Guild Wars 2

So I’ve been trying to get better at pvp, and I’ve recently moved from rabbit to wolf in two~three months. My main is guardian as in WvW and PvE, so I’ve learned/watched/played a fair number of matches using meditation build, support/bunker build, and hybrid build. The matches that I usually do are mainly solo Q and hot joins, although I do sometimes join team Q with full guild members.

That said, I really do think there is an immense gap between existing players in PvP playbase and newcomers such as myself. In rabbit and dear rank, I was matched up with people of my rank, and although game lacked any strategies and capturing/fighting in nodes, I still had fun. The problem started when I reached dolyak rank and I was facing shark/phoenix/dragons as my opponents. Now I know that after April patch finisher ranks have lost their prestige to certain extent, but it was still overwhelming for me to handle.

From casually winning/losing game while learning how to utilize PvP tactics such as LoS on rocks/walls, positioning, personal skill combos/etc, I am now matched up with people who are at least decent to excellent in their professions. After losing 10+ matches straight, I’ve lost intrested in PvP for a while and retreated to WvW and Pve. After a month or two, I’ve tried PvP again because of new trek rewards and PvP finishers, and I was able to endure all of Skyhammer, 4v5, 3v5, afkers, people with amazing skills and people with no skills to achieve wolf rank.

The problem I see is that matchmaking system is terrible and it is the main reason why people don’t want to PvP anymore. As an experienced PvE player who can earn 30~40g+ a day just by selling paths and running dungeons/fractals, I personally think lack of reward isn’t the problem. The community toxicity is much lower than what I’ve expected from such competitive players and gameplay itself is very fast paced and exciting. However the problem comes from high learning curves, very short/unnoticeable animations depending on skills/race and the horrible, horrible match making. There is no way that I’d ever want to play against a team of dragons and phoenixes when I am only starting to learn how to read animations and apply my own skill combos, or deal with 4v5/3v5 while receiving meager 300 rank points.

Anet should implement much better making software/program and try to attract more people for PvP since there is almost no unity in this type of gameplay. At least in WvW people are grouped into servers, whereas in PvP even friends and guildmates are prone to fighting each other. A new gameplay mode such as capture the flag/deathmatch/etc can be a short term fix, but anet should do much more than hosting some tournaments because frankly it has lesser viewers than DnT PvE tournament. There should be certain benefits for PvP players such as increase trek progression by 5% in guild upgrade system and/or comprehensive guide made by Anet devs themselves to help newcomers.

As of now I am taking break from PvP once again due to RL reasons and WvW tournament, but I really wish PvP gets some major patch as much as I wish for new dungeons/fractals in PvE. I really hope Anet drops Living World as their main focus and start working on other gameplays that really need fixing and revamping, but I don’t think I will see that until release of gw3. Just my two cents :P

Couldn’t have said it better myself

This deserves a bump. Very will written and constructive post coming from someone fairly new to pvp. Yet Anet doesn’t seem to grasp this idea or just have completely given up on pvp.

This is the same old problem. Playerbase is too small.

After you’ve passed a certain “treshold”, leaving the real newcomers (noobs) behind, you can’t possibly be matched with opponents with your skill level because the higher you get the tinier the population becomes and you’ll eventually face too stronger opponents.

Theys Pros and Con’s to this, Playing with people far more experienced than you while frustrating to Loose vs them sometimes even get dominated by them, It teaches you a lot of things, Eg. NOT to go for NPC straight from the get go. Learning what engagements you should get in and which ones to avoid and do something else.

If you stayed with the same skilled players it’ll be harder to improve. as you don’t need to think about what you do, as in every match the thief will probably run on point and tank every piece of AoE the team has to offer and rise and repeat.

I went through the same thing and it made me a better player I’m Rank80 and been since after April 15th, but rank doesn’t always mean skilled i’ve played vs and with same ranked guys who seem to have just started the game. wasting Dodges on Auto attacks and then face tank their burst as they were so easily baited to dodge roll.

A very honest and genuine sounding post.

Aqualung.6324:

Theys Pros and Con’s to this, Playing with people far more experienced than you while frustrating to Loose vs them sometimes even get dominated by them, It teaches you a lot of things, Eg. NOT to go for NPC straight from the get go. Learning what engagements you should get in and which ones to avoid and do something else.

If you stayed with the same skilled players it’ll be harder to improve. as you don’t need to think about what you do, as in every match the thief will probably run on point and tank every piece of AoE the team has to offer and rise and repeat.

I went through the same thing and it made me a better player I’m Rank80 and been since after April 15th, but rank doesn’t always mean skilled i’ve played vs and with same ranked guys who seem to have just started the game. wasting Dodges on Auto attacks and then face tank their burst as they were so easily baited to dodge roll.

I understand where you are coming from, but there is a huge difference between gradually improving vs massacred til you lose all interest in specific gameplay. As I said, people of rabbit/deer rank aren’t given clear instruction on which engagement to avoid, what types of skill certain classes/professions use most, and the combos+skills that players use based on their traits and such. There are just too many things to take care of as well as being aware of maps/team fight composition, cooldowns, that average players like myself often forget to rez people even in downstate.

Also the concept of hardrally is pretty difficult to comprehend if a user never played wvw/pvp before. Most people ignore any downed enemies and try to rez their teammate only to be stomped. The entire PvP experience is also different from most of the gameplay because unlike wvw and pve, having a bad teammate or two can be detrimental to win/loss situation. PvP is simply too punishing for any newcomers who aren’t well versed in that area.

People ultimately want to get better, but then only few are willing to play the game after being stomped millions of times without knowing why or how to counter/prevent such situation other than going afk. PvP base will only diminish further and further unless Anet comes up with new patch which also include different maps/types of gameplay

beautiful statement by the OP. i experienced absolutely the same, except it was before april patch. just stick to it and it’ll pay off, despite all the QQ now and then.

It seems PvP isn’t attractive to casual players who value sPvP the same as WvW or PvE. Though you can learn from playing against better players and watching ToL videos, much players do not want to put that effort in to become better at PvP. For these players some sort of new ladder system is important, so they can match up with people with the same skills.

It happens in every game sadly unless you are playing MOBAS which have millions of people doing PvP

There is a lack of interest in PvP in nearly every game because people don’t like losing. The true PvP players don’t care about losing because we are used to it.

Do you think I got to the player I am today by fighting against people my own skill level? No, I had to kill people way above my skill level and adapt just like everyone else.

The “easiest” way to get better at pvp is to constantly, and I mean CONSTANTLY, predict your opponent, you are going to have to develop the same understanding (and more to surpass) that people of higher skill have purely due to experience. The good players didn’t learn how to play via a tutorial. But I completely agree with op. Once you are versed enough to comprehend builds based solely on the enemies buffs and weapon set (granted some are difficult because of lack of animations etc.) you can begin to outplay them. It’s not easy, but it is fun.

Vicariuz.1605:

The “easiest” way to get better at pvp is to constantly, and I mean CONSTANTLY, predict your opponent, you are going to have to develop the same understanding (and more to surpass) that people of higher skill have purely due to experience. The good players didn’t learn how to play via a tutorial. But I completely agree with op. Once you are versed enough to comprehend builds based solely on the enemies buffs and weapon set (granted some are difficult because of lack of animations etc.) you can begin to outplay them. It’s not easy, but it is fun.

The OP is not confused on how to get better, rather he is making this point:

~ More people would play if they could learn from a loss
~ Rather than be confused by a complete massacre

Couldn’t agree more, someone need to step up better yet step down.
Once i was been told by Swift Arrow (Tengu) “We must learn from our defeats as well as our victories”.

Trevor Boyer.6524:

The OP is not confused on how to get better, rather he is making this point:

~ More people would play if they could learn from a loss
~ Rather than be confused by a complete massacre

And this will only happen if anet is willing to reshape many of the game’s systems for the sake of combat clarity.

Unfortunately, almost all the systems contribute to this problem, so the game would need an ambitious, large-scale reshaping for it to happen.

I mean, the entire trait system is a culprit. How do you fix a system that contributes up to 14 passive effects that proc automatically, all under different rules? How can a newcomer ever get the slight grasp of what contributed to their loss, when so many hidden effects, with each one being so different than the other, that trigger so many times without you noticing them, all under so many different conditions for triggers? What will be a newcomer’s reaction? Simple. “I have no idea what has just happened.” And then they win the next encounter because the RNG gods, the AI, the passives, the random dodges, the random everything was in they favor. How do they react? “I have no idea what has just happened, but I somehow won this one.”

GW2’s pvp combat is, simultaneously, too hardcore (you have to study every little detail hard to even get an idea of what is happening) and too casual (too much influence from passive effects, AI, procs, particle effects, lack of counterplay), which ultimately ends up NOT satisfying either of the two types of players. It’s a walking, messy contradiction.

DiogoSilva.7089:

How can a newcomer ever get the slight grasp of what contributed to their loss, when so many hidden effects, with each one being so different than the other, that trigger so many times without you noticing them, all under so many different conditions for triggers?

yes, how will he do that? just like us i guess. he learns. from the peak on. just like we did back then.

GW2’s pvp combat is, simultaneously, too hardcore (you have to study every little detail hard to even get an idea of what is happening) and too casual (too much influence from passive effects, AI, procs, particle effects, lack of counterplay), which ultimately ends up NOT satisfying either of the two types of players. It’s a walking, messy contradiction.

oh and yes, please dumb this game down even further. plx remove all teh butoons, dey make me dizzy.

tanztante.6532:

yes, how will he do that? just like us i guess. he learns. from the peak on. just like we did back then.

Nope. If the combat system gives to the playerbase the perception of a massive mess, then they will leave, like they have been leaving, and they won’t recommend to their friends the game, and they’ll move on, like they have been, to other games where the pvp scene is far healthier.

oh and yes, please dumb this game down even further. plx remove all teh butoons, dey make me dizzy.

Quite the contrary, this game is so needlessly complicated, that it dumbs down itself. By simplifying and clearing the excess of details, there’ll be a lot more room for learning, for skillful playing and for spectators to even understand what is happening around.

This concept might be hard to grasp, but let’s say that more complexity does not always leads to more depth. UI infodumping, condition spamming, pet zoo, passive proc spamming, aoe spamming and the like make the whole combat more “complicated” due to how messy it becomes, but that does not translates exactly to adding more depth to it – it actually dumbs down the enjoyment and the depth behind it, tremendously.

well for example casters resort to the useless flying cameras you can’t see kitten from, if they showed us the actual pov of players instead if would be so much better.

Inb4: “Removed sPvP because it was too confusing for new players.”

i had similar experience

i joined gw2 because of pvp actually (quit wow in mop), i was rather surprised to find out how underdeveloped pvp system is, felt almsot like beta version and not finished product (was during glory days)

i support pvp changes but i think they take too long, some issues were never solved (4v5, terrible LB and ranking system, 1 game mode etc.)

the game balance and 1 game mode also a let down, i am not talking about particular builds but just in generall how pvp atm is bunch of bunkers or army of AI.. hence why i don’t even bother watching tourneys… it is just not fun to watch

i think what the OP is saying is the huge gap between 2nd gen rank 80 vs veteran players, for example my bro. who is now rank 80 just started playing pvp after the patch which able players to reach rank 80 in a short time. but whenver we duel or play against each other the gap is so wide. yet we both have same rank. im not a hardcore pvper i have 5k gamesplayed and my lil bro has bout 1k+ i think. gaps between, vets and newbs are so wide, cant imagine newbs vs pros 0_0

Trevor Boyer.6524:

Vicariuz.1605:

The “easiest” way to get better at pvp is to constantly, and I mean CONSTANTLY, predict your opponent, you are going to have to develop the same understanding (and more to surpass) that people of higher skill have purely due to experience. The good players didn’t learn how to play via a tutorial. But I completely agree with op. Once you are versed enough to comprehend builds based solely on the enemies buffs and weapon set (granted some are difficult because of lack of animations etc.) you can begin to outplay them. It’s not easy, but it is fun.

The OP is not confused on how to get better, rather he is making this point:

~ More people would play if they could learn from a loss
~ Rather than be confused by a complete massacre

you should re-read the op with ur eyes open, he is wolf rank, clearly a lot to learn. I’m aware of the points he made, and agree with them.

“Anet should implement much better making software/program and try to attract more people for PvP since there is almost no unity in this type of gameplay.”

This!

Without wanting to defend Anet. How did they try to raise the pvp player base?

They tried to get pve players to take a look at pvp with the april patch.
They made some tournaments and put cash prices on it.

Two good moves in my opinion.

Unfortunately there are so many other things to do to to make new player have a good time in pvp. They know it. It’s in the forums day by day.

I agree that it likely all comes down to numbers. ANet has tried (with some success) to increase the base numbers of people playing PvP by introducing the reward tracks. (It certainly did get me started on PvP!) This group of players will basically play Hotjoin, and that’s likely where they’ll stay forever because it’s accessible and relatively stress-free.

From this base pool, you’ll then get a smaller crowd of people who like the competition and will want to get better. These are the guys who will probably do Solo Queue and maybe some Team Queue.

From this smaller pool, you’ll get the cream of the crop. They take part in official tournaments, and basically just stomp anybody below them.

Trouble is, the player base of PvP is small enough that all the experienced people in tiers 1 and 2 are basically known to each other. Even in Hotjoin, I find myself often running into the same players time and again. (Enough that I can sometimes tell on joining a match which team is going to win because I recognise the names of the more skilled players.)

At the end of the day, it really does come down to numbers. We need a big enough pool of casual PvP’ers from whom we can draw on to build up the higher tiers.

Thanks to everyone who were kind enough to reply on my rant. I just wanted to tell anet how frustrating the entire PvP system is when it comes to newcomers. Well after writing this post, I’ve played about 20~25 matches of Solo Q, 3~5 matches of Team Q, and what I’ve realized was a serious rubberbanding in matchmaking system. If I am on a winning streak, anet tries to stop me with every cheese it can throw, from skyhammer to 4v5 to 3v5. If I am on a losing streak, Anet will also try to rubberband me by placing me with team of high rank players vs really low rank/entry players.

Matchmaking system in gw2 pvp is terrible, and the leaderboard is a joke no doubt, but this game has some serious issue with rubberbanding and wanting to keep players such as myself at 50:50 win/loss ratio. I’ve just had a match with 2 new rabbit players in solo Q vs team of sharks and dragons when I was on my third winning streak. It didn’t matter how hard I tried, I could not do a single thing to flip the table. From having 50%+ winning, I went right back down to 50%. I’m speculating that once I go down below 50% winning rate, Anet will bump me back up again.

Instead of proving myself as a good pvp player, I’m only used as a tool to either bump or raise people’s rating. Also instead of earning my ranks and finishers because of my skills, it is all about getting lucky and having great teammates. I haven’t noticed many same players because I play at odd hours and random times, but if Anet wants to host a pvp tournament and gives away free legendary/money, they are not doing it right.

Hello frands! Vee Wee here, #1 Engi NA and world first rank 80!

Nice post frand! The issue is very simple! The community is TINY! There’s just not enough people near your rating to match you up with! Or maybe they’re just playing hotjoins! Enticing PvE players over with rewards isn’t going to help either! PvE players don’t enjoy playing PvP! If they did, then they wouldn’t need an incentive to play! If you enjoy doing something then doing it is its own reward! Don’t get Vee Wee wrong, the extra rewards from PvP have been long overdue for PvP players! But right now it’s just a bunch of PvE players grinding out achievements or the glorious armor reward track! Vee Wee was asked recently why Vee Wee continues to play Engineer when Vee Wee already has the Champion Genius title! That’s the kind of people that the reward tracks brought into PvP!

The problems have already been discussed thousands of time on these forums! Vee Wee made a thread that a dev replied to but no changes! Skyhammer! Leavers! Balance patches are few and far between! No pause feature! Wonky camera! Stagnant game mode! Lack of communication between teammates! So many things! But this thread will just be ignored like all the others and you’ll just have to hope and pray for good things to come in the next patch in spring 2015!

Bye frands! No wahoo this time! Typing this out made Vee Wee sad! ):

DiogoSilva.7089:

Quite the contrary, this game is so needlessly complicated, that it dumbs down itself. By simplifying and clearing the excess of details, there’ll be a lot more room for learning, for skillful playing and for spectators to even understand what is happening around.

This concept might be hard to grasp, but let’s say that more complexity does not always leads to more depth. UI infodumping, condition spamming, pet zoo, passive proc spamming, aoe spamming and the like make the whole combat more “complicated” due to how messy it becomes, but that does not translates exactly to adding more depth to it – it actually dumbs down the enjoyment and the depth behind it, tremendously.

I agree with you but I don’t think you expressed it in a way people can understand, so I’m just gonna use some examples to illustrate your point:
1. When every single removal skill (whether for condis or boons) has its own, unpublished priority list, so you can never be sure if you’re about to cleanse those 20 bleeds or that useless blind, that’s needless complexity.
2. When high-powered offensive skills have 0.25" cast time and no distinctive casting animation, so you’re better off knowing the standard rotations of every enemy build so you can guess when the opponent is going to use them and dodge rather than see them coming and dodge reactively, that’s needless complexity.
3. When you can’t see what your opponent is doing because they’re surrounded by blinding spell effects and a zoo of spirits the size of a gigantic shrub, so you don’t know what’s happenning next, that’s needless complexity.
4. When half of all elementalist skills have an attunement-dependent effect based on what attunement you were when you STARTED casting them, and half based on what attunement you were in when you finished casting them, that’s needless complexity.

I could go on all night. Basically, needless complexity is anything which you can’t react to on the fly, any skill you have to learn which can’t be transferred to playing a different profession, anything that requires you to learn to do something that relates specifically to narrow and arbitrary mechanics specific to either a particular build or a particular gamemode rather than to mmorpg combat in general.