Guild Wars 2

Ok, so I have been watching videos and reading stuff from ANet for a long time as GW2 was being developed. One of the ideas I liked best was that they were trying to get away from the so called “holy trinity” of MMO’s (ie. tank, healer, dps). So I’m leveling away, enjoying my ranger, my guardian, etc, and then I hit the level where I can enter Ascalonian Catacombs. I have now had 4 groups in which the group was dedicated to getting through the instance, they were patient, they were planning stuff out ahead of time, they were communicating, and they all were willing to stay through wipes and wipes and wipes and wipes and….

So I ask my guild, what is going on? And I get the response “well the tank needs to do… whatever.” So, what? Did ANet move away from the idea that we weren’t supposed to require a tank? Several times on their site, even to this day, after they’ve changed the site so much, they still talk about how it shouldn’t matter who’s present in the battlefield, that everyone should be able to contribute and with good communication and planning, be able to win an encounter.

So if I get into a group where no one is able to switch to “tank gear” and “tank spec” (because ANet has been busy assuring people its not needed) how on earth are we supposed to beat some of these encounters? If tanks are required, then fine, tanks are required for this game. But don’t go telling people that you don’t want dedicated tanks and then build encounters where you have to have them!

I just spent the last 3 hours working with this group, who for all their passion, could not get past Vassar and Ralena. And this is the 4th time I’ve spent about that much time to only have everyone finally give up. Am I just stupid for assuming that ANet meant exactly what they said?

I imagine (while not having done any instances as I am having too much fun with other things) that speccing to be tanky or speccing to be support/healer would make these instances somewhat easier.

I’ve been in dungeons where nobody was a tank or healer, and we got it done. It wasn’t fast and it wasn’t easy, but we made it through to the end.

DangerMonkey.3158:

Dodge = tanking

Gw2 doesn’t want to get rid of them they just allow every player to build their character to their own like, this way your character can forfill any role. The only thing they got rid of is a healer this way it makes the dungeon more challenging

I’m not enjoying the mess that dungeons are now. I apreciate the idea to wanting to remove the trinity, but ANet seems to have done so without presenting an alternative.

I have found from personal experience that a dedicated healer makes dungeons a lot easier. My experiences were similar to the OP, but when I made a ‘full’ (as much as possible) healing spec with all +healing gear on my guardian suddenly dungeons started going a lot smoother. My 4 teammates could focus on their task at hand and not have to constantly worry and have to run out of combat just to not die, and they were glad to know I was watching over their health bars.

Though not intended by ANet, it seems to work better, and was also definatly more enjoyable (for all 5 of us, I sometimes have the idea ANet wants to remove the trinity because they think tanks and healers dont enjoy their job). Its to bad there is not threat system making tanking very viable, and CC is still to short and scarce, so combat will remain a mess.

Oh and no, I dont consider ‘graveyard zerging’ (running from the waypoints to the boss before a resets) a viable alternative to the trinity. I’m not entirely sure what ANets intend is, I hope somebody can enlighten me, because I’m not seeing it.

Its not so much tanks are not needed, but someone to take agro is.

I play my thief with 15 points in acrobatics so dodging returns some endurance, as well as gaining vigor (endurance regen) with heals. Combining both of these, I’m the guy who goes in head first, pulls agro of a group, and then lives through it while rest of gorup dps them down 1 by 1. I dodge, I heal, I kite. I don’t tank.

I just survive.

hint: pistol offhand = aoe blind for 4 sec, quite helpful for my role.

Because the aggro system is so erratic in GW2, even if you did have someone who was specced and geared to take a lot more punishment than other members of the team. They couldn’t “Tank” in the same way that you’re used to in other MMO’s, they can’t sit there and take all the damage simply because the mobs will get bored of them and move onto other members of the team.

I’ve done a lot of instances with no soldier classes and its not a big problem as long as people don’t stand in red circles the whole time. What does make instances easier is having a dedicated “Support” style player, meaning a player who spends his entire time buffing, healing, CCing, protecting and/or reviving downed players during encounters. This allows your team to make more mistakes and not wipe as a result, as I said it makes encounters easier, but is in no way a requirement.

Hope this helps

I personally built for a tank/support role but the way damage is so random it is too difficult to try and stand toe to toe with bosses. I think they focused more on the evade/dodge principal too much because I have stacked alot of toughness on top of the full toughness trait with the shield perk and don`t see much of a difference in damage taken. On top of that some of the mobs hit so hard that it makes armor class and defense look useless. You either time a negate skill just right or you try and dodge. Pure damage mitigation from your armor alone seems non existant when you get spiked and are dead in less then 2 seconds.

So since I learned the hard way that i can`t tank like normal I just stand in the backround and try to assist everyone else with heals and buffs and do my ranged dps at max range.

Although overall the game is very good and WvWvW is excellent dungeons are a total mess and I dont bother doing them. I honestly dont know what they were thinking.

It’s not that you need a tank. It’s that you need a certain level of support, and either everyone can chip in to support each other, or you can have one person support everyone else, at the expense of feeling like a healer.

People have the mentality that 5 glass cannons can beat a dungeon, when that’s not the case. That power/precision/condition full gear may win you PvE when it’s 1v1 or 1v2, but in a dungeon, 5vX, where all the X is super-buff, you need toughness, vitality, and HEALING POWER on your gear. You need to be applying protection to each other, swiftness to each other, removing each other’s conditions, etc. In dungeons you need to be spec’d to support each other.

For example, in PvE I use Troll Unguent on my ranger, but in dungeons Healing Spring is much better. Why? Because not only does it give AoE regen, but it makes a combo field. And it’s not just my arrows that trigger the combo field, it’s every single person in it. Every person in the combo field is applying regeneration to everyone else as they finish the combo.

Dungeons are all about supporting each other. The PvE glass cannon spec doesn’t work, you need to be buffing each other and comboing with each other.

Also, about Vassar and Ralena, there’s an easy way to win the fight:
Two people throw boulders at Vassar, two people at Ralena, one person is on Illusory Mage duty to kill any that Vassar manages to create. The four other people do nothing but throw boulders. Nothing. Don’t use any other skills, just throw boulders. It’s not the fastest way to win the fight, but it guarantees the bosses will never get a chance to hurt you.

What we need is a way to build multiple specs and a fast and easy way to switch to that build. If we had that option I think dungeons would be far smoother because many would create specific builds that are more suited to the style of play.

The problem is that many people are just shoving everything in their main damage traits thinking that killing faster is better. That’s probably fine for general leveling, but for dungeons you need more utility, more support, more defensive abilities/stats.

Well,so far i have completed the first 4 dungeons+explo. AC ,and i didn’t really had this problem,true that in some group where the Guardian/Warrior was specced to “Tank” build it was way easier but even with full dps groups i was able to finish it and enjoy the challenge. its all about knowing the environmental changes….“Don’t stand in the fire” (Or in GW2 world-don’t stand on the traps)is No# 1 rule in my eyes,after you get comfortable with the dodge mechanic and understand the surrounding ‘s changes it is very doable in in some cases i’d dare and say easy….
So far i think the dungeons are awesome,i really enjoy the challenge and hope the next tier of dungeons will be like that(just hit 70 so new one to explore

Mandrax.7342:

What we need is a way to build multiple specs and a fast and easy way to switch to that build. If we had that option I think dungeons would be far smoother because many would create specific builds that are more suited to the style of play.

The problem is that many people are just shoving everything in their main damage traits thinking that killing faster is better. That’s probably fine for general leveling, but for dungeons you need more utility, more support, more defensive abilities/stats.

I agree 100%

manwhat.1745:

Also, about Vassar and Ralena, there’s an easy way to win the fight:
Two people throw boulders at Vassar, two people at Ralena, one person is on Illusory Mage duty to kill any that Vassar manages to create. The four other people do nothing but throw boulders. Nothing. Don’t use any other skills, just throw boulders. It’s not the fastest way to win the fight, but it guarantees the bosses will never get a chance to hurt you.

Haha, now that you wrote that they are going to remove all the boulders from the zone.

Ultio.8015:

So I ask my guild, what is going on? And I get the response “well the tank needs to do… whatever.” So, what? Did ANet move away from the idea that we weren’t supposed to require a tank? Several times on their site, even to this day, after they’ve changed the site so much, they still talk about how it shouldn’t matter who’s present in the battlefield, that everyone should be able to contribute and with good communication and planning, be able to win an encounter.

It depends on the context

In EVE online for example, people use the term ‘tank’, to mean any defensive or survival capability or equipment. In WoW tank as we all know is the guy that maintains aggro, and in some niche fights non traditional tanks had to do this task too. In GW2 where there is no trinity, tank would probably have close to the same definition as EVE onlines. Whoever has the current focus of the boss or mob has to go into full defensive and healing mode (if the mob hits hard enough).

Honestly.

1) I love the chaos of the fights, it is what a real fight would be like. What is smart about a mob hitting the lowest dps outputter because he has aggro multipliers active?

2) you don’t need a tank or healer, you just need all 5 players to be aware they are in a focused dungeon and not a face roll DE. On my guardian sometimes I melee, sometimes I cast heals, sometimes I res, sometimes I range, it depends on circumstance and what the others are doing.

And I’m not even good at games.

3) saying you need a specific support player or aggro taker just suggests that you aren’t grouping up with players who know their characters and are playing as a group rather than as individuals in a set role. The trinity concept isn’t better, it is easier.

Healer why did you let me die all I am meant to do is DPS?
Because you stood in the fire, kitten.

Tank why did you lose aggro I’m only meant to DPS/Heal?
Because you burst so ridiculously high before I’d finished picking my nose, kitten.

DPS why aren’t you outputting 48,675 DPS, that’s all you are meant to be doing, and avoiding the fire?
Such up kitten, noob.

People have posted how they have completed dungeons on all range (4 mesmers and 1 ranger springs to mind) so nope, you don’t NEED a healer, you don’t NEED a tank, and of course you don’t NEED to play GW2, so complaining they have messed up when all they have done is offered an alternative that you may not like because it isn’t ordered, defined and limited is a tad whiney. I love them, more than the trinity of WOW where I had a tank and a healer, and I also love how hard AC story was for me and my groups.

Personally I have seen both good and bad groups in dungeon PuGs (explorable).

There is no real way to force agro, the heals are not large enough to have a dedicated healer. There is no holy trinity, how can we then do dungeons???

The issue, I personally find is that people are trying to fill one role, when in actual fact they need to fill at least 2 if not pitch in for all three.

Min-Maxing your build for damage for example will not work. Stacking only toughness and vitality, is also a very bad idea.

When Anet removed the trinity, they essentially wanted people to build well rounded characters.
For example, if you’re a warrior. Going GS – Longbow + stacking damage signets and damage gear and expecting this to be good for dungeons is a very very bad idea.

Try and make your build flexible.
So maybe use the GS you love on the mainset. But take for the love of god either alot of util for cc/support ooooor your offset being something like mace – shield.
Essentially with that set up your shooting for control + damage.
The crucial point being, that the only times I found a pug unbearable, was when one or two members were simply not flexible and in certain fights we lacked the key components needed (be it support, or control).

Hope that helps a little. Combo fields are also good to take along too. However I would priorities on ensuring everyone in the dungeon understands they will need to pitch in multiple categories of roles.

TL:DR;
Dungeons are challenging, more because the pug groups that attempt them have a group make up of – dps, dps, dps, dps, support-control. Or dps, dps, dps, control, support.

When its far more successful to have groups of – dps-control, dps-support, dps-control, control-support, dps-control.

Or even better when every build can cover all three categories.

Smiley.1953:

I’m not enjoying the mess that dungeons are now. I apreciate the idea to wanting to remove the trinity, but ANet seems to have done so without presenting an alternative.

I have found from personal experience that a dedicated healer makes dungeons a lot easier. My experiences were similar to the OP, but when I made a ‘full’ (as much as possible) healing spec with all +healing gear on my guardian suddenly dungeons started going a lot smoother. My 4 teammates could focus on their task at hand and not have to constantly worry and have to run out of combat just to not die, and they were glad to know I was watching over their health bars.

Though not intended by ANet, it seems to work better, and was also definatly more enjoyable (for all 5 of us, I sometimes have the idea ANet wants to remove the trinity because they think tanks and healers dont enjoy their job). Its to bad there is not threat system making tanking very viable, and CC is still to short and scarce, so combat will remain a mess.

Oh and no, I dont consider ‘graveyard zerging’ (running from the waypoints to the boss before a resets) a viable alternative to the trinity. I’m not entirely sure what ANets intend is, I hope somebody can enlighten me, because I’m not seeing it.

The main thing i’ve ran into is that most players do not play defensive. They build to be glass cannons and end up dead over and over and over. Problem with this is in dungeons if you have 1 or 2 people like this and no one playing support the dungeon becomes much much harder. The easiest run i’ve ever had was 3 support/whatever people and 2 glass cannons. While the glass cannons did the graveyard conga run the rest of us cleared the zone without a death. I asked one of them at the end of the zone what his total deaths were in the zone and he told me he lost count after 10. I have a feeling the other was at simular numbers.

Thanks for the responses all. Appreciate the feedback, and I will use it to hopefully improve my playing. I was VERY frustrated last night. I’m feeling better about it today after processing all the info I’m gonna incorporate. I’ll be sure to pass it on in game as well, as many of the people in the groups I’ve found are very much glass cannons (even the ones that are more tanky inherently because of armor type).

ive ran AC twice and i dont see myself running anymore dungeons, maybe way way later when they get nerfed. Right now its not a enjoyable experience.

Ya the lack of any strong healers makes dungeons friggen expensive.
I love running explo Arah, but I loose too much silver to justify it.

which blows because end game pve is what I enjoy most in a mmorpg

In my experience any combination of classes seems to work as long as your team knows what there doing. Get someone that wont listen or can’t pull there weight and your better off finishing without them. So far I’ve been able to clear catacombs in explorable with as little as 2 people when others have to leave or rage quit when they mess up and die. Each person needs to try to support the rest of the team, I don’t mean just healing, combo fields can make for much better damage and some great control. If your team knows how they can combo with each other the dungeons go much easier.

Since I need a DPS spec for open-world farming, a survival spec for W3 and a support/healing spec for dungeons… SPEC SWITCHING plox?

LoL or you could just build a balance of the three which is very very powerful from what i’ve seen.

I’ve done dungeons with three thieves, an ele and a necro. As long as your group plans to fill in the gaps (“Hey, those snipers are oneshotting us … let’s try to throw down some extra blinds”) it works.

i’m with those who have pointed out most people still have the mentality of wanting to do heaps-big dps and are speccing greatly into power.

i admit to being guilty of it myself, but found as soon as i respecced into vit and toughness, i felt much more comfortable. especially in my storyline fights. sure, the fights went longer, but so did i…

I switch so much between different attunements when in groups, trying to heal, support and dmg mobs. It works fine if you’re focused. I have never wiped so we quit, always finished the dungeon.

AC weren’t that bad as people say and we didnt wipe 100% once. Mostly because of planning, supporting eachother and so on. Of course downed but the whole group didn’t have to respawn.

You seem to be asking whether you can delegate the responsibility for your survivability to some other person if you have a glass cannon build.

The answer is generally: No, you can’t.

If you have a glass cannon build, your dungeon experience will mostly consist of graveyard zergs (if only because there are mobs that preferentially target low-health, low-toughness players). If you don’t have a glass cannon build, then you’ll already be as capable of “tanking” as any other character (insofar as “tanking” has any meaning in GW2).

i did AC, CA, TA, SE and Arah with 5 dps going from phisical to condition to hybrid

i found out that a team that keeps 25 stacks of bleed and 25 stacks of vulnerability and comunicates/kites is the way to go in gw2

Smiley.1953:

I’m not enjoying the mess that dungeons are now. I apreciate the idea to wanting to remove the trinity, but ANet seems to have done so without presenting an alternative.

It is worth noting that RPGS (both tabletop and online) existed before the trinity was invented. The trinity was a byproduct of how DIKU muds evolved, but party play predated the trinity for a couple of decades.

GW2 does not play significantly differently from a tabletop RPG (except at a much faster pace and with more movement). There was no thing such as tanking or aggro in D&D, and jokes about Eric the Cleric aside, healing was much too weak to be a significant factor in combat. Yet, these RPGS somehow worked without a trinity.

In GW2, the alternative system is that you are tank, healer, support, and DPS, all rolled into one and that your role can change from one second to the next. That is obviously more effort than just specializing in one single thing, and probably a painful transition for some players.

• Every player is capable of dealing with aggro, so there is no need to keep aggro off other players. Thus there is no need for a dedicated tank. If you have aggro, well, congratulations, you just got promoted to tank (at least for the next few seconds).
• There is no dedicated healer, because players are expected to pool buffs, debuffs, controls, dodge, and kiting abilities to mitigate incoming damage and have self-heals to deal with what is left over.
• If someone did not avoid a mechanic, the responsibility for cleaning up that mistake is not that of a dedicated healer spamming heals, but of everyone who can hit the “F” key to revive. If somebody’s downed near you, congratulations, you just got promoted to healer.

Smiley.1953:

I’m not enjoying the mess that dungeons are now. I apreciate the idea to wanting to remove the trinity, but ANet seems to have done so without presenting an alternative.

I have found from personal experience that a dedicated healer makes dungeons a lot easier. My experiences were similar to the OP, but when I made a ‘full’ (as much as possible) healing spec with all +healing gear on my guardian suddenly dungeons started going a lot smoother. My 4 teammates could focus on their task at hand and not have to constantly worry and have to run out of combat just to not die, and they were glad to know I was watching over their health bars.

Though not intended by ANet, it seems to work better, and was also definatly more enjoyable (for all 5 of us, I sometimes have the idea ANet wants to remove the trinity because they think tanks and healers dont enjoy their job). Its to bad there is not threat system making tanking very viable, and CC is still to short and scarce, so combat will remain a mess.

Oh and no, I dont consider ‘graveyard zerging’ (running from the waypoints to the boss before a resets) a viable alternative to the trinity. I’m not entirely sure what ANets intend is, I hope somebody can enlighten me, because I’m not seeing it.

the alternative is to learn what you’re doing. you can’t be present and help, you have to actually be useful. if you get in a group with bad players, your awsomeness will not help you finish in spite of them, you’ll end up replacing them or you will quit too

they’re simply forcing people to be held accountable or get nothing but a headache in return. i like that. just because 90% of all gamers are pathetic does not mean you should dumb everything down to their level and punish the 10% who care.

at some point the company will either crash and burn or the 90% will start reading tooltips and improve 10 fold with the same effort required to drive down the road.

it’s not that they can’t, it’s that they won’t unless they have to and in guild wars, you have to

if you wanna log in and receive things, wow does that

It is sort of scaring me away from dungeons that people require me to fill a dedicated role and take responsibility in that for every mistake they make WoW-style. People are already spamming chat for Elementalists and Guardians and I am betting on that they require them to be in a certain spec. Sure you could say you don’t need that at all, try to reason about balanced builds, gear and whatnot at the end of the day in these games: Mentality beats Reason.

Ravenblade.7685:

It is sort of scaring me away from dungeons that people require me to fill a dedicated role and take responsibility in that for every mistake they make WoW-style. People are already spamming chat for Elementalists and Guardians and I am betting on that they require them to be in a certain spec. Sure you could say you don’t need that at all, try to reason about balanced builds, gear and whatnot at the end of the day in these games: Mentality beats Reason.

They can try that and ill flat tell them off. Its not my job to clean up after them. If they cant watch there own back im not going to watch it for them.

Bring a Guardian!

No, but really, I had similar problems. Our team just got decimated even on “trash” mobs.
I feel they really did get rid of the “trinity” when it comes to basic PvE, but dungeons seem to be extremely difficult without tanks. As it stands, I think your party needs have builds and traits dedicated just for tackling dungeons. This is kind of problematic because it is costly to reset your traits, and isn’t at all worth it just for the sake of doing one dungeon.

Furthermore, I feel like any kind of melee is incredibly underpowered in dungeons. Just don’t do it. Have your party all used ranged weapons and kite things around. Otherwise, having people using melee weapons just results in them eventually getting agro and getting stomped on because they can’t tank the damage.

IntheCoconut.3497:

Bring a Guardian!

No, but really, I had similar problems. Our team just got decimated even on “trash” mobs.
I feel they really did get rid of the “trinity” when it comes to basic PvE, but dungeons seem to be extremely difficult without tanks. As it stands, I think your party needs have builds and traits dedicated just for tackling dungeons. This is kind of problematic because it is costly to reset your traits, and isn’t at all worth it just for the sake of doing one dungeon.

Furthermore, I feel like any kind of melee is incredibly underpowered in dungeons. Just don’t do it. Have your party all used ranged weapons and kite things around. Otherwise, having people using melee weapons just results in them eventually getting agro and getting stomped on because they can’t tank the damage.

At 80 cost to reset is 3 silver or 3 silver and 50 copper. I make that in 1 or two events currently at 74. Its very very cheap to reset your traits.

SiNoS.2147:

IntheCoconut.3497:

Bring a Guardian!

No, but really, I had similar problems. Our team just got decimated even on “trash” mobs.
I feel they really did get rid of the “trinity” when it comes to basic PvE, but dungeons seem to be extremely difficult without tanks. As it stands, I think your party needs have builds and traits dedicated just for tackling dungeons. This is kind of problematic because it is costly to reset your traits, and isn’t at all worth it just for the sake of doing one dungeon.

Furthermore, I feel like any kind of melee is incredibly underpowered in dungeons. Just don’t do it. Have your party all used ranged weapons and kite things around. Otherwise, having people using melee weapons just results in them eventually getting agro and getting stomped on because they can’t tank the damage.

At 80 cost to reset is 3 silver or 3 silver and 50 copper. I make that in 1 or two events currently at 74. Its very very cheap to reset your traits.

How do you go about resetting traits before level 80 though? The only way I know of is to purchase the trait-training book and its costs a few gold.

IntheCoconut.3497:

SiNoS.2147:

IntheCoconut.3497:

Bring a Guardian!

No, but really, I had similar problems. Our team just got decimated even on “trash” mobs.
I feel they really did get rid of the “trinity” when it comes to basic PvE, but dungeons seem to be extremely difficult without tanks. As it stands, I think your party needs have builds and traits dedicated just for tackling dungeons. This is kind of problematic because it is costly to reset your traits, and isn’t at all worth it just for the sake of doing one dungeon.

Furthermore, I feel like any kind of melee is incredibly underpowered in dungeons. Just don’t do it. Have your party all used ranged weapons and kite things around. Otherwise, having people using melee weapons just results in them eventually getting agro and getting stomped on because they can’t tank the damage.

At 80 cost to reset is 3 silver or 3 silver and 50 copper. I make that in 1 or two events currently at 74. Its very very cheap to reset your traits.

How do you go about resetting traits before level 80 though? The only way I know of is to purchase the trait-training book and its costs a few gold.

Your trainer has 2 options. The 2nd of which is to reset your traits.

I will say one thing regarding ‘forced specs’.

If you’re a ranger, your heal skill in a dungeon is Healing Spring, No exceptions. You will benefit your team more in any way. Troll Unguent will heal YOU for more overall, but Healing Spring will heal everyone, and most importantly, it is a combo field, which means even more healing.

IntheCoconut.3497:

Furthermore, I feel like any kind of melee is incredibly underpowered in dungeons. Just don’t do it. Have your party all used ranged weapons and kite things around. Otherwise, having people using melee weapons just results in them eventually getting agro and getting stomped on because they can’t tank the damage.

Melee may require more skill at dodging, and knowing how to use your debuffs. But it is no where near underpowered. Sure, I’m a guardian. But I’m mainly damage focused. I have some, but not too much, in the way of defensive stats. But I survive just fine by knowing when to blind, managing aegis when I don’t have a blind available, and dodging failing those two. And I know other classes have similar strategies at their disposal.

The main problem is that almost every major enemy in the game and every mob in dungeons can and will one shot anyone isnt tank spec’d and tanks take extra 1 or 2 hits. The idea was to get rid of the need for the trinity… was another game had the trinity but was optional it was called city of heroes. How did they do it? was called stacking support, and controllers… but a bigger underlining issues with the game right now…

it is simply NOT fun to have every enemy just look at you funny and have you drop over dead. I play games because they are fun and frankly… whole concept with pve right now just rubs me the wrong way.

Fact is mobs still have an aggro chart, still attack guy does the most damage, or who is healing the most, they still wipe aggro occasionally the differance is in GW2…you have NO control over this, so if you are spec’d to do damage… expect to die every 2 or 3 seconds. Dodge roll? what happens when you run out of dodge…OH thats right you die… its worse when you realize even basic attacks from these mobs will pretty much insta gib you…

INSTA GIBBING is a terrible mechanic… and simply needs to go the way of the dodo.

Think about the trinity ROLES and what they actually DO.

Tanks = Reduce/mitigate incoming damage/protect others
Healers = Recover damage
DPS = kill stuff

Now in the trinity, you usually only fill ONE role. That is, if you heal, you don’t also DPS as well.

In GW2, you still need to:

Reduce and mitigate incoming damage (by using dodge, kiting, boons like Aegis, reflection/blind AOEs etc)
Recover damage (by using your own healing abilities and reviving downed allies)
Do damage

BUT individual classes aren’t responsible for doing just one of these, instead all classes have some way of doing all of these things.

Now if you think you are with a competent group, that knows to bring the right slot skills and can dodge well etc., then you can probably rely on “just” this to mitigate damage. Otherwise, it’s probably wise to take a bit of Toughness/Vitality.

A big problem is that a lot of people think no trinity = we can all build dps, but dps is part of the trinity itself. It’s fine to focus on DPS, even as a group overall, as long as you have the skills or ability to avoid or mitigate damage as a group as well.

@OP: Ralena and Vassar are much easier when you keep them separated and keep one focused. What this means is you need to use pushbacks, like say Mesmer w/Greatsword. The Boulders nearby also pushback and are reuseable. It may also be possible to separate them using the doors (get one into the corridor and have someone step off the switch, making it 4v1).

I play as a Support Ranger in dungeons and I usually end up with 3-4 dps chars on the team that charge in like there is no tmrw and die in 2-3-4 boss major hits. I can manage to keep them alive or ressurect them well enough so they can go crazy all the way till the end, but I do agree that instagibbing and damage over all should be reduced a bit.

On the other side of the coin… Thoughness and tanky builds should receive considerable buffs as this stat and builds are heavily overshadowed by DPS (glass cannons) in PvE, WvW and PvP. They are only decent in dungeons and that is as far as they go.

Seems that when the description says “No more holy trinity”, people immediately assume they can play whatever build they want.
But instead of having to build tank/healer/dps/support, everyone has to build support and utilize each others AOE :s to create combos.
So, removing holy trinity hasn’t brought more freedom, only different requirements.

I think far better option would be to allow tank/healer builds to people who want to spec as healer or tank (me). This would still allow those that enjoy voice comm guild runs with 5 support chars spam combos and play their style.
Adding holy trinity would permit pug :s play through the dungeons as well (more reliably).

I never understood what’s actually wrong with having dedicated classes.
This is an MMORPG, not everybody is befriended, not everybody uses teamspeak/ventrillo (as there’s a lack of ingame VoIP afaik) and not everybody speaks the same language (for example on european international servers)

Having dedicated classes, everybody knows what his role is.
Without classes, without proper abilities to cover a certain role and without direct communication, it’s more or less pure luck if you succeed in dungeons or not.

But of course … people are new to the game (remember, not everybody player GW and not everybody played Beta), many things are widely unknown and anything you find is always based on lvl 80, which is completely irrelevant if you’re lvl 35 and raise so much in level that it’s absolutely pointless spending even 1 silver on equip …

xnorb.8207:

I never understood what’s actually wrong with having dedicated classes.
This is an MMORPG, not everybody is befriended, not everybody uses teamspeak/ventrillo (as there’s a lack of ingame VoIP afaik) and not everybody speaks the same language (for example on european international servers)

Having dedicated classes, everybody knows what his role is.
Without classes, without proper abilities to cover a certain role and without direct communication, it’s more or less pure luck if you succeed in dungeons or not.

But of course … people are new to the game (remember, not everybody player GW and not everybody played Beta), many things are widely unknown and anything you find is always based on lvl 80, which is completely irrelevant if you’re lvl 35 and raise so much in level that it’s absolutely pointless spending even 1 silver on equip …

1. you would sit in town for 2 hours for healer (almost everyone want to play awesome DPS)
2. some classes are better than others in specific roles
3. its not luck, ppl need to learn to dodge and ress others not only DPS all the time

xnorb.8207:

I never understood what’s actually wrong with having dedicated classes.

Having dedicated classes, everybody knows what his role is.

Having explicitly dedicated tanks and healers means there are two guys who are opposed in roles but conjoined in sharing 80% of the group’s awareness and responsibility for survival and are usually welcome scapegoats and receptacles for abuses and self-serving biases. This and in addition to the classes being more stressful to play usually leads to a lack of than a healthy supply of these classes.

Without classes, without proper abilities to cover a certain role and without direct communication, it’s more or less pure luck if you succeed in dungeons or not.

Depends on how much everyone is willing to adapt and to not turn into a raging dinosaur.

saurus.8290:

1. you would sit in town for 2 hours for healer (almost everyone want to play awesome DPS)
2. some classes are better than others in specific roles
3. its not luck, ppl need to learn to dodge and ress others not only DPS all the time

1. Nope, I’d like to click the LFG tool, get a group, and be teleported to the dungeon
2. So why not allow me to spec a tank with some aggro tools, and let those who want to spec as a DPS to go glass cannon
3. People with same language or guild can still run the instances and rolldodge their hearts content, I don’t want to take that away.

Gutrot.9437:

2. So why not allow me to spec a tank with some aggro tools, and let those who want to spec as a DPS to go glass cannon
3. People with same language or guild can still run the instances and rolldodge their hearts content, I don’t want to take that away.

I don’t see how such a system could exist parallely with one rewarding an ancient mindset. People will always choose and prefer what they are used to. Since that would become a dominating mindset it will become outright obligatory. So the other one goes extinct and in doing so it will defeat one design purpose of the game.

Author of this topic probably was not in Twilight Arbor yet Thats a pain in the * They should seriously nerf it a bit. Doesnt matter if you are Ele or Guardian, 1bad move means insta death there, especially with those blossoms and worms making great aoes at same time while u still must keep focus boss We usually kill this boss with 15-30 deaths…