Guild Wars 2

One thing they could do to even the mesmer/thief fight is give mesmers a reveal ability and also nerf the steal on thief. The steal off mesmer gives thieves a pretty big advantage in these 1v1’s.

I play a Mesmer. I’m gonna put in my 2 cents.

I don’t think Mesmers are “terrible” right now. They can work.

Nevertheless, I don’t think the current risk vs reward with Mesmers is in an ideal spot right now. I’m not sure if people get what I’m saying… maybe you’ll have to play a Mesmer to fully understand what I mean.

Also build diversity is lacking.

Supcutie.2538:

(whereas a mix of Mes/Thief/dps Guard could land damage by porting to the enemy or stealthing to them behind their line of sight).
.

not for long son, LOS patch is coming.

jportell.2197:

So I’ve been told by a few people that have done ESLs/AG etc. That mesmer just “can’t work” anymore. I know people are gonna bring Supcutie/Misha/Helseth etc into this argument about how amazing they are at mesmer and they are great in their team. The point is…

When asking people about forming a team they flat out tell me “play something else.” Not because I’m a bad mesmer, I know I’m not the greatest mesmer but I know that I am not complete garbo. They say it because they and others feel mesmer just doesn’t have anything of value to teams anymore In their opinion just bring two eles with FGS they will match the mobility, and have better sustain. I know that in the past mesmers were great, it took the team building around them, however they were able to contribute a ton to the team if it happened that way.

Now even mentioning the class (along with others I know.), is met with heavy resistance, and if you some how have two on your team. It’s just called out GG before the match even starts.

I’m just wondering why PvP players feel that mesmer can’t work. What should change to make it in the meta? Do the top players not even want mesmers in their teams anymore? What would it take to actually have people say “you play a mesmer cool we need one.” Instead of “Do you play anything else?” as soon as you are on a team.

Kind of a rant, Kind of a question. I know this is a class question in the pvp thread but this is specific to mesmers in PvP.

TLDR: Do you think mesmers need something to be on teams again? Are there others just as frustrated that the class they have spent so many hours trying to become perfected on is just brushed off on the class alone.

Don’t believe everything you hear.

Countless

Trigr.6481:

jportell.2197:

So I’ve been told by a few people that have done ESLs/AG etc. That mesmer just “can’t work” anymore. I know people are gonna bring Supcutie/Misha/Helseth etc into this argument about how amazing they are at mesmer and they are great in their team. The point is…

When asking people about forming a team they flat out tell me “play something else.” Not because I’m a bad mesmer, I know I’m not the greatest mesmer but I know that I am not complete garbo. They say it because they and others feel mesmer just doesn’t have anything of value to teams anymore In their opinion just bring two eles with FGS they will match the mobility, and have better sustain. I know that in the past mesmers were great, it took the team building around them, however they were able to contribute a ton to the team if it happened that way.

Now even mentioning the class (along with others I know.), is met with heavy resistance, and if you some how have two on your team. It’s just called out GG before the match even starts.

I’m just wondering why PvP players feel that mesmer can’t work. What should change to make it in the meta? Do the top players not even want mesmers in their teams anymore? What would it take to actually have people say “you play a mesmer cool we need one.” Instead of “Do you play anything else?” as soon as you are on a team.

Kind of a rant, Kind of a question. I know this is a class question in the pvp thread but this is specific to mesmers in PvP.

TLDR: Do you think mesmers need something to be on teams again? Are there others just as frustrated that the class they have spent so many hours trying to become perfected on is just brushed off on the class alone.

Don’t believe everything you hear.

Countless

Countless doesn’t mean imma stop playing mesmer. Just means its frustrating that that is how people feel about it right now.

This thread is garbage, made by people who have only seen screenshots of thief and mesmer. A well placed eviscerate kills the thief (if they fail to dodge) so to be a good thief you have to be very observant.

I wonder though. If what you crybabies are claiming is true, and the thief is the “master race”, why don’t we see teams with 5 thieves? Since the thief can wreck any class, why bother playing anything else than a thief? Why is it so that a team with 2 or more thieves is at a disadvantage.

Godlike thief yo ….

I’ve seen teams of 5 power rangers completely obliterating Khylo from camp spots, teams of 5 turret engineers completely bunkering down every map. Have yet to see a team of 5 thieves in which they actually win.

You only need to spam your aoes to kill a thief. You don’t even need the bloody target which stealth prevents you from getting.

So hardcore….

Also you complain that thief runs only zerker and wrecks other zerkers. Well newsflash, the thief has NO OTHER viable set up. This is the only role thieves can play in the current meta. They suck at pretty much everything else. Pretty much the reason why you rarely see thieves in dungeon runs. Way too squishy to do kitten.

Ravenmoon.5318:

This thread is garbage, made by people who have only seen screenshots of thief and mesmer. A well placed eviscerate kills the thief (if they fail to dodge) so to be a good thief you have to be very observant.

I wonder though. If what you crybabies are claiming is true, and the thief is the “master race”, why don’t we see teams with 5 thieves? Since the thief can wreck any class, why bother playing anything else than a thief? Why is it so that a team with 2 or more thieves is at a disadvantage.

Yes, the typical standard adhered to for OPness is constructed on the premise that if it can’t be stacked to 5 and win, it’s fine.

Ravenmoon.5318:

I’ve seen teams of 5 power rangers completely obliterating Khylo from camp spots,

Ah yes, the illusive yet dreaded Euratien zord 5-man split.

Larynx.2453:

Ravenmoon.5318:

This thread is garbage, made by people who have only seen screenshots of thief and mesmer. A well placed eviscerate kills the thief (if they fail to dodge) so to be a good thief you have to be very observant.

I wonder though. If what you crybabies are claiming is true, and the thief is the “master race”, why don’t we see teams with 5 thieves? Since the thief can wreck any class, why bother playing anything else than a thief? Why is it so that a team with 2 or more thieves is at a disadvantage.

Yes, the typical standard adhered to for OPness is constructed on the premise that if it can’t be stacked to 5 and win, it’s fine.

Ravenmoon.5318:

I’ve seen teams of 5 power rangers completely obliterating Khylo from camp spots,

Ah yes, the illusive yet dreaded Euratien zord 5-man split.

Utterly bad attempt at troll. Learn to play, talk less, and you might actually start winning vs thieves, lol

Ravenmoon.5318:

Larynx.2453:

Ravenmoon.5318:

This thread is garbage, made by people who have only seen screenshots of thief and mesmer. A well placed eviscerate kills the thief (if they fail to dodge) so to be a good thief you have to be very observant.

I wonder though. If what you crybabies are claiming is true, and the thief is the “master race”, why don’t we see teams with 5 thieves? Since the thief can wreck any class, why bother playing anything else than a thief? Why is it so that a team with 2 or more thieves is at a disadvantage.

Yes, the typical standard adhered to for OPness is constructed on the premise that if it can’t be stacked to 5 and win, it’s fine.

Ravenmoon.5318:

I’ve seen teams of 5 power rangers completely obliterating Khylo from camp spots,

Ah yes, the illusive yet dreaded Euratien zord 5-man split.

Utterly bad attempt at troll. Learn to play, talk less, and you might actually start winning vs thieves, lol

All I’m saying is that you’re the one who claims a team of 5 power rangers is a thing.

I think mesmer can work but people need to forgoe the usual mesmer set-up but that’s just me.

Ravenmoon.5318:

This thread is garbage, made by people who have only seen screenshots of thief and mesmer. A well placed eviscerate kills the thief (if they fail to dodge) so to be a good thief you have to be very observant.

I wonder though. If what you crybabies are claiming is true, and the thief is the “master race”, why don’t we see teams with 5 thieves? Since the thief can wreck any class, why bother playing anything else than a thief? Why is it so that a team with 2 or more thieves is at a disadvantage.

Godlike thief yo ….

I’ve seen teams of 5 power rangers completely obliterating Khylo from camp spots, teams of 5 turret engineers completely bunkering down every map. Have yet to see a team of 5 thieves in which they actually win.

You only need to spam your aoes to kill a thief. You don’t even need the bloody target which stealth prevents you from getting.

So hardcore….

Also you complain that thief runs only zerker and wrecks other zerkers. Well newsflash, the thief has NO OTHER viable set up. This is the only role thieves can play in the current meta. They suck at pretty much everything else. Pretty much the reason why you rarely see thieves in dungeon runs. Way too squishy to do kitten.

Dude. That’s not even the point of this thread.
Also yeah stealth prevents you from getting a target, so does blind. Guess what is required for at least one skill on every mesmer weapon? A target. Guess what thief can spam almost ad infinitum? Stealth and blind which prevent mesmer from even casting their most damaging skills.

Guess which is the only weapon mesmer can use that doesn’t require a target for its AA, Sword. Guess which weapon is one of the least used by shatter mesmers currently because they cannot survive in melee at all.

Yes I think the thief v mesmer match up needs looked at. No I don’t think one specific thing on thief needs nerfed. Yes I do think mesmer needs some form of buff at least in its ability to disengage from a fight/thief.

This isn’t so much a QQ thread as it is asking people why they think mesmer isn’t used as much in current conquest pvp compared to other classes, (yes I know necro and ranger are hurting they at least have more than one build that has seen high end play tho.) And if mesmer should receive something to make them more appealing to a team.

Seriously stop interjecting with random hyperbole.

jportell.2197:

Ravenmoon.5318:

This thread is garbage, made by people who have only seen screenshots of thief and mesmer. A well placed eviscerate kills the thief (if they fail to dodge) so to be a good thief you have to be very observant.

I wonder though. If what you crybabies are claiming is true, and the thief is the “master race”, why don’t we see teams with 5 thieves? Since the thief can wreck any class, why bother playing anything else than a thief? Why is it so that a team with 2 or more thieves is at a disadvantage.

Godlike thief yo ….

I’ve seen teams of 5 power rangers completely obliterating Khylo from camp spots, teams of 5 turret engineers completely bunkering down every map. Have yet to see a team of 5 thieves in which they actually win.

You only need to spam your aoes to kill a thief. You don’t even need the bloody target which stealth prevents you from getting.

So hardcore….

Also you complain that thief runs only zerker and wrecks other zerkers. Well newsflash, the thief has NO OTHER viable set up. This is the only role thieves can play in the current meta. They suck at pretty much everything else. Pretty much the reason why you rarely see thieves in dungeon runs. Way too squishy to do kitten.

Dude. That’s not even the point of this thread.
Also yeah stealth prevents you from getting a target, so does blind. Guess what is required for at least one skill on every mesmer weapon? A target. Guess what thief can spam almost ad infinitum? Stealth and blind which prevent mesmer from even casting their most damaging skills.

Guess which is the only weapon mesmer can use that doesn’t require a target for its AA, Sword. Guess which weapon is one of the least used by shatter mesmers currently because they cannot survive in melee at all.

Yes I think the thief v mesmer match up needs looked at. No I don’t think one specific thing on thief needs nerfed. Yes I do think mesmer needs some form of buff at least in its ability to disengage from a fight/thief.

This isn’t so much a QQ thread as it is asking people why they think mesmer isn’t used as much in current conquest pvp compared to other classes, (yes I know necro and ranger are hurting they at least have more than one build that has seen high end play tho.) And if mesmer should receive something to make them more appealing to a team.

Seriously stop interjecting with random hyperbole.

Thieves can’t spam stealth and blinds “ad infinitum” (you know there is perfect english construct for what you are trying to say right?) if they want to be viable. Blind doesn’t prevent you from getting a target, blind makes you miss once… D/P has some spamability but they quickly run out of initiative. Once that happens I’m pretty sure even a kindergardener can defeat the said thief. Also SA thieves are terribad.

And, IMO, mesmer isn’t used as much as thief is only because its not as solo friendly as the thief. You don’t need your team 90% of the time as a thief. You need your team all the time as a mesmer due to the boon you provide and the sustain you would need.

Thief have always needed and still need huge nerfs.
Highest mobility class must never be the hardcounter of anything.
Anet was not able to manage this in two years.
I don’t know if they are blind or if they just simply can’t due to awfull and broken initiative design.
Little tip for you anet…spammable skills must never be powerfull.

Kicast.1459:

Thief have always needed and still need huge nerfs.
Highest mobility class must never be the hardcounter of anything.
Anet was not able to manage this in two years.
I don’t know if they are blind or if they just simply can’t due to awfull and broken initiative design.
Little tip for you anet…spammable skills must never be powerfull.

And the thief shouldn’t die in 2 crits but hey, it is what it is. If you can’t land 2 crits, that’s your fault. Live by the sword, die by the sword, lol

Just keep in mind that competitively, thieves rarely fight 1on1, if at all. Its the class that was forced to learn to disengage and do more useful things than fighting.

Just do a forum search and you’ll find tons of threads explaining that thieves should +1 fights and run points. If this is op then well, uninstall Gw2, lol

There even was a guy here posting last week believing he is doing something wrong as a thief and asked for help and the majority of replies reminded him of this sad truth. Because thief has been getting the nerf bat for the past 2 years and they have 2 viable builds, both being extremely squishy.

Ravenmoon.5318:

Kicast.1459:

Thief have always needed and still need huge nerfs.
Highest mobility class must never be the hardcounter of anything.
Anet was not able to manage this in two years.
I don’t know if they are blind or if they just simply can’t due to awfull and broken initiative design.
Little tip for you anet…spammable skills must never be powerfull.

And the thief shouldn’t die in 2 crits but hey, it is what it is. If you can’t land 2 crits, that’s your fault. Live by the sword, die by the sword, lol

Yes it should…like other zerkers.
And thief is still one of the hardest class to down when well played.
But you are obviously not aware on what a good thief can do.

Kicast.1459:

Ravenmoon.5318:

Kicast.1459:

Thief have always needed and still need huge nerfs.
Highest mobility class must never be the hardcounter of anything.
Anet was not able to manage this in two years.
I don’t know if they are blind or if they just simply can’t due to awfull and broken initiative design.
Little tip for you anet…spammable skills must never be powerfull.

And the thief shouldn’t die in 2 crits but hey, it is what it is. If you can’t land 2 crits, that’s your fault. Live by the sword, die by the sword, lol

Yes it should…like other zerkers.
And thief is still one of the hardest class to down when well played.
But you are obviously not aware on what a good thief can do.

You clearly don’t know how immobilize works.

PSA: You can completely wreck a thief with aoe while they refuge.

Ravenmoon.5318:

Kicast.1459:

Ravenmoon.5318:

Kicast.1459:

Thief have always needed and still need huge nerfs.
Highest mobility class must never be the hardcounter of anything.
Anet was not able to manage this in two years.
I don’t know if they are blind or if they just simply can’t due to awfull and broken initiative design.
Little tip for you anet…spammable skills must never be powerfull.

And the thief shouldn’t die in 2 crits but hey, it is what it is. If you can’t land 2 crits, that’s your fault. Live by the sword, die by the sword, lol

Yes it should…like other zerkers.
And thief is still one of the hardest class to down when well played.
But you are obviously not aware on what a good thief can do.

You clearly don’t know how immobilize works.

Agains’t s/d thief… Tell me how well immob works.

jportell.2197:

Ravenmoon.5318:

Kicast.1459:

Ravenmoon.5318:

Kicast.1459:

Thief have always needed and still need huge nerfs.
Highest mobility class must never be the hardcounter of anything.
Anet was not able to manage this in two years.
I don’t know if they are blind or if they just simply can’t due to awfull and broken initiative design.
Little tip for you anet…spammable skills must never be powerfull.

And the thief shouldn’t die in 2 crits but hey, it is what it is. If you can’t land 2 crits, that’s your fault. Live by the sword, die by the sword, lol

Yes it should…like other zerkers.
And thief is still one of the hardest class to down when well played.
But you are obviously not aware on what a good thief can do.

You clearly don’t know how immobilize works.

Agains’t s/d thief… Tell me how well immob works.

S/D damage is meh at best anyway … should all thieves switch to condi so you would feel less whiny, lol o.O

A good hambow will completely negate S/D thief.

Do you realize that a power ranger does more damage with bow than a thief with 2 pistols and has more defensive cleave than one.

S/D is going lengths to keep you dazed and immobilized, its not for everyone, thus the D/P is the meta at the moment. Which is extremely glassy

Ravenmoon.5318:

jportell.2197:

Ravenmoon.5318:

Kicast.1459:

Ravenmoon.5318:

Kicast.1459:

Thief have always needed and still need huge nerfs.
Highest mobility class must never be the hardcounter of anything.
Anet was not able to manage this in two years.
I don’t know if they are blind or if they just simply can’t due to awfull and broken initiative design.
Little tip for you anet…spammable skills must never be powerfull.

And the thief shouldn’t die in 2 crits but hey, it is what it is. If you can’t land 2 crits, that’s your fault. Live by the sword, die by the sword, lol

Yes it should…like other zerkers.
And thief is still one of the hardest class to down when well played.
But you are obviously not aware on what a good thief can do.

You clearly don’t know how immobilize works.

Agains’t s/d thief… Tell me how well immob works.

S/D damage is meh at best anyway … should all thieves switch to condi so you would feel less whiny, lol o.O

A good hambow will completely negate S/D thief.

Do you realize that a power ranger does more damage with bow than a thief with 2 pistols and has more defensive cleave than one.

Ok thank you for your feedback.
Thief does not anihilate mesmer because of hambow.
Good demonstration…and obvious fairness arguments….
I would say….thief spotted ;-)

Kicast.1459:

Ravenmoon.5318:

jportell.2197:

Ravenmoon.5318:

Kicast.1459:

Ravenmoon.5318:

Kicast.1459:

Thief have always needed and still need huge nerfs.
Highest mobility class must never be the hardcounter of anything.
Anet was not able to manage this in two years.
I don’t know if they are blind or if they just simply can’t due to awfull and broken initiative design.
Little tip for you anet…spammable skills must never be powerfull.

And the thief shouldn’t die in 2 crits but hey, it is what it is. If you can’t land 2 crits, that’s your fault. Live by the sword, die by the sword, lol

Yes it should…like other zerkers.
And thief is still one of the hardest class to down when well played.
But you are obviously not aware on what a good thief can do.

You clearly don’t know how immobilize works.

Agains’t s/d thief… Tell me how well immob works.

S/D damage is meh at best anyway … should all thieves switch to condi so you would feel less whiny, lol o.O

A good hambow will completely negate S/D thief.

Do you realize that a power ranger does more damage with bow than a thief with 2 pistols and has more defensive cleave than one.

Ok thank you for your feedback.
Thief does not anihilate mesmer because of hambow.
Good demonstration…and obvious fairness arguments….
I would say….thief spotted ;-)

Hmmmm, Is it really that hard to understand that sPvP and Gw2’s pvp in general is not meant to be 1on1? Yes the thief has the upper hand vs mesmer.

Guess what, DPS guardian wrecks thief. Do we y’all complain now that DPS guard is too bursty now or what?

Part of L2P is to pick your fights. Part of L2P is to bait players to your team. Part of L2P is to keep yourself alive while you are at it. L2P is not always an alias for noob.

If you go guns blazing in a every fight and you think you are entitled to a win just because you pressed 5 buttons, you’re doing it wrong.

P.S: I have yet to see a thief beating my bunker guard. After 2-3 minutes they just give up and move on.

OMGLOL buff thief, guardian too op…

P.S: Have you seen any traps thieves lately? Or venom thieves in that matter. Yeah, thief is not crippled class at all.

jportell.2197:

Trigr.6481:

jportell.2197:

So I’ve been told by a few people that have done ESLs/AG etc. That mesmer just “can’t work” anymore. I know people are gonna bring Supcutie/Misha/Helseth etc into this argument about how amazing they are at mesmer and they are great in their team. The point is…

When asking people about forming a team they flat out tell me “play something else.” Not because I’m a bad mesmer, I know I’m not the greatest mesmer but I know that I am not complete garbo. They say it because they and others feel mesmer just doesn’t have anything of value to teams anymore In their opinion just bring two eles with FGS they will match the mobility, and have better sustain. I know that in the past mesmers were great, it took the team building around them, however they were able to contribute a ton to the team if it happened that way.

Now even mentioning the class (along with others I know.), is met with heavy resistance, and if you some how have two on your team. It’s just called out GG before the match even starts.

I’m just wondering why PvP players feel that mesmer can’t work. What should change to make it in the meta? Do the top players not even want mesmers in their teams anymore? What would it take to actually have people say “you play a mesmer cool we need one.” Instead of “Do you play anything else?” as soon as you are on a team.

Kind of a rant, Kind of a question. I know this is a class question in the pvp thread but this is specific to mesmers in PvP.

TLDR: Do you think mesmers need something to be on teams again? Are there others just as frustrated that the class they have spent so many hours trying to become perfected on is just brushed off on the class alone.

Don’t believe everything you hear.

Countless

Countless doesn’t mean imma stop playing mesmer. Just means its frustrating that that is how people feel about it right now.

True, I can understand where it can be frustrating. However the majority of people in this game are very narrow minded when it comes to what’s viable and what isn’t. Not to mention that the community itself is very miniscule. Believe it or not mesmer can work. However I feel it requires more of a specific comp as compared to other classes.

Countless

Trigr.6481:

jportell.2197:

Trigr.6481:

jportell.2197:

So I’ve been told by a few people that have done ESLs/AG etc. That mesmer just “can’t work” anymore. I know people are gonna bring Supcutie/Misha/Helseth etc into this argument about how amazing they are at mesmer and they are great in their team. The point is…

When asking people about forming a team they flat out tell me “play something else.” Not because I’m a bad mesmer, I know I’m not the greatest mesmer but I know that I am not complete garbo. They say it because they and others feel mesmer just doesn’t have anything of value to teams anymore In their opinion just bring two eles with FGS they will match the mobility, and have better sustain. I know that in the past mesmers were great, it took the team building around them, however they were able to contribute a ton to the team if it happened that way.

Now even mentioning the class (along with others I know.), is met with heavy resistance, and if you some how have two on your team. It’s just called out GG before the match even starts.

I’m just wondering why PvP players feel that mesmer can’t work. What should change to make it in the meta? Do the top players not even want mesmers in their teams anymore? What would it take to actually have people say “you play a mesmer cool we need one.” Instead of “Do you play anything else?” as soon as you are on a team.

Kind of a rant, Kind of a question. I know this is a class question in the pvp thread but this is specific to mesmers in PvP.

TLDR: Do you think mesmers need something to be on teams again? Are there others just as frustrated that the class they have spent so many hours trying to become perfected on is just brushed off on the class alone.

Don’t believe everything you hear.

Countless

Countless doesn’t mean imma stop playing mesmer. Just means its frustrating that that is how people feel about it right now.

True, I can understand where it can be frustrating. However the majority of people in this game are very narrow minded when it comes to what’s viable and what isn’t. Not to mention that the community itself is very miniscule. Believe it or not mesmer can work. However I feel it requires more of a specific comp as compared to other classes.

Countless

Which is kind of my point. Most and (not all) other classes have builds that don’t require baby sitting or building an entire team around to make work. People aren’t a fan of mesmer in their team because they feel its going to force them to change their build/or class just to make sure that mesmer can stay alive long enough to do its job.

Trigr.6481:

True, I can understand where it can be frustrating. However the majority of people in this game are very narrow minded when it comes to what’s viable and what isn’t. Not to mention that the community itself is very miniscule. Believe it or not mesmer can work. However I feel it requires more of a specific comp as compared to other classes.

Countless

This is the best and the more honest response in this tread.
Mesmer can work. It just needs diferent comp.

jportell.2197:

Which is kind of my point. Most and (not all) other classes have builds that don’t require baby sitting or building an entire team around to make work. People aren’t a fan of mesmer in their team because they feel its going to force them to change their build/or class just to make sure that mesmer can stay alive long enough to do its job.

I can kind of emphasize with this considering that I love playing nearly every class, with a main top three being Ele, War and Necro…

The latter of course is something I only use under special conditions, and if these are not met in the team, I will switch to a class that fits the comp better… It sometimes does annoy me however, since I get the feeling as if I cannot rely on some people to do well (Mostly counts for pugs, and less so in premades), or if the enemy team has some notorious players which know the weakness of the class, making me food…

However, I do believe that if you can find the right people to play with, your frustrations can suddenly turn into joy again, as you maximize your capabilities to the max – And this is something I rarely achieve on most classes (Especially if I just play Rezzbot or Super-Soaker with waterfields here and there)…

And who knows what HoT and Stronghold will bring – despite the Shield not being the most attractive thing, the Specialization might just be your ticket to become a force to be reckoned with (I personally hope on time-based magic) – or the class balance might just turn into favour of the classes who need to be worked around with at the moment, with you having an edge already however considering you know your class like no other

stop mentioning “elite” levels of play when it comes to class balance

there is a reason those handful of classes are chosen everywhere: that’s what their classes are designed to fight. the meta is designed to fight the meta, it’s not a end-all, be-all of class builds. when a non-meta(or simply less common meta builds) appears, most of these “elite” users panic and make amateur mistakes(see: Abjured vs. oRNG).

arron.7348:

stop mentioning “elite” levels of play when it comes to class balance

there is a reason those handful of classes are chosen everywhere: that’s what their classes are designed to fight. the meta is designed to fight the meta, it’s not a end-all, be-all of class builds. when a non-meta(or simply less common meta builds) appears, most of these “elite” users panic and make amateur mistakes(see: Abjured vs. oRNG).

Are you implying that either of those teams did rookie mistakes? Because the first 3 matches were so kitten close, you couldn’t tell who was going to win until the winner was announced, not to mention that oRNG’s first game was pure luck. As European myself, cheering for oRNG of course, both teams did exceptional gameplay and either one of them could’ve gotten the WTS.

Ravenmoon.5318:

Kicast.1459:

Ravenmoon.5318:

jportell.2197:

Ravenmoon.5318:

Kicast.1459:

Ravenmoon.5318:

Kicast.1459:

Thief have always needed and still need huge nerfs.
Highest mobility class must never be the hardcounter of anything.
Anet was not able to manage this in two years.
I don’t know if they are blind or if they just simply can’t due to awfull and broken initiative design.
Little tip for you anet…spammable skills must never be powerfull.

And the thief shouldn’t die in 2 crits but hey, it is what it is. If you can’t land 2 crits, that’s your fault. Live by the sword, die by the sword, lol

Yes it should…like other zerkers.
And thief is still one of the hardest class to down when well played.
But you are obviously not aware on what a good thief can do.

You clearly don’t know how immobilize works.

Agains’t s/d thief… Tell me how well immob works.

S/D damage is meh at best anyway … should all thieves switch to condi so you would feel less whiny, lol o.O

A good hambow will completely negate S/D thief.

Do you realize that a power ranger does more damage with bow than a thief with 2 pistols and has more defensive cleave than one.

Ok thank you for your feedback.
Thief does not anihilate mesmer because of hambow.
Good demonstration…and obvious fairness arguments….
I would say….thief spotted ;-)

Hmmmm, Is it really that hard to understand that sPvP and Gw2’s pvp in general is not meant to be 1on1? Yes the thief has the upper hand vs mesmer.

Guess what, DPS guardian wrecks thief. Do we y’all complain now that DPS guard is too bursty now or what?

Part of L2P is to pick your fights. Part of L2P is to bait players to your team. Part of L2P is to keep yourself alive while you are at it. L2P is not always an alias for noob.

If you go guns blazing in a every fight and you think you are entitled to a win just because you pressed 5 buttons, you’re doing it wrong.

P.S: I have yet to see a thief beating my bunker guard. After 2-3 minutes they just give up and move on.

OMGLOL buff thief, guardian too op…

P.S: Have you seen any traps thieves lately? Or venom thieves in that matter. Yeah, thief is not crippled class at all.

You are perfectly right. This game is not balanced around 1v1. Thieves are bad at 1v1 against almost every class/spec but the shatter mesmer. Thieves have been hit by the nerf bat. Thieves have only 2 viable builds at high end play (however if you notice, that is the same for every single class).

However, do read the replies above you more closely. The issue isn’t so much that THIEF REKTZ SHATTER MESMER 1V1 QQ LOLOL. The issues are:

1) While the thief is bad at 1v1, THAT IS NOT THE JOB OF THE ROAMER. The job of the roamer is to exploit opportunities for backcapping and to +1 fights. The thief is simply the BEST class there is for this essential job. That is why the thief has been in the meta ever since Gw2 competitive pvp became a thing. The mesmer, which atm can ONLY fulfill the role of the roamer, is out-competed for this spot.

2) The only times roamers are expected to 1v1 is when they go for a side point decap and the other team’s roamer – which should be the fastest member of the opposing team assuming FGS is on cooldown – comes to stop them. And if one is a thief, and the other is a mesmer, guess who will win? If you have to choose exactly one roamer for your team, which class will you choose?

3) Even in teamfights which this game is apparently balanced around, the team with the mesmer requires a ton more babysitting than the team with the thief does, simply because the thief chooses when and where to gank the mesmer due to its superior stealth, teleports and mobility.

No one is saying that the thief is a godlike class and you can “Win with a team with 5 thieves”. All people are saying, and have been saying for a long time btw, is that in a game mode where you need at least one roamer, that role will always first and foremost be filled by a thief because any other option is just inferior. Even if the team decides to have more than one zerker class in the comp, because the thief is so strong against other meta zerker specs aside from the meditation guardian, the enemy team either

1) Enlists a class (Shatter mes, S/F ele) that is hard-countered by the thief and babysits him all day or
2) Just gets a medi guard or cele engi that is more effective and is not hard countered by the thief.

Most teams choose option 2, which results in the situation today.

Also, many people have suggested that mesmer needs an alternate composition to work, but have not provided any examples of such a composition. Would anyone care to suggest one?

Selya.5039:

Also, many people have suggested that mesmer needs an alternate composition to work, but have not provided any examples of such a composition. Would anyone care to suggest one?

Supcutie tried hard…and didn’t succeed according to previous thread he made.
But I am pretty sure all these poor thiefs will shortly explain him how to l2p….

Kicast.1459:

Selya.5039:

Also, many people have suggested that mesmer needs an alternate composition to work, but have not provided any examples of such a composition. Would anyone care to suggest one?

Supcutie tried hard…and didn’t succeed according to previous thread he made.
But I am pretty sure all these poor thiefs will shortly explain him how to l2p….

He did play mesmer on the WTS against apparently a thief. The only reason he switched to thief is because his system malfunctioned and couldn’t use the mouse bindings so he had to use something else. I don’t know what you are refering too. Strawman argument much?

Ravenmoon.5318:

My god i swear some mesmer players are terribad. More balance to the fight vs thief? Seriously? Learn to freaking play. I don’t know how many times a mesmer has had me on the defensive (pretty much disengaging because death inbound).

As a thief, i still consider the mesmer one of the harder classes to fight against. So quit your whining, watch some LordHelseth vids and git gud.

Ravenmoon.5318:

Hmmmm, Is it really that hard to understand that sPvP and Gw2’s pvp in general is not meant to be 1on1? Yes the thief has the upper hand vs mesmer

What happened? Did you “git gud” overnight?

Ravenmoon.5318:

Kicast.1459:

Selya.5039:

Also, many people have suggested that mesmer needs an alternate composition to work, but have not provided any examples of such a composition. Would anyone care to suggest one?

Supcutie tried hard…and didn’t succeed according to previous thread he made.
But I am pretty sure all these poor thiefs will shortly explain him how to l2p….

He did play mesmer on the WTS against apparently a thief. The only reason he switched to thief is because his system malfunctioned and couldn’t use the mouse bindings so he had to use something else. I don’t know what you are refering too. Strawman argument much?

Supcutie.2538:

… I was addressing why I went Thief in the WTS…
Technically though, Thief was better, if you’re wondering. I was only playing Mesmer the whole time because I wanted to and I was sick of going Thief, but I think technically I was gimping my team. If I was an excellent Thief (and I’m not too terrible, I just hadn’t played Thief competitively in a while) the comp would have been better, and that’s what I’ve done for almost all of my competitive teams in the past. I just wanted to play Mesmer this time.

Concluding thoughts:
1. Thief is still strong, Mesmer is still strong. Thief simply offers more for the slot on the team compared to other classes in the vast majority of cases.
2. Condi/Cele comps are easier to run for equal or greater success rates compared to zerker, specifically power classes other than Thief (you can check my post history to find some more in-depth explanation for this). – This is why often times you hear the thought that while Mesmer is good, there are usually better choices. “Better” meaning having higher room for error with equal or greater success for equal or less player skill input.
…

In this thread by Supcutie himself….but maybe u did not read cautiously…

jportell.2197:

What should change to make it in the meta?

The sPvP tier used when balancing the whole class.

Currently it is the lowest common denominator: newbies who panic when they see a mesmer, cannot tell a clone apart from the real one, die, and then come to rage and QQ on the official forum.

Should be? Top tier. At top tier, all mesmer tricks are very well known, and the slightest mistake in your actions will be exploited, and you will be rendered useless. At this level of class mastery, you will simply be of more value on other classes – and that’s what we have.

Noss.4105:

Ravenmoon.5318:

My god i swear some mesmer players are terribad. More balance to the fight vs thief? Seriously? Learn to freaking play. I don’t know how many times a mesmer has had me on the defensive (pretty much disengaging because death inbound).

As a thief, i still consider the mesmer one of the harder classes to fight against. So quit your whining, watch some LordHelseth vids and git gud.

Ravenmoon.5318:

Hmmmm, Is it really that hard to understand that sPvP and Gw2’s pvp in general is not meant to be 1on1? Yes the thief has the upper hand vs mesmer

What happened? Did you “git gud” overnight?

Well, upper hand doesn’t ensure a win. You could say that D/P has the upper hand against S/D thief, but go ahead and tell that to all D/P thieves i’ve layed to waste

Ravenmoon.5318:

jportell.2197:

Ravenmoon.5318:

This thread is garbage, made by people who have only seen screenshots of thief and mesmer. A well placed eviscerate kills the thief (if they fail to dodge) so to be a good thief you have to be very observant.

I wonder though. If what you crybabies are claiming is true, and the thief is the “master race”, why don’t we see teams with 5 thieves? Since the thief can wreck any class, why bother playing anything else than a thief? Why is it so that a team with 2 or more thieves is at a disadvantage.

Godlike thief yo ….

I’ve seen teams of 5 power rangers completely obliterating Khylo from camp spots, teams of 5 turret engineers completely bunkering down every map. Have yet to see a team of 5 thieves in which they actually win.

You only need to spam your aoes to kill a thief. You don’t even need the bloody target which stealth prevents you from getting.

So hardcore….

Also you complain that thief runs only zerker and wrecks other zerkers. Well newsflash, the thief has NO OTHER viable set up. This is the only role thieves can play in the current meta. They suck at pretty much everything else. Pretty much the reason why you rarely see thieves in dungeon runs. Way too squishy to do kitten.

Dude. That’s not even the point of this thread.
Also yeah stealth prevents you from getting a target, so does blind. Guess what is required for at least one skill on every mesmer weapon? A target. Guess what thief can spam almost ad infinitum? Stealth and blind which prevent mesmer from even casting their most damaging skills.

Guess which is the only weapon mesmer can use that doesn’t require a target for its AA, Sword. Guess which weapon is one of the least used by shatter mesmers currently because they cannot survive in melee at all.

Yes I think the thief v mesmer match up needs looked at. No I don’t think one specific thing on thief needs nerfed. Yes I do think mesmer needs some form of buff at least in its ability to disengage from a fight/thief.

This isn’t so much a QQ thread as it is asking people why they think mesmer isn’t used as much in current conquest pvp compared to other classes, (yes I know necro and ranger are hurting they at least have more than one build that has seen high end play tho.) And if mesmer should receive something to make them more appealing to a team.

Seriously stop interjecting with random hyperbole.

Thieves can’t spam stealth and blinds “ad infinitum” (you know there is perfect english construct for what you are trying to say right?) if they want to be viable. Blind doesn’t prevent you from getting a target, blind makes you miss once… D/P has some spamability but they quickly run out of initiative. Once that happens I’m pretty sure even a kindergardener can defeat the said thief. Also SA thieves are terribad.

And, IMO, mesmer isn’t used as much as thief is only because its not as solo friendly as the thief. You don’t need your team 90% of the time as a thief. You need your team all the time as a mesmer due to the boon you provide and the sustain you would need.

LOL phantasms have a lenghty 1 second cast with an obvious animation and comprise the entirety of a mesmer’s sustained damage when they’re not bursting with shatters. With the amount of blinds not to mention headshot a thief can use, it isn’t even a question of how hard a thief can shut down a mesmer.

Unfortunately the builds that deal with thief better, like phantasms and condi stealth bunkers like PU or CI, happen to be garbage builds for point holding and team fights.

Lishtenbird.2814:

jportell.2197:

What should change to make it in the meta?

The sPvP tier used when balancing the whole class.

Currently it is the lowest common denominator: newbies who panic when they see a mesmer, cannot tell a clone apart from the real one, die, and then come to rage and QQ on the official forum.

Should be? Top tier. At top tier, all mesmer tricks are very well known, and the slightest mistake in your actions will be exploited, and you will be rendered useless. At this level of class mastery, you will simply be of more value on other classes – and that’s what we have.

+1000

Ravenmoon, you’re making quite the fool of yourself. You’re telling people to “L2P”, and then you go on to say that you struggle versus mesmers, that too on SD Thief, which counters Mesmer to an incredible extent. Then you go on to rant about some random stuff and spread misinformation. You’re essentially one of those people that think they’re good but you actually aren’t.

In terms of making thief less of a counter, I think consume plasma should just be removed and replaced by something crappy, won’t be much of a nerf to thief but it’ll help mesmers in that matchup a lot. That would be a good first step.

Elitist.8701:

Ravenmoon, you’re making quite the fool of yourself. You’re telling people to “L2P”, and then you go on to say that you struggle versus mesmers, that too on SD Thief, which counters Mesmer to an incredible extent. Then you go on to rant about some random stuff and spread misinformation. You’re essentially one of those people that think they’re good but you actually aren’t.

In terms of making thief less of a counter, I think consume plasma should just be removed and replaced by something crappy, won’t be much of a nerf to thief but it’ll help mesmers in that matchup a lot. That would be a good first step.

Realtalk Right here. Ravenmoon is one of those “I do not want to listen to your arguments, but I sense its an attack directed to my class, so L2P”

Mesmer is my favorite class, PvE and PvP. Thief is a close second.

Having said that it feels as if ANET dislikes Mesmers in general. The nerf hammer falls the moment we get an edge anywhere. Warrior Hambow went un nerfed for months it seemed. Mesmer PowerLock was nerfed in minutes.

I don’t see any real advantage to playing Mesmer in solo queue, no special talent that is really impressive. When I play Mesmer I go in knowing I’ll probably get beaten up pretty good. The only real reason to play a Mesmer in PvP right now is because you like Mesmer.

Shatter can deliver a lot of damage but it’s very easy to miss and hit like a kitten.

-addendum- Clone Death Condi with scepter / torch / staff will work ’ some ’ of the time but you will lose more often than not 1v1 and you will almost certainly lose to a thief.

Ravenmoon.5318:

jportell.2197:

Ravenmoon.5318:

Kicast.1459:

Ravenmoon.5318:

Kicast.1459:

Thief have always needed and still need huge nerfs.
Highest mobility class must never be the hardcounter of anything.
Anet was not able to manage this in two years.
I don’t know if they are blind or if they just simply can’t due to awfull and broken initiative design.
Little tip for you anet…spammable skills must never be powerfull.

And the thief shouldn’t die in 2 crits but hey, it is what it is. If you can’t land 2 crits, that’s your fault. Live by the sword, die by the sword, lol

Yes it should…like other zerkers.
And thief is still one of the hardest class to down when well played.
But you are obviously not aware on what a good thief can do.

You clearly don’t know how immobilize works.

Agains’t s/d thief… Tell me how well immob works.

S/D damage is meh at best anyway … should all thieves switch to condi so you would feel less whiny, lol o.O

A good hambow will completely negate S/D thief.

Do you realize that a power ranger does more damage with bow than a thief with 2 pistols and has more defensive cleave than one.

S/D is going lengths to keep you dazed and immobilized, its not for everyone, thus the D/P is the meta at the moment. Which is extremely glassy

sorry but, hambow doesnt kill s/d, hambow kill d/p at best with berserker stance off CD, any s/d that knows how to dodge properly can completely avoid any hambow damage other then fire field.

also, DP doesnt really have upper hand against SD, 52 combo can be easily interrupted using steal, and evade spam highly increase the chance of avoiding DP’s steal.

So an Idea i was mulling over was this. It isn’t a massive “buff” to mesmers as it were but an idea to open up more build diversity.

Way back when many moons ago, deceptive evasion was a minor trait in dueling. It was a 15 point (or 3 point now.)

I’m proposing changing that back. However, not in dueling. Make it the 3 point minor in illusions. Remove illusionist’s celerity all together and reduce illusion cooldowns across the board.

The point of this is not necessarily to buff mesmers (even tho I see it as such.), but to open up build diversity.

Ever since launch at the top level of play mesmers have had only one build. Just one. This has not changed since the launch of the game. If you look at almost any other class they have had a minimum of two truly competitive builds. Mesmer build diversity is by far the worst in the game. It has never seen anything besides shatter at the highest tier of play. The only change that has been seen build wise for mesmers that put them in a better spot, was the introduction of halting strike.

I think such type (active – clone spawning) of traits should be selectable/major. MB just swap it with blade training (make BT master trait like other mesm weapons CD triats) or other adept trait?

EDIT. I thoight again – your suggestion is better. Anyway illusion line goes for shatters
EDIT 2. And again – mine still better

jportell.2197:

So an Idea i was mulling over was this. It isn’t a massive “buff” to mesmers as it were but an idea to open up more build diversity.

Way back when many moons ago, deceptive evasion was a minor trait in dueling. It was a 15 point (or 3 point now.)

I’m proposing changing that back. However, not in dueling. Make it the 3 point minor in illusions. Remove illusionist’s celerity all together and reduce illusion cooldowns across the board.

The point of this is not necessarily to buff mesmers (even tho I see it as such.), but to open up build diversity.

Ever since launch at the top level of play mesmers have had only one build. Just one. This has not changed since the launch of the game. If you look at almost any other class they have had a minimum of two truly competitive builds. Mesmer build diversity is by far the worst in the game. It has never seen anything besides shatter at the highest tier of play. The only change that has been seen build wise for mesmers that put them in a better spot, was the introduction of halting strike.

This would merely change the status quo from a compulsory 4 points in dueling compulsory for all builds except phantasms to a compulsory 3 points in illusions. While this would be a huge buff to shatter since shatter goes 6 points into illusions anyway, other builds, most prominently 4/4/6/0/0 interrupt builds, would suffer greatly since 3 points into illusions is inferior stat wise and adept trait choice wise compared with 4 points into dueling.

Imo, just change deceptive evasion to an adept trait in dueling (i.e. requires 2 points). Most pvp mesmers would go at least one point into dueling anyway for vigor on crit. Some people have suggested making deceptive evasion inherent to the class as a secondary profession mechanic. However, this would work only if you could turn the mechanic off whenever you want, as PVE mesmers do NOT want deceptive evasion.

Selya.5039:

jportell.2197:

So an Idea i was mulling over was this. It isn’t a massive “buff” to mesmers as it were but an idea to open up more build diversity.

Way back when many moons ago, deceptive evasion was a minor trait in dueling. It was a 15 point (or 3 point now.)

I’m proposing changing that back. However, not in dueling. Make it the 3 point minor in illusions. Remove illusionist’s celerity all together and reduce illusion cooldowns across the board.

The point of this is not necessarily to buff mesmers (even tho I see it as such.), but to open up build diversity.

Ever since launch at the top level of play mesmers have had only one build. Just one. This has not changed since the launch of the game. If you look at almost any other class they have had a minimum of two truly competitive builds. Mesmer build diversity is by far the worst in the game. It has never seen anything besides shatter at the highest tier of play. The only change that has been seen build wise for mesmers that put them in a better spot, was the introduction of halting strike.

This would merely change the status quo from a compulsory 4 points in dueling compulsory for all builds except phantasms to a compulsory 3 points in illusions. While this would be a huge buff to shatter since shatter goes 6 points into illusions anyway, other builds, most prominently 4/4/6/0/0 interrupt builds, would suffer greatly since 3 points into illusions is inferior stat wise and adept trait choice wise compared with 4 points into dueling.

Imo, just change deceptive evasion to an adept trait in dueling (i.e. requires 2 points). Most pvp mesmers would go at least one point into dueling anyway for vigor on crit. Some people have suggested making deceptive evasion inherent to the class as a secondary profession mechanic. However, this would work only if you could turn the mechanic off whenever you want, as PVE mesmers do NOT want deceptive evasion.

That could also work. but even an interrupt mesmer that runs the 4/4/6/0/0 build may benefit from it. Because it would decrease the cooldown of diversion. But moving it to adept would also be something that would be amazing.

I’m just trying to throw something out there that will make mesmer viable at the top tier, and I think shatter is too limiting but everything else just doesn’t work as well as something else.

Selya.5039:

jportell.2197:

So an Idea i was mulling over was this. It isn’t a massive “buff” to mesmers as it were but an idea to open up more build diversity.

Way back when many moons ago, deceptive evasion was a minor trait in dueling. It was a 15 point (or 3 point now.)

I’m proposing changing that back. However, not in dueling. Make it the 3 point minor in illusions. Remove illusionist’s celerity all together and reduce illusion cooldowns across the board.

The point of this is not necessarily to buff mesmers (even tho I see it as such.), but to open up build diversity.

Ever since launch at the top level of play mesmers have had only one build. Just one. This has not changed since the launch of the game. If you look at almost any other class they have had a minimum of two truly competitive builds. Mesmer build diversity is by far the worst in the game. It has never seen anything besides shatter at the highest tier of play. The only change that has been seen build wise for mesmers that put them in a better spot, was the introduction of halting strike.

This would merely change the status quo from a compulsory 4 points in dueling compulsory for all builds except phantasms to a compulsory 3 points in illusions. While this would be a huge buff to shatter since shatter goes 6 points into illusions anyway, other builds, most prominently 4/4/6/0/0 interrupt builds, would suffer greatly since 3 points into illusions is inferior stat wise and adept trait choice wise compared with 4 points into dueling.

Imo, just change deceptive evasion to an adept trait in dueling (i.e. requires 2 points). Most pvp mesmers would go at least one point into dueling anyway for vigor on crit. Some people have suggested making deceptive evasion inherent to the class as a secondary profession mechanic. However, this would work only if you could turn the mechanic off whenever you want, as PVE mesmers do NOT want deceptive evasion.

PvE mesmers DO want deceptive evasion, because they also take compounding power (3% damage per clone alive), and since clones die so easily in PvE, DE helps them keep that uptime on the 9% damage bonus.

Sure, DE is not optimal when you could have 3 phantasms, but having 3 phantasms alive in high end pve is like living in La-La land, it ain’t happening.

Only reason current PvE mesmers aren’t taking DE is because it competes with blade training and the meta build is 6/4/0/0/4 with phantasmal haste.

I think on some dungeon mobs encounters pretty easy to keep 3 phantasms up.

jportell.2197:

Realistically Do you think ANET will do anything to fix our role competition? I think one thing that should be looked at is BETTER condi clear.

If they try to buff mesmers sustain will it be effective? Or is the class so pidgeoned into thief food that its useless.

Mesmer has strong condi clear options. It’s purely IP Shatter that has the issue because you can’t build condi clear into it (without dropping portal). You know this.

Mogar.9216:

lighter.2708:

the real problem mesmer face is really thief (which every team has one), other then that, mesmser is pretty amazing…

Most team run 1 dps, thief or mesmer. But thief hard counter mesmer, so the team with mesmer will lose to the one with thief if everything else being equal. Here lies the problem, there is no reason to have a mesmer on your team at all.

So delete thief from the game and every class can suddenly play?

Seems fair.

Mak.2657:

I think on some dungeon mobs encounters pretty easy to keep 3 phantasms up.

I don’t count CoF p1 as high end PvE.

Arah, fractal 50 are better examples. In Arah every boss has an aoe that instantly destroys them. In fractal 50 you got archdiviner on first floor IF his spinning projectiles are not hitting the phantasms. Svanir shaman maybe higher uptime, but he still kills your phantasms with autoattack swings. That’s about it.

jportell.2197:

Realistically Do you think ANET will do anything to fix our role competition? I think one thing that should be looked at is BETTER condi clear.

If they try to buff mesmers sustain will it be effective? Or is the class so pidgeoned into thief food that its useless.

Mesmer can potentially have ridiculous condition clear. The problem is that conventional shatter burst builds cant access it. But more condi removal on top of what they can get is not the answer, it would just make them more of a nightmare in the long run (when other issues get fixed/buffed) and WvW.

lighter.2708:

Ravenmoon.5318:

jportell.2197:

Ravenmoon.5318:

Kicast.1459:

Ravenmoon.5318:

Kicast.1459:

Thief have always needed and still need huge nerfs.
Highest mobility class must never be the hardcounter of anything.
Anet was not able to manage this in two years.
I don’t know if they are blind or if they just simply can’t due to awfull and broken initiative design.
Little tip for you anet…spammable skills must never be powerfull.

And the thief shouldn’t die in 2 crits but hey, it is what it is. If you can’t land 2 crits, that’s your fault. Live by the sword, die by the sword, lol

Yes it should…like other zerkers.
And thief is still one of the hardest class to down when well played.
But you are obviously not aware on what a good thief can do.

You clearly don’t know how immobilize works.

Agains’t s/d thief… Tell me how well immob works.

S/D damage is meh at best anyway … should all thieves switch to condi so you would feel less whiny, lol o.O

A good hambow will completely negate S/D thief.

Do you realize that a power ranger does more damage with bow than a thief with 2 pistols and has more defensive cleave than one.

S/D is going lengths to keep you dazed and immobilized, its not for everyone, thus the D/P is the meta at the moment. Which is extremely glassy

sorry but, hambow doesnt kill s/d, hambow kill d/p at best with berserker stance off CD, any s/d that knows how to dodge properly can completely avoid any hambow damage other then fire field.

also, DP doesnt really have upper hand against SD, 52 combo can be easily interrupted using steal, and evade spam highly increase the chance of avoiding DP’s steal.

You know, I know how to dodge properly, but the hambow need to stunchain you once. And it has happened to me before, and it is not pleasent. 1 stunchain is all it takes to kill a thief

Wow, such OP. Nerf … thieves should go down after a single normal attack!!!!!!!11eleveone