Guild Wars 2

UmbraNoctis.1907:

Condis don’t come out of nowhere. The enemy has to hit you and you can avoid those hits exactly the same way you avoid power attacks. Condis can be avoided through blocks, blinds, invulnerability (don’t mistake immunity to direct dmg with invuln – those are different things), dodges, evades, LOS, going out of range and so on …

Yes, condis that are already on you won’t stop ticking because you dodge or block. But if you dodge or block after you got hit by a power attack it doesn’t do much either, right?

Cleanses and resistance are additional ways to deal with condis, just like toughness and protection are ways to lower the direct dmg you take.

Dodge = Evade
LOS is an environmental thing, I guess we spoke of direct combat where you and your enemy are clashed tightly. You can try going out of range, but everyone has means to get closer to you, root/slow or pull you back into the fight.

You are right about that part with dodging power attack after being struck. But the deal is that before you get condibombed, you get CC and considering how for example, warriors do their job, they will first force you out of stab with stuns before dropping
their bomb.
As for blind, there are some ways to constantly drop blind on top of someone, negating most of power damage. But inbetween frames while blind is applied, condi build all that has to do is to touch the opponent a little bit to make’em feel the DoT (damage over time) and blind can go screw itself then.
Now please take note that condition damage that was already applied on you ticks too fast and for too much, just like burst power damage and this is not how it should be.

EDIT:
With power you have to constantly attack in order to kill someone, keep it tight and glued until he/she falls to the ground (unless power damage on distance, but you still have to pressure.)
With condi you just have to scratch the enemy for long enough and pop those condi skills to burst just right, then sit back and relax.

Rodzynald.5897:

UmbraNoctis.1907:

Condis don’t come out of nowhere. The enemy has to hit you and you can avoid those hits exactly the same way you avoid power attacks. Condis can be avoided through blocks, blinds, invulnerability (don’t mistake immunity to direct dmg with invuln – those are different things), dodges, evades, LOS, going out of range and so on …

Yes, condis that are already on you won’t stop ticking because you dodge or block. But if you dodge or block after you got hit by a power attack it doesn’t do much either, right?

Cleanses and resistance are additional ways to deal with condis, just like toughness and protection are ways to lower the direct dmg you take.

Dodge = Evade
LOS is an environmental thing, I guess we spoke of direct combat where you and your enemy are clashed tightly. You can try going out of range, but everyone has means to get closer to you, root/slow or pull you back into the fight.

You are right about that part with dodging power attack after being struck. But the deal is that before you get condibombed, you get CC and considering how for example, warriors do their job, they will first force you out of stab with stuns before dropping
their bomb.
As for blind, there are some ways to constantly drop blind on top of someone, negating most of power damage. But inbetween frames while blind is applied, condi build all that has to do is to touch the opponent a little bit to make’em feel the DoT (damage over time) and blind can go screw itself then.
Now please take note that condition damage that was already applied on you ticks too fast and for too much, just like burst power damage and this is not how it should be.

With power you struck and that’s all, you still need to deal damage in order to kill someone, keep it tight and glued until he/she falls to the ground (unless power damage on distance, but you still have to pressure.)
With condi you just have to pressure the enemy for long enough and drop that condi burst just right, then sit back and relax.

Dodge=Dodge.
Evade=Ancestral Grace.

Look, With power damage, you just have to pressure the enemy until they waste dodges, and then to press 2 bottons and relax, your enemy is already dead.

The issue isn’t condi’s, it’s condis combined with perma-evasion and/or perma-stun that frustrates people.
I’ve been trying out ye olde condi rev and what the OP described is literally my main way of winning small scale fights-duck in, drop my main condi skills, duck out and spam dodges/heals. While the condi rev is balanced by getting mowed down under any kind of focus, there are classes better at focus that can dish out similar condi damage in higher bursts. I can understand the frustration.

UmbraNoctis.1907:

Azukas.1426:

Even now 1 simple auto attack can proc thousands of damage over time. While this is theory is in line with the attrition gameplay condi was supposed to be we aren’t counting in the multiple stacks + actual skills injunction with those passive autos. Throw in that most are ranged + easily reapplied and you start to see the problem.

Thx

Which autoattacks are you talking about? Necros scepter is pretty much the only strong condi autoattack that’s used in a viable build. And it still deals less dmg than autoattacks of many power builds. Some condi builds have zero condis on autoattacks. Autoattacks are not what makes condi builds strong.

Rodzynald.5897:

2nd thing
Power damage can be blocked, evaded, made immune to with invulnerability, mitigated with toughness

Condis don’t come out of nowhere. The enemy has to hit you and you can avoid those hits exactly the same way you avoid power attacks. Condis can be avoided through blocks, blinds, invulnerability (don’t mistake immunity to direct dmg with invuln – those are different things), dodges, evades, LOS, going out of range and so on …

Yes, condis that are already on you won’t stop ticking because you dodge or block. But if you dodge or block after you got hit by a power attack it doesn’t do much either, right?

Cleanses and resistance are additional ways to deal with condis, just like toughness and protection are ways to lower the direct dmg you take.

Reread my post again you misread it.

Ok so I don’t really feel like condi in GENERAL is an issue. I despise Torment and Confusion personally, particularly the latter because not only does it DoT but it also punishes you further for actually playing. I get frustrated beyond belief when I get told “Well if you have Torment/Confusion stacks on you and you cant cleanse them right away then it’s your fault you died cause you moved/used skills” like… whaaaaat…? I shall remember to AFK in future whenever those condis are applied to me until they run out or my cleanses come off CD.

I mean Torment isn’t that bad but I do really miss the OLD Confusion without the DoT. It was powerful even then, but adding the DoT on top of the damage on skill use made it incredibly annoying. At least with the old Confusion I could simply choose to be careful of which skills I used until I could clear it to mitigate some of the damage, now you’re kittened either way.

Besides that, my primary issue with Condi is actually the way it’s cleansed. It’s incredibly annoying if, say, I had 8 stacks of Confusion, 3 stacks of torment, 6 stacks of bleed, 5 stacks of burning and say a single stack of poison, then some weakness and cripple, and my cleanse gets rid of everything BESIDES the condis that are actually chunking my health. The whole idea of “cover condis” is dumb, IMO. Maybe I’m missing something, idk, but when people make the argument of there not being enough condi cleanse to account for the amount of conditions that can be applied, and THEN you factor in the fact that alot of the time you’re not actually cleansing the condis you NEED to get rid of (like those Confusion and Burning stacks that are chunking at your HP) it makes Condis frustrating to fight against. Builds have limited access to cleanses and much of the time they’re on sizable CDs, so obviously we can’t afford for those cleanses to be wasted on conditions that aren’t immediately threatening which is why I’ve never understood why we can’t prioritize which conditions we cleanse.

I agree, the number of times that I burn several cleanses (say, on an ele) and watch the 15 burn stacks stay there is certainly irritating.

On the counter side, sometimes blind is actually the deadly (or at least most frustrating) condition on you. I’m not quite sure how to give the player any control over this, perhaps allowing a personalised condition cleanse priority list as part of builds could be a thing?

Raek.8504:

Look, With power damage, you just have to pressure the enemy until they waste dodges, and then to press 2 bottons and relax, your enemy is already dead.

Block, block, block, immune, immune, block, miss, miss + toughness, perhaps invulnerability or teleportation, burst healing…
Should I go on about counters to power damage?

Rodzynald.5897:

Raek.8504:

Look, With power damage, you just have to pressure the enemy until they waste dodges, and then to press 2 bottons and relax, your enemy is already dead.

Block, block, block, immune, immune, block, miss, miss + toughness, perhaps invulnerability or teleportation, burst healing…
Should I go on about counters to power damage?

Block, block, block, immune, immune, block, miss, miss + vitality, perhaps invulnerability or teleportation, burst healing…

Should i go on about counters to condition damage?

Raek.8504:

Rodzynald.5897:

Raek.8504:

Look, With power damage, you just have to pressure the enemy until they waste dodges, and then to press 2 bottons and relax, your enemy is already dead.

Block, block, block, immune, immune, block, miss, miss + toughness, perhaps invulnerability or teleportation, burst healing…
Should I go on about counters to power damage?

Block, block, block, immune, immune, block, miss, miss + vitality, perhaps invulnerability or teleportation, burst healing…

Should i go on about counters to condition damage?

So you say that once you got condis on you, you can block them and make them miss? Have you seen how fat damage those make? Vitality will make you endure 2 seconds longer, invulnerability and teleportation won’t help and burst healing will make you suffer for a little bit longer if you won’t cleanse.
There is only immunity in the form of resistance that is a quite rare boon, not for everyone.
You could say that this is a counter before you get struck with condi spell but such counters are are for power as well. We are talking about condi damage and their application rate overall which will be put on you sooner or later despite trying to block and evade.

EDIT:
As for that part with dodge = dodge and evade = ancestral grace
Check this out: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Evade
“Evading can be achieved by a carefully timed dodge an instant before the blow lands”
This means that dodge makes you evade attacks, nuff’ said.

Rodzynald.5897:

Raek.8504:

Rodzynald.5897:

Raek.8504:

Look, With power damage, you just have to pressure the enemy until they waste dodges, and then to press 2 bottons and relax, your enemy is already dead.

Block, block, block, immune, immune, block, miss, miss + toughness, perhaps invulnerability or teleportation, burst healing…
Should I go on about counters to power damage?

Block, block, block, immune, immune, block, miss, miss + vitality, perhaps invulnerability or teleportation, burst healing…

Should i go on about counters to condition damage?

So you say that once you got condis on you, you can block them and make them miss? Have you seen how fat damage those make? Vitality will make you endure 2 seconds longer, invulnerability and teleportation won’t help and burst healing will make you suffer for a little bit longer if you won’t cleanse.
There is only immunity in the form of resistance that is a quite rare boon, not for everyone.
You could say that this is a counter before you get struck with condi spell but such counters are are for power as well. We are talking about condi damage and their application rate overall which will be put on you sooner or later despite trying to block and evade.

As for that part with dodge = dodge and evade = ancestral grace
Check this out: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Evade
“Dodge, or use an evasion skill, just before being hit "
This means that dodge makes you evade attacks, nuff’ said.

Toughness will make you endure 2 seconds more against power damage.

So let’s say you took 5 k damage from power attack and after that, 2 seconds later later, you are blocking, can u make that 5 k damage attack you already took miss ?

I can put it the same way: There are only few immunities from power damage purely, it’s something like endure pain or signet of stone, but they are rare, not for everyone.

And what’s wrong with power damage application !? My god it’s nearly on every weapon skill in the game !? Good lord, power damage application is out of control !!!!

Kidds don’t do logic nowadays, nuff’ said.

perhaps allowing a personalized condition cleanse priority list as part of builds could be a thing?

I suggested this awhile back. I’d personally set the priority to confusion, poison, chill, poison, burning, etc., in general or switch it depending on my class or enemy comp.

So why would you dodge AFTER dmg of any sort is applied? I see so many ppl here that know exactly when to avoid direct dmg (when it’s applied) yet they do not know when to avoid condi (hint: when it’s applied). So that argument is rather weak.
as for being cced and then die to dmg/ being focused by multiple dmg sources: it doesn’t matter if it’s condi or direct burst, you will probably die since you can’t avoid all applications either way.

I always check my stats after each game and the times I got more dmg through conditions was once(by 20k dmg) since season 1!

AtomsOrSystems.9420:

drcraig.9403:

AtomsOrSystems.9420:

Condi Cleanse=Condi Damage Mitigation.
Toughness=Direct Damage Mitigation.
Healing=General Damage Mitigation

Yes, unfortunately you can run out of cleanse. That = no mitigation. Condi builds don’t run out of condis.

Yes, a condi build that ran out of condis would be a pretty sorry build.

However, toughness doesn’t stop all direct damage. I’m not clear what kind of damage mitigation you’re looking for, here. Do you want condition clears that can stop all condition damage?

Oh I can run out of burns and poisons and have my heavy condi hitters go to cooldown…..

so many foolish statement are flying around by probably ppl who dont understand

i try to make it simple

direct dmg – 1 hit can cause great dmg if crit and good dmg if not crit.

so watch if you got weakness, blind , if enemy block, evade, and got dodge before you burst him. also predict your timing so you can do combo and smash button and AA to finish him

condi dmg – 1 hit CANT cause great dmg if crit either good dmg if not crit.

so need to land several hit to stack up several conditions so cleanse wont be easy. count the number of cleanse enemy have ,watch out of blind, if enemy block (in some cases), evade, and got dodge before you burst him. also predict your timing so you can do combo and smash button and AA to stack conditions

condition ignore armor but also got condi cleanse to negate the dmg. direct dmg doesnt has cleanse if it hit only healing same as for condition. this is the reason why condi ignore armor.

so learn the necro rotation, memser shatter rotation and warrior head stun rotation.

both are involving pressing buttons. but smart player will press them in order at the right time and kill you in 7 sec while not smart player will take 1 min to do the same job

see attached 7 sec killing ele . is he smashing buttons ? am i ?
https://youtu.be/Gm4RcxJ-ikM?t=34

I tried responding to people but I don’t think it does any good. I feel like people are just ignoring everything that is said in this thread and just jump right to the bottom to regurgitate the same old crap that has been discussed to death. And it is normally over-exaggerated and just plain false information. Meanwhile, people are trying to explain how condi actually works and how it isn’t op, and they are either ignored or get more ridiculously false, ignorant, or exagerrated statements in return. At this point I’m pretty sure the anti-condi party is just a bunch of trolls, cause I refuse to believe that such a large group of irrational people exist.

Rodzynald.5897:

Raek.8504:

Rodzynald.5897:

Raek.8504:

Look, With power damage, you just have to pressure the enemy until they waste dodges, and then to press 2 bottons and relax, your enemy is already dead.

Block, block, block, immune, immune, block, miss, miss + toughness, perhaps invulnerability or teleportation, burst healing…
Should I go on about counters to power damage?

Block, block, block, immune, immune, block, miss, miss + vitality, perhaps invulnerability or teleportation, burst healing…

Should i go on about counters to condition damage?

So you say that once you got condis on you, you can block them and make them miss? Have you seen how fat damage those make? Vitality will make you endure 2 seconds longer, invulnerability and teleportation won’t help and burst healing will make you suffer for a little bit longer if you won’t cleanse.
There is only immunity in the form of resistance that is a quite rare boon, not for everyone.
You could say that this is a counter before you get struck with condi spell but such counters are are for power as well. We are talking about condi damage and their application rate overall which will be put on you sooner or later despite trying to block and evade.

EDIT:
As for that part with dodge = dodge and evade = ancestral grace
Check this out: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Evade
“Evading can be achieved by a carefully timed dodge an instant before the blow lands”
This means that dodge makes you evade attacks, nuff’ said.

So you are telling me that after you have been burst with power damage that blocks and invulnerabilities goes back in time and stops the damage?

BOTH condition damage and power damage in this game is cheese and easy to apply. People need to stop acting like there is a higher skill to applying one over the other.

Guys what are we talking about… if condi werent so much easier and more efficient, every people would play berserker amulet. Even marauder is not even meta anymore, cuz the only class marauder meta (revenant) cant do nothing if not carried by an ele cleanse bot.

Arguing that condi require any sort of skill is totaly kittened, since the only thing you are doing is spamming buttons/procs and hoping the opponent will burn his cleanse, you are not timing a kitten, all you have to do is survive, when you play condi you can totaly ignore any opponent skill animation and just keep your rotation/spam, thats all what you have to do. Playing condi is lazy because you can play defensively all the time, cuz your damage over time is better than any power based build, wich instead is based on a timed burst, penalty for failing it is the lost. So any decent brain gived player know that all he has to do is survive that initial burst, and let the condi win for them.
People blaming the power creep in hot, i blame that last year patch buffing condi to the limit of ruining a game, that likely how the opener is telling, was much more fun to watch and to play years ago.

People keep talking about evades as counter to condi, evades are NOT the counter to condi, cuz it doesnt matter wich skill you dodge, any of the following skill will proc and inflict condis… there’s not a specific skill to nerf like True Shot, or Gunflame or even precision strike… as i said in other topic, condi are coming out from every farth the player is doing!!!! It doesnt matter if you dodge the skill that inflicts 5 stack of poison instead of the one that inflicts 10, cuz anyway the dmg will be better than a power based attack against a toghness stat.

Against power/zerker, you avoid the burst, or even when bursted just play safely and kite and you will be fine, able to reset the fight by healing etc.. against condi you run out of condi cleanser and you are kittened, no way to reset or to kite or to recover. I’ve won duels in zerker vs zerker where i could be able to recover from lowest hp ever, thx to my use of blocks/evades and dodges, and nice timing of healing and kiting, but against a condi player there’s absolutely NO WAY to recover.

You should stop defending this condi meta, the game is horrible since june patch, and anet developers should start using younger fast reaction skilled players when trying theyr own game, cuz i think average age of anet balance team is over 40, judging by theyr love on condis.

Each class needs to have a “remove 1 or 2 Dmg Condi” ability to counterplay a condi burst. Remove “impairing condi” skills to counter impairing effects. Global cleanse skills can vary from class to class. Can still have traits that adds an additional condi cleanse, these can be a global cleanse but on a per class basis.

This was already suggested before but I agree that having this change is needed for counter play purposes.

Basicly now there’s only a little difference between a DPS that use direct damage or condition damage. They both can kill you. Just with different timing and better/worst in different situations.

Conditions have no mitigation in damage? Wrong!
There’s even more skills/boons/abilities/traits/amulets/runes that reduce Condition damage than direct damage, and frequently they Cance All the condition damage!
Examples:
1-Weapon/F1 Skills) A warrior can clean 3 conditions (with all the stack they have) every 3,x seconds landing his F1 while in berserker (everyone that don’t use that trait can’t blame if die against conditions). There’s a large amount of skills that clean conditions (every good build have at last 2 with a fast/decent cooldown and that clear 1 or, frequently, more conditions). Thief sword clean conditions. Elementalist have a large amount of clean condi skills in water, expecially combined with the trait for the regen that clean condi. Necro have the dagger skill 4 to Send Back conditions. Guardian Focus 4 clean conditions. And more and more and more weapon skills.
there’s a total of 11 Weapon Skills that clean/transfer/convert conditions for you and/or your allies.
2-Utility/healing/Elite skills) There’s a insanely large amount of utility skills that clean/convert/transfer conditions from you and/or your allies. A total of 46 utility/class mechanism skills that clean/convert conditions for you and/or your allies. They totally Clean All the damage the conditions will do, reducing they’re damage up to 100%.
3-Sigil/Rune) Different Runes reduce the duration of Condition damage, reducing the damage con conditions up to 25% without any need of skills or boons. Also some Sigils grant you the chance to clean or send back conditions.
4-Resistance)There’s 13 skills/traits/runes that gran Resistance, a boon that grant you a total immunity from any condition effect (then also damage), and some classes can spam it pretty well (example: Revenant)
5-Traits) There’s a total of 29 traits that clean/transfer/reduce conditions in damage or duration. With also 3 traits that Benefit from any condition you have.
6-Combos) Combos with Light fields grant you the chance to clean conditions on your allies.
7-Immunity) there’s different skills that make you Immune to any kind of skill, making you immune to both direct and new condition damage. is a thing really strong.

Then you have to count that there’s also all the condi/evade/block skills that make you miss your enemy and then reduce your condition damage. Just why yes, you can stack a lot of condi and then run, but your damage will not grow upand not be refreshed, making you lose a large amount of damage still if you’re dealing damage with your old skills.

Yes, sometimes conditions appear as an easier way to fight, but if you look to all the things that can cancel all the damage of the conditions that afflict you or that you stack on the enemy, you can see clearly that isn’t so easy to fight with conditions.

Conditions can appear to be Op, but only why you can see all that stack on you and fear them. But I can say that a good thief, guardian dps or revenant can steal you half of your hp with lesser skills than a condition user need to active to do that.

I play sometimes my guardian meditrapper and is insanely easy to kill someone if you make your burst rotation. LB 2, GS 3, 2, 5, traps, 5, and the enemy is barely dead.

Yes, the condition damage is strong and everyone still think that it had not to be strong enough to kill you. But ANet made conditions builds able to kill players and able to inflict a really good damage, still without any kind of “Burst”.

Basicly, direct damage is for Burst actions, to take down an enemy fast and end quickly a fight. Condition damage was better for longer fights, where you have the time to stack your conditions on the enemy to inflict your damage (why to inflict a good condition damage you have to stack different conditions and a lot of stack, not only press two buttons like everyone think).

If you die quickly in a team fight at 90% you’ve been focused and for shure 70-80% of the damage that take you down was Direct damage.

Condition damage is strong, but over 9 classes only 3 use conditions. There’s a reason, don’t you think?

“Condition damage is strong, but over 9 classes only 3 use conditions. There’s a reason, don’t you think?”

Where did you get this information? It doesn’t matter because you didn’t get it from the general player base in GW2. As much as some people would love for pro-league and metabattle to set the standard, it doesn’t. I would guess the amount of people who follow these forums would be comparable to the people who know what mettabatle is.

On the issue of “cover conditions,” that is something that should be fixed, but should be relatively easy to fix.

1. Visibility. Right now, all conditions are red on the toolbar. This can make it hard to tell, in a high condi push, whether you’re covered in bleeds and burns, or in cripples and vulnerability, taking more attention to decide when to cleanse. To solve this, change all Boons from gold to blue icons, and all non-damaging conditions to yellow (for “warning”). This way, you can see on the bar how many deadly conditions you have, and how many weakening ones you have, and make decisions more carefully without wasting too much attention on it.

2. Condi stacks can get large, and it’s hard to tell whether you have small or large stacks of them. Solution: make the icons get bigger at various steps. Make it so that after 5-10 stacks of a bleed, the icon gets larger. Another 5-10 stacks, bigger still, so that a 25+ stack of bleed is very noticeably larger than other icons. This way you know what the biggest threats are.

3. Make all condi cleanses prioritize the biggest threats intelligently. Make sure that it prioritizes one stack of bleed or burn over one stack of weakness or cripple. Make sure that it prioritizes a large stack of bleed over a single stack of burn. Ideally, also make sure that it prioritizes a large stack of Vulnerability over a small stack of damage, but if that’s impossible then at least do the other stuff.

Tbh, the debate about condition damage vs power damage is rather old. What most posts neglect is the actual amount of damage one attack does.

There are a whole range of attacks that add several conditions and do 5-12k (probably a lot higher) of damage if you don’t cleanse them. This could sort of be okay, if the cooldown of cleanses was similar to that of these skills.

But they are not. And cleanses aren’t focused either. So I just removed blind and torment, but kept the 12 stacks of bleed on me…

The whole problem with conditions is that it takes away control from a lot of players. And yes, (melee) power is a lot harder than condition damage to apply and keep at it..

But sure, keep on being an ostrich..

Hanza.6872:

Tbh, the debate about condition damage vs power damage is rather old. What most posts neglect is the actual amount of damage one attack does.

There are a whole range of attacks that add several conditions and do 5-12k (probably a lot higher) of damage if you don’t cleanse them. This could sort of be okay, if the cooldown of cleanses was similar to that of these skills.

But they are not. And cleanses aren’t focused either. So I just removed blind and torment, but kept the 12 stacks of bleed on me…

The whole problem with conditions is that it takes away control from a lot of players. And yes, (melee) power is a lot harder than condition damage to apply and keep at it..

But sure, keep on being an ostrich..

Three button presses that does 10-12k damage. Condition or power?

Shaogin.2679:

I tried responding to people but I don’t think it does any good. I feel like people are just ignoring everything that is said in this thread and just jump right to the bottom to regurgitate the same old crap that has been discussed to death. And it is normally over-exaggerated and just plain false information. Meanwhile, people are trying to explain how condi actually works and how it isn’t op, and they are either ignored or get more ridiculously false, ignorant, or exagerrated statements in return. At this point I’m pretty sure the anti-condi party is just a bunch of trolls, cause I refuse to believe that such a large group of irrational people exist.

Never underestimate the irrational populous.

Pyriall.1683:

Hanza.6872:

Tbh, the debate about condition damage vs power damage is rather old. What most posts neglect is the actual amount of damage one attack does.

There are a whole range of attacks that add several conditions and do 5-12k (probably a lot higher) of damage if you don’t cleanse them. This could sort of be okay, if the cooldown of cleanses was similar to that of these skills.

But they are not. And cleanses aren’t focused either. So I just removed blind and torment, but kept the 12 stacks of bleed on me…

The whole problem with conditions is that it takes away control from a lot of players. And yes, (melee) power is a lot harder than condition damage to apply and keep at it..

But sure, keep on being an ostrich..

Three button presses that does 10-12k damage. Condition or power?

You keep making this argument. It’s moot.

For example, on a condi Mesmer vs a warrior.

Warrior has to get close, on a Mesmer I can simply sit back from range and spam clones and shatters. The skill ceiling is ridiculously low.

Furajir.3815:

Pyriall.1683:

Hanza.6872:

Tbh, the debate about condition damage vs power damage is rather old. What most posts neglect is the actual amount of damage one attack does.

There are a whole range of attacks that add several conditions and do 5-12k (probably a lot higher) of damage if you don’t cleanse them. This could sort of be okay, if the cooldown of cleanses was similar to that of these skills.

But they are not. And cleanses aren’t focused either. So I just removed blind and torment, but kept the 12 stacks of bleed on me…

The whole problem with conditions is that it takes away control from a lot of players. And yes, (melee) power is a lot harder than condition damage to apply and keep at it..

But sure, keep on being an ostrich..

Three button presses that does 10-12k damage. Condition or power?

You keep making this argument. It’s moot.

For example, on a condi Mesmer vs a warrior.

Warrior has to get close, on a Mesmer I can simply sit back from range and spam clones and shatters. The skill ceiling is ridiculously low.

It’s not moot, you’re only stating that because it doesn’t fit your narrative. A power build can sit back as well and do the same type of damage from ranged. The point I’m addressing is to people, like yourself, who are contending that power builds require more skill and are less cheese. My point is, that both power and condition builds are cheese and easy.

messiah.1908:

so many foolish statement are flying around by probably ppl who dont understand

i try to make it simple

direct dmg – 1 hit can cause great dmg if crit and good dmg if not crit.

so watch if you got weakness, blind , if enemy block, evade, and got dodge before you burst him. also predict your timing so you can do combo and smash button and AA to finish him

condi dmg – 1 hit CANT cause great dmg if crit either good dmg if not crit.

so need to land several hit to stack up several conditions so cleanse wont be easy. count the number of cleanse enemy have ,watch out of blind, if enemy block (in some cases), evade, and got dodge before you burst him. also predict your timing so you can do combo and smash button and AA to stack conditions

condition ignore armor but also got condi cleanse to negate the dmg. direct dmg doesnt has cleanse if it hit only healing same as for condition. this is the reason why condi ignore armor.

so learn the necro rotation, memser shatter rotation and warrior head stun rotation.

both are involving pressing buttons. but smart player will press them in order at the right time and kill you in 7 sec while not smart player will take 1 min to do the same job

see attached 7 sec killing ele . is he smashing buttons ? am i ?
https://youtu.be/Gm4RcxJ-ikM?t=34

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vdAQFASlcTh2tYtWw6KQ7FLsFFYIWiBgYHVFPBdzP8PPA-TJhAwAAeAAw2fYzFAgcZA

In 1 hit, regardless of what I use, I could technically apply

poison 8 sec (1020 damage DoT) – doom sig, 2 stacks burn (3,741 damage DoT) – FT toolbelt, bleed (damage 464 DoT) firearms trait, vulnerability, burn (5237 damage DoT) – IP,

And this is at 0 MIGHT ! an engi with alchemy and elixrs is never running at 0 might. I will only be caught dead at less than 10.

I am not counting anything to do with the actual skill itself. And I have avoided other condition procing sigils aside from doom.

Now if I hit you with thunderclap you also have more vuln and are stunned on top of it. or my posion mortar field, or my napalm attack or my poison EG, or chill mortar… whatever have you.

So sure my crit might not do much damage…. but while your dazed from thunder clap your not going to be having much fun. And that’s just my opener.

Realistically I’m not going to proc all of it on first hit, but by the second or third you’ll have it all and much more because… stacking.

Now show me what a reasonable power build that could actually play ranked can do in a single hit if they get lucky… and remember I haven’t added might, or any of the actual damage from the hit itself, or any of the conditions that hit would directly apply ie. napalm setting on fire for 6 additional seconds.

Furajir.3815:

Warrior has to get close, on a Mesmer I can simply sit back from range and spam clones and shatters. The skill ceiling is ridiculously low.

Even with Time Catches Up, that’s a really good way to get your Shatters blocked/evaded. And you probably want to be in melee range anyway to get the additional torment/confusion stacks from you counting as an extra illusion with each shatter, not to mention any additional bleeds from the fairly common Sigil of Geomancy.

Garadon.3189:

Furajir.3815:

Warrior has to get close, on a Mesmer I can simply sit back from range and spam clones and shatters. The skill ceiling is ridiculously low.

Even with Time Catches Up, that’s a really good way to get your Shatters blocked/evaded. And you probably want to be in melee range anyway to get the additional torment/confusion stacks from you counting as an extra illusion with each shatter, not to mention any additional bleeds from the fairly common Sigil of Geomancy.

You’re just proving his point further. He’s having success w/out knowing the basic mechanics of the class because condi carries less skilled players in its current form

shion.2084:

Now show me what a reasonable power build that could actually play ranked can do in a single hit if they get lucky… and remember I haven’t added might, or any of the actual damage from the hit itself, or any of the conditions that hit would directly apply ie. napalm setting on fire for 6 additional seconds.

Pretty much any power build will do more dmg than your condi scrapper build, which is as “reasonable” as signet burst thief or zerk gunflame warrior or valk melee ranger – all builds which can hit for 10k+ in one single hit, with overall much higher dmg output.

(Btw IP is one of the condi traits i hate the most, because i think it is too much dmg for being an unavoidable proc – but overall condi engi/scrapper is far from being op and clearly subpar to power scrapper).

Azukas.1426:

Garadon.3189:

Furajir.3815:

Warrior has to get close, on a Mesmer I can simply sit back from range and spam clones and shatters. The skill ceiling is ridiculously low.

Even with Time Catches Up, that’s a really good way to get your Shatters blocked/evaded. And you probably want to be in melee range anyway to get the additional torment/confusion stacks from you counting as an extra illusion with each shatter, not to mention any additional bleeds from the fairly common Sigil of Geomancy.

You’re just proving his point further. He’s having success w/out knowing the basic mechanics of the class because condi carries less skilled players in its current form

No he’s not. You’re ignoring the fact that his discussion is about ranged vs melee. A ranged power player can do the same exact thing to a melee class.

Azukas.1426:

Garadon.3189:

Furajir.3815:

Warrior has to get close, on a Mesmer I can simply sit back from range and spam clones and shatters. The skill ceiling is ridiculously low.

Even with Time Catches Up, that’s a really good way to get your Shatters blocked/evaded. And you probably want to be in melee range anyway to get the additional torment/confusion stacks from you counting as an extra illusion with each shatter, not to mention any additional bleeds from the fairly common Sigil of Geomancy.

You’re just proving his point further. He’s having success w/out knowing the basic mechanics of the class because condi carries less skilled players in its current form

If a player is losing to the type of gameplay Furajir described, the type of damage applied isn’t the major issue at hand.

Condi players will still keep their eyes closed before truth, trying to find silly excuses that Condi = Power in terms of application, counter and overall difficulty of mastering these both types of damage.
There is a quite huge part in community of GW2 players claiming that condi is over the threshold for a long time now and I don’t think that all of them are scrubs that don’t know what they are talking about.
Just face it, these are facts.

drcraig.9403:

Saiyan.1704:

War, Nec, & Mes are typically the only viable condi classes and only Mes would “run away”. There’s a reason why no condi teams exist in spvp… they’re not very efficient. In a way, other condi classes other than these 3 takes more skill to make work.

Have you watched the pro league series? Not sure how many times one the commentators will shout " omg look at the condis!!!" Or something like that. If I had to guess the reason more condi builds aren’t used is because group comp needs support builds.

Well to be fair the shoutcasters are working with terrible material and terrible game mechanics that don’t even support good spectating.

Neither power, condi nor hybrid builds take skill to apply and deal damage. Face it, dealing damage is easy in this game. Every build “spams” skills and has a ridiculous number of ways to deal damage.

Survival on the other hand… well the only difference depends on amulet stat choices.
For example Rabid and Wanderer do trade a significant amount of direct damage for toughness and kill slowly. The toughness is required for the time to kill an enemy.

For the record I’m playing Viper amulet on mesmer – all it takes is one sneeze to kill me.

People used to fist fight, then the club was invented and people who used it were considered cowards. Then came knives, they were for unskilled people because all you had to do was stick them with the pointy end. Ten came swords, were were even more unskilled because they longer. Then came bows which were for true cowards to fire from walls up high. Then came gun powder and pistols..the ultimate in coward…and eventually here we are at inter-ballistic continental missiles. Push a button from thousands of miles away and let the GPS, lazer sighting do the rest..the ultimate in unskilled, lazy and cowardliness.

Things change..either you change with them and protect against them, or sit round hoping to find that one person who will still draw pistols with you at dawn.

Rodzynald.5897:

Condi players will still keep their eyes closed before truth, trying to find silly excuses that Condi = Power in terms of application, counter and overall difficulty of mastering these both types of damage.
There is a quite huge part in community of GW2 players claiming that condi is over the threshold for a long time now and I don’t think that all of them are scrubs that don’t know what they are talking about.
Just face it, these are facts.

Some people whined about condi damage. Yeah, it obviously must be fact.

It’s posts like yours that make it real hard for anyone to take you people seriously.

CntrlAltDefeat.1465:

People used to fist fight, then the club was invented and people who used it were considered cowards. Then came knives, they were for unskilled people because all you had to do was stick them with the pointy end. Ten came swords, were were even more unskilled because they longer. Then came bows which were for true cowards to fire from walls up high. Then came gun powder and pistols..the ultimate in coward…and eventually here we are at inter-ballistic continental missiles. Push a button from thousands of miles away and let the GPS, lazer sighting do the rest..the ultimate in unskilled, lazy and cowardliness.

Things change..either you change with them and protect against them, or sit round hoping to find that one person who will still draw pistols with you at dawn.

People used to respect hunters to the point of dedicating gods to hunting, then when the gun was invented that all changed. At least with a bow and arrow you need to reload by the arrow so each shot matters and manually put the right amount of power into a shot. People do however respect pro athletes and martial artists.

If I lose to a revenant, druid, or thief as a druid, thief or revenant in any of those combinations then props.

Please answer by which takes more skill

1. Power Mesmer vs Condi Mesmer
2. Power Necro vs Condi Necro
3. Power Thief vs Condi Thief
4. Power warrior vs Condi warrior
5. Power engi vs Condi engi
6. Power Ranger vs Condi ranger
7. Power guardian vs Condi guardian
8. Power Ele vs Condi Ele
9. Power Rev vs Condi Rev

Pretty sure condi wins out being the easiest in just about every case

Azukas.1426:

Please answer by which takes more skill

1. Power Mesmer vs Condi Mesmer
2. Power Necro vs Condi Necro
3. Power Thief vs Condi Thief
4. Power warrior vs Condi warrior
5. Power engi vs Condi engi
6. Power Ranger vs Condi ranger
7. Power guardian vs Condi guardian
8. Power Ele vs Condi Ele
9. Power Rev vs Condi Rev

Pretty sure condi wins out in just about every case

I feel like you guys just aren’t trying hard enough anymore. Power Thief wins. Power Engi wins. Power Ranger wins. Power Guardian wins. Power Rev wins.

See? Do you at least feel a little ashamed of yourself now?

Also, lol, the condi ele might win, maybe, years down the road, that fight would last forever and be so boring to watch.

Another one of these threads? This is my reaction to reading some of the… ri-diculous comments about condis:
https://youtu.be/GsbGh8HPkMY?t=50s -Just replace Sonic with “Condis”

p.s. glad at several people are sensible though so props to you lads

Shaogin.2679:

Azukas.1426:

Please answer by which takes more skill

1. Power Mesmer vs Condi Mesmer
2. Power Necro vs Condi Necro
3. Power Thief vs Condi Thief
4. Power warrior vs Condi warrior
5. Power engi vs Condi engi
6. Power Ranger vs Condi ranger
7. Power guardian vs Condi guardian
8. Power Ele vs Condi Ele
9. Power Rev vs Condi Rev

Pretty sure condi wins out being the eadiest in just about every case

I feel like you guys just aren’t trying hard enough anymore. Power Thief wins. Power Engi wins. Power Ranger wins. Power Guardian wins. Power Rev wins.

See? Do you at least feel a little ashamed of yourself now?

Also, lol, the condi ele might win, maybe, years down the road, that fight would last forever and be so boring to watch.

My point is proven condi takes less skill.

Had to edit my phones auto correct on the post u quoted

Azukas.1426:

Shaogin.2679:

Azukas.1426:

Please answer by which takes more skill

1. Power Mesmer vs Condi Mesmer
2. Power Necro vs Condi Necro
3. Power Thief vs Condi Thief
4. Power warrior vs Condi warrior
5. Power engi vs Condi engi
6. Power Ranger vs Condi ranger
7. Power guardian vs Condi guardian
8. Power Ele vs Condi Ele
9. Power Rev vs Condi Rev

Pretty sure condi wins out being the eadiest in just about every case

I feel like you guys just aren’t trying hard enough anymore. Power Thief wins. Power Engi wins. Power Ranger wins. Power Guardian wins. Power Rev wins.

See? Do you at least feel a little ashamed of yourself now?

Also, lol, the condi ele might win, maybe, years down the road, that fight would last forever and be so boring to watch.

My point is proven condi takes less skill.

Had to edit my phones auto correct on the post u quoted

So 5/9 is the smaller fraction?

The only no-skill condition in my opinion is confusion. There are too many skills that apply too many stacks and you don’t need that much to insta K.O yourself. And even if you don’t do anything, it will still tick for a lot. That’s what makes some classes way too annoying to fight. (IMO condi necros are fine)

Condition shatter mesmer has a completely different playstyle than power shatter. Here is why:

Power mesmer:
- set up your 3 illusions so that they are placed near the enemy
- press f3 and f1 (refill illusions to 3 in between if necessary)
- dmg
- if target is dead stop here
- kite the target from range while waiting for cd
- repeat

Condition Mesmer:
- set up your 3 illusions so that they are placed near the enemy
- press f2, f3 and f1 (refill illusions to 3 in between if necessary)
- dmg
- if target is dead stop here
- kite the target from range while waiting for cd
- repeat

As you see its so different and boring to play.

wow the same condi build complaints.

it’s been 3+ years. anet obviously doesn’t care.

get over it or quit the game. you’re just wasting your time.

Shaogin.2679:

Some people whined about condi damage. Yeah, it obviously must be fact.

It’s posts like yours that make it real hard for anyone to take you people seriously.

I’d like to understand why I mostly hear about condi than about power damage that is to blame in certain situations.
I played PvP in many games that include DoT type of dealing harm to others and I met with many people telling me that condi is just for those who like that stand in a safe spot and watching people melt. Even some of my guildies that have about few K’s of matches played and reached legend divs say the same that condi in this game is ridiculous.
You seem to have good arguments about condition damage, but can you tell me why people look at condi in such a harsh manner? Are you gonna tell me that they are just scrubs and that’s all?
Are you gonna tell me that condi is not dropping dots and watching people die in time?

Rodzynald.5897:

Shaogin.2679:

Some people whined about condi damage. Yeah, it obviously must be fact.

It’s posts like yours that make it real hard for anyone to take you people seriously.

I’d like to understand why I mostly hear about condi than about power damage that is to blame in certain situations.
I played PvP in many games that include DoT type of dealing harm to others and I met with many people telling me that condi is just for those who like that stand in a safe spot and watching people melt. Even some of my guildies that have about few K’s of matches played and reached legend divs say the same that condi in this game is ridiculous.
You seem to have good arguments about condition damage, but can you tell me why people look at condi in such a harsh manner? Are you gonna tell me that they are just scrubs and that’s all?
Are you gonna tell me that condi is not dropping dots and watching people die in time?

Okay, do your people “who reached leg devision” have ever tried to dodge mesmer’s clones ? Or maybe kite Death shroud ? Or maybe dodge headbutt ?

People are lazy, they don’t like to think how to counter anything, they just want free kills, that’s why there are nerf calling threads for 8/9 classes when pvp atm has some sort of balance.

Azukas.1426:

Please answer by which takes more skill

4. Power warrior vs Condi warrior

I main war, they are both equally easy.

Get yourself cleansing elly.

Uhmm… yes? Isn’t that obvious?
But you can’t dodge (unless daredevil) for days, at some point you will get hit and get those condis that sometimes deal as much damage as power abilities, every 1 second.
DS is quite easy to kite, clones too or just pop them with some hard AoE.
For headbutt? It is a little bit harder to dodge it in the right time in all that cluster of magic particles flying around during a teamfight. Perhaps in 1v1 but let’s consider the 1/2 second cast time and animation, how close warrior is. (let’s add up lower fps if one does not have a beast to run GW2)