Guild Wars 2

Alice.8694:

I am personally in the camp that there was far too much telling and not enough showing in season one. However the notion that there cannot be story unless there is some gameplay to distract the player is basically an absurd notion.

I think calling gameplay a `distraction` is a bit unfair. And really, I’ve seen plenty of discussion here of people saying it was fine the way it is. Ok, we all have different views. But I haven’t really seen any arguments that claim that any alternative I’ve proposed would be unacceptable or at least equally enjoyable. It’s almost like talking to Apple die-hards about tweaking anything that the iPhone/Pad or Mac does.

I understand your point about RPG games. If this scene took place as part of the Elder Scrolls series, I probably would not complain. However, even in that context, there’s a difference in that this is part of a time-gated story. If story content in a pure RPG was also time-gated, I would probably also find this annoying. I’m on the fence if you want to classify GW2 as RPG or not. The Personal Story (and by extension, the LW stuff) is RPG, but nothing you do in the Personal Story really matters in the explorable world, so since the Personal Story is non-repeatable, once you’ve done that the RPG portion of the story is dispensed with. I don’t then enter the LW with an RPG mindset since that isn’t my most common experience when playing the game. You can make an argument that I should simply switch gears and enjoy the story… okay, sure. In that case the story should be compelling to a general audience if I get story and nothing else. The Scarlet stuff in part 3 is mainly only going to be compelling to everybody who already knows who she is.

Alice.8694:

You give me the impression that you are the kind of developer that would end up with some godawful sandwich making mini game during a picnic scene.

This is also unfair since you presume the sandwich game would be awful.

Eggman.1405:

I think calling gameplay a `distraction` is a bit unfair. And really, I’ve seen plenty of discussion here of people saying it was fine the way it is. Ok, we all have different views. But I haven’t really seen any arguments that claim that any alternative I’ve proposed would be unacceptable or at least equally enjoyable. It’s almost like talking to Apple die-hards about tweaking anything that the iPhone/Pad or Mac does.

Adding gameplay to this scene would be a distraction. But to be fair you haven’t actually presented how you would add gameplay to this scene. Personally I don’t see how you can do it without ruining the mood and point of this scene. And thus it would be a distraction.

Eggman.1405:

I’m on the fence if you want to classify GW2 as RPG or not. The Personal Story (and by extension, the LW stuff) is RPG, but nothing you do in the Personal Story really matters in the explorable world, so since the Personal Story is non-repeatable, once you’ve done that the RPG portion of the story is dispensed with. I don’t then enter the LW with an RPG mindset since that isn’t my most common experience when playing the game.

It’s an RPG… The hint is in the genre… MMORPG.

Eggman.1405:

Alice.8694:

You give me the impression that you are the kind of developer that would end up with some godawful sandwich making mini game during a picnic scene.

This is also unfair since you presume the sandwich game would be awful.

See you’ve actually just proved my point… By misunderstanding mine.

It doesn’t matter if it’s the best sandwich minigame ever made… With metal gear revengeance style cutting physics. Probably the only game where I’d accept such a minigame actually…
I’m not here for sandwich minigames and when I’m immersed in story it’s not the time to throw out your new mini game ideas. Theres a time and place for that and that is not it.

You’re not looking at the whole picture, there is more than the last instance to the episode/chapter. In fact, we have four instance, the first of which serves as the introduction of the promblem/mystery/new area; the second, the rising action (facing new vilans, finding new clues, journeying to the top of the ship; the third is the climax, in which we find and fight the villain; and the last is the closure/falling action (which, also serves as a transition into the next episode). All the requirements of a typical storyarch are present.

And no, ending in a climax, or cliff hanger, is not the best way to do this episode, as this episode in itself, serves as an introduction; we’ve just located the mystery, and are just starting to compile the clues, the true story telling/rising action hasn’t even began yet, so its way too soon to have a climax or cliff hanger. Yes, while overused and cliched, a cliffhanger still serves as a good troup, but not for every episode, and given the nature of season 2 (entering new territory/learning new things), especially not on the first. Its bad story telling to stamp ‘cliff hanger’ as the closuer for each and every episode, or as the solution to every problem.

Alice.8694:

Adding gameplay to this scene would be a distraction. But to be fair you haven’t actually presented how you would add gameplay to this scene. Personally I don’t see how you can do it without ruining the mood and point of this scene. And thus it would be a distraction.

I have posited alternatives multiple times. And also to point out, I’m referring to the subchapter as a whole as being lacking, so there is plenty you can do without substantially touching the house scene. Since the house scene as such is the only notable part of the installment, it’s easy to focus on just that part in the discussions. Any of the following would have been an improvement (for me anyway):
- Make the search for the miner interesting. Maybe they have to be saved from the Devourers and/or Bandits/Inquest.
- Add some actual house defenses that have to be overcome. The NPCs discuss the fact that defenses could be a problem, but nothing happens. Make it a real problem.
- Toss the Inquest in there since they are present already. Maybe you have to stop Inquest agents getting to Scarlet’s house before you do.
- After the house scene ends, Taimi touches something she shouldn’t that starts an encounter. After this she gets admonished about being more careful, everybody laughs and we fade to black.

GW2 might label itself an RPG, but that doesn’t really make it such because the MMO part largely kills off the RPG half compared to what you would see in a standard RPG. For me, if you are calling a game an RPG, then my personal choices have to matter, and in GW2, they don’t once you finish the Personal Story. Other definitions of what makes a `true` RPG are also valid of course.

NTDK.4897:

The way I see it. The ending of this chapter is the boss instance with the Master of Peace leaving. I’m looking forward to know more about this mystery man.

The room at the end was sort of like an epilogue that gives more info about Scarlet and what to come next. I really like the dialogues of the small hologram.

Overall, I love everything about this 1st chapter.

i see it the same way…..it was like an epiloque to the first season that served as a transition to the next season and to the next chapter by hinting where you’ll go next.

while i like cliffhangers too (and i hope they use those as well as we progress) the more subtle transition after your first “big fight” made sense here.

Eggman.1405:

- Make the search for the miner interesting. Maybe they have to be saved from the Devourers and/or Bandits/Inquest.

Sure why not.

- Add some actual house defenses that have to be overcome. The NPCs discuss the fact that defenses could be a problem, but nothing happens. Make it a real problem.

This would have undermined the key distinction that this isn’t Scarlet’s house, it’s Ceara’s. She isn’t the unhinged genius we know her to be yet. This would be out of character for it to be something truly menacing.

- Toss the Inquest in there since they are present already. Maybe you have to stop Inquest agents getting to Scarlet’s house before you do.

This would cause such a headache for the story… You think Braham’s gonna let Taimi stay in that house with the inquest attacking? More to the point do you think any of the group are gonna side with Taimi and think its worth the risk of defending that house while she has time to research. I do not… This would present problems that work entirely counter to the stories direction.

- After the house scene ends, Taimi touches something she shouldn’t that starts an encounter. After this she gets admonished about being more careful, everybody laughs and we fade to black.

You’re still considering this to be Scarlet’s abode… It is not. An encounter or boss would have worked against this. And given players the impression that it was scarlet’s home. Counter to what the story was trying to portray.

It definitely feels like you’re trying to force in gameplay where it is not wanted. A lot of these suggestions do not seem to fit with the pacing, themeing or intent of the story.

Alice.8694:

You’re still considering this to be Scarlet’s abode… It is not.

Well, it is, or how else do you explain the hologram that has entries from both before and after her transition into madness?

Also, even if you want the only version living there to be the sweet, lovable version, that doesn’t preclude the existence of a servitor Golem or Steam Creature prototype that runs amok when you get there. It also doesn’t preclude the Inquest from wanting to loot her house. I agree that fighting off an Inquest raid would change the tone of the house exploration from a pleasant browse to having a sense of urgency, but I don’t see that as bad. I can understand if some people would prefer the very last part of this subchapter to be low-key.

Eggman.1405:

Alice.8694:

You’re still considering this to be Scarlet’s abode… It is not.

Well, it is, or how else do you explain the hologram that has entries from both before and after her transition into madness?

Also, even if you want the only version living there to be the sweet, lovable version, that doesn’t preclude the existence of a servitor Golem or Steam Creature prototype that runs amok when you get there. It also doesn’t preclude the Inquest from wanting to loot her house. I agree that fighting off an Inquest raid would change the tone of the house exploration from a pleasant browse to having a sense of urgency, but I don’t see that as bad. I can understand if some people would prefer the very last part of this subchapter to be low-key.

That’s really… in story telling every action must have a reaction, every event must be inspired by a previous event, and be the influence of one to follow. The first thing you edit out of stories, is the content that does not meet this requirement, if it does not futher the developement of the story it is not nessicary, otherwise the story goes on forever. What you’re talking about is a random tangent, and if pursued at every chance the story would be all over the place; basically a mess. Sometimes, there are sceens a story where no one fights, a simple conversation between friends is also a vital and core force of story telling.

Just take it as it is; a conclusion, falling action, tieing off loose ends, downtime, an epitath to the previous season, clues to the next episode, and a transition scene. It is a simple scene for simple purposes, but it is neccisary all the same. its also bad to overcomplicate the plot.

Eggman.1405:

I agree that fighting off an Inquest raid would change the tone of the house exploration from a pleasant browse to having a sense of urgency, but I don’t see that as bad.

The writers have got a story they are trying to tell, that requires certain plot elements to be in place.

What you are saying is kitten the writers, GAMEPLAY. And twist the story to fit in with the forced in gameplay.

…Yeah, no thanks.

There is pleanty of gameplay before the house scene… The whole chapter doesn’t need to be contorted to ensure that every second is choc full of gameplay.

For me, if you are calling a game an RPG, then my personal choices have to matter, and in GW2, they don’t once you finish the Personal Story.

So you basically just said RPGs have to contain an impossible to achieve element. Even to the loosest definition of “Choices have to matter” you are clearing most of the rpgs ever made from your definition of RPG.

For me… For a game to be an RPG, The key focus of the game must be you playing out a role within a story. And gameplay focused around that of course but never in spite of it.

That’s it… That’s all that is necessary… I know you can stick a lot of adventure and action games into that category as well. But more often than not, their main key focus is on something different.

Eggman.1405:

Alice.8694:

You’re still considering this to be Scarlet’s abode… It is not.

Well, it is, or how else do you explain the hologram that has entries from both before and after her transition into madness?

In her diary, she states that her further entries will be recorded remotely(?). The hologram doesn’t cover any of what she does against the world, just how she has changed after viewing the Eternal Alchemy. She still makes these entries, after becoming Scarlet, because vestiges of Ceara remain and it was Ceara’s habit to keep a diary.

Seems the hologram was advanced enough to pick up the voice of whatever Ceara brought back with her.

The ending tasks are a bit of padding and the ending instance is a bit long winded, I will give you that. But this is an MMO so padding, is normal. The problem is, they re-introduce Scarlet at the end of the chapter, so way too much of the narrative got unloaded after the climax (boss fight) of the chapter. The whole collection of Cerra/Scarlet’s things was a bit much. They probably should have spread it around and focused a bit less on it as this episode, of course, is about the Zephyrites.

I like the way it ended. There was enough fighting from the previous stages, and then more with the DEs.

Some bits I like about the Room scene:

- The diagram on the wall
- The steam minotaur on the shelf
- The hologram talking about the steam creatures
- The hologram showing the Ceara → Scarlet transition

These are topics that can (and did) generate a bit of discussion and create more hype for the next patch.

I would have liked it a bit more if you could have some sort of recap/summary of all the clues gathered. Maybe have Marjory give a list of “things we learnt so far” just to put everything in perspective.

But more combat would be jarring considering the purpose of this scene.