Guild Wars 2

top well designed: ele and guard
ok: war, ranger and engi
bad designed: mesmer and thief

xDudisx.5914:

top well designed: ele and guard
ok: war, ranger and engi
bad designed: mesmer and thief

This is a set up, I can tell. But I’ll bite.

Necro?

Congrats to Jonathan Sharp for designing necro. wink wink.

ronpierce.2760:

xDudisx.5914:

top well designed: ele and guard
ok: war, ranger and engi
bad designed: mesmer and thief

This is a set up, I can tell. But I’ll bite.

Necro?

Was going to put necro on the ok classes, but forgot to add them.

xDudisx.5914:

ronpierce.2760:

xDudisx.5914:

top well designed: ele and guard
ok: war, ranger and engi
bad designed: mesmer and thief

This is a set up, I can tell. But I’ll bite.

Necro?

Was going to put necro on the ok classes, but forgot to add them.

Leave it out, it makes it funnier

Just due to the fact that death shroud completely negates a whole trait line (blood magic) it is terribly designed.

From a balance pov, Engineer is the worst. They have created a profession of extremes with the Engineer.

The profession that can potentially have most readily available skills is the Engineer. The professions that can potentially have the least readily available skills is also the Engineer.

And the mechanics have been a mess since forever, the whole profession lacks a direction or an overarching idea.
It surprised me not one bit that out of all professions it was only the Engineer that had just a PowerPoint presentation when they did the big reveal of the trait changes. With some traitlines having as many as 1/3ths of the traits blank, “to be determined” later.

It’s a profession that sorely lacks ranged options, every weapon is designed for melee range, very close range, or optimized and balanced around close range. No profession needed a range option more than Engineer.
Yet they are doing the exact opposite. Give the specialization a(nother) melee range weapon and nerf the ranged options.

A profession that shined in highly gimmicky situations, that have prompted broad stroke nerfs that affect every build in every gamemode.

Worst: no contest possible => thief

Hard counter of plenty of builds
No hard counter
Spammy as hell
Very low risk / high reward
Worst of all: few to none counter play => instant gap closers / never ending dodging machine / stealth spamm / stupid mobility.
In the end a disaster removing any fun.

And anet wants to give double steal ?
Just for trolling I suppose.

Best design:
I like guard…it is not selfish … positive for teamates and fair for opponents.

Kicast.1459:

Worst: no contest possible => thief

Hard counter of plenty of builds
No hard counter
Spammy as hell
Very low risk / high reward
Worst of all: few to none counter play => instant gap closers / never ending dodging machine / stealth spamm / stupid mobility.
In the end a disaster removing any fun.

And anet wants to give double steal ?
Just for trolling I suppose.

Best design:
I like guard…it is not selfish … positive for teamates and fair for opponents.

You’re kidding me right?
Thief has no counter? How about almost every spec in the game apart from mesmer? High reward low risk? Have you ever played thief? It’s probably one of the hardest things in game. People like you do not understand the classes at all, especially when you cannot comprehend the nature of Improvisation.

Nice try, 2/10.

Laraley.7695:

Kicast.1459:

Worst: no contest possible => thief

Hard counter of plenty of builds
No hard counter
Spammy as hell
Very low risk / high reward
Worst of all: few to none counter play => instant gap closers / never ending dodging machine / stealth spamm / stupid mobility.
In the end a disaster removing any fun.

And anet wants to give double steal ?
Just for trolling I suppose.

Best design:
I like guard…it is not selfish … positive for teamates and fair for opponents.

You’re kidding me right?
Thief has no counter? How about almost every spec in the game apart from mesmer? High reward low risk? Have you ever played thief? It’s probably one of the hardest things in game. People like you do not understand the classes at all, especially when you cannot comprehend the nature of Improvisation.

Nice try, 2/10.

Oops…forgot to say thief has the toxiest community also

I agree that Death Shroud is probably best design, soon Revenant may be competitor.
However, by design I mean possible plays. If ArenaNet tried, they could make wonders with both Life Force and Death Shroud.

Atm, it’s an unfinished project that has been in beta for couple years.

I’ll point out that Elementalist also has interesting mechanic, yet… I feel that each element should be more distinct and feel more unique. I like the idea that you decide when to use each element and it’s accompanied with a cooldown. But I don’t like scrollling through elements just for boons, waiting for example, water to come of cooldown.

Worst designs?

I would say Engineer. Not because it’s not fun. It is. But Engineer profession mechanics are possibly biggest idea fail for ArenaNet. It was supposed to be an MMO with restricted numbers of skills avalible at once. Yet Engineer is just opposite of that idea. And they’re even giving away more skills! Now, it will be even 40 skills at once! Great, perfectly fits this MMO. Because of that, single skill doesn’t matter much. Oh, you missed X? No prob, swap kits and use 39 other skills.

Aand, yes, Thief. I like the idea of initiative. Always been a fan of Energy-like mechanics. But when we copied it from other MMOs, we forgot that Energy is only a part of mechanic. In WoW there were combo points, in GW1 there were sequences. Thief has none of that. He may as well use most powerful attacks over and over. Doesn’t require set up. Initiative regenerates the same, you fighting or running. It’s not as big issue in conquest, because you have to stay in that combat. What happened to idea of attack sequences? Why initiative doesn’t promote active combat, but more resetting?

But outside of conquest? Steal, hit hit, run, reset. Oh, Steal mechanic has also gone out of control. I don’t even mention stolen items, some underwhelming as hell (Engi one), others overpowered as hell (Ecto? AoE Fear? Axe from Warrior when compared to Warrior skill?). But outside of conquest, Thieves sometimes literally engage only for Steal and couple hits, then reset. I won’t even touch on things like telegraphs, anti-stealth, anti-reset or being partly immune to Chills or interrupts.

Kicast.1459:

Laraley.7695:

Kicast.1459:

Worst: no contest possible => thief

Hard counter of plenty of builds
No hard counter
Spammy as hell
Very low risk / high reward
Worst of all: few to none counter play => instant gap closers / never ending dodging machine / stealth spamm / stupid mobility.
In the end a disaster removing any fun.

And anet wants to give double steal ?
Just for trolling I suppose.

Best design:
I like guard…it is not selfish … positive for teamates and fair for opponents.

You’re kidding me right?
Thief has no counter? How about almost every spec in the game apart from mesmer? High reward low risk? Have you ever played thief? It’s probably one of the hardest things in game. People like you do not understand the classes at all, especially when you cannot comprehend the nature of Improvisation.

Nice try, 2/10.

Oops…forgot to say thief has the toxiest community also

The word you’re looking for is ‘’most toxic’‘. However, that doesn’t change anything. What you said couldn’t be far from true. And sorry if you cannot read the trait, which never ever stated you can steal twice in a row, then yes it’s your fault.

Laraley.7695:

Kicast.1459:

Laraley.7695:

Kicast.1459:

Worst: no contest possible => thief

Hard counter of plenty of builds
No hard counter
Spammy as hell
Very low risk / high reward
Worst of all: few to none counter play => instant gap closers / never ending dodging machine / stealth spamm / stupid mobility.
In the end a disaster removing any fun.

And anet wants to give double steal ?
Just for trolling I suppose.

Best design:
I like guard…it is not selfish … positive for teamates and fair for opponents.

You’re kidding me right?
Thief has no counter? How about almost every spec in the game apart from mesmer? High reward low risk? Have you ever played thief? It’s probably one of the hardest things in game. People like you do not understand the classes at all, especially when you cannot comprehend the nature of Improvisation.

Nice try, 2/10.

Oops…forgot to say thief has the toxiest community also

The word you’re looking for is ‘’most toxic’‘. However, that doesn’t change anything. What you said couldn’t be far from true. And sorry if you cannot read the trait, which never ever stated you can steal twice in a row, then yes it’s your fault.

Eh. It’s kind of true… In reality, no. Thief isn’t easy to play. HOWEVER, it does have the best tools to counter-act their weaknesses, effectively negating their “risk” in higher tier play. It’s the reason that (besides against Guardians) they’re one of the most powerful roamers. They’re highly mobile and can make up for their lackings, even if it isn’t easy and has a learning curve, once it’s met they can overcome their own barriers like no other class can. (Except maybe AOE a little bit. The new SA tree is looking rather promising though in those regards, since you will effectively be able to run 6/0/6/0/6).

So thats the problem… Yeah anyone can pick up thief and lose very easily. It’s squishy, no doubt. But thats the “risk”, but they have sufficient tools to reduce that “risk”, where as say, Necromancer has a risk of low mobility, they can’t even really make up for it because they also have the worst defenses, cast slow and require build up for defenses (LF) and are arguably one of the easiest classes to lock down. Hence it’s an actual weakness and “risk” of the class which cannot very easily be overcame by skill within their toolset.

I also feel like both Engi and Thief are the most defensive against nerfs when they could be pretty reasonable. Thief does have a lot of perks that thieves like to ignore when discussing the class.

HOWEVER, I also feel for them because they’re essentially only great at glass cannoning, and if they lose that, they would effectively become useless. But that’s sort of where the idea of “bad design” comes it. They’re good at one thing, have a pretty large skill gap, where on the low end they look terrible and the high end they’re one of the strongest 1v1 (and maybe even 1vx? wvw) classes in the game, and great at leaving a fight if things go poorly.

I’d consider that a design flaw, since their play style really doesn’t blend well with the entire REST of the game’s mechanics.

Laraley.7695:

Kicast.1459:

Worst: no contest possible => thief

Hard counter of plenty of builds
No hard counter
Spammy as hell
Very low risk / high reward
Worst of all: few to none counter play => instant gap closers / never ending dodging machine / stealth spamm / stupid mobility.
In the end a disaster removing any fun.

And anet wants to give double steal ?
Just for trolling I suppose.

Best design:
I like guard…it is not selfish … positive for teamates and fair for opponents.

You’re kidding me right?
Thief has no counter? How about almost every spec in the game apart from mesmer? High reward low risk? Have you ever played thief? It’s probably one of the hardest things in game. People like you do not understand the classes at all, especially when you cannot comprehend the nature of Improvisation.

Nice try, 2/10.

Work on your reading. He wrote “no HARD counter”. A thief will lose to a guardian or an engineer if they fight them 1v1 on a point. They can, however, move away at any point in time and can even win eventually as long as they play cheesy/carefully by jumping in and out. A mesmer will die from a good thief if he gets no support from teammates. The mesmer cannot walk away, blink away or anything of the sort. The matchup besides mesmer and thief i would perhaps consider a hardcounter is Necro vs Condi Engi.

I would consider it 100% fair if thief had a hardcounter on the meta thief build, since ALL thieves play shortbow, mainly because of the mobility. Perhaps they could kill more people if they used another weaponset that is more intended for fighting rather than actually running.

The notion that thief hard counters plenty of builds is debatable, but it does feel incredibly boring and cheesy when you play for example a fresh air ele and suddenly you get stealth backstabbed, get posion, weakness, daze and 3 seconds immobilize on you instantly.

Quadox.7834:

Laraley.7695:

Kicast.1459:

Worst: no contest possible => thief

Hard counter of plenty of builds
No hard counter
Spammy as hell
Very low risk / high reward
Worst of all: few to none counter play => instant gap closers / never ending dodging machine / stealth spamm / stupid mobility.
In the end a disaster removing any fun.

And anet wants to give double steal ?
Just for trolling I suppose.

Best design:
I like guard…it is not selfish … positive for teamates and fair for opponents.

You’re kidding me right?
Thief has no counter? How about almost every spec in the game apart from mesmer? High reward low risk? Have you ever played thief? It’s probably one of the hardest things in game. People like you do not understand the classes at all, especially when you cannot comprehend the nature of Improvisation.

Nice try, 2/10.

Work on your reading. He wrote “no HARD counter”. A thief will lose to a guardian or an engineer if they fight them 1v1 on a point. They can, however, move away at any point in time and can even win eventually as long as they play cheesy/carefully by jumping in and out. A mesmer will die from a good thief if he gets no support from teammates. The mesmer cannot walk away, blink away or anything of the sort. The matchup besides mesmer and thief i would perhaps consider a hardcounter is Necro vs Condi Engi.

The notion that thief hard counters plenty of builds is debatable, but it does feel incredibly boring and cheesy when you play for example a fresh air ele and suddenly you get stealth backstabbed, get posion, weakness, daze and 3 seconds immobilize on you instantly.

My reading is fine.

Thief will generally lose in 1v1 to:
d/d ele
shoutbow
engi
guardian

Note, those are the specs that have been in meta for ages.

Thief has an okay match up against:
Necro (but power necro is not really that easy for a thief)
Ranger

Thief is very good against:
mesmer

Making it seem like a thief can go and just 1v1 anything with no issues is wrong. I do agree that d/p builds are really good, but they’re not low risk/high reward. It is one of the hardest things to play in the game and you have to play almost perfectly if you don’t want to be liability to your team. I agree with you that thief has many ways to disengage, but I don’t agree mesmer does not. You have portal, blink, distortion, stealth…Thief might be better at that, but it doesn’t mean mesmer is complete trash, it isn’t.

It’s funny that you say it feels cheesy when you’re on fresh air and you get backstabbed and immobed. Many fresh air skills are instant, have interrupts that track stealth and dps that can shut down a thief.

I don’t main thief, I actually main ele and had been mostly playing fresh air till recently when I picked up thief and it’s really not that easy how some people think. It’s a completely different playstyle due to the nature of the profession and it has its benefits but it rewards good play.

Laraley.7695:

Quadox.7834:

Laraley.7695:

Kicast.1459:

Worst: no contest possible => thief

Hard counter of plenty of builds
No hard counter
Spammy as hell
Very low risk / high reward
Worst of all: few to none counter play => instant gap closers / never ending dodging machine / stealth spamm / stupid mobility.
In the end a disaster removing any fun.

And anet wants to give double steal ?
Just for trolling I suppose.

Best design:
I like guard…it is not selfish … positive for teamates and fair for opponents.

You’re kidding me right?
Thief has no counter? How about almost every spec in the game apart from mesmer? High reward low risk? Have you ever played thief? It’s probably one of the hardest things in game. People like you do not understand the classes at all, especially when you cannot comprehend the nature of Improvisation.

Nice try, 2/10.

Work on your reading. He wrote “no HARD counter”. A thief will lose to a guardian or an engineer if they fight them 1v1 on a point. They can, however, move away at any point in time and can even win eventually as long as they play cheesy/carefully by jumping in and out. A mesmer will die from a good thief if he gets no support from teammates. The mesmer cannot walk away, blink away or anything of the sort. The matchup besides mesmer and thief i would perhaps consider a hardcounter is Necro vs Condi Engi.

The notion that thief hard counters plenty of builds is debatable, but it does feel incredibly boring and cheesy when you play for example a fresh air ele and suddenly you get stealth backstabbed, get posion, weakness, daze and 3 seconds immobilize on you instantly.

My reading is fine.

Thief will generally lose in 1v1 to:
d/d ele
shoutbow
engi
guardian

Note, those are the specs that have been in meta for ages.

Thief has an okay match up against:
Necro (but power necro is not really that easy for a thief)
Ranger

Thief is very good against:
mesmer

Making it seem like a thief can go and just 1v1 anything with no issues is wrong. I do agree that d/p builds are really good, but they’re not low risk/high reward. It is one of the hardest things to play in the game and you have to play almost perfectly if you don’t want to be liability to your team. I agree with you that thief has many ways to disengage, but I don’t agree mesmer does not. You have portal, blink, distortion, stealth…Thief might be better at that, but it doesn’t mean mesmer is complete trash, it isn’t.

It’s funny that you say it feels cheesy when you’re on fresh air and you get backstabbed and immobed. Many fresh air skills are instant, have interrupts that track stealth and dps that can shut down a thief.

I don’t main thief, I actually main ele and had been mostly playing fresh air till recently when I picked up thief and it’s really not that easy how some people think. It’s a completely different playstyle due to the nature of the profession and it has its benefits but it rewards good play.

It does’t have to be fresh air, i could just as well be any squishy build. The argument was that thief arguably pushes some other squishies out of the meta because it kills well and has amazing mobility. Now, i don’t think this is necessarily true, why i said “The notion that thief hard counters plenty of builds is debatable”.

You are right in that thief generally will lose to
d/d ele
shoutbow
engi
guardian

But you still don’t seem to understand. These are 1v1 counters, not HARD counters. They don’t shut a thief at all, they simply outlast him and kill him in that regard. A shoutbow warrior will by your logic hardcounter almost anything in this game. Make sure to differenciate. =))

Best designed

Thief (by far the most fun stealth based rogue typeish prof i ever played in any MMO)
mesmer
guardian

Worst

Ranger
Necro

this thread reminds me on my guildmate that decided to play thief, copied metabattle build, went into match, spent pretty much entire match in downstate….yep, easy to play, no counter~

on the other hand, when ele daily came out i created dd ele (that i have 0 idea how to play), pretty much mashed my face on keyboard, somehow things died around me and i didn’t~… same goes for shoutbow~

Everything I choose not to touch with my divine skeelz is badly designed. Everything I main is great in design and fair.

I think everything I don’t play is also faceroll and i outplay them all with my super fair gimmicks of any kind.

Best designed class:

My class (Only because it is very balanced.)

Worst:

My class (Only because it should be buffed and fixed.)