Guild Wars 2

Thanks for proving that burnzeker is great for PvE. Unfortunately this discussion is about PvP …

The “burstiest” condi build (which works against players, not only against stationary mobs) is burn guard i guess (+ maybe p/p burn engie), and it gets easily countered by cleanses, because it lacks cover condis. And those aren’t very tanky builds. (marauder scrapper for example has better survability despite using an offensive amulet). How tanky a build is, isn’t only dependent on stats – traits and skills matter a lot too. And many condibuilds have to give up defensive traits and/or skills so their survability isn’t always better than power builds, even with more defensive stats from amulet/gear.

There are no tanky amulets anymore. Power builds are not anymore tanky than condi builds. In fact condi builds with like rabid necro are more tanky than any power build currently.

Warrior isn’t viable in PVP period Burnzerker or no burnzerker. There are not enough cleanses to counter a full condi team vs a normal non condi team becasue the classes that are meta besides druid and ele isn’t that meta anymore don’t have loads of condi clears. The rate at wihch condis can be applied is much higher than the rate at which condis can be cleared.

Amulets like vipers do almost every bit as much power damage as amulets like Marauders since crit damage was nerfed. and amulets with toughness are pointless aginst conditions and do a lot less power damage than mara.

People with the old meta mindset are behind the times and havn’t woke up to the state of the game.

Huttunen.8309:

I wasn’t even talking about evading and blocks? Of course you can evade and block most of the attacks. The thing is that there’s no condis or boons but just resistance which help against condis.

Except there are several other tools for dealing with condis outside of resistance.

There are runes and traits that reduce condi duration
There are numerous abilities that can clear condis/convert to boon
There are some sigils and classes can even transfer condis back to the enemy.

The tools for dealing with condis is there. Heck I would argue that there is significantly more counterplay against condis than against power.

Warlord.9074:

The rate at wihch condis can be applied is much higher than the rate at which condis can be cleared.

If people could clear condis as fast as they are applied then condition builds would be completely and utterly worthless.

@warlord

You showed the condi damage took more time to kick in than that instant 5 k evicerate on a 560 vitality spec (vs a full offencive amulet)… + you are verry unlikely going to pull off a full sword F1 and see ppl let the condi last + it was viper runes wich bring hybrid damage wich has less burst higher overal DPS. You should have shown unviable Kill shot build and that one on a ligth armored golem. (we both know what would happen)

I can also show you a perfect mes spike with a double continium split on that heavy golem and I don’t think any condi burst will comme close to that. Best condi burst builds relly on burning there are 2 you can play in pvp burn guard and FT engi wich both exclusively rely on burning and are verry suceptible to cleanses.

Condi is stronger vs high armor than regular power spec you took a heavy golem wich is not a representative sample , if you wan’t to make a fair comparison you should run tests on all armor types and all vitality pools.

The rate at wich condis can be applied is much higher than the rate at which condis can be cleared. This is kinda normal, it’s like saying (no matter what kind of damage you take) it’s unfair we don’t heal more than the damage we take.

(Ps: The builds I play are often power specs)

The issue with condition specs isn’t really the damage they do or how they apply it. The issue, I believe, is their ability to drop their burst and then basically run in circles until it kills you.

A good example would be D/P power thief vs D/D condi. If we take the most basic D/P combo (BP>HS>Steal>BS) and the basic D/D combo (HS>caltrops>DB>dodge>DB>DB>dodge) we see a few things. First off, the D/P combo is quite telegraphed (the thief wouldn’t have enough time to stack more than a single leap of stealth) meaning he has only a few seconds to land the BS which gives the enemy (assuming they know what they’re doing) more than enough time to do w.e to avoid your damage. The D/D combo, on the other hand, doesn’t deal as much damage upfront, but they’re basically perma invuln doing what they’re doing while still contributing to capture contribution and the like. Unless you’re running a bunker build and are capable of sustaining through their bleed, you’ll lose the point almost all of the time (another reason why conquest is cancer). Most condition builds bring similar kinds of unfun cancerous mechanics (tons of stealth and repositioning on condi cancermes, burn guard makes the innate blocking mechanics on guard even more pronounced, trap ranger has something similar to D/D thief but not as pronounced and much easier to counterplay, etcetcetc). Basically, almost simultaneous attack and defense at the cost of less upfront damage. This is to be expected of an attrition build but, nonetheless, it doesn’t change the fact that they’re simply not fun to fight against as a power user.

This was supposed be like a funny post… but the reaction is to be expected. It’s the same as, for example, making a video facing 5 dragonhunters or 5 druids or 5 glassy revenants and then raging “OMG TRAPS FFS!” “OMG THE PET DMG OMG THE SUSTAIN” or something silly like that. Of COURSE you’ll get flamed when you post something like that. You face a condi team and there was no way of knowing they were condi and it was rough. If you knew they were all condi, you could easily counter it. On the other hand, the opponents could have easily been an annoying power spec. For some reason as soon as it’s “condi” it’s stigmatized. There’s so much AoE condi clears being thrown around in the game that I’m surprised people find it that difficult or annoying to fight… I find druids/scrappers/DHs 10x more annoying than most condi specs.

SlayerSixx.5763:

[…] it doesn’t change the fact that they’re simply not fun to fight against as a power user.

This is your very personal view, but not a general fact. I don’t mind fighting condi builds with my power ranger, even if i don’t run much condi remove all the time. The build i hate fighting the most is actually a power build (scrapper). Of course some condi builds can be quite annoying, but others can be fun to fight (for me).
Btw, how is a DB/caltrops spamming condi thief much different from a vault/bounding dodger spamming power thief? Attacks with build-in defense are not a condi only feature.

SlayerSixx.5763:

The issue, I believe, is their ability to drop their burst and then basically run in circles until it kills you.

As compared to a power build’s ability to drop their burst and kill you right then?

UmbraNoctis.1907:

SlayerSixx.5763:

[…] it doesn’t change the fact that they’re simply not fun to fight against as a power user.

This is your very personal view, but not a general fact. I don’t mind fighting condi builds with my power ranger, even if i don’t run much condi remove all the time. The build i hate fighting the most is actually a power build (scrapper). Of course some condi builds can be quite annoying, but others can be fun to fight (for me).
Btw, how is a DB/caltrops spamming condi thief much different from a vault/bounding dodger spamming power thief? Attacks with build-in defense are not a condi only feature.

It may be fine to face them in your opinion, but you’ll find many more people who just don’t enjoy facing a condition build. You’re fine with facing them on your power ranger because power ranger is literally LB2 spam until dead. Try playing the game a little longer.

Also, an evade spamming power thief isn’t the same for the following reasons:

- Vault costs more initiative. 2 Vaults vs 3 DBs assuming no trickery.

- Staff is an OK weapon, but D/P is still the strongest weapon set for power thieves which is why I compared D/D to D/P. Hell, you could’ve brought up S/D instead of staff with its teleport, minor condi cleanse, with the evade AND boon steal for the same initiative cost, but that wouldn’t make your point any stronger.

- Power thief relies more on their initiative for defenses vs a condi thief that usually brings some sort of tank stat (vit if carrion, toughness if rabid). If you end up burning through your initiative as a condi thief, you have a slightly larger safety net than a power thief. Also, spamming bound on power thief is a risky move since most power thief builds use withdraw for the evade and rapid repositioning, meaning they can’t bring the daredevil heal since they’ll suffer more if they’re interrupted than a condi thief since, again, the condi thief usually brings better survivability stats.

Condition builds that have a power build that operates similarly (medi zerk vs medi burn, for instance) tend to be much more forgiving to the user simply because condition builds tend to pack higher survivability stats.

UmbraNoctis.1907:

SlayerSixx.5763:

[…] it doesn’t change the fact that they’re simply not fun to fight against as a power user.

This is your very personal view, but not a general fact. I don’t mind fighting condi builds with my power ranger, even if i don’t run much condi remove all the time. The build i hate fighting the most is actually a power build (scrapper). Of course some condi builds can be quite annoying, but others can be fun to fight (for me).
Btw, how is a DB/caltrops spamming condi thief much different from a vault/bounding dodger spamming power thief? Attacks with build-in defense are not a condi only feature.

It may be fine to face them in your opinion, but you’ll find many more people who just don’t enjoy facing a condition build. You’re fine with facing them on your power ranger because power ranger is literally LB2 spam until dead. Try playing the game a little longer.

Also, an evade spamming power thief isn’t the same for the following reasons:

- Vault costs more initiative. 2 Vaults vs 3 DBs assuming no trickery.

- Staff is an OK weapon, but D/P is still the strongest weapon set for power thieves which is why I compared D/D to D/P. Hell, you could’ve brought up S/D instead of staff with its teleport, minor condi cleanse, with the evade AND boon steal for the same initiative cost, but that wouldn’t make your point any stronger.

- Power thief relies more on their initiative for defenses vs a condi thief that usually brings some sort of tank stat (vit if carrion, toughness if rabid). If you end up burning through your initiative as a condi thief, you have a slightly larger safety net than a power thief. Also, spamming bound on power thief is a risky move since most power thief builds use withdraw for the evade and rapid repositioning, meaning they can’t bring the daredevil heal since they’ll suffer more if they’re interrupted than a condi thief since, again, the condi thief usually brings better survivability stats.

Condition builds that have a power build that operates similarly (medi zerk vs medi burn, for instance) tend to be much more forgiving to the user simply because condition builds tend to pack higher survivability stats.

@Crinn

Power builds can kill you outright if they land their rotation, but they’re generally at a disadvantage if they miss or have a portion of their combo negated. Taking D/D condi thief as an example again, you either run off point and give it to him or avoid the first two death blossoms and then collapse while still not being able to touch him. Power builds generally tend to have much larger telegraphs to their bursts (thief is the exception here and only if they don’t watch their position when BP>HS).

Yea, LB2 spam works great on a melee ranger :p

Vault deals more (burst) dmg so i guess, the higher ini cost is justified.

And yes, d/p is the best weapon set for thieves – not only for power thieves, but for thieves in general – because d/d condi doesn’t offer much outside from being “annoying”. The big advantage of d/p (and burst builds in general) is the instant nature of the damage, which gives the enemy less time to react. And (kill-)time is a very important factor.

I don’t see a problem with condition builds. contrary to pure dps builds, they often lack hard cc, to keep up the pressure. thier condi bursts actually are a bit slower to take in effect compared to a single burst which often goes hand in hand with hard and soft cc. they can be cleased, have immunity to. and they themselves could lack anti cc like reaper for example.(has really only chilled) and even that is nothing more then a damage bonus for it’s melee attacks.

the way reality pans out. power builds are not at a major disadvantage or at an disadvantage at all against condi builds. they have to use precision and ferocity sure. but they can more often then not compensate for that with high pressure and hard cc.

i mean if scrapper is anything to go by, it’d be an prime example of a viable power build.

plz guys , stop arguing about condi OP or direct dmg OP , just use ur condi clean CORRECTLY plz , i personnaly stopped to watch the vid when he raged at 2:25 “I JUST CONDI CLEARED I JUST CONDI CLEARED I JUST CONDI CLEARED” , maaaaaaan HELL YEAH u just condi cleared 1 miserable and HOLLY stack of vulnerability well done bro , also stop raging against condi bomb when u run into it without any precaution .
golden wings don’t necessarily get u flying high , even at 4/20 .