Taimi, Jory and Kas and Offencive

Taimi, Jory and Kas and Offencive

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Posted by: CaptainVanguard.4925

CaptainVanguard.4925

First allow me to be someone that says the following before being bashed:

I Like, Jory and Kas, a lot, and hell I even like Taimi.

The voice acting is good, the story is decent and I did enjoy the jory/kas romance build up.

But:

I also have to say that these characters all three of them and also Braham as well, come across as offensive to me personally.

How are these characters offensive?

The simple truth is that I am mentally disabled IRL, and I have also got a physical handicap called Tendonitis that has a vaguely similar condition to Taimi’s which honestly I do not like being represented in a video game no matter how tempting it is to do so.

Some like the idea of their disability and personal standing being represented, but I myself do not like them at all because at the core of its universe guild wars is a FANTASY setting where by the problems of REAL LIFE should NOT apply to people in the same way it does in a virtual game that has no relevance on reality.

So whats the problem then:

Taimi is a disabled Stereotype

Your going by the idea that Taimi is disabled so we have to pity her, this actually is increasingly offensive to people that “are” disabled who despise being pitied in the first place on account we try very hard to cope with our day to day disabilities and the last thing we want, is to be reminded they exist in a world outside the real one.

I don’t need a character to remind me that I have problems I cant overcome without finding alternatives, and the fact she has a Golem to fix it actually makes it worse because by that definition your giving false hope to the physically impaired by making the character into a paragon.

Its downright inconsiderate.

Braham is a feminist view on males

Braham, hurts me, even looking at him I am treated as a man like an idiot being reminded that this guy is incompetent at anything because all he does is think with his muscle.

Have you ever considered some men actually don’t “have” muscle to think with and thus have to depend on other aspects of their abilities, or the fact we have the capacity to “think” with a brain.

This form of writing is forced dialogue to make a character seem like a stereotypical depiction of a gender, its the jar jar binx syndrome that made JJB so hated by the star wars fans.

You don’t get to do that to men and not expect backlash for it.

Jory and Kas relationship is enjoyable, but forced

When it built up to the kiss it was something special, now, unfortunately it looses its flare because we no longer have a purpose to serve other than to remind you that “aww we have a lesbian couple in our game”.

That, is a bad way to tell a plot.

If you want good story writing remember that your characters are “characters” in a “fictional” world where reality has no relevance or meaning, bringing political ideas of what people represent in a game is just a bad way to make a point.

I, hope, that the characters in future will slowly shift out of their comfort zones into more edgy, daring and interesting progressions that don’t just keep them stereotyped to their cliche but actually change the very nature of their persona.

Why cant we have a darker Taimi? Why cant Jory and Kas relationship have problems? Why does Braham have to act like an idiot when he could clearly have some development from some wisdom through Eir.

I want to see some “genuine” character development from the GMPC’s that shows they have changed by their experiences and that those changes will guide the direction they take from now on.

I don’t, want to see forced ideologies and politics make its way into a fantasy world, where they don’t belong.

Stop making a statement about life, and start making a statement about Tyria.

I want to know what Tyria’s world is like, not what Tyria’s connection to Earth is.

Because as far as I am concerned, it should have none what so ever.

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Posted by: Sytherek.7689

Sytherek.7689

As a significantly handicapped person —

I totally disagree. Completely. Absolutely. Disagree.

It’s time we stopped treating the disabled as invisible.
It’s time we stopped patronizing the disabled.

Pretending the disabled don’t exist in a “fantasy” setting is ridiculous.

ANet has done a wonderful job of integrating a disabled character into the current story. She is imperfect, sometimes bitter, but fighting back against her disability. She is refreshingly realistic without being preachy. Her presence adds an interesting aspect to “heroes.”

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Posted by: Balsco.3682

Balsco.3682

Since when are we given the idea that Taimi needs pity? The only reason the other characters may seem protective of her in the first place is because she is 13 years old, not because she is disabled, where did you even get this idea from, to me it seems like you’re just trying to find a reason to be “offended”, Taimi is a character in her own right regardless of her disability and the other characters never treat her like she needs pity.

Your idea of feminism must be somewhat twisted, regardless, Braham doesn’t act the way he acts because he is a “feminist view on males”, it’s because he is a teenager and a Norn, and it’s canon that Norn aren’t as bright as humans on average, and also value action a lot, additionally, Braham is a guardian, so it makes sense that he would want to charge in to protect his friends instead of thinking up “intelligent strategies” when it’s obvious there are people better suited to do so in his group.

You thinking that characters are “characters” and that reality has no relevance or meaning is ridiculous, the reasons we as people can associate with characters is because to some extent we consider that they are people.

How do you expect Braham to gain wisdom from Eir really? Eir was by any human standards a horrible mother(maybe not by norn ones), and it’s even implied multiple times that Braham’s respect for her is not big, he doesn’t respect her as a mother, and why would he? She gave birth to him and left him.

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Posted by: CaptainVanguard.4925

CaptainVanguard.4925

I don’t disagree with your statements about treating people as invisible, but that to me feels like something that should be dealt with in the real world, not stated and pointed out in a virtual one.

My biggest fundamental dislike for Taimi is that while she is a pretty hyper scarlet fangirl which can get quite tedious too after a while, her biggest flaw is that shes supposed to be some perfect, mental prodigy that’s what, 5 years old?

Edit: I did not know she was 13, but even then she seems too know it all.

While being handi-capped with a disability?

If were talking realistic then a prodigy can only know so much, making her seem mega-smart as if one day shes going to be the most intellectually advanced Asura of all time makes her fall under the “Mary Sue” level of believability instead of the realistic.

Id have accepted it if she knew about as much as we did, but every little detail she blurts out suggests shes some kind of mega know it all kid that seems surprisingly “non” handi-capped for someone that’s supposed to be a cripple.

Seeing her limp into Scarlets lab slowly and waddlingly just made me cringe irl as it reminded me how helpless I am as a disabled person, it didn’t comfort me, it hurt me, and it left me feeling disturbed A-net wants to use that as a point of reference when its not even fair to do so.

I don’t dislike the character for the basis that shes a young child genius with a physical impediment.

I dislike the character because they are making a point of that to make her anything at all rather than advancing her in other directions that might advance her as a person, not as a political symbol.

When you use characters like that purely to make a point they are a child and therefore you need to care about them, you have failed in your story writing to explain the most fundamental point:

Why?

The day I actually have a mission to carry Taimi on my back to her Golem because they got separated is the day I will care.

Until then, it feels dumb to actually expect me to care about this character on the basis alone they cant walk properly.

Give me a game motivation, give me a story reason to actually feel like I have to help take care of this character and that she isn’t just “there” for the sake of being “there”.

Then, I will care.

Regarding Braham and Eir:

We need a story that focuses on showing that relationship and the struggle of mother and son to get to know each other rather than just giving them this vague reference then leaving it at that.

I appreciate that Braham is a teenager, that too is a relevant point, but even then his attitude is too predictable and not entirely believable since even Magnus as a tyke had a brain, and Knut too.

Norn aren’t bright? Not true, Jora evidenced that in GW1. Proud, arrogant and stubborn yes but not stupid, even Eir in the DE books had more brains than to just to retake the dragon minions alone.

(edited by CaptainVanguard.4925)

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Posted by: Facepunch.5710

Facepunch.5710

I’m not a handicapped or disabled person, but I’ll just say that I think Taimi is fantastic. I’ve never pitied her. In fact, I think she is probably one of the more impressive characters in the group, irrespective of her condition. It’s kind of great that they’ve put a character in the game that is not “impressive considering the handicap” but instead “impressive, and happens to be handicapped.”

Edit: In regard to Taimi’s intelligence being at Mary Sue level, keep in mind that in this fantasy world and in it the Asura are the cream of the brain crop. I don’t think there’s a problem with a 13 year old Asura prodigy displaying the level of insight and intellectual curiosity that Taimi does.

Please take your tinfoil hats off and be reasonable. ~ReginaB
This forum is a wretched hive of scum and villainy. ~DevilLordLaser

(edited by Facepunch.5710)

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Posted by: CaptainVanguard.4925

CaptainVanguard.4925

That is a good point Face, I suppose if you are to take it from the other side of the coin she is someone with interesting potential but I still think we need to be able to have more of a direct role in her potential and to be able to help develop it.

Again, the way Ive always treated char development is, its the person, not the problem.

It should focus more on them, not the things that happen to them but the way they react to those happenings.

However, I do feel that Taimi does occasionally act too… …I cant find the right word, but I doubt I’m the only one that feels this way about her attitude.

Suddenly shes out of scrappy and just casually waltzing around then acts like a nutjob around everything Scarlet related.

She may be a teen to her defense but… again, it seems forced.

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Posted by: Zomaarwat.3912

Zomaarwat.3912

>Some like the idea of their disability and personal standing being represented, but I myself do not like them at all because at the core of its universe guild wars is a FANTASY setting where by the problems of REAL LIFE should NOT apply to people in the same way it does in a virtual game that has no relevance on reality.

>the fact she has a Golem to fix it actually makes it worse because by that definition your giving false hope to the physically impaired by making the character into a paragon.

Careful, you’re tripping over yourself.
Also: physically crippled =/= mentally crippled

Over a year and the forum search is still broken = /

(edited by Zomaarwat.3912)

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Posted by: Sytherek.7689

Sytherek.7689

Wow. Captain Vanguard, you really are looking for problems with Taimi.

Taimi isn’t there to be taken care of or make a “statement”. She’s just there.

Also, it is not unusual or atypical for the “handicapped” to excel.

I know an young autistic woman very personally who is very autistic but a brilliant mathematician and artist.

Oh, and she plays GW2 brilliantly, beating jumping puzzles with precision and aplomb while slicing and dicing her way thru PvP.

She can’t handle social situations, has trouble reading, and is sometimes a very brittle personality… yet she doesn’t let any of that stop her from working on an advanced math degree.

The world has enough real hurt in it. Please don’t manufacture any.

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Posted by: Balsco.3682

Balsco.3682

I fail to see how Taimi is a political symbol, she has a degenerative disease that affects her motor functions, but is still a capable individual worthy of respect and care, that’s all there is to it really, if you don’t like Taimi that’s fine, I understand that you feel bitter about having a disability and seeing a character with a disability that has a means to go around said disability, but understand that most people like Taimi not because she is a child with a disability, but because she is a funny character with very interesting underlying depth.

I think we don’t need a story about Braham and Eir, their relationship is not a parental one, Braham lived through his entire infancy and most of his teenage years without any contact with his mother, he doesn’t want to have any at this point most likely anyway, would you want to talk to a “Mother” you never had any sort of relationship with? Eir failed as a mother and she knows that aswell, I bet she’s also aware that their relationship is beyond saving and will never become a parental one.

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Posted by: Kalavier.1097

Kalavier.1097

Also, Like how sometimes Norn can be ‘dumber’ then humans, Asura are, by all standards, far more intelligent then humans.

Taimi seems SUPER FREAKING SMART, but she’d around humans and Norn and charr, not other Asura.

Braham… why can’t people understand the concept of THERE ARE SIMPLE, DIRECT PEOPLE OUT THERE. They aren’t all dumb either, they just go with a simple, direct course of action over a fancy, thought-out one. In terms of fantasy, instead of picking the lock of a chest, Braham will smash the lock and be done with it.

I don’t see him as being forced in or representing all males at all. People need to stop shoving political labels and agendas on EVERYTHING.

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Posted by: AlphaDelilas.2873

AlphaDelilas.2873

You have so many issues that need to be dealt with by a professional. Not being said as an insult, you just seem to have problems that need working on.

First, fantasy needs to have realism to make it relatable. If there was nothing from the real world it would be dull and have no immersive properties. I, and many others, love how ANet has gone out of their way to make characters that many different people can relate to. Taimi is the first major disabled character I’ve gotten to play with in a game and she and the experience are brilliant. She is strong and independent and her disability has barely been mentioned by her or the other characters; it is a quirk, not a defining trait.

Second, she is not 5. She is in her teens, which you would have known if you paid attention. She has already been placed in one of the three colleges and obsesses over Scarlet because she sees beyond Scarlet’s madness and wants to write her dissertation on what Scarlet discovered. I have no clue where you are going with her being intelligent contraindicating a disability. She has a physical problem, not a mental one. Hell even at that having mental disabilities not preclude someone from being smart. If you are getting at it glorifying the disabled I would agree if she were any other race, but she is an Asura. An Asura with even a high human IQ would be considered dumb by the rest of their society. Asura are just insanely smart.

Third, where the hell are you getting politics from?! I don’t even know where to begin with that bag of worms, especially given my scoleciphobia.

Fourth, you obviously did not play the EotM introduction LS. We already had to do things for Taimi because she couldn’t walk. We did not carry her because she refuses to be infantilized. Scruffy is the only assistance she needs, she built him specifically to help her with her disability and she does not wish to have anyone else do anything for her. In EotM Scruffy got damaged and she was having a bad day and could not walk and while Braham was there he was staying with her to make sure she was safe. That left the player to get the parts Taimi needed to fix Scruffy. We got the parts, gave them to Taimi, she fixed Scruffy, and all was good.

On to my own commentary: Taimi is beyond brilliant. The only time we’ve heard her talk about her disability was when we had to get the parts to fix Scruffy. Other than that moment she is treated as a normal teenage girl. Braham acts as a protective older brother and wants her to be safe at all times, but acquiesces, mostly at the others’ insistence, that she is enough of a grown up to do things on her own. She does everything that the others do, even fight, with the assistance of Scruffy and no one else. Hell she even built Scruffy on her own.

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Posted by: Kalavier.1097

Kalavier.1097

Second, she is not 5. She is in her teens, which you would have known if you paid attention. She has already been placed in one of the three colleges and obsesses over Scarlet because she sees beyond Scarlet’s madness and wants to write her dissertation on what Scarlet discovered.

Well, partly the reason for her obsessing over Scarlet (or the entire reason in a sense? Was that she was very interested and liked how Scarlet didn’t accept restrictions placed on her, Scarlet went and learned what she wanted when she wanted. IIRC, Taimi mentioned once that she feels like she’s in the wrong college.

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Posted by: LanfearShadowflame.3189

LanfearShadowflame.3189

Taimi is a disabled Stereotype

Your going by the idea that Taimi is disabled so we have to pity her, this actually is increasingly offensive to people that “are” disabled who despise being pitied in the first place on account we try very hard to cope with our day to day disabilities and the last thing we want, is to be reminded they exist in a world outside the real one.

I don’t need a character to remind me that I have problems I cant overcome without finding alternatives, and the fact she has a Golem to fix it actually makes it worse because by that definition your giving false hope to the physically impaired by making the character into a paragon.

Its downright inconsiderate.

I have to disagree with you on a lot of points here.

Tiami does not inspire me to pity her. I find that I tend to admire her quite a bit for her personal strength and ingenuity. She does not let the fact that she has this disease hold her down. She charges forward (sometimes recklessly) and lives her life. She doesn’t want our pity, and I’m pretty sure if my character started doing that, she’d conk me on the head with her golem’s fist. When she hits an obstacle, she finds a way to overcome it, the creation of her golem is a perfect example of that. She’s not letting the disease stop her, and that is very worth admiring in a person.

There are too many in real life that do pull the ‘pity me, I’m not right’ card. Too many that think they can’t live thier life or be their own person because they have a disease or a handicap. This fictional character is an inspiration that proves otherwise.

Braham is a feminist view on males

Braham, hurts me, even looking at him I am treated as a man like an idiot being reminded that this guy is incompetent at anything because all he does is think with his muscle.

Have you ever considered some men actually don’t “have” muscle to think with and thus have to depend on other aspects of their abilities, or the fact we have the capacity to “think” with a brain.

This form of writing is forced dialogue to make a character seem like a stereotypical depiction of a gender, its the jar jar binx syndrome that made JJB so hated by the star wars fans.

You don’t get to do that to men and not expect backlash for it.

Braham is a typical Norn. Even females (outside of Eir, who is not quite like other Norn) are portrayed as ‘hit first, ask questions later.’ It’s the type of people his race are. It was more obvious in GW1, but you can still see it in the conversation with the females in this game. They are great hunters, fighters. It has nothing to do with his being ‘male.’ Jora was pretty much the exact same way.

Jory and Kas relationship is enjoyable, but forced

When it built up to the kiss it was something special, now, unfortunately it looses its flare because we no longer have a purpose to serve other than to remind you that “aww we have a lesbian couple in our game”.

Actually, I see them acting a lot like any typical couple in a ‘newly formed’ relationship. The rose colored glasses are on full blast atm. Is it corny? Yes. Is it cheesy? Yes. Is it sometimes uncomfortable for the outside party to watch? Oh yeah. However, this is no different than any other lovey dovey, just starting out couple either. They coo at each other, make the big eyes, try out a variety of pet names to see which ‘feel’ right, etc. It really doesn’t matter (much) that the world could be ending around them because, right now, all that exists (to them) is each other.

Why cant we have a darker Taimi?

So what you want is someone that is bitter because life gave them the short end of the stick? She’s just a little kid for gods sake. Applaud her vitality and vibrancy! I’m sorry, but it sounds like you’re the one that’s bitter because you weren’t born ‘normal.’

Why cant Jory and Kas relationship have problems?

They might yet, give them time. They only just started this relationship. Like I said before, it’s all rose colored glasses right now. Neither has faults they other can see until this start to fade. You want the relationship to grow, let it. Don’t rush it.

Why does Braham have to act like an idiot when he could clearly have some development from some wisdom through Eir.

Wisdom comes with time and age. Braham is young, and very typical Norn in his approach to life. (Not to mention he has issues with Eir) It doesn’t come from having a sit down with your parent. If it did, our own kids would learn from our mistakes, never make their own, and have perfect lives. Personally, I’ve never seen it work that way…. so it not working that way in game in much more realistic.

Don’t look at me like that. Whatever you’ve heard, it’s probably not true.

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Posted by: CaptainVanguard.4925

CaptainVanguard.4925

I did actually do EOTM primarily because I wanted to know more about Taimi but since I already pointed out that I liked the character in the first place I don’t quite think people understand my POV.

ALLOW ME TO REPHRASE THIS

I don’t HATE Taimi, I don’t HATE Braham, I don’t HATE, Jory or Kas.

What I DISLIKE is the fact these characters portrayals are so FORCED based on their cliche which, being someone that has read MANY fantasy books both from popular and non popular franchises, watched A LOT of ANIME both mainstream and non hardcore, played MANY RPGS both WESTERN (Dragon Age franchise, Kotor, Diablo, I could go on) and EASTERN (Final Fantasy, Valkyrie Profile) I can spot the tropes almost immediately.

Do they have to be original? No, could they be done in a less forced way, yes.

The problem is that these characters have grown on me, but that doesn’t mean I cant fault them for things “I” personally feel they have flaws in.

Am I alone in my POV? No, people have expressed to me before a love/hatred of the cast, and while I myself would like to say the only DE 2.0 member I actually dislike is Rox, the rest I only have flaws in because of what they are based on and made to be expressed as.

I am tired of people using expressionism to tell a story, did Guild Wars one need lesbians, dumb teenage men or disabled kids to make a good plot? No.

It didn’t have any of them and it still told a great storyline.

In fact it wasn’t until eye of the north we saw the ugly head of stereotyping peer itself on us because they wanted a cliche character (Gwen) in their universe (Emo Teen Angst Girl 101).

The problem is that good story doesn’t need characters that have to be predictable or done before.

A good story and because of that, good character development, focuses on the characters you now know and gives them flesh to the bone, it lets us know, what kind of person they are.

The great and the terrible.

The moment you make a char flawless or overly flawed you loose the point of development.

This is why Sakura in Naruto is such a hated character by the Naruto Fanbase, or why you can shun Robert Jordan for making plots that take forever to get to the point.

Do I like wheel of time? Yes, do I like Naruto, kinda.

But I don’t have to like it flawlessly if I find something that gripes me.

So I don’t hate the cast, I hate the way they are portrayed without any flicker so far of major transitional development.

Hopefully in Episode 2 onwards they will have genuine char events that alter the way they act and think over time, but for now, they remain unchanged.

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Posted by: Morsus.5106

Morsus.5106

I don’t hate Braham, and I actually really liked him back during Flame & Frost. “Oh, we’re so dead.” made me laugh pretty hard. I’d like him to think a little more. The Wiki page says he has Raven’s wit, but since Flame & Frost he feels like he’s lost all of that wit.

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Posted by: Stooperdale.3560

Stooperdale.3560

My father was in a wheelchair from before I was born and had less mobility than Tiami, particularly as he got older. I’m sure however he’d like to be remembered for all the things he could do rather than the things he could not do. This is generally how I view Tiami. Her disability does not define her. She is an over excitable scientific whiz kid. Her disability is there, yes, but she tries to find a way to mange it.

I know full well that disability is not the same for everyone, and that some disabilities cannot be managed with mechanics and technology. However I don’t see a problem in showing a young kid who can find ways to manage and find her own identity.

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Posted by: Kalavier.1097

Kalavier.1097

Hell, about ‘disabilities’… I just recently watched a video of a guy who (I think) had down syndrome, and he owns his own successful restaurant.

That’s like Taimi. She WILL reach her goals and be known. Her legs won’t slow her down and she will beat obstacles infront of her.

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Posted by: Balsco.3682

Balsco.3682

In that case, CaptainVanguard, all you want is a bit more character development, that’s fine, but keep in mind that each Living Story Update is like a small manga chapter, so far we’ve had like what, less than 20? with many of them just introducing the characters first, and as such only the most recent ones promise any development, give it time.

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Posted by: Zaxares.5419

Zaxares.5419

Speaking for myself, I don’t find myself pitying Taimi at all. She has a disability, she found solutions to manage it. End of story. She’s smart, yes, but so is basically every Asura. Taimi may be smarter than the average Asura, but I don’t think she’s a genius prodigy. She talks about her accomplishments as basically something every progeny did in their youth.

I will agree that Braham does kind of fit into the “big dumb brute” stereotype, but then again, he’s a Norn. They’re generally not given to cerebral solutions; the whole “lemme just smash these crates” is basically what most Norn would do in that situation. It’s also important to remember that Braham’s still basically a teenager. He hasn’t got the kind of life experience other Norn like Eir or Knut Whitebear do, so he tends to charge in and ask questions later.

As for Marjory and Kasmeer, I’ve discussed this to death in other threads about them, and I really don’t feel like going into it all again. :P

I do want to mention that I DO get what you’re saying about not wanting attention to be spotlighted on disabilities though. When I was in university, I became friends with a disabled guy who had spina bifida. He told me once that the reason why he liked hanging out with me was because I never treated him any differently to anyone else. While I would do things like hold the door open for him when we went between buildings, I would do the same thing for other people. I neither pampered him nor looked down on him, and he really appreciated that.

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Posted by: Panites.6798

Panites.6798

Ahahaha got to find something to complain about. If you played the game as much as you invested into this complaint, you would find there were 2 gay couples prior to jory and kas.
And as for braham being offensive…… i find the fact that you are saying that no humans act like braham and that they all have to be complex and not think or do on instinct. As you said this is a fantasy world, not everything is YOUR fantasy it is multiple peoples ideas put into a game. Why do norns act like they do? Why do charrs act like they do? Because they do and thats that.

You also say why cant the couple have arguments…. maybe they do but why do they need to bring that into the situation when they are SAVING TYRIA? Did you read braham or any back stories of norns? Why are you trying to force what you think is right onto characters made by a company with people who have studied in these aspects.

I understand you are upset from many things but maybe you should stop worrying about things in life and start looking on the good side.
Like we dont have to see traeneahelelettucehead anymore, or that we have a new dragon coming, or even the fact that guild wars 2 was created and you have time to play it!!!!

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Posted by: Toasty.5014

Toasty.5014

All I hear is “Wah”

….
There’s no sugar coating this one; Suck it up butter-cup.

I don’t like the representation of traits I have within media and otherwise too. But that’s just how things are. Learn to live with it or just don’t partake in things that include it (when possible).

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Posted by: Celestina.2894

Celestina.2894

Taimi is a disabled Stereotype

Your going by the idea that Taimi is disabled so we have to pity her, this actually is increasingly offensive to people that “are” disabled who despise being pitied in the first place on account we try very hard to cope with our day to day disabilities and the last thing we want, is to be reminded they exist in a world outside the real one.

I don’t need a character to remind me that I have problems I cant overcome without finding alternatives, and the fact she has a Golem to fix it actually makes it worse because by that definition your giving false hope to the physically impaired by making the character into a paragon.

Its downright inconsiderate.

I have to disagree with you on a lot of points here.

Tiami does not inspire me to pity her. I find that I tend to admire her quite a bit for her personal strength and ingenuity. She does not let the fact that she has this disease hold her down. She charges forward (sometimes recklessly) and lives her life. She doesn’t want our pity, and I’m pretty sure if my character started doing that, she’d conk me on the head with her golem’s fist. When she hits an obstacle, she finds a way to overcome it, the creation of her golem is a perfect example of that. She’s not letting the disease stop her, and that is very worth admiring in a person.

There are too many in real life that do pull the ‘pity me, I’m not right’ card. Too many that think they can’t live thier life or be their own person because they have a disease or a handicap. This fictional character is an inspiration that proves otherwise.

Braham is a feminist view on males

Braham, hurts me, even looking at him I am treated as a man like an idiot being reminded that this guy is incompetent at anything because all he does is think with his muscle.

Have you ever considered some men actually don’t “have” muscle to think with and thus have to depend on other aspects of their abilities, or the fact we have the capacity to “think” with a brain.

This form of writing is forced dialogue to make a character seem like a stereotypical depiction of a gender, its the jar jar binx syndrome that made JJB so hated by the star wars fans.

You don’t get to do that to men and not expect backlash for it.

Braham is a typical Norn. Even females (outside of Eir, who is not quite like other Norn) are portrayed as ‘hit first, ask questions later.’ It’s the type of people his race are. It was more obvious in GW1, but you can still see it in the conversation with the females in this game. They are great hunters, fighters. It has nothing to do with his being ‘male.’ Jora was pretty much the exact same way.

Jory and Kas relationship is enjoyable, but forced

When it built up to the kiss it was something special, now, unfortunately it looses its flare because we no longer have a purpose to serve other than to remind you that “aww we have a lesbian couple in our game”.

Actually, I see them acting a lot like any typical couple in a ‘newly formed’ relationship. The rose colored glasses are on full blast atm. Is it corny? Yes. Is it cheesy? Yes. Is it sometimes uncomfortable for the outside party to watch? Oh yeah. However, this is no different than any other lovey dovey, just starting out couple either. They coo at each other, make the big eyes, try out a variety of pet names to see which ‘feel’ right, etc. It really doesn’t matter (much) that the world could be ending around them because, right now, all that exists (to them) is each other.

Why cant we have a darker Taimi?

So what you want is someone that is bitter because life gave them the short end of the stick? She’s just a little kid for gods sake. Applaud her vitality and vibrancy! I’m sorry, but it sounds like you’re the one that’s bitter because you weren’t born ‘normal.’

Why cant Jory and Kas relationship have problems?

They might yet, give them time. They only just started this relationship. Like I said before, it’s all rose colored glasses right now. Neither has faults they other can see until this start to fade. You want the relationship to grow, let it. Don’t rush it.

Why does Braham have to act like an idiot when he could clearly have some development from some wisdom through Eir.

Wisdom comes with time and age. Braham is young, and very typical Norn in his approach to life. (Not to mention he has issues with Eir) It doesn’t come from having a sit down with your parent. If it did, our own kids would learn from our mistakes, never make their own, and have perfect lives. Personally, I’ve never seen it work that way…. so it not working that way in game in much more realistic.

begins slow clap

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Posted by: Aerlen.5326

Aerlen.5326

“I am tired of people using expressionism to tell a story, did Guild Wars one need lesbians, dumb teenage men or disabled kids to make a good plot? No.”

So basically, you want all characters to be the same and not possess the individual quirks and traits that shape and even define the unique personalities every person has?

Sorry but from this disabled person, it sounds like you want able bodied straight smart men to tell all your stories and take any other portrayal way too seriously. No, GW2 doesn’t “need” lesbians, dumb teenagers, and disabled kids but they sure do add some much needed diversity. I happen to like a disabled female character who isn’t treated as worthless, unlike the way I’m treated in RL. It’s a nice fantasy. I like Braham for the dumb teen Norn that he is and, even as a feminist, I know that isn’t how men are. He has to grow as a person and I’m waiting to see that happen through the LS. And seriously? You know, goodness forbid Anet actually realize there are more than just heterosexuals in the world and that maybe they deserve a place in a fantasy world too. I can’t say I think Jory and Kas’ relationship will work out past the honeymoon stage but the fact that it’s there and not treated any differently than a straight romance is pretty cool. Gives me hope maybe I’ll see myself represented someday.

If you disagree, 90% of the gaming industry still caters to you. Just buy a PS4 or Xbox One and there you go.

~Tarnished Coast Pride~

Forever known as “that slow guardian who can’t jump worth crap”.

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Posted by: Thobek.1730

Thobek.1730

I find braham being the only male in the group being portrayed as a thick headed dunce and often the target of the jokes – offensive.

I understand what Anet are trying to do, try and cover all the political correct bases. Do we have lesbians? check, what about disabled? check… thick headed jock? braham covers that… next we’re going to see them attempt to covers all the races of the world like some horrible hybrid benetton advert.

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Posted by: Kain Francois.4328

Kain Francois.4328

@OP: Chronic illnesses are very common in real life, believe it or not. Just because a character suffers from believable disabilities doesn’t mean there is some political message or exploitation.

Furthermore, I am pretty sure there are worse representations in Guild Wars than Taimi’s character. For example, the Afflicted were actually a villainous take on “Proteus Syndrome”, yet I don’t expect ANET to think they were offending anyone.

Quite the contrary, whether it’s Taimi or the Afflicted, when you get right down to it, they’re just video game characters, and the explanations behind them are much more simple.

In truth, the biconics actually archetypes of the 5-man band:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FiveManBand

My point being, they’re just video game characters. Don’t over-politicize things, and don’t try to apply it to your own experiences either.

Taimi’s illness doesn’t define her, nor’ do most people actually pity her either. So why do people love Taimi so much? Because she’s relate-able, and she has a fun personality. She’s really a geeky little kid who obsesses over Scarlet like an otaku over anime. Watching her curious and mischievous antics are entertaining. Most people love her because of that, and it really is that simple. Taimi is a fun character with a nice personality.

I find braham being the only male in the group being portrayed as a thick headed dunce and often the target of the jokes – offensive.

If Braham is a dunce, then Kasmeer is a blond-headed bimbo. Luckily, this is incorrect.

Having played all the Living Story up until now, I’m not sure where people got the idea that Braham is a dunce, though. If anything, he’s more like the older-brother type, and somewhat fatherly.

(edited by Kain Francois.4328)

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Posted by: Cappi.9742

Cappi.9742

Then you could also ask why do we have races/skin color/politics if we could just skip it. Because it makes the world and people feel alive and varied. Personally I don’t feel THAT bad for Taimi about her legs, sure the fact that she won’t get so old is a bummer :/ But she can walk if she has to, has a golem to carry her, and usually prefers to just sit down and read anyway.

Also it’s not like ALL male characters are like Braham? That’s how most Norns act, male or female.

And Kasmeer + Majory feeling kind of forced because it’s a lesbian couple isn’t that true either, I feel most of the relationships in GW2 feel kind of cheesy and weird so this is no different just because of their homosexuality.

(edited by Cappi.9742)

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Posted by: Shiren.9532

Shiren.9532

ANet has done a wonderful job of integrating a disabled character into the current story. She is imperfect, sometimes bitter, but fighting back against her disability. She is refreshingly realistic without being preachy. Her presence adds an interesting aspect to “heroes.”

She’s not realistic because she has a magic battle golem. There is actually an interesting point about this on tvtropes I saw linked in another thread (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ReedRichardsIsUseless). Specifically the third point made, I will dulicate it here.

To avoid trivializing real-life problems. If Mr. Fantastic actually does cure HIV in the Marvel Universe, there will be plenty of real people still HIV-positive, and plenty of researchers still investing untold millions of dollars and man-hours to fight HIV when they finish the comic. This can make creators wary of tackling such issues, as it can be considered insensitive to have such a heavy burden in real life be casually miracle-cured in fiction. Also, in the interest of representation, physically challenged people exist in universes where science should theoretically be able to cure their handicap. However, either the disability is so ingrained as a facet of the character’s portrayal or curing them could be seen to detract from their mass-market appeal as someone that other physically challenged readers can relate to. This is probably why Professor X always ends up back in the wheelchair after regaining use of his legs.

Obviously they aren’t curing Taimi’s disability – she still needs her golem, but I can see how someone like the OP would say something like “the fact she has a Golem to fix it actually makes it worse because by that definition your giving false hope to the physically impaired by making the character into a paragon”.

It’s true Taimi is a visible disabled person in Tyria, but she is a very unfair one. We don’t have magical battle golems in the real world. Disabled people don’t have magitech solutions to their problems, any way they excell will usually have to deal with any disability, not magically cure it. The biggest limit Taimi has faced so far is she didn’t have access to her “wheelchair” because it broke and she couldn’t board a ship because her “wheelchair” wouldn’t fit. The rest of the time she is running around in a magical battle golem doing things that surpass the physical capabilities of able bodied asura (and in some cases we’ve seen, even the other biconics). Taimi is an unfair fantasy, I can understand why some people (this might depend on your perspective) would feel bitter about that.

I think there is a good argument to be made that Taimi’s golem (which cleverly combines asuran ingenuity, intelligence and problem solving) diminishes her as a disabled character. In many ways the golem wipes away the challenges of Taimi’s disability. She may not walk like an able bodied asura, but for the most part she can do as much and more than most asura via her golem. That’s not something a real world disabled person can do (not in a way which equals or surpasses being able bodied). That’s false hope.

A lot of focus is being put on all the things that Taimi can do, but destroying the vines blocking our way isn’t something Taimi did, it’s something her golem did. I don’t think the OP took issue with Taimi’s intelligence – she’s a self-proclaimed prodigy among the asura (arguably, who isn’t?).

What’s wrong with letting Taimi’s strengths be put at the forefront, not her magical battle golem’s strengths? Someone made a comparison to their father in a wheelchair wanting to be remembered for the things he was good at. If you take away Taimi’s magical battle golem, she’s still an incredibly brilliant asura. Arguably one of the smartest people in the current story. That’s a real depiction that can be mirrored in the real world. Real World disabled people can’t ride inside magical battle golems, but they can excel in a field of study and become “one of the undisputed geniuses of the twentieth and twenty-first centuries” like Steven Hawking.

Since when are we given the idea that Taimi needs pity?

During the last Zephyrite visit. Marjory, Kasmeer and Taimi talk about how Taimi is unable to board a ship she really wants to board because her golem wouldn’t fit. During Edge of the Mists she is pitied because she is stranded and helpless when her golem breaks and she needs to rely on Braham there. Even if the player doesn’t pity her, Braham is scripted to do so. Taimi is pitied when her disability is part of the story. When she’s talking about Scarlet or research etc it doesn’t come up, but whenever her disability is a focus of the story (usually so the biconics can each comment on it), what else are they going to do?

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Posted by: blud.8174

blud.8174

Lol, you’re probably not going to read this, but I just had to log in and comment. I have some empathy for you, but your complaints are kinda ridiculous and full of bad logic.

Allow me to explain. You’re insisting that the problems of the real world should not exist in a game. First of all, it isn’t possible to write fiction without it having some semblance to the real world unless you’re doing an experiment in surrealism. Stories have characters and characters have personalities and stories are interesting because the characters have elements that you can identify and relate to from real life. But whatever.
I understand that you play video games as escapism and you don’t want to be reminded of your disability, but not only is that the exact opposite of what some other disabled people feel, it’s also a problem that only exists because you’re making it exist. Just like how you expect abled people to not pity you and see you as more than a wheelchair (or whatever), you have to stop seeing any depiction of disability as victimizing you. Taimi is not crippled and bed-ridden and dumb – she’s smart, inquisitive, funny, and she doesn’t let her disability keep her from living her life. It’s the exact thing that you want abled people to think. Like the first commenter said, disability is a real thing and hiding it from people does not let them understand that you are a real person with a real personality.

And the false hope thing is also ridiculous. Will you say that people shouldn’t use wheelchairs because it gives a person in a developing country who can only afford crutches a false sense of hope because they will never be able to afford a wheelchair? You can’t say that it’s a fantasy world and fantasy things should happen and then complain that it’s not realistic. No one is expecting you to build a golem – but for that matter, exoskeletons are a developing technology that will someday allow disabled people more mobility.
I guess it’s true that there should be more dumb female characters as well. The bumbling male fool is a tired trope, but please don’t act like ANet only depicts men as stupid. The guy that leads Tyria to take back Orr and kill Zhaitan is male and not muscled. There ought to be more male humans that aren’t fools nor muscular.
Regarding the Jory and Kas relationship losing flair because all they do is remind you that they have a lesbian couple in the game: what the kitten? Would you be making that same accusation if Kas was a dude? They have a normal, stupid, overly mushy relationship and it has nothing to do with them being lesbians.
That being said, the dialogue could really be written better. Whenever I see their scenes, I just can’t wait for it to be over.
Lastly:
Why cant we have a darker Taimi?
We do. Taimi is so in love with Scarlet’s genius and thinks she can be her protégé without being corrupted by a dragon. Her obsession could lead to her doom.

Why can’t Jory and Kas have relationship problems? They do. Jory is overly protective of Kas and Kas wants to do more for Jory, but the only way she knows how is through money which she no longer has. Or something like that.

Why does Braham have to act like an idiot when he could clearly have some development from some wisdom through Eir.
Because he grew up with his dad and doesn’t like his mom for being off adventuring and not being there to raise him. He’s not a total idiot because he is able to understand Taimi’s technobabble using his own analogies and experiences.

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Posted by: PopeUrban.2578

PopeUrban.2578

So, by your logic people should never die, or become sick, or experience any kind of adversity in a fantasy setting because it echoes horrible and uncomfortable things that happen in reality?

Stop and consider that you are projecting your own issues outward on to:

A character that isn’t defined by her handicap.
A grieving loner that is learning that friendships may be more powerful than muscle.
A couple that is… okay, they talk about their feelings bit much. I’ll give you that one.

You’re suggesting that we should never make war movies because veterans exist, that we should never make murder mysteries because people actually get murdered. You’re suggesting that an uplifting story about overcoming adversity, predjudice, social stigma, and global terror is somehow a negative thing.

I’m sure you have your own issues, but being hypersensitive about them and expecting the world to revolve around you is not only unrealistic, it’s offensive. You could have looked at taimi and seen a shining example of someone overcoming personal issues, and being defined by what she’s good at rather than her handicap. In stead you chose to see it as an attack directed at you.

I hope you work through your own personal difficulties, I really do, but suggesting that a positive message is somehow negatively resonant is just a marker of your own bitterness and pessimism, and doesn’t at all represent the tone or content of the story as presented. it’s not the greatest story ever told, but it’s certainly not being told in a way that intentionally or even passively offensive.

Guild Master – The Papacy [POPE] (Gate of Madness)/Road Scholar for the Durmand Priory
Writer/Director – Quaggan Quest
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ky2TGPmMPeQ

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Posted by: Ashandar.2570

Ashandar.2570

I keep forgetting that Taimi is disabled, I just don’t see a problem there, she’s just one of my team, and a member of my college. I love her, but that snooty remark about me not having done any research since becoming the Snaff Savant.. -_-
Jory and Kas.. as stated above, it’s still in the rosy stage. It will evolve like all relationships. A fast forward button for the lovestruck dialogue would be nice though, I want one IRL as well.
Braham.. He has been somewhat neglected by the writers so far, hopefully he’ll get more involved later.
Rox.. Has she had any major part since LS1? I feel the writers are treating her like LFG usually treats rangers..
Um.. oh yeah, there is a topic in this thread. On topic then: I disagree with OP. My advice: if you dislike LS and/or how the characters are portrayed, do not play it.

In due time, all will serve the asura.

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Posted by: M Steel.2574

M Steel.2574

Taimi -

I am not a physically disabled person, so my perspective is limited, but I like that Taimi’s disability is a part of who she is, but isn’t the only thing that defines her as a character. Anet could have chosen to focus on her disability and make it the catalyst of her actions throughout the story (i.e. her obsession with Scarlet is rooted in her desire to cure herself and walk again, etc.) or they could have gone with the stereotype that all people with disabilities are more compassionate because of the adversity they’ve had to overcome. Personally, I like that they haven’t gone in either of those directions (at least not yet). So far, Taimi’s motives and obsession with Scarlet seem very asuran. We’ve met a lot of asurans that act without thinking about consequences and think they know it all. I like that Taimi’s actions don’t seem to be driven by self-pity or false hope. She wants to analyze Scarlet’s tech because, like most Asura, she wants to be the bestest best most genius inventor extraordinaire of all time x2 with a cherry on top! Could her overzealous attitude have something to do with her condition and the fact that she has a greater sense of her mortality than most asura her age? I suppose it could, but it certainly isn’t her only motivation.

Braham -

Okay, Braham may not be the brains of the outfit and he may be a tad on the “bash first, smash later” side at times, but I’d argue that he’s the heart of the group and has grown as the story progressed. He is very much a norn. Norn culture is based heavily on personal achievement, glory, and physical prowess. And Braham certainly represents these aspects of his culture, but he also undermines them too. For example, he encourages Rox to take down Scarlet at the expense of his own personal glory and he sticks around to keep Taimi company while she fixes her golem even though she is basically just some strange, bratty, kid at that point. My point is that Braham is not all brawn. He’s shown himself to be a loyal friend and has a nurturing side as well. I’m really enjoying his current story arc. Suddenly he’s been injured and Rox is mother-henning him , but he isn’t snapping at her or rushing headlong into fights with impossible odds. He’s been very gentle and understanding of Rox’s feelings, which is refreshing. Yeah, he’s the muscle, but he’s also more than that.

Kasmeer and Jory -

Okay, the hot asian—err canthan—femme fatale and the bubbly blonde bombshell are classic stereotypes. I’m not going to argue that. And they do seem like a step backwards given that GW2 already has Caithe and Faolian, a more compelling and complex lesbian couple. If they really wanted to make a statement they should have made Majory and Kasmeer both men—male/male relationships are totally underrepresented in the gaming community—but they decided to play it safe with some run of the mill PG-rated lesbian exhibitionism. I’ll give you the fact that they are unoriginal and stereotypical, but to say that they don’t have problems and they can’t grow as characters is off the mark. In Season One, Marjory treated Kasmeer like a delicate flower who couldn’t take care of herself and it got on Kasmeer’s nerves. At the beginning of Season 2 their roles were reversed, and they are starting to learn to trust each other to take care of themselves. One problem I have, is that Anet is rehashing the same storyline with Rox and Braham in Season 2, and, in my opinion, Rox doting on Braham and not wanting him to put himself in danger is being better executed because it isn’t mired by the same ultra-feminine/ultra-closed-off-loner stereotypes as Kas and Jory. Rox isn’t doting on Braham because she’s a stereotypical feminine caregiver; she’s doting on him because she’s lost people who were close to her before and doesn’t want history to repeat itself. Braham isn’t bitter about Rox treating him with kitten gloves, rather he tries to reason with her and seems to understand where she is coming from. It’s not that Kas and Jory are bad characters it’s just that I feel like I’ve read their story before. Now, if they had killed Majory off like they supposedly originally intended, that would have been a game changer. I would have liked to see that. It was a missed opportunity.

(edited by M Steel.2574)

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Posted by: CaptainVanguard.4925

CaptainVanguard.4925

Well Episode 2 Came Out, my thoughts on the characters since it:

Kas and Jory:

They actually “did” strain their relationship which worked, see, Season 1 to its fair credit since I was there all the way from day freaking 1 of it did have a good build up to the Kas/Jory thing even if it did feel a little “predictable” in the end. But what I do feel is that it happened too fast and even if in this fictional world where characters worry about each others fates, throwing it down that right off the bat “kitten that was fast” is the only way I can put the Kas/Jory relationship.

I actually like the fact for the first time Jory doesn’t “want” Kas near her, because it gives them a sense of struggle for once, and struggle enhances relationship or ends it, which will be interesting to see what direction that goes.

That said, Belinda’s death “was” forced and nobody can deny she was just killed off purely as a token character which was a little bit too convenient.

Honestly I would rather she had died “later” than sooner if she had to die at all just so we had more time to know her.

Rox and Braham

I actually liked the fact that Rox is being motherly towards Braham, for once she actually feels useful in the group and not just because she suddenly remembered in the end of S1 she had some medical skills we never knew about, but because she genuinely actually does something in the game representing her ability to worry about him, even as far as to apparently dislike Taimi (if you read your personal story journal about Ep2).

Rox was the stand out this episode for me since this is the first time I actually liked her as a character outside her “N-n-notice me Senpai!” Complex for Rytlock.

Taimi

Well… being disabled myself with Tendonitis, Aspergers and Dyspraxia where do I start.

“The Golem Solves Everything”. This, to me actually annoyed me, a lot, we just suddenly find the prodigy child is just suddenly in her golem perfectly fine everything’s dandy and nothings wrong.

Yet again… they are trying to make her useful, but it feels like she is actually becoming the spotlight character since she has:

- Broken down Vines with a Golem when Braham could have done this.
- Started activating Asura machinery because machines and Charr have nothing in common right?
- Doesn’t even care that Belinda died.
- Fails at being an Asura by doing the incompetent thing of throwing herself into Omadds Machine despite the fact she KNEW what the consequences were going to be.

And people like her?

Oh don’t get me wrong, the fact she recognizes that “the boss” should play with the nasty Asura machinery to destroy inquest was a good twist but at the same time it still feels like people are too forgiving of this characters faults.

TL:DR
- Taimi does recognize you as the boss, fair enough, she also helps in her own way by hacking Scarlet’s old consoles.
- Taimi is an idiot for rushing into a machine she KNEW VERY WELL made Scarlet go insane, so much for that “Asura Genius” people keep preaching about.

I don’t have a bee under my bonnet for Taimi, I just don’t see the appeal of this character the same way other people do.

When she was first introduced, I liked her rather quirky and spunky attitude but now I find it highly annoying and a little bit obnoxious.

It also doesn’t help she practically serves as a-nets conduit to remind us we have to feel sorry for Scarlet because her biggest fan-girl never shuts up about her.

This character needs a giant wake-up call, something that will actually take her off Scarlet romancing and start to make her ambitious about her own dreams and aspirations instead of following in the shadows of another.

I did say I wanted a darker Taimi, and I got one, what I also want is for Taimi to eventually go down the road of her own life rather than living behind Scarlet’s and just becoming Scarlet MK2.

I also think that while you cant kill a prodigy I do think if Scruffy was to be destroyed we might see a very interesting side of Taimi that id like to see.

I want to know what shes like when she “isn’t” confident about herself.

I just think that Taimi in general needs to develop a bit more, being the youngest character in a setting where its roots come from destruction, she has the most POTENTIAL as a character to evolve from it all to become a good ‘or’ bad person in time.

I personally want to see all sides of Taimi explored from her strength to her weakness, and so far, we don’t see enough of her weakness.

Vulnerabilities enhance someone, we have yet to see a single moment Taimi genuinely suffered from her disabilities that made her feel like she was angry, upset, or frustrated about it, that makes her determined to overcome it or not be pitied.

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Posted by: Ashandar.2570

Ashandar.2570

So basically you want Taimi to be hurting, miserable and you wouldn’t mind if someone destroyed her golem since it’s not in good tone to kill her?
Taimi is Asura. Asura have great egos, are more intelligent than any other race on Tyria, and their entire culture is centered around the Eternal Alchemy and magic-infused technology. What you are suggesting is totally against what it means to be Asura, and thus I can only boil it down to you wanting her to be some kind of human defeatist dwarf, spreading misery all around, which makes me a bit sad.
Besides, why would you let a charr handle Asura Tech when you have a handy Asura with you?

You started this discussion with the statement that you like Taimi. You lied.

In due time, all will serve the asura.

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Posted by: CaptainVanguard.4925

CaptainVanguard.4925

You say I lied? Id like to see exactly what statement, word for word I lied in vs a statement I contradict myself.

Now, aside from that:

Why would you let a Charr handle Asura Tech? Because Charr handle Charr tech, granted it isn’t as Dystopian and is clearly more Post Apocolyptic but I’m pretty sure some hot-wiring would have got the same result.

Also, it does not justify the fact that an extremely intellectually advanced being would suddenly launch herself into Omadd’s Machine KNOWING the consequences of her actions so that may have been a fault on the writers part for not keeping true to species culture.

However, What I dislike about Taimi is that Taimi is a Token Character.

She is the Child in Skyrim, the Anakin Skywalker in Episode 1.

She exists to be important in some way because shes supposed to be bright, quirky, clever, intellectual, brilliant, spunky, and a tad manipulative.

I get what she is, but that doesn’t change what she symbolizes.

Shes literally there to be exactly what the cardboard cutout says, with no depth, no complexity, she suddenly turns up in late S1 without warning, a literal “child” just being all clever and funny and at the time, I admired it, I even liked her for it.

But then I quickly began to realize.

This, character, will never be useful, ever.

You cant kill her, you cant wound her, you cant do anything to her that goes against PG13+ standards because by definition it would force the rating to go up.

…Yet… that’s not strictly true.

You can, hurt her, you just don’t have to KILL her, or physically injure her, hell you could even KILL the character and it would be plausible if done off screen.

I’m gonna quote the guy whose making the Warcraft Movie:

“There’s a hell of a lot you can get away with in a PG13+”

Hell, GW1, was 12+ and still managed to flourish despite it featuring:
- Graphically disgusting and horrifying monsters.
- Violent depictions of death.
- Entire civilizations being WIPED OUT virtually speaking.
- Implications of very dark and grizzly themes.
- You survive an apocalypse, you don’t save the world.

If you saved the world in Gw1, why was it that Ascalon was turned into a pile of ash and smoke, why was it that in Kryta people were being SACRIFICED ON AN ALTAR to fuel a ward that STAVED OFF A DEMONIC INVASION.

For the love of the six gods, this setting was never about child geniuses playing with dragon magic like a 10 year old with play dough, it was about dark, deep, intense situations that forced the player to survive some of the worst possible things that a universe can “throw” at you.

Even a traditionalist Gw1 player will be able to tell you by comparison to GW2, GW1 featured virtually no children, was set in a much darker universe to its modern day counterpart, and lived and thrived in very gritty elements of near apocalyptic situations.

What is Taimi to GW2? A representation of the direction we have radically flown away from, this phobia that a 12+ game cant have dark or edgy content is a very odd one to say the least, when the latter half of the game revolves around half the cast of your pact army being massacred by Zhaitan.

Simply put, I want GW2 to get back to what it was in GW1 and stick to its true nature instead of pretending to be something its not.

You cannot “rewrite” the universe just to conveniently accommodate a completely different happier toned setting, that’s called “fan-fic” and its a bad way to make a universe different.

Dragons destroying land is a good start, and taking lives away is yet another example of what the game needs.

It also needs signs of rebuilt civilization’s and signs that the races of Tyria are claiming land as well as loosing it.

Yet the struggle, the ambiance, the tone of joy against darkness feels wrong.

Take Dragon Bash.

Was Dragon Bash a good thing to have during the aftermath of Flame and Frost and the Southsun Cove events?

You’re going to suddenly make a happy joyous festivity out of a freaking slaughter?

I get the point, I do, but it feels like its delivered wrong.

And Taimi serves to prove what I’m trying to convey.

She isn’t a bad character, but she lacks the characteristics that make her apart of the ambiance naturally, rather instead, shes supposed to come across as some strong kid were all rooting for when really its like putting a brilliant minded child with epic machines in the middle of a dragon infested to- oh wait.

They did that, and rather than going in and saving her, we just literally get told shes fine.

I don’t get it.

There is no enmity to Taimi, just a feeling of uncertainty that this works, and hopefully who knows I will be proven wrong and this actually meshes rather well.

For now I remain unconvinced.

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Posted by: Assassin X.8573

Assassin X.8573

If i got offended for every video game that protrayed asians in any way thatd be rediculus.
Yoy dont HAVE to play the LS. No one is forcing you to do it. It is OPTIONAL.

Darkhaven Gold Tiger Assassin X [JPGN][Sold][VII]
Videos on Youtube

(edited by Assassin X.8573)

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Posted by: Mada.5319

Mada.5319

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Posted by: Pandaman.4758

Pandaman.4758

I’m not disabled, so I don’t share your perspective on disabled characters, but I never thought of Taimi’s disability to be some attempt at tugging at heart strings; it was an aspect of her character, which she manages by herself for the most part, and the only thing that really caused concern was her dogged pursuit of everything Scarlet. Every time Taimi stops to investigate Scarlet by herself, my thought isn’t “oh geez, don’t leave the disabled kid by herself”, it’s “oh geez, she’s either going to wind up a pile of ashes with a bow tie on top or go completely insane”.

As for Braham… that’s just dumb. Sorry, don’t mean to offend, but seriously: gentle giants are a cliche that existed long before the feminism movement. There’s nothing “feminist” about the stereotype, it’s just something that’s frequently used for characters who are either meant to be followers and/or not to be villains; being offended by something like that just makes you look hypersensitive.

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Posted by: Djinn.9245

Djinn.9245

For the love of the six gods, this setting was never about child geniuses playing with dragon magic like a 10 year old with play dough, it was about dark, deep, intense situations that forced the player to survive some of the worst possible things that a universe can “throw” at you.

Dragons destroying land is a good start, and taking lives away is yet another example of what the game needs.

It also needs signs of rebuilt civilization’s and signs that the races of Tyria are claiming land as well as loosing it.

Yet the struggle, the ambiance, the tone of joy against darkness feels wrong.

Take Dragon Bash.

Was Dragon Bash a good thing to have during the aftermath of Flame and Frost and the Southsun Cove events?

You’re going to suddenly make a happy joyous festivity out of a freaking slaughter?

I get the point, I do, but it feels like its delivered wrong.

And Taimi serves to prove what I’m trying to convey.

She isn’t a bad character, but she lacks the characteristics that make her apart of the ambiance naturally, rather instead, shes supposed to come across as some strong kid were all rooting for when really its like putting a brilliant minded child with epic machines in the middle of a dragon infested to- oh wait.

Not ignoring the rest of what you said, just pulling out some bits that I really resonate with.

This game is supposed to be about some really, REALLY BAD THINGS. The world is being taken over by undead. The dragons are waking. Scarlet has been wrecking havok and completely destroyed LA. In the midst of this a heroic team is created to face these dangers and one of the members is a cutesy child??!! This is one of the things that completely breaks my immersion, because I’m supposedly “the boss” and yet the very first thing I would do if I was really the boss is I would not have let Taimi join us in the first place.

People have these arguments like: she’s going to study Scarlet anyway. You know what would happen if some perky kid decided that they wanted to get involved in the hunt for Osama bin Laden? I mean come on, no one would say “well, she’s going to do it anyway so we might as well make her a highest-clearance member of the NSA…”

This decision by Anet to try to merge a “world in the middle of constant disaster and war” with cutesy plush backpacks for adventurers, “hot” comments and idle animations for female warriors, and a perky kid member of the highest level Multi-National Intelligence Team just makes this game completely nonsensical to me. I can’t care about anything because nothing is “real”. I’m not invested.

it’s this luck based mystic toilet that we’re all so sick of flushing our money down. -Salamol

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Posted by: Lasica.5068

Lasica.5068

Why make sense, when it’s so much more fun to make nonsense?

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Posted by: Vayne.8563

Vayne.8563

For the love of the six gods, this setting was never about child geniuses playing with dragon magic like a 10 year old with play dough, it was about dark, deep, intense situations that forced the player to survive some of the worst possible things that a universe can “throw” at you.

Dragons destroying land is a good start, and taking lives away is yet another example of what the game needs.

It also needs signs of rebuilt civilization’s and signs that the races of Tyria are claiming land as well as loosing it.

Yet the struggle, the ambiance, the tone of joy against darkness feels wrong.

Take Dragon Bash.

Was Dragon Bash a good thing to have during the aftermath of Flame and Frost and the Southsun Cove events?

You’re going to suddenly make a happy joyous festivity out of a freaking slaughter?

I get the point, I do, but it feels like its delivered wrong.

And Taimi serves to prove what I’m trying to convey.

She isn’t a bad character, but she lacks the characteristics that make her apart of the ambiance naturally, rather instead, shes supposed to come across as some strong kid were all rooting for when really its like putting a brilliant minded child with epic machines in the middle of a dragon infested to- oh wait.

Not ignoring the rest of what you said, just pulling out some bits that I really resonate with.

This game is supposed to be about some really, REALLY BAD THINGS. The world is being taken over by undead. The dragons are waking. Scarlet has been wrecking havok and completely destroyed LA. In the midst of this a heroic team is created to face these dangers and one of the members is a cutesy child??!! This is one of the things that completely breaks my immersion, because I’m supposedly “the boss” and yet the very first thing I would do if I was really the boss is I would not have let Taimi join us in the first place.

People have these arguments like: she’s going to study Scarlet anyway. You know what would happen if some perky kid decided that they wanted to get involved in the hunt for Osama bin Laden? I mean come on, no one would say “well, she’s going to do it anyway so we might as well make her a highest-clearance member of the NSA…”

This decision by Anet to try to merge a “world in the middle of constant disaster and war” with cutesy plush backpacks for adventurers, “hot” comments and idle animations for female warriors, and a perky kid member of the highest level Multi-National Intelligence Team just makes this game completely nonsensical to me. I can’t care about anything because nothing is “real”. I’m not invested.

Except she’s not just a pesky child, she’s a talented prodigy who has been helpful in the past and is even more helpful currently. Her expertise about Scarlet does come in handy.

Essentially she’s Wesley Crusher from Star Trek the Next Generation. He was a pesky kid who kept saving the ship.

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Posted by: Djinn.9245

Djinn.9245

Not ignoring the rest of what you said, just pulling out some bits that I really resonate with.

This game is supposed to be about some really, REALLY BAD THINGS. The world is being taken over by undead. The dragons are waking. Scarlet has been wrecking havok and completely destroyed LA. In the midst of this a heroic team is created to face these dangers and one of the members is a cutesy child??!! This is one of the things that completely breaks my immersion, because I’m supposedly “the boss” and yet the very first thing I would do if I was really the boss is I would not have let Taimi join us in the first place.

People have these arguments like: she’s going to study Scarlet anyway. You know what would happen if some perky kid decided that they wanted to get involved in the hunt for Osama bin Laden? I mean come on, no one would say “well, she’s going to do it anyway so we might as well make her a highest-clearance member of the NSA…”

This decision by Anet to try to merge a “world in the middle of constant disaster and war” with cutesy plush backpacks for adventurers, “hot” comments and idle animations for female warriors, and a perky kid member of the highest level Multi-National Intelligence Team just makes this game completely nonsensical to me. I can’t care about anything because nothing is “real”. I’m not invested.

Except she’s not just a pesky child, she’s a talented prodigy who has been helpful in the past and is even more helpful currently. Her expertise about Scarlet does come in handy.

Essentially she’s Wesley Crusher from Star Trek the Next Generation. He was a pesky kid who kept saving the ship.

It doesn’t matter how talented she is, she doesn’t belong on the battlefield. And she certainly wouldn’t be the one in charge of the enemy’s secret plans. She might be allowed to be on the team but not in charge.

And if Wesley Crusher was allowed to do more than help with programming and coming up with strategies then that is completely unrealistic also.

I understand that people like her because she’s cute so they want to make excuses for why she should be there. But for me it is silly and breaks my immersion.

it’s this luck based mystic toilet that we’re all so sick of flushing our money down. -Salamol

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Posted by: Chaba.5410

Chaba.5410

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Asura

“The asura value intelligence and intellectual superiority over all other attributes. Individual asura will dedicate an entire lifespan to building a portfolio of successful projects or becoming the foremost expert of some tiny aspect of the arcane. They constantly seek to prove their own intellectual superiority, and by extension the superiority of the asura race. This typically results in asura being arrogant to the point of rudeness towards others, especially towards non-asura races. The asura have quickly established their intellectual and magical superiority over the other races and view them as useful primarily for heavy lifting, taking risks, and asking stupid questions. "

Taimi to a T.

Chaba Tangnu
Founding member of [NERF] Fort Engineer and driver for [TLC] The Legion of Charrs
RIP [SIC] Strident Iconoclast

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Posted by: Synesh.1094

Synesh.1094

I can’t state my opinion on Taimi and Jory + Kas too much. For one I can only give generic opinions, and two last time that was done the post was deleted. Two forum posts actualy, so I guess it’s just a matter of time before it happnes to this as well.

My problem with Taimi is that she’s made to be a bit too cute at times, but that’s for many asura.
Jory + Kas is a bit forced, as other stated there are times to solve reletionship problems , and other times to focus on the action. And talking of ones healt while investigating a case of air crash is not that one.

I think gw1 story was just a bit better with its characters because (at least in Factions and Nightfall.) They didn’t put character drama in the middle of adventure. It was mostly a colorful sidenote. Like in nightfall between Koss and Melonni. They didn’t get along untill you’re at Abaddon doorstep, and all trough your journey you’d read them talking, again, in the background. But it was never that discrating (spam aside) now with too much emphasis on the characters and forcing the player to wait for them to complete their dialogues. That’s the problem. At least for me.
Personaly the characters don’t need to hold you, to be deep. And don’t need to be forced in front of you.
So yea, round it up even if characters had personalities, they never truly stopped the action or shifted your focus from the grand scheme of things. Now it’s a mixed bag. Good or bad up to personal taste, personaly I’d like more world and less exposition on character “drama”. (probably not the best decription and I’m sorry but I couldn’t come up with a better one.)

And about Braham…I don’t think the main problem is that he’s a gentle brute protector and little else, it’s just that he’s the main and only character of that kind we spend most of our time with. And he’s a bit too passive too, never contributing with his guardian spells like Jory or Kas do.
One would think he could do a crap tone of stuff with those. But he’s treated like a brainless warrior, never taking too much time in conversations or planning.
He needs a counter part, something to stimulate him to be do something more then just bash the next skull. I just say, there’s room for the likes of Braham, but he didn’t really move that much from when we first meet him. Making him look flat in my eyes.

Mind you, this character are not bad by any means. I chuckled more then I dare to admit when Taimi used Jory as a unit for weight. But they are too forced, and too much in your face, distracting from the fact that we have giant vine monsters strangulating people and forts alike.
Dare to say, having to have to weight for them for an door to open reminds me of Call of Duty campain.

(edited by Synesh.1094)

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Posted by: Ceallach.8740

Ceallach.8740

I was thinking earlier today, actually, about how much I like Braham. While I do wish we had more male characters that effort was put into, I don’t think Braham is a “feminist stereotype” (what ? Feminism would say that men DON’T have to be masculine stereotypes – like, the exact opposite of what you say you have a problem with).

Also, when it comes to Taimi thinking she’s so smart that she can rush into the machine and be okay – I feel like we say exactly that kind of stuff in the asura personal story and that it’s a completely “asura” thing to do. Asura are as much, if not more, driven by “fame” as the Norn are – they are just “fame for intelligence” not “fame for brawn”. All over the open world as well we see “smart” asura doing things that are going to get themselves or others killed in the name of “data” or “knowledge”.

It’s not necessary or good for a character to fit 100% into the stereotype of their people – but what Taimi did isn’t really an outlier in “bad choices that smart asura make”.

If anything, thinking about this is kind of cool because the Asura and Norn are the same side of a “personal glory” coin, but the Norn have more room for intellectual growth since they don’t start off assuming they’re super-smart and right about everything. Her great intelligence but lack of awareness is actually a weakness, in a way. If she wants personal growth, she would need to go against everything her people stand for and admit she DOESN’T know everything. If I pity her for a weakness, that would be the one – that she cannot see beyond the views of her culture and that not being able to could literally destroy her or others.

I agree that they could do more with her disability. If Scruffy is so great than why aren’t all asura in one all the time ? I think they’re starting to address that, but barely.

I think it’s hard for writers to really succeed at writing disabled characters, but I want to give GW2 credit for trying and for doing some things right even if she’s not perfect. You might not agree, but I prefer that they ARE trying, rather than just not giving a disabled character a shot at all. I hate seeing writers use “impossible cure” on characters that I share attributes with, so I understand where you’re coming from. I don’t think there’s any perfectly right way to handle this – because on one hand fantasy and science fiction are one of the greatest ways to talk about these issues, BUT some people are here for “escapism only” and actually WANT a “fantasy everything that is a problem can be fixed with magic and stuff !” view. I don’t think either party is wrong for wanting what they want, escapism might seem empty but I don’t think the hope it can give people is completely “false”. I would also mention that there was a thread where a disabled girl literally sent the devs cookies because she appreciated Taimi so much – Taimi might not be perfect, but I do believe she’s a step in the right direction and she means a lot to many people already.

Taimi reminds me of Newt from Pacific Rim (and Annie from LoL) and I don’t necessarily want to see her go darkside. What I want more is for her to start to think outside the box of “being an asura” so that she can really develop as a being. However, this is the kind of fantasy story where I really don’t expect that to happen, although maybe.

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Posted by: Sir Vincent III.1286

Sir Vincent III.1286

Taimi

Well… being disabled myself with Tendonitis, Aspergers and Dyspraxia where do I start.

“The Golem Solves Everything”. This, to me actually annoyed me, a lot, we just suddenly find the prodigy child is just suddenly in her golem perfectly fine everything’s dandy and nothings wrong.

I want you to picture something.

When you immerse yourself into your character, doesn’t it somehow eliminates everything from the real world? Your character is not disabled and “everything’s dandy and nothing’s wrong”.

Now picture being in Tiami’s shoes immersing herself into her GOLEM…

Yet again… they are trying to make her useful, but it feels like she is actually becoming the spotlight character since she has:

- Broken down Vines with a Golem when Braham could have done this.
- Started activating Asura machinery because machines and Charr have nothing in common right?

Asura machinery is arcane based, while Charr machinery is mechanical based…and Rox is not an Engineer. She’s a ranger who loves nature than machines.

- Doesn’t even care that Belinda died.

She’s an Asura where her people use other species as test subjects. It didn’t really surprise me. It would be out of character for her to care IMHO.

If you asked her about Belinda, she would probably say something along this line; “The vines are dangerous to human. Noted.”

- Fails at being an Asura by doing the incompetent thing of throwing herself into Omadds Machine despite the fact she KNEW what the consequences were going to be.

She had calculated the end result and she had concluded that her mind is superior to Scarlet’s thus her chances to going evil is very unlikely.

And people like her?

She jumped in there like a child she is seeing a new toy or a new game.

- Taimi is an idiot for rushing into a machine she KNEW VERY WELL made Scarlet go insane, so much for that “Asura Genius” people keep preaching about.

She already considered this into her calculation that’s why she eager to go in. If you review the conversation, you’ll understand.

If you have an Asura character, you’ll find that Asura just throw their progeny into the fire, per se. While doing the Asura begining area, you’ll see what they have to go through…which in the end makes them more sure about a lot of things.

When she was first introduced, I liked her rather quirky and spunky attitude but now I find it highly annoying and a little bit obnoxious.

Well, I find her curiosity and the way she explains things rather adorable.

It also doesn’t help she practically serves as a-nets conduit to remind us we have to feel sorry for Scarlet because her biggest fan-girl never shuts up about her.

Nah, Scarlet is evil, I don’t feel sorry at all. Taimi, on the other hand, might get too obsessive.

Overall it seems to me you want Taimi to represent you, however Taimi represent nobody but herself.

What ever happen to accepting people how they are instead of accepting people on how we want them to be?

http://sirvincentiii.com ~ In the beginning…there was Tarnished Coast…
Full set of 5 unique skills for both dual-wield weapon sets: P/P and D/D – Make it happen
PvE – DD/CS/AC – If that didn’t work, roll a Reaper or Revenant.

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Posted by: Ariella Goldstein.3562

Ariella Goldstein.3562

I find this whole conversation funny since the AC Unity flap opened up a very important conversation about representation in gaming.

http://www.gameranx.com/features/id/21176/article/conversations-we-should-have-bioware-s-manveer-heir-on-diversity-in-video-games/

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Posted by: Arghore.8340

Arghore.8340

Three things that I would like to comment on:
1. In regards to Braham, your critique would only be true if all males in the game are like him. That isn’t the case, so ergo. It is who Braham is, and we just happened to be ‘stuck’ with a male that is more ‘testosterone’ driven. So be it, it’s interesting in itself, and for that matter look at Rox … they aren’t drawn to each other for no reason, they think alike. As a matter of fact, the Norn and the Charr in parts seem to be cut from the same branch…

2. In regards to your end statement on how Tyria =/= Reality, and Anet should tell more about how Tyria is. Well perhaps Tyria is more like earth, and through this Anet is telling us that. You may not like this, but that is a whole different point of view than saying that Anet isn’t telling you things about Tyria…

3. In this regard though, I will somewhat have to agree with you on one thing, why ‘only’ Taimi (this also goes back to your 1st ‘problem’). If indeed Tyria is more like earth than we previously knew, then why aren’t more NPCs showing this. The fact that it’s just Taimi we see, and not f/e other disabled NPCs (not un-commen in a world torn by war). That would be my point of critique in relation to this. And it’s more of the fact that Taimi seems to be ‘the only one’, that sort of makes it offensive in a sense that I can see…

Is this inconsiderate, well I do not know, I would use the words ‘not thought through enough’. Now I am all for more diversity in games, but if you choose to put something in there ‘like a disabled person’ or ‘lesbian’, you acknowledge then that this happens on your world. This than has implications, aka. it will happen more! Now some of it you may not always be able to see (like a sexual preference), but those that would be visible (like a disability) should then turn up in multiple places, so that ‘it’ can be considered as something normal for the world. So if you choose a main character to be disabled then disability is something on your world, thus it should be more prevalent in your world…

And personally I would prefer there to be more, I like my fantasy to not be this perfect thing, I like it when it also effects my thinking and reflects on day to day real life. Why? Because it’s a safe place to be confronted, in a sense…

We are peace, we are war. We are how we treat each other and nothing more…
25 okt 2014 – PinkDay in LA

(edited by Arghore.8340)

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Posted by: GuzziHero.2467

GuzziHero.2467

OP: In my opinion you are very wrong about Taimi. This is why.

My mother was born in a time where there was very little to help the disabled. She was born with weak/brittle bones.

At 13 she spent weeks in pretty much a full body cast to try and ‘straighten’ her. Her sister refused to recognise her in the street, and told her ’ you’ll be a cripple for the rest of your life’.

She was one of the first patients given a hip replacement by the legendary John Charnley, who anyone with severe disabilities may have heard of. If not: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Charnley

At times she was unable to walk, not through the fact that one leg was shorter than the other because of multiple operations, but through the pain. Years of using crutches left her right shoulder joint so damaged that it had to be replaced with a reverse implant (ball on shoulder, socket on arm).

She was still indefatiguable, doing most of the housework, cooking etc, even if to brush the stairs, she had to use a stair lift to the top and come down on hands and knees with a pan and brush. She refused to let anyone else do it, saying that everyone in the household had their role to play, this was hers.

She was an inspiration to me, and along with my father, my true hero.

Taimi does not make me pity her, it makes me admire her. And it makes me wish that my mother had had access to a little ‘Scruffy’ to help her when it got too much.

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Posted by: Olba.5376

Olba.5376

So if problems if the real world should not be in fantasy games, that means you have to eliminate at least the following:

  • Tyrants
  • War
  • Alcohol
  • Violence
  • Aging
  • Childbirth
  • Economy
  • Illness
  • Weapons
  • Races

Tell me, how much would GW2 have left if you did not have races, weapons, combat, the TP, villains, neither old nor young characters or anyone who’s ill in any manner? All you would be left with is a big sandbox where all you could do is jump around and listen to curiously unaging 20-30-year-olds talking about how they’ve spent their immortal lives that were granted to by the gods. Oh and everyone would be of the same race.

(edited by Olba.5376)

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Posted by: MadDemon.7548

MadDemon.7548

While I somewhat agree on the Kasmeer/Marjory relationship being forced, I don’t agree with anything else.

Braham isn’t a feminist view on males; he’s a Norn. Norn are a strong, proud and boastful race who achieve glory by playing to their strengths. For some its their skill at hunting, other’s it’s the craft of making excellent weapons, and some like Braham it’s their strength. It’s all a part of Norn culture.

Finally, Taimi is not a disabled stereotype. She is not meant to be pitied; she goes out of her way to remind people that she isn’t too be pitied, sometimes to the point of endangering herself. Also, her Golem doesn’t fix her problems, it just acts as her arms and legs, which given what Golems actually are designed to do, makes it no different than any other Golem, save for the inclusion of a kittenpit that makes it no different from a Power Suit Golem (also when we first saw the art of Zojja standing in the palm of her Golem’s hand, don’t tell me you didn’t think the same).