autor of that post not be sure about the officiality and saying that he search in a chinese webs.

Luindu.2418:

1. You said that the form a gods can create is deformed by the enviroment?
2. All the 1:1 domains and not match domains are pure theorycrafting because we don’t know how it works and i said it this is my point of view.
3. I love the idea of a good God of Secrets, based on the PC where no one knows his true form or his gender.
4. Yeah, my mistake there, because i’m more focused on the fact that if abaddon’s make the Crystal Sea a Desert (as i said in my post) after he was defeated by gods? Sounds very strange that the vortex to the Torment Realm was in the Desolation and before that fight the desolation was the Crystal Sea. All the Gods go through a vortex in the sea to fight Abaddon?
   “…he was eventually struck down at the Mouth of Torment, in a blow that turned the Crystal Sea into a desert.” + "Crystal Sea was raised so that all water was emptied into the ocean, creating the Crystal Desert and the Desolation as they are today known. " = Vortex to realm of torment was in the Depths of the Unending Ocean.
   The fact that the DSD awoke date was unknown, make me suspicious, but the relation between Abaddon and DSD seems very accurated.

1. Not quite sure what you’re getting at there. What I said is that his body was destroyed, by all indication. His human body was pulverized. So he had to make a new body, and it reflected the materials he made it from – the Realm of Torment.
2. We have a fairly decent idea of how it works, however. And even then, how would you explain the fact we know the gods and their power is 100% not related, at all, to Tyria while the Elder Dragons’ power is 100% related and bound to Tyria?
3. But that wouldn’t work from a narrative standpoint. Especially in an MMO. Not only could you never name or genderize the god, who would be a massive figure, especially in Elona and upcoming PoF, but you could never have a statue of the god either, could never detailed its past (because of multiple origins), despite the fact it is not a secret, but known to all Tyrians.
4. Abaddon didn’t make the desert. The five gods did, when they defeated Abaddon and destroyed his body. Basically, when they defeated him, his impact made a huge ass crater that shifted the sea levels, raising the ground of what was the Crystal Sea to above sea level, draining it out. He wasn’t defeated in the Crystal Sea, but along its shoreline (which is what the Desolation was at the time, a verdant coastline). The Vortext was created during Nightfall, in GW1 – it did not exist during the war between gods. The DSD did not really wake up at an unknown date – we know from Season 2 that it woke up between Primordus and Jormag. That gives us a 50 year timespan, give or take. Just like Kralkatorrik had a delayed awakening thus woke up near Mordremoth’s time, Primordus had a delayed awakening and thus woke up near the DSD’s time.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

1. Not quite sure what you’re getting at there. What I said is that his body was destroyed, by all indication. His human body was pulverized. So he had to make a new body, and it reflected the materials he made it from – the Realm of Torment.
2. We have a fairly decent idea of how it works, however. And even then, how would you explain the fact we know the gods and their power is 100% not related, at all, to Tyria while the Elder Dragons’ power is 100% related and bound to Tyria?
3. But that wouldn’t work from a narrative standpoint. Especially in an MMO. Not only could you never name or genderize the god, who would be a massive figure, especially in Elona and upcoming PoF, but you could never have a statue of the god either, could never detailed its past (because of multiple origins), despite the fact it is not a secret, but known to all Tyrians.
4. Abaddon didn’t make the desert. The five gods did, when they defeated Abaddon and destroyed his body. Basically, when they defeated him, his impact made a huge ass crater that shifted the sea levels, raising the ground of what was the Crystal Sea to above sea level, draining it out. He wasn’t defeated in the Crystal Sea, but along its shoreline (which is what the Desolation was at the time, a verdant coastline). The Vortext was created during Nightfall, in GW1 – it did not exist during the war between gods. The DSD did not really wake up at an unknown date – we know from Season 2 that it woke up between Primordus and Jormag. That gives us a 50 year timespan, give or take. Just like Kralkatorrik had a delayed awakening thus woke up near Mordremoth’s time, Primordus had a delayed awakening and thus woke up near the DSD’s time.

1. Because is seems interesting option, even if i think that Abaddon’s use energy to make a body at his will/way.
2. Mmm i’m not sure, is a controversial point we don’t have enought information. If i’m correct (idk) all the domains asociated is by the religion of the NPC’s and that must not accurated at all, that’s why i prefer to think about a more YinYang flow of energy between gods and dragons.
3. Yeah Narrative, that’s why i think Anet erase the option of characters options to ascend a God Form making the need of the Gift. But think about it, if we don’t know that Grenth is the son of Dwayna, his race/aspect/gender would be unknown (only looking his statue).
4. Mmm maybe i missunderstand that phrases, yeah definetely its make more sense that the gods “erase and bury” the water territory of Abaddon/DSD.

Luindu.2418:

1. Mmm i’m not sure, is a controversial point we don’t have enought information. If i’m correct (idk) all the domains asociated is by the religion of the NPC’s and that must not accurated at all, that’s why i prefer to think about a more YinYang flow of energy between gods and dragons.
2. Yeah Narrative, that’s why i think Anet erase the option of characters options to ascend a God Form making the need of the Gift. But think about it, if we don’t know that Grenth is the son of Dwayna, his race/aspect/gender would be unknown (only looking his statue).
3. Mmm maybe i missunderstand that phrases, yeah definetely its make more sense that the gods “erase and bury” the water territory of Abaddon/DSD.

1. That still doesn’t account for the fact that the Six Gods – or [at least Dwayna, Balthazar, Melandru, and Abaddon](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Orrian_History_Scrolls#The_Six) have their powers coming from another world / beyond the Mists, a place where the Elder Dragons cannot influence [except by stealing the divine’s power to do so](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Havroun_Solvi). There’s a very clear difference in the powers, origins, and capabilities of dragons and gods, even if their numbers are equal.
2. We would know he’s male, given he’s always called such. And we knwo well enough to know him to be humanoid – we technically do not know his race, we’re told he is the son of Dwayna (race unknown) and a “mortal sculptor” – while many accept such is Malchor, a human, this is never confirmed.
3. They didn’t really “erase” Abaddon’s territory, however. The Crystal Desert’s formation was an unintended side-effect of Abaddon’s defeat – unintended by all parties, best we know. And the DSD was never once related to the Crystal Sea, which again is not part of the Unending Ocean.

Balthazar = Archaon……………

to @Zoltreez – jajaja ;D i want to see the skritt’s under-empire rise using bloodstones…

Konig Des Todes.2086:

1. That still doesn’t account for the fact that the Six Gods – or [at least Dwayna, Balthazar, Melandru, and Abaddon](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Orrian_History_Scrolls#The_Six) have their powers coming from another world / beyond the Mists, a place where the Elder Dragons cannot influence [except by stealing the divine’s power to do so](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Havroun_Solvi). There’s a very clear difference in the powers, origins, and capabilities of dragons and gods, even if their numbers are equal.
2. We would know he’s male, given he’s always called such. And we knwo well enough to know him to be humanoid – we technically do not know his race, we’re told he is the son of Dwayna (race unknown) and a “mortal sculptor” – while many accept such is Malchor, a human, this is never confirmed.
3. They didn’t really “erase” Abaddon’s territory, however. The Crystal Desert’s formation was an unintended side-effect of Abaddon’s defeat – unintended by all parties, best we know. And the DSD was never once related to the Crystal Sea, which again is not part of the Unending Ocean.

1. I think they need to be differents as opossites, and this may explain why Dragons and Gods have a “cycle of activity”, something like using the pure energy of a sphere (like omadd machine shows) to make his “concept” a real thing. Like gods blessings (gw1), Abaddon’s corruption on margonites/Realm of torment and the Elder Dragons minions.
   Imho (theory) the spheres represent something like nodes of the leyline: a sphere can be the “life energy” – dwayna can use it to heal people or the opossite dragon Zhaitan (as example) can use it in a twisted form of life (undeads).
2. ^^ i know, was talking about if it’s possible to do a Statue without hints of the gender/race/etc of a God. But the best narrative option (for my regret) was a NPC as God. ( €¬~$% Kormir! She stole my divinity!)
3. I think the opposite (each quote has a wiki link): “but all large bodies of water are called the Unending Ocean. "
   +
   “Before the Exodus of the Gods, the Margonites were a seafaring people who chose to worship Abaddon exclusively, rather than all six gods. In 175 BE, they ruled over the Clashing Seas within the Unending Ocean and they began to create settlements on the coastlines north and west of Elona. " (Imho Crystal Sea was part of Clashing Seas,that explain why is AKA Great Sea when Crystal Sea was erased)
   +
   “According to An Empire Divided, historians believe the Luxons once sailed in the then Crystal Sea over a thousand years ago which may be where the Margonites sailed”
   +
   " ( Jadoth, chosen of Abaddon, the first of the Margonites ) he was hunted down by the Forgotten and exiled to the Crystal Sea ." – Big point here, the first margonite sail the crystal sea…

1. Abaddon/DSD ruled the water and the fight was in the Crystal Sea, curious side effect if wasn’t his territory, also the realm of torment wasn’t the Abaddon’s territory, it was his prission:
   “Though originally meant as a prison for Abaddon and other corrupted souls, the Realm has become overrun by the god’s influence. " - interesting one, Abaddon’s corrupt the Realm, that points about the insectoid/tentacles corruption must be his power of corruption ;D and the similar look like of Abaddon and DSD make more sense again.

Also is curious that when we defeat a Dragon his energy go through a vortex that looks like very similiar to the map of the Realm of Torment….
Omadd Machine Vision vs Realm of the Torment Map

Also i have a some suspicious about the gods power source, like you link in the point 1: “have their powers coming from another world / beyond the Mists” that match very close to the definition of the Realm of Torment that “lies in the mist” + "The realm has been cut off from mortal access until Nightfall. " (a part of the mist beyond the mists ;D) and the book you linked don’t talk about Kormyr that’s means that is a book writed before Nightfall story.

I had written up something length that was too long for the forum but realized that I’m just hitting my head against a brick wall at this point. So let’s try shortening things…

Re Dragon/God Domains: No matter how fancy you pull the “opposites of same domain”, we see that their powers – the gods’ powers and the dragons’ powers – are of two completely separate origins.

Re Crystal Sea/Unending Ocean: You took nearly every single quote there out of context, greatly misunderstood them, and none of them support your claim. They all, in fact, deny your claim. Despite that, except for the second to last one, they’re all fan written and hell I’m pretty sure I wrote each and every one of them. You’re literally trying to tell me what I know, and say I’m wrong about it, while using my own words.

The two are not the same – the Crystal Sea is not the same as the Clashing Seas either. Ignoring the fact that the Crystal Sea no longer exists, there was a mountain range between the two, and the Margonites also had a coastal presence (the Marga Coast being named after them). They are no more the same body of water than the Mediterranean Sea being the same thing as the Atlantic Ocean. They are, in fact, more separated from each other than the Mediterranean Sea and Atlantic Ocean.

Re Abaddon and the Realm of Torment: Again, you’re taking quotes out of context and greatly misunderstanding them. The battle wasn’t in the Crystal Sea, but not far from the shore of it. The battle focused around the Gates of Heaven. The Realm of Torment was indeed Abaddon’s territory – his realm in the Mists. He was imprisoned inside his own realm in the Mists, just like Dhuum was. The Realm of Torment was not corrupted by Abaddon – there is no “Abaddon’s corruption”. The only changes he made to the realm was turning parts of it to mirror Elona so that he could merge the two together and break out of his prison. The “corrupted souls” bit (ArenaNet overuses the term “corrupt” btw to mean a many different things – and you’ve fallen into a trap of seeing one over-used word and thinking it has one singular meaning) does not refer to any twisting like dragon corruption, but just those “touched” by Abaddon’s influence – basically, if a person learned about Abaddon’s existence, fought against his folllowers, or were one of his followers, they were put into the Realm of Torment upon death.

Re The All: The All’s structural similarities to the map of the Realm of Torment is undoubtably similar. This actually ties back to lore from Prophecies, this map of the Mists by Lord Odran – ArenaNet has a continuing trend of mapping the Mists in the form of alchemy circles of sorts. There is no direct relation to the Realm of Torment and The All.

The All is not a vortex either, I don’t get where you got that from. That cinematic the image you linked to is showing Zhaitan’s magic returning to the world of Tyria – there is no vortex it travels though. The All is the world of Tyria and six bodies of power (which are tied to, but are not, the Elder Dragons) – basically the magical version of looking at Earth from space and seeing the wind currents, magnetic sphere, etc.

Re “Suspicions”: The Mists contain everything, they are the multiverse of Guild Wars’ setting. Compare them to a continuous Big Bang and outerspace in one.

So there is absolutely nothing suspicious about the gods being from the Mists, controlling parts of the Mists, or the Realm of Torment also being from the Mists. This is in fact, anticipated.

And still fairly long.

Look, you’re clearly not understanding the things you’re reading. Take a bit longer, and please stop presenting my own words in out-of-context fractures to try to tell me that I’m wrong.

Playing devil’s advocate, I could see crystals as being a kind of ‘alternate take’ on Lyssa’s beauty and illusions. Crystals are, after all, often seen as beautiful, and can have some weird effects on light that can, in the right circumstances, lead to the creation of illusions.

It’s certainly a stretch, but it’s not a ridiculous one.

Jormag being ‘cold life’ as the corrupted form of Dwayna, on the other hand, feels like the kind of “how can I pair up the leftovers?” that typically happens when people try to make those pairings. You might be better off linking the compassion of Dwayna to the mercilessness espoused by Jormag, but that’s more of a complete opposite than a corrupted form.

Heck, you might be better off pairing Mordremoth with Dwayna, and Jormag with Melandru – Mordremoth representing life running rampant, and Jormag representing nature in its harshest aspects (freezing cold and predators red in tooth and claw). However, Episode 5 makes it pretty clear that ice and fire are the cores of the magic of Jormag and Primordus respectively.

At the bottom line, you still need to remember that the gods explicitly come from somewhere outside of Tyria. The most likely scenario is that the gods (or their progenitors) were the equivalents of the Elder Dragons from whichever location they came from.

@draxynnic, yes idk the exactly combination of them, but for me the idea seems pretty consistent, obviusly we need more info.

@konig

• Re Dragon/God Domains: afaik we don’t have a point that exclude they of using the same energy, in fact we know that Balthazar wants to stop the dragons to use his power. Also, Dragons absorb the energy from the Leylines which are the source of our magic and who gives us the magic? The Gods.
• Re Crystal Sea/Unending Ocean: I was telling you they was united, because the mountain you say (the desolation?) i understand that rise at the same time of the crystal desert because “the Crystal Sea’s floor rose and created the Crystal Desert and the Desolation.” from 2nd paragraph beginning from the bottom of “Before the Exodus” (before the Reign of humans part) and the last part of the 2 paragraph of this link, if i understand correct, and now erase the desolation and the crystal desert from the world map the Clashing Seas (all around the Battle isles) was united with the Crystal Sea by the northeast part.
• Re Abaddon and the Realm of Torment: Where are the Gates of Heavens? Can you point the exact location? (imho can’t be much far from the gates of torment, otherwise the 5 gods travel from the world pulling Abaddon).
  I post you qoutes from the wiki point that RoT was a prission literally “where individuals of twisted evil or corruption are banished”, but i don’t find a single quote that talks about it as Abaddon’s Territory/Domain. Why the Gods want to imprision Abaddon inside his (Abaddon’s) territory? And why Abaddon (God of Water and Secrets) fill his domain with sand? (remember that lyssa take the water after Nightfall events) Imho that doesn’t make any sense.
• Re The All: I point that “the all” is the mechanism (as wiki says) that control the equilibrium of energies, and part of this machine was the vortex. The image i linked was from before the Mordremoth fight (not Zhaitan) and i have the idea of a vortex from the point that a giant circle with a brilliant hole in his center and the similarities with the RoT.

Maybe i fail explaining myself, because the language, but i take my time to answer after reading and reading again your points and the gw1/gw2 wikis. For me, the wiki qoutes i post seems very clear, but when aren’t clear enough i’m the first to say Imho/i think or something similar.

And all of this, Imho makes high possible DSD/Abaddon theory will be correct and if it’s correct, my first post about Balthazar corruption/usurped by Primordus makes sense.

Luindu.2418:

-snip-

1. We have proof that the Elder Dragons are tied to Tyria. We have proof that the gods are not tied to Tyria. That is indeed a point that excludes them using the same energy. Further, the gods did not create magic – that’s human legend which was proven false in GW2 (GWW will not mention it due to a rule GWW has of “only including GW1 info”), magic always existed, the gods merely released magic from the Bloodstone (created by the Seers) into the open world, then when King Doric pleaded for them to rescind their “gift” they put it back into the Bloodstone and divided it into five.
2. The Desolation has no mountain range. That mountain range borders the outside of the desolation and there is zero indication it was non-existent prior to the Exodus. If it did, then Orr would have been an island; however, it has always been called a peninsula. If there was no division, whether by land or water channel, they could not have called it by a different name, would they? And above all, the Crystal Sea was never part of the Unending Ocean. Otherwise, there would be no point in saying the Margonites ruled over the Crystal Sea and the Unending Ocean. That’s merely repetition unless those locations were distinctly different.
3. We do not know the exact location of the Gates of Heaven. Yes, it is far from the Gates of Torment as the Gates of Torment are in the Realm of Torment while the Gates of Heaven are in Tyria (as that is where Abaddon launched the attack). The gods locked Abaddon in his own realm because they wanted to erase all knowledge of Abaddon – doing so in his own realm was basically locking up knowledge with knowledge (see: Domain of Secrets). They never filled “Abaddon’s domain” with sand. You’re taking that out of nowhere. The Crystal Sea was not Abaddon’s domain. How many times must I say this? That’s why it doesn’t make sense to you – you’re making assumptions which are false and proven false.
4. The giant circle in the center is not a vortex. It is a representation of Tyria. See this image.

At this point, I’m just repeating myself over and over, without acknowledgment of these words. Continuing this is pointless.

EDIT: I did this mockup of how the Crystal Sea likely looked based on dialogue as well as heights of landscapes in GW1 maps for a little side project last year. Perhaps this will help visualize what I’m saying. Precise placement of shore etc. is likely off here and there but the generals should be more or less accurate. And it probably doesn’t go far south enough but it should suffice to get my point across I hope.

Regarding the location of the “Gates of Heaven,” the Priest of Abaddon presents a theory that the other gods may have defeated and captured Abaddon at Abaddon’s Reliquary in Siren’s Landing. If this theory holds merit, perhaps the “Gates of Heaven” were gates to Arah, a city where the gods lived for a time and which could be poetically viewed as “heaven”. It wouldn’t be a big stretch that after a failed assault, Abaddon continued fighting further away from the gates, withdrawing towards his reliquary and had his last stand there before being beaten and captured.

Relevant dialogue:

Player character: Do you know why there are so many statues of Abaddon here?
Priest of Abaddon: We believe this was where he made his last stand before they captured him, and he put protective spells upon them all. He did not want to be forgotten. He has not been.

However, given how biased views the priest presents in various conversations with him, there’s a possibility that he’s wrong, but the theory itself is fascinating nevertheless.

I honestly would not take anything the Priest of Abaddon takes without a large heaping of salt. Firstly because everything he says is his speculation or theory on the matter, but also because some of what he says contradicts facts we know. Further, the whole dialogue reads like your typical “Abaddon did nothing wrong” fan posts that push him as a good guy from beginning to end. He felt like a 100% “putting fan statements into the story” kind of thing.

It would also seem very weird for him to be captured, just to be smote in a crater-making event far away from his supposed place of capture, where his sword and armor laid for a thousand years.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

…

1. You missunderstand me, i said they “give us” (uhm the correct form will be “gave us”?) but not in the meaning of they created, more in reference of something they have/use it before us. But the big problem here is the energy of gods/dragons with two options:
   A) If Dragons/Gods can’t use the same energy, Balthazar plans of killing ED to stole and use their power doesn’t have any sense because he can’t use it. Then i’m right with my first theory of Balthazar’s plan was a lie or he became corrupted and is Primordus the one who want stole others dragon powers for is profit.
   B) Or Dragons/Gods can use the same energy and the theory of the relation between ED and Gods is right.Then Abaddon/DSD make sense and also this options don’t exclude the theory of Balthazar became corrupted as i pointed during all my posts.
2. You presuppouse that only part of the Desolation was rised, but as i post before the wiki seems very clear with "the Crystal Sea’s floor rose and created the Crystal Desert and the Desolation. " Why they don’t wrote “and part of the Desolation”?
3. You put the GoH far of GoT by convenience (without knowledge) but if i do it i’m wrong. @Kossage has a good point here, making possible the 2 locations very near, each other.
   Also, let me explain what i ask you that: first you said that “abaddon’s make the RoT looks like Elona” (when i defend the corruption as tentacles) and then i ask you “why Abaddon (God of Water and Secrets) fill his own domain with sand (and a desert look like)? (remember that lyssa take the water after Nightfall events)” Is like you’re saying that will be normal if Balthazar fullfill his domain with peacefull people.
4. i can accept that the “ring” over that hole is the earth but what is for you the great white hole in the cinematic? I point a kind of “vortex” as a part of The All mechanism that make posible a secure form to share that energy.

Your mockup is the same think i was thinking you said, but you mess the lands at your will (elona map):

• The Desolation is a part of elona (the part where was the Vortex to RoT at same height of Vabbi in both maps) and extends (as we saw in the full world map you post after) to Orr, but you put Elona at southeast.
• [url=https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Ronjok]Marga Coast as ronjok village being,[url] was in the southwest coast of Elona (south of the Desolation) but you put it at the east of the desolation.
• Vabbi at north of Elona when Vabbi is part of Elona.

Then, said that I think Crystal Sea was more like this mockup: http://s2.subirimagenes.com/imagen/previo/thump_9789742crystal-sea.png

Luindu.2418:

-snip-

1. The gods didn’t “give” any magic. Like I said, the GWW only talks about lore as known in GW1, but in GW2 it was learned that the story we knew from GW1 about the “gift of magic” was false. The “gift of magic” was just releasing magic which was in the Bloodstone the Seers created – magic which the Seers had taken from the world.
   I never said gods cannot use Tyrian magic – just that dragons cannot seem to use divine magic (as proven by the fact Balthazar stood in front of an army of magic-consuming destroyers and Primordus itself before activating the machine; as shown with the Divine Fire of Season 2 which warded off mordrem; as implied with Forgotten magic and Foefire magic, both hinted to be tied to the divine, being immune to dragon corruption and the former even able to revert corruption to some degree).
2. I never said anything of that. I said the Desolation was not risen, because it was already above sea level. Further, the mountains are not part of the Desolation – this seems to be your misunderstanding, perhaps.
   Why is it “created the Crystal Desert and the Desolation”? Because it did create the Desolation, but it did not raise it. It turned a verdant coastline into a sulfurous wasteland, thus creating the Desolation.
3. Perhaps you meant the “Mouth of Torment”: https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/The_Mouth_of_Torment which is vastly different from the Gate of Torment ?
   The Gate of Torment isn’t even on the world of Tyria, so yes, it is indeed very very far away.

Luindu.2418:

Also, let me explain what i ask you that: first you said that “abaddon’s make the RoT looks like Elona” (when i defend the corruption as tentacles) and then i ask you “why Abaddon (God of Water and Secrets) fill his own domain with sand (and a desert look like)? (remember that lyssa take the water after Nightfall events)” Is like you’re saying that will be normal if Balthazar fullfill his domain with peacefull people.

I seriously do not understand what you’re saying.

Abaddon’s realm – the Realm of Torment – has no sand in it… There is no water either.

Abaddon may be the “god of water” but he never had a ownership of a location that was full of water, nor did he ever fill said hypothetical location with sand (nor did anyone else). Nightfallen Jahai nor the Nightfallen Garden are not full of sand.

Luindu.2418:

1. i can accept that the “ring” over that hole is the earth but what is for you the great white hole in the cinematic? I point a kind of “vortex” as a part of The All mechanism that make posible a secure form to share that energy.

Great white hole? You mean the golden globe? That is Tyria.

Luindu.2418:

Your mockup is the same think i was thinking you said, but you mess the lands at your will (elona map):

• The Desolation is a part of elona (the part where was the Vortex to RoT at same height of Vabbi in both maps) and extends (as we saw in the full world map you post after) to Orr, but you put Elona at southeast.
• [url=https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Ronjok]Marga Coast as ronjok village being,[url] was in the southwest coast of Elona (south of the Desolation) but you put it at the east of the desolation.
• Vabbi at north of Elona when Vabbi is part of Elona.

I did not mess up anything. I think you’re misinterpreting things greatly – look again. Most of Elona – including Marga Coast – is off the map to the south (like I said, I did not go south far enough for proper use in this discussion). I do not know why you’re saying Ronjok is “east of the Desolation” in that map – it’s not on the map at all (I actually forgot about including Marga Coast when I made the map).. Vabbi is off the map to the east. The Primeval Kings only began to move north in 29 AE.

Until then, the Elonian nation was south of the Crystal Sea (and did not even go into Vabbi at that point in time – again, they did not spread north into Vabbi until 29 AE, just like with the Desolation).

I know Anet needed a reason to send us to the crystal desert, but I’m going to throw this out there anyway.

Why does Balthazar need to go after an elder dragon specifically when there are still 4 bloodstones scattered about Tyria, just waiting to get blown to bits by a vengeful god. I mean, Balthazar is probably stronger than Kralkatorrik at this point, after absorbing the magic of one bloodstone, and most of the magic from Jormag and Primordus. But the other bloodstones seem like easier targets to me. Perhaps he still can’t extract bloodstone magic on his own, despite being one of the gods that created them? And he was only able to absorb the magic from the bloodstone in bloodstone fen because the white mantle had been tampering with it for years?

Maybe he knows that killing one more dragon would push Tyria past the point of no return, and simply wants to destroy it…for reasons…I got nothing.

Dragons’ magic is more powerful than Bloodstone’s.

Balthazar took one of them but it was not enough to rebuild his lost powers. It turned everybody’s crazy but Balthazar is not changed in any ways.

Anyway one of the Bloodstones was destroyed in Arah (path 4).

So chasing after some artifacts would be stupid. Balthazar did 2 things who made easier his way to rebuild his powers- he consumed the bloodstone and gained the respect of White Mantle.

Balthazar said (just after consuming some Jormag and Primordus’ magic) that "he is feeling much better" so that shows Bloodstone wasn’t enough.

BTW the another dragons consumed both Mordremoth’s and Zhaitan’s powers so they are even more powerful than when they last stirred. Kralkatorrik is such giantic dragon but I am sure after consuming the magic of the others he is much bigger and he contains much more magic than before.

Look at Primordus in GW1 and in LS3- he is much, much, much bigger than in GW1.

Mordemoth’s magic and influence were really big- Mordremoth was the whole Maguuma Jungle and his powers spread even far away from his domain!! It reached to Dragonbrand in Ascalon!!

Zhaitan’s army reached Tarnished Coast, Kryta and more regions.

Imagine if Destiny’s Edge would kill Kralkatorrik... If they would then other Dragons would awake and Tyria would never handle it. But it happened now! We killed 2 Dragons and see what happened- we are in the dead end.. Look how disasterous it was. Now suddenly we must PROTECT THEM!! Because if another dragon dies all life on Tyria will be destroyed.

Now you see that Bloodstone’s magic is nothing when you compare it with Dragons’.

I don’t remember a bloodstone being destroyed during arah P4. I remember destroying a small bloodstone shard.

If the entire arah bloodstone was destroyed, why wasn’t the cursed shore turned into a smoldering crater like bloodstone fen? I mean, Balthazar absorbed most of the explosion and it still devastated the landscape.

I get that an elder dragon>one bloodstone in terms of magic. But surely 5 bloodstones>one elder dragon, even after absorbing magic from two others. Keep in mind Aurene took the lion’s share of mordremoth’s magic, and I’m assuming zhaitan’s magic was fairly evenly spread across the other 5 dragons at the time.

Edit: I feel like the disconnect between primordus’ appearance in GW1 vs GW2 is simply because of different art teams working on them, and Anet not really caring about consistency as long as it looks cool. Besides, the only part of primordus we actually get to see was its face…I kind of feel like the art team whipped it up in a week without looking at assets from GW1, because they needed to ship it out as quickly as possible.

Bloodstone Fen’s bloodstone was also the Shard. I didn’t make myself clean. I meant just the shards are nothing when you compare it with Dragons’ magic.

in Path 4 we found the shard weakened because of Risen’s influence. Also it is likely that Zhaitan consumed most of the power so the magic of this shard was released when Zhaitan died. And we found this shard totally weakened so when we destroyed it then nothing bad happened.

“The Bloodstone Shard is the largest shard kept in Arah after the original Bloodstone’s shattering. Unlike other, smaller, shards it was left in place by the Risen forces. It can be encountered when following Randall Greyston in his explorable path of the Ruined City of Arah.”~ Wiki.

So the other small pieces of this shard could be found just after killing the corrupted Priests. So perhaps they were also Bloodstone-crazed. But the bloodstone was corrupted by Zhaitan so this is why they served him.

There was one Bloodstone who blew apart in Abaddon’s Mouth volcano into 5 pieces- we and Zhaitan destroyed one, White Mantle and Balthazar destroyed second one.

So if we are lucky the other 3 are untouched. But one of them is known to be in the Shiverpeaks so Jormag is likely using it to keep himself powerful. Other 2 (If I am not wrong) are remaining unknown.

Quarktastic.1027:

Why does Balthazar need to go after an elder dragon specifically when there are still 4 bloodstones scattered about Tyria, just waiting to get blown to bits by a vengeful god. I mean, Balthazar is probably stronger than Kralkatorrik at this point, after absorbing the magic of one bloodstone, and most of the magic from Jormag and Primordus.

TL;DR the five Bloodstones are smaller in amounts of magic compared to Elder Dragons, and Balthazar is not one of patience.

He doesn’t seem to be stronger than Kralkatorrik either, otherwise he wouldn’t need an army. He didn’t use one when bringing the machine right before Primordus.

And he didn’t absorb most of the magic from Jormag and Primordus – it seemed more that he was just skimming off a bit from both. Otherwise they likely would have had smaller beams leaving the machine after entering (the beams looked largely the same going in and leaving).

Quarktastic.1027:

Perhaps he still can’t extract bloodstone magic on his own, despite being one of the gods that created them? And he was only able to absorb the magic from the bloodstone in bloodstone fen because the white mantle had been tampering with it for years?

The gods didn’t create the Bloodstone, the Seers did – albeit from “divine resources”. If the White Mantle tampering with the Bloodstone could allow Balthazar to absorb it, he could just tamper with then absorb the others the same way.

@ Arden, the “five bloodstones” are HUGE. They’re the size of large buildings. The one in Arah Seer path was not even the size of a human. It was not one of the five Bloodstones.

Further, the Shard in Arah was never indicated to be weakened, by any means. The risen used the five fist-sized shards to empower themselves, but none of the Bloodstones were ever drained (all indication shows that Bloodstones are invisible to the Elder Dragons magic detection/consumption, given how Zhaitan was near two large chunks, and Mordremoth near two as well – and not a one was touched). The High Priests were not Bloodstone-Crazed either.

While it’s true the five Bloodstones are not powerful enough to compare to an Elder Dragon, they do have a ton of magic in them (the Bloodstone Fen’s explosion was going to wipe out Lion’s Arch if not for Balthazar, according to Almorra – that’s over half of Central Tyria wiped out).

Arden.7480:

There was one Bloodstone who blew apart in Abaddon’s Mouth volcano into 5 pieces- we and Zhaitan destroyed one, White Mantle and Balthazar destroyed second one.

So if we are lucky the other 3 are untouched. But one of them is known to be in the Shiverpeaks so Jormag is likely using it to keep himself powerful. Other 2 (If I am not wrong) are remaining unknown.

Uh, no. You should read up on Bloodstone lore again, you’re greatly misunderstanding.

The original singular Bloodstone was split in Arah – the five fist-sized chunks and the one human-sized chunk is from that splitting, as Randall said the division wasn’t perfect.

Then the five largest pieces were thrown in Abaddon’s Mouth – eventually the volcano erupted, sending those five large pieces out. One fell right back into the caldera, another landed in the Southern Shiverpeaks (in that small unexplored area between Sparkfly and Lornar’s Pass, roughly), and a third landed in Bloodstone Fen. We do not know where the other two are.

Only one of the five Bloodstones – the Maguuma Bloodstone in Bloodstone Fen one – was destroyed.

Forgot this bit and previous post too long to add onto:

Arden.7480:

BTW the another dragons consumed both Mordremoth’s and Zhaitan’s powers so they are even more powerful than when they last stirred. Kralkatorrik is such giantic dragon but I am sure after consuming the magic of the others he is much bigger and he contains much more magic than before.

Look at Primordus in GW1 and in LS3- he is much, much, much bigger than in GW1.

Mordemoth’s magic and influence were really big- Mordremoth was the whole Maguuma Jungle and his powers spread even far away from his domain!! It reached to Dragonbrand in Ascalon!!

Uh, just want to say a few things about this…

Firstly, Primordus’ growth is never attributed to the amount of magic consumed – no Elder Dragon is said to physical grow with more magic. Only imps seem to do that. Anet even hinted that “what we saw in GW1” was not Primordus because “they never said that” (which is a big fat lie / retcon if they go with that – they did many, many times say that statue was Primordus; much more arguable to say he covered himself with molten rock as a bit of a “battle armor” or something).

Secondly, Mordremoth was not “the whole Maguuma Jungle” – his physical body was the Mouth of Mordremoth seen in-game. His vines, which are corruption he can telepathically control – spread throughout the jungle. That’s what the NPCs meant when they said “he is the jungle” – not that he actually was the jungle, but that due to his domain of mind he is practically inseparable from his corruption, which are the vines spread throughout the jungle and beyond.

Arden.7480:

Imagine if Destiny’s Edge would kill Kralkatorrik… If they would then other Dragons would awake and Tyria would never handle it.

The other dragons – sans Mordremoth – were already awake and active…

Arden.7480:

Because if another dragon dies all life on Tyria will be destroyed.

Now you see that Bloodstone’s magic is nothing when you compare it with Dragons’.

You make it sound like it’s the dragons’ magic which will kill the world. Technically, it may be just clashing opposite energies against each other for all we know. It may also just be because the Elder Dragons are tied to the All – and the amount of magic doesn’t matter so much as The All being in balance does.

Also, technically, “the Bloodstones’ magic” is the exact same as “the Dragons’ magic” – the difference is merely where it is located, and how much there is in that location.

Oh right. I misunderstood this “large stones”. I complicated everything and I just want to ask one question to you: Is only one Bloodstone destroyed or 2?

Also I was not right with that not equality of bloodstones and dragons’ magic. It looks like they are powerful like hell.

I’ll know for the future so thanks for make me clear in that matter.

To be honest,i would like to see a fight, yes physical fight between Balthazar and Kralkatorrik. Since Kralkatorrik is the largest ED, i guess the battle between them, will devastate the entire Crystal Desert.
Because if we will go conventional against Kralkatorrik (much like on Mordremoth) it will be a lame story.

“Kralkatorrik remained in the northern Crystal Desert for roughly ten years, being among the forces preventing movement into Elona for all except the Order of Whispers. Recently, it flew off again, moving southwest towards Vabbi and extending its Dragonbrand.”

I wouldn’t be surprised if Balthazar thread would end in PoF story. I think Balthazar is only building his forces in the Crystal Desert. Then he will go straight to Kralkatorrik. Kralkatorrik is huge and Balthazar knows right about it. Also as the good villain he deserves to be really good character for the future story. I am glad he is not like Scarlet and he is planning everything so perfectly. Everything was perfect until our characters complicated his plans to be the greatest character in Tyria. I really hope he will not die.. I want Balthazar to play the huge role in future releases

I find it funny how unsupported assumptions are made commonplace somehow.

Nothing ever calls Kralkatorrik “the largest Elder Dragon” – this is 100% player supposition based on the sizes of Kralkatorrik, Primordus, and what was incorrectly thought to be Jormag in Eye of the North. However, even Primordus got a massive size upgrade in Season 3 (big enough to make him dwarf Zhaitan and Mordremoth the way they dwarf dragons like Tequatl and Shadow of the Dragon).

@Arden: Only one has been destroyed to player knowledge, as I said.

Balthazar is raising an army because Kralkatorrik also has an army. Plus, now that we’ve gotten wise to his plans, he would rightly anticipate interference from our newly formed guild. He could very well be stronger than Kralkatorrik, but not strong enough to kill Kralkatorrik while also fending off an army of branded and our character/Dragon’s watch.

Either way, I’m expecting a very one dimensional ending to this story, like we got with every GW2 story so far. At the end of PoF, Balthazar will be dead, Taimi will magically figure out how to put Kralkatorrik back to sleep, and someone (perhaps Menzies) will become the new human god of war after absorbing the rest of Balthazar’s power.

One question that doesn’t seem to have been raised which perhaps should have been:

Does Balthazar even know where the other Bloodstones are?

The bloodstones were scattered by the eruption after the Exodus, after all, and the gods may not be omniscient (although, admittedly, Balthazar does seem to be getting pretty good information in S3). It’s possible that part of the reason Balthazar hasn’t gone for other bloodstones is because he doesn’t know where they are… or at least is uncertain enough that he thinks going after dragons is a better gamble.

Another possibility is he knew full well and has already absorbed them, but that wasn’t enough. The Bloodstone Fen bloodstone exploded because of White Mantle tampering – it’s possible that Balthazar could have drained the others without causing such destruction.

It’s so hard to say what happened to Balthazar, it’s harder to say what he was doing before absorbing Bloodstone Fen’s bloodstone.

Lyssa’s mirror intrigues me. I can’t wait to know how he got it.

I am sure Balthazar won’t be killed easily, I think he will not be killed anyway.

That was kinda great when his sword smashed us in the volcano. I hope it won’t be the sugar story with the happy end. It must end bad.

That was what can happen if we will fight alone with some friends.

This is what must happen if we want to defeat Balthazar: the other Gods must return.

And it’s so likely as never before. Especially because Balthazar wants to be the only God so the Gods must involve themselves into Tyria’s matters again, as in Nightfall.

That’s also interesting he wants to be the only God- how does he imagine to kill 5 other Gods? What did the Gods do to him? How did he get the mirror?

I can’t wait to know the answers that only Balthazar can answer.

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Off topic. We will get 5 huge maps, I heard the interview with Story team and they said that the story will be much longer than HoT’s. They also revealed that Kasmeer will especially be interested in the matter of Gods- nothing surprising but at least it’s confirmed.

I think it will look like LS3 episodes- 1 chapter in the first instance, then some discovering and doing some story quests on the map and then the last chapter who announces the next episode, then in the 2nd map the same and on and on, but I expect something more in the last map, perhaps 1-2 more chapters.

So I predict we’ll have 10-12 chapters+15-17 story quests+some additional elements like diaries of the villagers/enemies/friends+normal dialogues.

I hope there will be more chapters than 12, but it is most likely. Anyway I really hope we will get good story with breathtaking ending.

There is a theory floating around that the mirror was in the reliquaries, and Balthazar picked it up during his visit.

I’m not sure I’m convinced by this, however. The evidence suggests that Balthazar only visited the reliquaries once and that was after he had adopted (and possibly after he had lost?) the Lazarus disguise.

Dialogue does indicate he appeared only once. Further, he brought the mercenaries with him – so this was after he appeared as Lazarus to the White Mantle. Even if he could have somehow replaced that aspect before his appearance, his visit was still after he had the mirror.

draxynnic.3719:

There is a theory floating around that the mirror was in the reliquaries, and Balthazar picked it up during his visit.

I’m not sure I’m convinced by this, however. The evidence suggests that Balthazar only visited the reliquaries once and that was after he had adopted (and possibly after he had lost?) the Lazarus disguise.

That is an interesting theory. But I am also not convinced by this. It looks stupid if we imagine it: “I, Balthazar came back to Tyria, because somebody dimmed my light (puff the lamp off), I went to Orr first and I was searching for some things, so I stole the mirror in the Lyssa’s reliquary and I remembered the lesson from my school that the mirrors can be used to disguise as somebody else, yes I fought all the time and do you think I really care about it? Oh and I had a wonderful idea to disguise myself into Lazarus- ohh my genius- never fails me (Facepalm).”

It doesn’t make sense… He went to Orr then somehow he found the mirror, used to disguise himself and suddenly he appeared during the Xera’s experiment then he suddenly consumed the Bloodstone, I think he stole the mirror from Lyssa, or at least she gave it to him.

One Path Ends “said” that Balthazar appeared there, I am sure that the people would notice him if he would search every reliquary in Siren’s Landing, there were many curious Sylvari, ancient queens and kings, but they all were surprised that he appeared there in the last episode (correct me if I am not right).

If it would be Caithe I’d be surprised at all. She is a… shadow- as she said. But the God who as people theorize visited Orr and was searching for some items would get unnoticed that’d be stupid.

It must have the connection to Lyssa herself, at least I hope it has.

I think in that theory, he went to the reliquaries for the explicit purpose of getting the mirror for disguising himself. Which honestly makes more sense than getting the mirror from Lyssa (willingly or not from her standpoint) before he should have been logically knowing of the Lazarus situation. But per reasons I stated, we know he didn’t get the mirror from the reliquaries unless he got it years ago as he brought the mercenaries with him to Siren’s Landing.

So most likely, he didn’t get the mirror intending to use it to disguise as Lazarus, but had disguised as other individuals first.

Andsome people in Siren’s Landing did see Balthazar:

<Character name>: Sorry to be abrupt, but I’m looking for Balthazar or the Eye of Janthir, a floating…
Firstborn Dagonet: Oh, we know what it is. They’ve both been here, but you cannot follow where they went.

Queen Yasamin: My lord Balthazar has returned! (laugh) I am overjoyed!

Curiously, King Zoran at Dwayna’s reliquary did not see Balthazar – so we know he passed by Melandru’s reliquary heading obviously to Abaddon’s, and we know he visited his own reliquary. It’s unclear if he went to Grenth’s or Lyssa’s, but did not go to Dwayna’s.

We know he went into Abaddon’s reliquary to hide the aspect of Lazarus, to prevent it in being used against him (and he tampered with the defenses of it). However, we do not know why he visited his own reliquary or if he did or didn’t take anything from Abaddon’s reliquary.

Most likely, he took what he needed to create the Forged, explaining why we don’t see them before PoF – he wasn’t able to turn folks into Forged just yet at that point.