Guild Wars 2

Terrahero.9358:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Engineers seem a little over the top because they have all the condition spam in addition to great direct damage and defense. But that is a general balance issue not a condition issue.

And yet Engineers were one of the most unpopular professions during the ToL, only slightly more popular then Mesmer.

So whatever Engineers seem like its a symptom at low skill brackets that, just like condition builds, dont scale up as the quality of the players do. And ultimately get outperformed by power-builds and other professions.

I think its becomming apparent that these complaints are low-skill problems.

I love guys like you who claim that everyone below TOL are low-skill and therefore have invalid claims right away.

TOL players used classes and trait lines that synergize well for their type of play (at least the good ones as claimed). It just so happens that they mostly favor power builds.

Remember people – correlation does not imply causation.

Correlation does not imply causation, but if conditions truly were overpowered and unbeatable, you had better believe that they would have been flooding competitive tier PvP. Those guys play to win, regardless of what that takes. If it means playing something they know is overpowered, they will do it.

You know what they didn’t play? Condition builds.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Correlation does not imply causation, but if conditions truly were overpowered and unbeatable, you had better believe that they would have been flooding competitive tier PvP. Those guys play to win, regardless of what that takes. If it means playing something they know is overpowered, they will do it.

You know what they didn’t play? Condition builds.

Even if they are overpowered (I really can’t take a side on this) if they can’t work well with the playstyle people are used with or if they don’t win in the only game type we got – they wont be used as much. They will simply be OP for battles and nothing more, so a more mobile team could/would still win.

Most of the TOL that provided any comments stated already that they played with what they felt comfortable with. I doubt many would just jump on the bandawagon last minute to try something that might or might not work in a crucial point in time.

I have come to the conclusion that the problem with condi’s isn’t whether they are op or up. They simply require you to build differently to beat them, which means making sacrifices against other builds resulting in rock paper scissors matchups. If I build with a ton of condi removal, I won’t have as much protection against direct damage and if I build against direct damage I lack condi removal. If I bring a mix of condi removal and direct damage protection, I don’t insta die to either type but am at a disadvantage to an enemy using purely one type of attack as my defense for the other type is wasted.

This is where people are annoyed, in that their build is effective against some enemies, and ineffective against others resulting in starting many fights at an inherent disadvantage due to how you are built. It is ok for different builds to have different play styles such as glass or bunker, burst or sustain (this is excellent). However having two types of damage sources where defending against them requires not just different tactics but different builds results in rock paper scissors game play which is bad.

Possible ways to fix this would make condis affected by toughness, protection, weakness etc. However let their damage also scale with ferocity should the attack applying them crit. Then restrict condi cures to only working against non damaging conditions so that they affect both power and condition builds roughly the same. The difference between power and condition would then be that power hits immediately while conditions take a bit longer to kill, but would ultimately be stronger over longer battles. This would be a massive change though so I don’t see it ever happening.

ToL is one thing. However, fact is that when you do play soloQ and teamQ, the only thing you’re facing are hambows and engis. 4 games today :
- 1 soloq vs 4 engis
- 2 teamq vs 3 warriors + engi

These builds are beatable hopefully, but you can also lose way too easily, whilst it doesn’t seem to require a lot of effort to win for them. Also, facing these builds over and over isn’t really fun and tend to make people ( myself included) rather mad..

ZudetGambeous.9573:

I’m not sure where people are getting this idea that conditions can’t be dodged or mitigated.

You can dodge conditions exactly the same as you can dodge power attacks, not sure why people think you can’t.

Additionally each condition applies a set amount of damage, it is just distributed differently. people complain that scepter auto attack applies bleed for a necro. Yes it does. It does 150 base damage plus kitten bleed. Assuming they have a full glass cannon condition build that is a 10s bleed with approximately 200/s tick. that is a total of 2k dmg spread over 10 seconds. Are you saying that other classes auto attacks can’t reach 2k dps? because i’m pretty sure d/d thieves can hit upwards of 3k dps with auto attack if they are zerker. pretty sure warrior can do the same.

Of course in addition to all the standard mitigation (block, dodge, invuln, etc) you can also stop those attacks with condition immunities, cleanses, boon conversion and condition transfers.

That isn’t to say there aren’t specific builds that are OP. Engineers seem a little over the top because they have all the condition spam in addition to great direct damage and defense. But that is a general balance issue not a condition issue.

^ This guy gets it.

Why do some of you suggest we ignore the ToL in this conversation? All that says to me is that this idea is demanding they change the game based on the lowest common denominator. That sure seems like a bad idea to me. Why would you not want to balance the game to the competitive level?

As well, it is hard to take anyone seriously who says “condition spam” in some manner that attempts to imply that some condition builds attack faster or more repetitive then direct damage.

Conditions are not that bad for the most part. There are a few builds that are ridiculously strong 1v1 due to their high level of tankiness/healing and good condi damage…. cough cough SS/LB warrior. The thing is these builds lose all their fizz against an organized team. Nerf conditions and you basically kill condi builds in high level competition.