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Posted by: nearlight.3064

nearlight.3064

Gain 2s Resistance upon executing Leap or Blast Finisher in a Combo Field. (5s ICD).

It shouldn’t have an ICD, it and should be like 3 seconds, but I think this would be an okay idea. Most eles burn most of their 2-3 blasts in one fire field at once, so an ICD would make it pretty bad.

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Taking a break from GW2 to play various
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Posted by: Quaman.9167

Quaman.9167

Celestial Elementalist traits water magic and equips Signet of Restoration. Sitting in water attunement and doing nothing (not even move or dodge) but auto-attacking, he keeps himself above 90% against a Carrion condition Necro (not Reaper) for a minimum of 8 seconds, possibly longer depending on the Necro’s life force.

It doesn’t even matter what weapon he has equipped.

That is the epitome of brainless and lack of skill. As soon as he starts doing literally anything else, the Necro has a much harder time. And Carrion builds actually have Power.

I’ve said it before, I’ve said it again: the trait needs an overhaul. Keep the anti-condition theme, sure, but make it less of a “win/lose” switch. You either auto-win, or you wasted your grandmaster slot. There is no middle ground with this trait. It needs a redesign to be less extreme and overall more useful. We have the Resistance boon now, so why not use it?

You should at the very least….go read the gw2 wiki before talking about other classes, a little necro tried to make its argument based on me generally calling wells everything on necro….well marks work same as wells, so just got wrong name OH WOW but you…

Saying that ele sit in water to heal..just broke all records on this forum, all you say from now on will be invalidated till the end of time.

I didn’t make any of my argument (which you never had a response to) by pointing out you calling marks wells. I literally put it at the end of my post as a side point. Even if you didn’t make that mistake, you still used a dated build and false information in your argument, which you linked yourself to show how you didn’t know anything about what you were talking about. “Read the gw2 wiki before talking about other classes”- You are setting some impressive records yourself.

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Posted by: Supreme.3164

Supreme.3164

Celestial Elementalist traits water magic and equips Signet of Restoration. Sitting in water attunement and doing nothing (not even move or dodge) but auto-attacking, he keeps himself above 90% against a Carrion condition Necro (not Reaper) for a minimum of 8 seconds, possibly longer depending on the Necro’s life force.

It doesn’t even matter what weapon he has equipped.

That is the epitome of brainless and lack of skill. As soon as he starts doing literally anything else, the Necro has a much harder time. And Carrion builds actually have Power.

I’ve said it before, I’ve said it again: the trait needs an overhaul. Keep the anti-condition theme, sure, but make it less of a “win/lose” switch. You either auto-win, or you wasted your grandmaster slot. There is no middle ground with this trait. It needs a redesign to be less extreme and overall more useful. We have the Resistance boon now, so why not use it?

You should at the very least….go read the gw2 wiki before talking about other classes, a little necro tried to make its argument based on me generally calling wells everything on necro….well marks work same as wells, so just got wrong name OH WOW but you…

Saying that ele sit in water to heal..just broke all records on this forum, all you say from now on will be invalidated till the end of time.

I didn’t make any of my argument (which you never had a response to) by pointing out you calling marks wells. I literally put it at the end of my post as a side point. Even if you didn’t make that mistake, you still used a dated build and false information in your argument, which you linked yourself to show how you didn’t know anything about what you were talking about. “Read the gw2 wiki before talking about other classes”- You are setting some impressive records yourself.

Will you stop with the real false information? Just stop talking like condi spam in this game requires any sort of thought….

This message comes from one Team APEX player…do you know Morphy?..I bet you don’t but here the message:

If you play against competent reapers, the amount of chill/vunerability they can put on you, while regenerating DS and insane damage, is defenitley the thing people are overlooking.

DH is simply the 100b warrior when gw2 first came out. People don’t know how to play against it and noobs died.

REAPER is beyond dumb.

And just this weekend I was forced to play several times against Car Crashes that guess what they were running… double reaper and after that I only met double reaper 12 times out of 20, other times there were at least one reaper in enemy team…these condi builds are so hard to play…that every team run 2 of them at the same time backed up by some condi hybrid build…sad

P.S don’t worry though..your time in the sun will come soon enough, don’t think that you will keep that chill damage for much longer, enjoy it while you can

(edited by Supreme.3164)

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Posted by: Quaman.9167

Quaman.9167

Celestial Elementalist traits water magic and equips Signet of Restoration. Sitting in water attunement and doing nothing (not even move or dodge) but auto-attacking, he keeps himself above 90% against a Carrion condition Necro (not Reaper) for a minimum of 8 seconds, possibly longer depending on the Necro’s life force.

It doesn’t even matter what weapon he has equipped.

That is the epitome of brainless and lack of skill. As soon as he starts doing literally anything else, the Necro has a much harder time. And Carrion builds actually have Power.

I’ve said it before, I’ve said it again: the trait needs an overhaul. Keep the anti-condition theme, sure, but make it less of a “win/lose” switch. You either auto-win, or you wasted your grandmaster slot. There is no middle ground with this trait. It needs a redesign to be less extreme and overall more useful. We have the Resistance boon now, so why not use it?

You should at the very least….go read the gw2 wiki before talking about other classes, a little necro tried to make its argument based on me generally calling wells everything on necro….well marks work same as wells, so just got wrong name OH WOW but you…

Saying that ele sit in water to heal..just broke all records on this forum, all you say from now on will be invalidated till the end of time.

I didn’t make any of my argument (which you never had a response to) by pointing out you calling marks wells. I literally put it at the end of my post as a side point. Even if you didn’t make that mistake, you still used a dated build and false information in your argument, which you linked yourself to show how you didn’t know anything about what you were talking about. “Read the gw2 wiki before talking about other classes”- You are setting some impressive records yourself.

Will you stop with the real false information? Just stop talking like condi spam in this game requires any sort of thought….

This message comes from one Team APEX player…do you know Morphy?..I bet you don’t but here the message:

If you play against competent reapers, the amount of chill/vunerability they can put on you, while regenerating DS and insane damage, is defenitley the thing people are overlooking.

DH is simply the 100b warrior when gw2 first came out. People don’t know how to play against it and noobs died.

REAPER is beyond dumb.

And just this weekend I was forced to play several times against Car Crashes that guess what they were running… double reaper and after that I only met double reaper 12 times out of 20, other times there were at least one reaper in enemy team…these condi builds are so hard to play…that every team run 2 of them at the same time backed up by some condi hybrid build…sad

P.S don’t worry though..your time in the sun will come soon enough, don’t think that you will keep that chill damage for much longer, enjoy it while you can

The real false information? You tried to argue in one of your last posts that most condi builds apply 4-5 conditions with their auto, you are using dated builds to describe how a class plays now, and you are using your own experience in seeing multiple reapers to argue that they are op. I could just as easily argue that my experience of seeing Zero Counterplay running 2 rev’s or You Back in Time running 2 tempests in last weeks Go4 cup makes them broken. None of them are like D/D ele last meta where nearly every team ran 2.

You talk about facing a team like car crashed and how they use 2 reapers, and yet so far ,from what I’ve seen in the pro league qualifiers, no team runs more than 1. I missed the first series, which car crashed played in, but they got 2-0’d, so if they were running their 2 reapers, then it seems to be going poorly for them so far.

I don’t know where you got the idea that I was arguing about condi builds taking skill, once again gw2 really isn’t a hard game to play. I was merely saying that power builds are just as cheesy, and way more common (6 out of 9 classes meta builds are power or hybrid that favors power), which you seem to agree with considering you never had a response to any of the examples I gave of “spam” power builds.

P.S I don’t expect chill to stay the same, Anet should really put it back to what it was when the expansion came out, it is a bit overtuned, but not broken. Like every elite spec aside from Dare Devil and Berserker, reaper needs slight nerfs. Though I must say, it is nice to finally have a class that functions properly. Aside from those few weeks after dhuumfire came out, up until June, there was really only one competitive necro player (Nos) , and even after that, up until HoT, it was only picked in a few games for the 5th spot on other pvp teams. The funny thing is that it wasn’t even a condi build, It was the hybrid cele signet build that was 80% power damage.

Its clear that we don’t agree with each other, and this thread has gotten so off topic that it may as well be closed.

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Posted by: Nova Stiker.8396

Nova Stiker.8396

the only way to kill someone as a reaper is with condis this meta.. when i go power all i see is nothing because they just kite for days or

block immune evade block immune evade block immune evade block immune evade block immune evade block immune evade block immune evade block immune evade.

need something to tick past all this junk!. did you know mesmer’s can be immune for 20s while dealing damage?

I wouldn’t be taking Diamond skin if it wasn’t for Reapers. Chill just destroys Elementalists hard and now there is an elite spec that applies perma chill.

Diamond Skin is a hard counter to the hard counter.

If it wasn’t for Diamond Skin, Reapers would have taken Elementalists completely out of the meta.

(edited by Nova Stiker.8396)

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Posted by: Cogbyrn.7283

Cogbyrn.7283

the only way to kill someone as a reaper is with condis this meta.. when i go power all i see is nothing because they just kite for days or

block immune evade block immune evade block immune evade block immune evade block immune evade block immune evade block immune evade block immune evade.

need something to tick past all this junk!. did you know mesmer’s can be immune for 20s while dealing damage?

I wouldn’t be taking Diamond skin if it wasn’t for Reapers. Chill just destroys Elementalists hard and now there is an elite spec that applies perma chill.

Diamond Skin is a hard counter to the hard counter.

If it wasn’t for Diamond Skin, Reapers would have taken Elementalists completely out of the meta.

What ever happened to team cleansing that seemed to basically keep condi Necros out of the meta entirely for a long time?

Alduin Nightsong, 80 Human Necro
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”

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Posted by: Nova Stiker.8396

Nova Stiker.8396

the only way to kill someone as a reaper is with condis this meta.. when i go power all i see is nothing because they just kite for days or

block immune evade block immune evade block immune evade block immune evade block immune evade block immune evade block immune evade block immune evade.

need something to tick past all this junk!. did you know mesmer’s can be immune for 20s while dealing damage?

I wouldn’t be taking Diamond skin if it wasn’t for Reapers. Chill just destroys Elementalists hard and now there is an elite spec that applies perma chill.

Diamond Skin is a hard counter to the hard counter.

If it wasn’t for Diamond Skin, Reapers would have taken Elementalists completely out of the meta.

What ever happened to team cleansing that seemed to basically keep condi Necros out of the meta entirely for a long time?

It was called shoutbow.

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Posted by: Cogbyrn.7283

Cogbyrn.7283

the only way to kill someone as a reaper is with condis this meta.. when i go power all i see is nothing because they just kite for days or

block immune evade block immune evade block immune evade block immune evade block immune evade block immune evade block immune evade block immune evade.

need something to tick past all this junk!. did you know mesmer’s can be immune for 20s while dealing damage?

I wouldn’t be taking Diamond skin if it wasn’t for Reapers. Chill just destroys Elementalists hard and now there is an elite spec that applies perma chill.

Diamond Skin is a hard counter to the hard counter.

If it wasn’t for Diamond Skin, Reapers would have taken Elementalists completely out of the meta.

What ever happened to team cleansing that seemed to basically keep condi Necros out of the meta entirely for a long time?

It was called shoutbow.

So a shout-based Warrior was carrying the team-fight condi cleansing? But now a shout-based Warrior can’t adequately fill that role?

It sounds like you’re building your comp with a vulnerability to that sort of condi pressure, so now there’s a place for that sort of condi pressure. Does that make it imbalanced?

EDIT – Do people think their class/team should have no vulnerabilities? Is that what the game has conditioned players to think?

Alduin Nightsong, 80 Human Necro
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”

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Posted by: No Pulse.2967

No Pulse.2967

the only way to kill someone as a reaper is with condis this meta.. when i go power all i see is nothing because they just kite for days or

block immune evade block immune evade block immune evade block immune evade block immune evade block immune evade block immune evade block immune evade.

need something to tick past all this junk!. did you know mesmer’s can be immune for 20s while dealing damage?

I wouldn’t be taking Diamond skin if it wasn’t for Reapers. Chill just destroys Elementalists hard and now there is an elite spec that applies perma chill.

Diamond Skin is a hard counter to the hard counter.

If it wasn’t for Diamond Skin, Reapers would have taken Elementalists completely out of the meta.

What ever happened to team cleansing that seemed to basically keep condi Necros out of the meta entirely for a long time?

It was called shoutbow.

So a shout-based Warrior was carrying the team-fight condi cleansing? But now a shout-based Warrior can’t adequately fill that role?

It sounds like you’re building your comp with a vulnerability to that sort of condi pressure, so now there’s a place for that sort of condi pressure. Does that make it imbalanced?

EDIT – Do people think their class/team should have no vulnerabilities? Is that what the game has conditioned players to think?

Shout-based warriors have no place in the current meta.

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Posted by: Nova Stiker.8396

Nova Stiker.8396

the only way to kill someone as a reaper is with condis this meta.. when i go power all i see is nothing because they just kite for days or

block immune evade block immune evade block immune evade block immune evade block immune evade block immune evade block immune evade block immune evade.

need something to tick past all this junk!. did you know mesmer’s can be immune for 20s while dealing damage?

I wouldn’t be taking Diamond skin if it wasn’t for Reapers. Chill just destroys Elementalists hard and now there is an elite spec that applies perma chill.

Diamond Skin is a hard counter to the hard counter.

If it wasn’t for Diamond Skin, Reapers would have taken Elementalists completely out of the meta.

What ever happened to team cleansing that seemed to basically keep condi Necros out of the meta entirely for a long time?

It was called shoutbow.

So a shout-based Warrior was carrying the team-fight condi cleansing? But now a shout-based Warrior can’t adequately fill that role?

It sounds like you’re building your comp with a vulnerability to that sort of condi pressure, so now there’s a place for that sort of condi pressure. Does that make it imbalanced?

EDIT – Do people think their class/team should have no vulnerabilities? Is that what the game has conditioned players to think?

Before the traits changed, shoutbows completely nulled pure condition based builds. That was the build that made condition necros disappear completely for so long.

Also, building a comp? What are you talking about?

Lastly, it’s not about vulnerabilities, it’s about counters. Diamond Skin does not make Reapers vulnerable.

Right now the elite specs simply do to much, this is why the meta is in one giant mess. A mess of AoE CC, a mess of CC spam, a mess of snares and condition spam, a mess of splash damage. It needs to tone down, skills need to stop doing so much, traits need to be toned back.

This isn’t the worst meta, but it’s by far the messiest.

(edited by Nova Stiker.8396)

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Posted by: nearlight.3064

nearlight.3064

the only way to kill someone as a reaper is with condis this meta.. when i go power all i see is nothing because they just kite for days or

block immune evade block immune evade block immune evade block immune evade block immune evade block immune evade block immune evade block immune evade.

need something to tick past all this junk!. did you know mesmer’s can be immune for 20s while dealing damage?

I wouldn’t be taking Diamond skin if it wasn’t for Reapers. Chill just destroys Elementalists hard and now there is an elite spec that applies perma chill.

Diamond Skin is a hard counter to the hard counter.

If it wasn’t for Diamond Skin, Reapers would have taken Elementalists completely out of the meta.

What ever happened to team cleansing that seemed to basically keep condi Necros out of the meta entirely for a long time?

Well I’ve posted a lot about this many places, so I feel as though I can adequately discuss the nuances of this meta shift.

Firstly, many new elite specs don’t come with AoE cleansing in their skills/traits in a high amount, and many base class pvp builds have to give up some component of their AoE condition cleansing to become that elite spec (such as giving up arcane/cleansing water to take tempest). Things like tempest generally don’t pack as nearly as much AoE cleanse as they did as a base ele unless they kitten their stats and utility with soldier runes over something like durability or radiance. Druid has poor ally cleanse with only verdant etching seeds, scrapper usually only brings heal turret and maybe some minor help with e-gun and elixir tosses. The new support builds have shifted more towards massive AoE healing and (tempest/druid) and boon spam (tempest/rev)

Secondly, many of the base class builds that were famous teamfight supports for many pvp teams can’t handle the power creep anymore. Bunker guardian’s health is too low to rez people without minstrels, so their shoutbuilds are dead, and the revamped settler’s shoutbow build can be bursted down way too quickly by revenants and dragonhunters. Cele D/D ele fire/water/arcane can’t handle dragonhunter as well as tempest can. DPS chronomancer can’t afford to take inspiration, so thats why the bunker builds are becoming more popular (though helseth’s isn’t optimized for better ally cleanse).

Thirdly, lots of new powerful builds are very weak to conditions, especially revenant, druid, scrapper, and tempest once diamond skin is broken. This has allowed condi builds, primarily reaper, and less so with condi rev, the ability to cement a firm seat in the current meta, since they have enough spammable condi pressure to actually kill the new cele bruiser/healer builds, because none of them have the invinceable network of massive passive AoE condi cleanse to protect them anymore for the reasons I just discussed.

So in conclusion, Diamond Skin is balanced (though a QoL rework could be interesting) because without it tempest would be instantly deleted by reapers. Viper condi revs can break it no problem, and it breaks pretty easily in a teamfight.

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Posted by: ReaperJr.5967

ReaperJr.5967

This again? If you’re running a pure condition build you deserve to get countered by ds eles. Enough said.

And who the kitten comes up with the idea that condition builds shouldn’t be nullified by diamond skin? Why not? Because your mindlessly easy yet rewarding condition aids build doesn’t work on someone for once? Gtfo.

Diamond skin only works in a 1v1 anyway. Any other scenario, it’s break the 10% with your team mates, unload conditions, proceed to watch the ele die helplessly. Smh, some people just can’t l2p.

If anything, diamond skin should be buffed.

/thread

Okay to reply to everyone who disagrees, i shall just quote my own post and tell you why your argument does not hold.

1. First off, power scaling is offset by armor. If you have high power, and your opponent has high armor, you then deal less damage than you would against an opponent with low armor. On the other hand, condition damage has no such ‘counter-stat’. You could be a tank or a dps, my condition damage ticks for a ton regardless. Also, to truly get high damage from power builds, you will also need precision and ferocity.

Contrary to power builds, condi builds only needs condi damage. Basically, power builds need 3 stats to work, while condi only needs 1. Which also means they can get whatever other stats they want without compromising their damage. And this usually comes in the form of defensive stats, which leads me to my next point

2. Pure condi builds are usually defined as those without the power stat. If you have power stat, it means you’re a hybrid. And for that same reason, you cannot call a carrion reaper a power build. So arguing that your carrion reaper was not able to break the diamond skin of a tempest because he was power is, frankly speaking, a joke. Also, you mentioned the tempest ran water. So it was a earth/water/tempest. Which also means it was a bunker tempest. And what are bunkers supposed to do? They are supposed to be able to take focus fire. The tradeoff? He has practically non-existent damage. Why would you even try to break a BUNKER tempest’s diamond skin ALONE with a HYBRID build and then complain you cannot do it? Of course not.

3. In link with my first point, condition builds have no ‘counter’ except diamond skin. And no, cleanse is not a counter. Well, not unless you consider healing a counter to power builds. Moreover, cleanse is not readily available to everyone. And frankly speaking, condition builds can dish out more condi than most builds can cleanse. Resistance is an invalid argumemt for the same reason why endure pain and signet of stone are not complained about.

Last but not least, condi has never been a problem for me on my main (ele) so im not ‘salty’. It just that ive played them (settlers mesmer anyone?) and they are so brainlessly rewarding while being easy to play (sounds a lot like DH atm), there really is no reason to complain. Only reason why you would is because your conditions dont work on someone 1v1 for once and you are no longer able to get carried by your build hence you cry on forums about it.

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Posted by: Saiyan.1704

Saiyan.1704

This again? If you’re running a pure condition build you deserve to get countered by ds eles. Enough said.

And who the kitten comes up with the idea that condition builds shouldn’t be nullified by diamond skin? Why not? Because your mindlessly easy yet rewarding condition aids build doesn’t work on someone for once? Gtfo.

Diamond skin only works in a 1v1 anyway. Any other scenario, it’s break the 10% with your team mates, unload conditions, proceed to watch the ele die helplessly. Smh, some people just can’t l2p.

If anything, diamond skin should be buffed.

/thread

Okay to reply to everyone who disagrees, i shall just quote my own post and tell you why your argument does not hold.

1. First off, power scaling is offset by armor. If you have high power, and your opponent has high armor, you then deal less damage than you would against an opponent with low armor. On the other hand, condition damage has no such ‘counter-stat’. You could be a tank or a dps, my condition damage ticks for a ton regardless. Also, to truly get high damage from power builds, you will also need precision and ferocity.

Contrary to power builds, condi builds only needs condi damage. Basically, power builds need 3 stats to work, while condi only needs 1. Which also means they can get whatever other stats they want without compromising their damage. And this usually comes in the form of defensive stats, which leads me to my next point

2. Pure condi builds are usually defined as those without the power stat. If you have power stat, it means you’re a hybrid. And for that same reason, you cannot call a carrion reaper a power build. So arguing that your carrion reaper was not able to break the diamond skin of a tempest because he was power is, frankly speaking, a joke. Also, you mentioned the tempest ran water. So it was a earth/water/tempest. Which also means it was a bunker tempest. And what are bunkers supposed to do? They are supposed to be able to take focus fire. The tradeoff? He has practically non-existent damage. Why would you even try to break a BUNKER tempest’s diamond skin ALONE with a HYBRID build and then complain you cannot do it? Of course not.

3. In link with my first point, condition builds have no ‘counter’ except diamond skin. And no, cleanse is not a counter. Well, not unless you consider healing a counter to power builds. Moreover, cleanse is not readily available to everyone. And frankly speaking, condition builds can dish out more condi than most builds can cleanse. Resistance is an invalid argumemt for the same reason why endure pain and signet of stone are not complained about.

Last but not least, condi has never been a problem for me on my main (ele) so im not ‘salty’. It just that ive played them (settlers mesmer anyone?) and they are so brainlessly rewarding while being easy to play (sounds a lot like DH atm), there really is no reason to complain. Only reason why you would is because your conditions dont work on someone 1v1 for once and you are no longer able to get carried by your build hence you cry on forums about it.

I appreciate the mature civil comeback, something that most people lack on these forums. I’ll try to retort without sounding too repetitive in my previous comments about DS.


There has always been a unique tuggle-war between Condi and Power damages. One does damage over time and is instantly counterable with proper management of cleanses, either by the player, or the player’s team. The other does damage instantly but has certain items to prevent it like invuln skills, blocks, and a boon. For the sake of not derailing and going off topic, lets just say Condi and Power builds both can be considered cheese and both can potentially be viable depending on certain situations.

Almost every amulet in the game has Power associated with it -or- incredibly high precision. Then you have the sustain amulets that trades crit/power for Vita/Tough/Healing. My point is, raw damages like Power or Prec stats, is associated with almost every single amulet. It’s the baseline. What makes a Power build is having that extra dmg stat associated with either Power or Precision. To go further glass, you’ll trade sustain stats like Vita/Tough/Healing for Ferocity to make your instant procing white damages even more defined.

Condi needs several items to go along with it for it to be viable. These are listed below.


Like the Red, Green, and Blue color schemes that creates light on a TV screen, there are three main elements that defines GW2 build variances, Raw damages, Sustains and Conditions. Each core element has their own branches that define them.

  • Raw damage is made up of a combination of Precision, Ferocity and Power.
  • Conditions are defined by Condition Damage, Duration, and Condi applications, whether that be a mix of unique conditions or a high application of just one.
  • Sustains is a mix of *Toughness, Vita, Healing.

I’m not including Boons because that element is shared equally amongst all the elements with the exception of Elementalists, who receives a substantial amounts of damages and sustains from Boons alone.

Mix and match these elements anyway you see fit to create your build.

The type of build a person uses is defined by the mixture of these three main elements stated above. There isn’t a single trait in the game that absolutely counters an element entirely, except Diamond Skin. It doesn’t matter whether or not that element is “cheese”, or “unviable” or “viable” or "situation, or “unsituational”, or any other excuse that defines a person’s subjective opinion about that build element. The point is, there is no other trait that has the same performance DS has against Conditions. Even Stone Heart doesn’t completely hard counter Raw Damage builds, and the trait suppose to be a direct reflection of Diamond Skin.

The only thing that’s “fair” is what you stated, these bunker Elementalists deal no damage because they’re bunkers. However, there are Ele builds that DO deal large amounts of damages and can obliterate ANY condi build in the game. The viability and performance of these builds in TPvP was always irrelevent to the point.

It’s the very mechanic of Diamond Skin that shouldn’t exist.

That’s the argument here. This trait is far from being acceptable in GW2.

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(edited by Saiyan.1704)

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Posted by: xaiMera.3809

xaiMera.3809

It’s funny how Anet nerfed Automated Response (Condition duration is reduced by 100% when health is below 25%) for engi then introduced a similar trait for Ele’s but made it proc at 90% health lol.

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Posted by: Drarnor Kunoram.5180

Drarnor Kunoram.5180

It’s funny how Anet nerfed Automated Response (Condition duration is reduced by 100% when health is below 25%) for engi then introduced a similar trait for Ele’s but made it proc at 90% health lol.

Considering it was much harder for an Engie to sit between 0 and 25% health for prolonged periods (using your heal skill once would push you too high, for example) than it is for an Ele to sit between 90 and 100%? Yeah.

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Posted by: Nova Stiker.8396

Nova Stiker.8396

It’s funny how Anet nerfed Automated Response (Condition duration is reduced by 100% when health is below 25%) for engi then introduced a similar trait for Ele’s but made it proc at 90% health lol.

Considering it was much harder for an Engie to sit between 0 and 25% health for prolonged periods (using your heal skill once would push you too high, for example) than it is for an Ele to sit between 90 and 100%? Yeah.

To fall below 100%, you’d need to take ~1,500 damage on a cele ele.

On a ele Tempest, you have a stronger protection, perma regen plus vigor and a constant flow of auras that heal 1,000+ health.

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Posted by: ReaperJr.5967

ReaperJr.5967

It’s funny how Anet nerfed Automated Response (Condition duration is reduced by 100% when health is below 25%) for engi then introduced a similar trait for Ele’s but made it proc at 90% health lol.

Considering it was much harder for an Engie to sit between 0 and 25% health for prolonged periods (using your heal skill once would push you too high, for example) than it is for an Ele to sit between 90 and 100%? Yeah.

To fall below 100%, you’d need to take ~1,500 damage on a cele ele.

On a ele Tempest, you have a stronger protection, perma regen plus vigor and a constant flow of auras that heal 1,000+ health.

And no stability. Unless you take armor of earth. Which leads to only 2 auras on utility bar. And depending on your weapon set, 1 or 2 more auras. Not that hard to break ds.

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Posted by: Cogbyrn.7283

Cogbyrn.7283

the only way to kill someone as a reaper is with condis this meta.. when i go power all i see is nothing because they just kite for days or

block immune evade block immune evade block immune evade block immune evade block immune evade block immune evade block immune evade block immune evade.

need something to tick past all this junk!. did you know mesmer’s can be immune for 20s while dealing damage?

I wouldn’t be taking Diamond skin if it wasn’t for Reapers. Chill just destroys Elementalists hard and now there is an elite spec that applies perma chill.

Diamond Skin is a hard counter to the hard counter.

If it wasn’t for Diamond Skin, Reapers would have taken Elementalists completely out of the meta.

What ever happened to team cleansing that seemed to basically keep condi Necros out of the meta entirely for a long time?

Well I’ve posted a lot about this many places, so I feel as though I can adequately discuss the nuances of this meta shift.

Firstly, many new elite specs don’t come with AoE cleansing in their skills/traits in a high amount, and many base class pvp builds have to give up some component of their AoE condition cleansing to become that elite spec (such as giving up arcane/cleansing water to take tempest). Things like tempest generally don’t pack as nearly as much AoE cleanse as they did as a base ele unless they kitten their stats and utility with soldier runes over something like durability or radiance. Druid has poor ally cleanse with only verdant etching seeds, scrapper usually only brings heal turret and maybe some minor help with e-gun and elixir tosses. The new support builds have shifted more towards massive AoE healing and (tempest/druid) and boon spam (tempest/rev)

Secondly, many of the base class builds that were famous teamfight supports for many pvp teams can’t handle the power creep anymore. Bunker guardian’s health is too low to rez people without minstrels, so their shoutbuilds are dead, and the revamped settler’s shoutbow build can be bursted down way too quickly by revenants and dragonhunters. Cele D/D ele fire/water/arcane can’t handle dragonhunter as well as tempest can. DPS chronomancer can’t afford to take inspiration, so thats why the bunker builds are becoming more popular (though helseth’s isn’t optimized for better ally cleanse).

Thirdly, lots of new powerful builds are very weak to conditions, especially revenant, druid, scrapper, and tempest once diamond skin is broken. This has allowed condi builds, primarily reaper, and less so with condi rev, the ability to cement a firm seat in the current meta, since they have enough spammable condi pressure to actually kill the new cele bruiser/healer builds, because none of them have the invinceable network of massive passive AoE condi cleanse to protect them anymore for the reasons I just discussed.

So in conclusion, Diamond Skin is balanced (though a QoL rework could be interesting) because without it tempest would be instantly deleted by reapers. Viper condi revs can break it no problem, and it breaks pretty easily in a teamfight.

I appreciate the elaboration. I think it is interesting that the meta shifted in such a way that it opened the door for condition builds to pressure the new hotness. The aoe cleanse builds get killed by builds that get killed by condis, which have issues with the aoe cleanse builds. From a team play and team comp perspective, that sounds like the sort of cyclical balance that creates room for meaningful variations in comp. At least it is in that direction, tweaks aside.

It isn’t that i don’t want Eles to be able to counter condis, but it seems like it is a weird/bad trait no matter how you slice it. If teams can pop the ele below 90%, then it is a garbage trait. If a condi player isn’t built to out DPS the sustain in power damage, it is nigh invincible. I can’t help but think, even if it feels balanced because there are no options for Eles without it, they could just be given a better option that allows them some play between 90 and 0, without making it so other condi builds have no play between 100 and 90.

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Posted by: Crinn.7864

Crinn.7864

3. In link with my first point, condition builds have no ‘counter’ except diamond skin. And no, cleanse is not a counter. Well, not unless you consider healing a counter to power builds. Moreover, cleanse is not readily available to everyone. And frankly speaking, condition builds can dish out more condi than most builds can cleanse. Resistance is an invalid argumemt for the same reason why endure pain and signet of stone are not complained about.

1.) Healing is reactive mitigation, and as such is actually a more effective against condi than power. Why? Because (excluding burn guard) condis are build around maintaining pressure over time. Power builds are usually built around spiking/bursting. Healing by virtue of being reactive rather than proactive is less effective against spikes because it has far less time in which that healing can be brought to bear, however Healing is extremely effective against builds that focus on maintaining pressure. (i.e most condi builds)

2.) Cleanse is totally a counter to conditions. Cleansing a condi removes all of the damage the condi would have dealt. Which is huge considering that most condi builds can’t spam their main sources of condi stacks.

3.) Condis in addition to dealing with cleanses have to deal with everything power builds do. If a attack is evaded or blocked, the condis applied by said ability don’t get applied.

There is a reason Reaper is the only strong condi build right now, and that reason is that Chill stacks duration rather than intensity which means it’s far less penalized by cleansing than other condis are.

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Posted by: nearlight.3064

nearlight.3064

the only way to kill someone as a reaper is with condis this meta.. when i go power all i see is nothing because they just kite for days or

block immune evade block immune evade block immune evade block immune evade block immune evade block immune evade block immune evade block immune evade.

need something to tick past all this junk!. did you know mesmer’s can be immune for 20s while dealing damage?

I wouldn’t be taking Diamond skin if it wasn’t for Reapers. Chill just destroys Elementalists hard and now there is an elite spec that applies perma chill.

Diamond Skin is a hard counter to the hard counter.

If it wasn’t for Diamond Skin, Reapers would have taken Elementalists completely out of the meta.

What ever happened to team cleansing that seemed to basically keep condi Necros out of the meta entirely for a long time?

Well I’ve posted a lot about this many places, so I feel as though I can adequately discuss the nuances of this meta shift.

Firstly, many new elite specs don’t come with AoE cleansing in their skills/traits in a high amount, and many base class pvp builds have to give up some component of their AoE condition cleansing to become that elite spec (such as giving up arcane/cleansing water to take tempest). Things like tempest generally don’t pack as nearly as much AoE cleanse as they did as a base ele unless they kitten their stats and utility with soldier runes over something like durability or radiance. Druid has poor ally cleanse with only verdant etching seeds, scrapper usually only brings heal turret and maybe some minor help with e-gun and elixir tosses. The new support builds have shifted more towards massive AoE healing and (tempest/druid) and boon spam (tempest/rev)

Secondly, many of the base class builds that were famous teamfight supports for many pvp teams can’t handle the power creep anymore. Bunker guardian’s health is too low to rez people without minstrels, so their shoutbuilds are dead, and the revamped settler’s shoutbow build can be bursted down way too quickly by revenants and dragonhunters. Cele D/D ele fire/water/arcane can’t handle dragonhunter as well as tempest can. DPS chronomancer can’t afford to take inspiration, so thats why the bunker builds are becoming more popular (though helseth’s isn’t optimized for better ally cleanse).

Thirdly, lots of new powerful builds are very weak to conditions, especially revenant, druid, scrapper, and tempest once diamond skin is broken. This has allowed condi builds, primarily reaper, and less so with condi rev, the ability to cement a firm seat in the current meta, since they have enough spammable condi pressure to actually kill the new cele bruiser/healer builds, because none of them have the invinceable network of massive passive AoE condi cleanse to protect them anymore for the reasons I just discussed.

So in conclusion, Diamond Skin is balanced (though a QoL rework could be interesting) because without it tempest would be instantly deleted by reapers. Viper condi revs can break it no problem, and it breaks pretty easily in a teamfight.

I appreciate the elaboration. I think it is interesting that the meta shifted in such a way that it opened the door for condition builds to pressure the new hotness. The aoe cleanse builds get killed by builds that get killed by condis, which have issues with the aoe cleanse builds. From a team play and team comp perspective, that sounds like the sort of cyclical balance that creates room for meaningful variations in comp. At least it is in that direction, tweaks aside.

It isn’t that i don’t want Eles to be able to counter condis, but it seems like it is a weird/bad trait no matter how you slice it. If teams can pop the ele below 90%, then it is a garbage trait. If a condi player isn’t built to out DPS the sustain in power damage, it is nigh invincible. I can’t help but think, even if it feels balanced because there are no options for Eles without it, they could just be given a better option that allows them some play between 90 and 0, without making it so other condi builds have no play between 100 and 90.

Oh believe me I’d love a different diamond skin. It’s been discussed for a long time hit nothing has happened. I don’t like how bipolar it’s usefulness is. But right now tempest pretty much needs it to function. You could also trait torrents and cleansing water for a bit of AoE cleanse as a tempest, but it’s not aurashare per se, so the support is weaker elsewhere because applying things like shocking aura/protection to teammates are so strong.

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Posted by: Supreme.3164

Supreme.3164

As somebody said before in this thread : diamond skin is a hard counter to hard counter

The real problem is not even the condi spam which is manageable with enough practice, the issue is chill which affect the ele main profession mechanic attunement swap

The entire class is designed around attunement dancing even if this is less prevalent with tempest, ofc I understand the design point of view of having something affecting ele in particular, something like chill that completely shut down the whole profession; this was fine pre-HoT because it was not possible to maintain perma chill in any way.

But now you have an entire elite spec based around perma chill, this is the main reason why eles run diamond skin, it’s not because of the condi spam really but because of this devastating condition that can now be spammed with impunity; this is a hard counter at 100%

Now that reaper exist they should remove this fallacy of chill affecting attunement recharge, after that …trust me no ele would cry if you’d remove diamond skin the day after

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Posted by: Saiyan.1704

Saiyan.1704

As somebody said before in this thread : diamond skin is a hard counter to hard counter

The real problem is not even the condi spam which is manageable with enough practice, the issue is chill which affect the ele main profession mechanic attunement swap

The entire class is designed around attunement dancing even if this is less prevalent with tempest, ofc I understand the design point of view of having something affecting ele in particular, something like chill that completely shut down the whole profession; this was fine pre-HoT because it was not possible to maintain perma chill in any way.

But now you have an entire elite spec based around perma chill, this is the main reason why eles run diamond skin, it’s not because of the condi spam really but because of this devastating condition that can now be spammed with impunity; this is a hard counter at 100%

Now that reaper exist they should remove this fallacy of chill affecting attunement recharge, after that …trust me no ele would cry if you’d remove diamond skin the day after

The one class you’re talking about never needed the use of chill to kill elementalists to begin with. It’s a new minor tool out of several main ones they already had.

Just because you have 1 class that have little issues with Ele doesn’t mean things are fine. The Ele received a might nerf prepatch when this class already soft counter him. The Ele received a RoF change when this one class already soft countered him.

I’m hoping a similiar change will happen for diamond skin when this class continues to soft counter him. Have the Ele keep their usual sustains, just change the mechanic of DS.

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Posted by: ReaperJr.5967

ReaperJr.5967

As somebody said before in this thread : diamond skin is a hard counter to hard counter

The real problem is not even the condi spam which is manageable with enough practice, the issue is chill which affect the ele main profession mechanic attunement swap

The entire class is designed around attunement dancing even if this is less prevalent with tempest, ofc I understand the design point of view of having something affecting ele in particular, something like chill that completely shut down the whole profession; this was fine pre-HoT because it was not possible to maintain perma chill in any way.

But now you have an entire elite spec based around perma chill, this is the main reason why eles run diamond skin, it’s not because of the condi spam really but because of this devastating condition that can now be spammed with impunity; this is a hard counter at 100%

Now that reaper exist they should remove this fallacy of chill affecting attunement recharge, after that …trust me no ele would cry if you’d remove diamond skin the day after

The one class you’re talking about never needed the use of chill to kill elementalists to begin with. It’s a new minor tool out of several main ones they already had.

Just because you have 1 class that have little issues with Ele doesn’t mean things are fine. The Ele received a might nerf prepatch when this class already soft counter him. The Ele received a RoF change when this one class already soft countered him.

I’m hoping a similiar change will happen for diamond skin when this class continues to soft counter him. Have the Ele keep their usual sustains, just change the mechanic of DS.

False my boy, ily but you gotta listen to yourself man. You’re beginning to sound more and more ridiculous now.

Reapers no longer soft counter non-ds eles. They hard counter them. No amount of cleanse is gonna save us from 100% chill uptime.

The thought that cele necro pre hot countered cele ele was a myth. At least, the meta build couldnt do it. A necro would have to spec full boon convert to counter ele, which would make them vulnerable to other classes in pvp. Also the reason why nobody did it.

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Posted by: Krysard.1364

Krysard.1364

The thought that cele necro pre hot countered cele ele was a myth. At least, the meta build couldnt do it. A necro would have to spec full boon convert to counter ele, which would make them vulnerable to other classes in pvp. Also the reason why nobody did it.

Necro has usually countered ele. With last meta, cele necro didnt countered cele ele due to the fact that cele ele was broken, but necro had the tools to counter him. In fact, it was one of the few builds that could engage a 1v1 against an ele and potentially win

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Posted by: ReaperJr.5967

ReaperJr.5967

The thought that cele necro pre hot countered cele ele was a myth. At least, the meta build couldnt do it. A necro would have to spec full boon convert to counter ele, which would make them vulnerable to other classes in pvp. Also the reason why nobody did it.

Necro has usually countered ele. With last meta, cele necro didnt countered cele ele due to the fact that cele ele was broken, but necro had the tools to counter him. In fact, it was one of the few builds that could engage a 1v1 against an ele and potentially win

I was speaking about post nerf and pre-hot. Eles were fine then. In all my games as an ele, and all the duels i have fought, i haven’t met a single necro who stood a chance against meta d/d ele with the metabattle cele signet build.

Perhaps you would care to enlighten me if you play a necro? Otherwise, im surprised at how you arrived at that conclusion.

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Posted by: Crinn.7864

Crinn.7864

As somebody said before in this thread : diamond skin is a hard counter to hard counter

The real problem is not even the condi spam which is manageable with enough practice, the issue is chill which affect the ele main profession mechanic attunement swap

The entire class is designed around attunement dancing even if this is less prevalent with tempest, ofc I understand the design point of view of having something affecting ele in particular, something like chill that completely shut down the whole profession; this was fine pre-HoT because it was not possible to maintain perma chill in any way.

But now you have an entire elite spec based around perma chill, this is the main reason why eles run diamond skin, it’s not because of the condi spam really but because of this devastating condition that can now be spammed with impunity; this is a hard counter at 100%

Now that reaper exist they should remove this fallacy of chill affecting attunement recharge, after that …trust me no ele would cry if you’d remove diamond skin the day after

Then give them a trait that specifically reduces the effectiveness of chill. Unilaterally making eles a hardcounter to all condi builds just because of the existence of reaper is absurd.

Besides “hardcounter to the hardcounter” is absurd logic. All that does is change the class that is getting screwed over.

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Posted by: Krysard.1364

Krysard.1364

The thought that cele necro pre hot countered cele ele was a myth. At least, the meta build couldnt do it. A necro would have to spec full boon convert to counter ele, which would make them vulnerable to other classes in pvp. Also the reason why nobody did it.

Necro has usually countered ele. With last meta, cele necro didnt countered cele ele due to the fact that cele ele was broken, but necro had the tools to counter him. In fact, it was one of the few builds that could engage a 1v1 against an ele and potentially win

I was speaking about post nerf and pre-hot. Eles were fine then. In all my games as an ele, and all the duels i have fought, i haven’t met a single necro who stood a chance against meta d/d ele with the metabattle cele signet build.

Perhaps you would care to enlighten me if you play a necro? Otherwise, im surprised at how you arrived at that conclusion.

Im not sure what I have to explain. Eles wrecked necros pre-HoT cause they were broken, but necros had a bunch of utilites that countered the ele build, which makes them better for a 1v1 that, lets say, a thief. Also, and thats not only my own experience but also top pvp streamers talking about it, cele necro could win cele ele if they played smartly

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Posted by: Cogbyrn.7283

Cogbyrn.7283

As somebody said before in this thread : diamond skin is a hard counter to hard counter

The real problem is not even the condi spam which is manageable with enough practice, the issue is chill which affect the ele main profession mechanic attunement swap

The entire class is designed around attunement dancing even if this is less prevalent with tempest, ofc I understand the design point of view of having something affecting ele in particular, something like chill that completely shut down the whole profession; this was fine pre-HoT because it was not possible to maintain perma chill in any way.

But now you have an entire elite spec based around perma chill, this is the main reason why eles run diamond skin, it’s not because of the condi spam really but because of this devastating condition that can now be spammed with impunity; this is a hard counter at 100%

Now that reaper exist they should remove this fallacy of chill affecting attunement recharge, after that …trust me no ele would cry if you’d remove diamond skin the day after

Then give them a trait that specifically reduces the effectiveness of chill. Unilaterally making eles a hardcounter to all condi builds just because of the existence of reaper is absurd.

Besides “hardcounter to the hardcounter” is absurd logic. All that does is change the class that is getting screwed over.

You mean a trait like https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stop,_Drop,_and_Roll? Or maybe you mean https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Geomancer%27s_Training?

Here’s where I start to have problems: classes often have tools to deal with things, but they “can’t take them” because it would make whatever else they want to do weaker. They leave themselves open to a particular weakness, then complain about the weakness like they shouldn’t have it, or that what exploits their weakness should be nerfed.

Sure, Chilled sounds like an awful condition for Ele to deal with. But if it’s that awful, and if Chill Necros are running rampant, why are accommodations not being made to help shore up that weakness? Because you have to run a meta build to be in the meta? That just feels like a self-fulfilling prophecy to me.

And on that note, is Diamond Skin really proving sufficient to help counter this weakness? I don’t necessarily think it is a bad thing for teamplay to be a factor in balance, so if it’s a matter of Condi Necros needing team support to tackle Eles, maybe that’s fine. Alternatively, perhaps if a Condi Necro sees an Ele on the other team, they have to switch to Viper Amulet to help burn through that 10%, leaving themselves vulnerable with less survivability. That could be fine too.

It’s very possible that Condi Necros just need to adapt to Diamond Skin and deal with it. I just think Diamond Skin could be designed better (to the Ele’s benefit, even), and even though I play a Power Necro, I tend to side with condis in the perpetual “I hate condis” discussions. People often don’t want to go to any trouble at all to counter condis, so if they are ever strong, there’s an uproar to nerf them until they disappear.

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Posted by: Melanion.4892

Melanion.4892

Does nobody see the necessity of counters like this?

If you don’t have a class or two that can completely nullify a full condi build, condis will run rampant.

There are counters to pretty much anything in the game except for tanky/sustain cele builds, and even the tanky/sustain builds can be bursted if caught out. The inclusion of these hard counters is how anet keeps certain builds from running rampant and unchecked. If you didn’t have stealth high damage classes, other classes can run much glassier and without as much in the way of damage mitigation.

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Posted by: Crinn.7864

Crinn.7864

Does nobody see the necessity of counters like this?

If you don’t have a class or two that can completely nullify a full condi build, condis will run rampant.

There are counters to pretty much anything in the game except for tanky/sustain cele builds, and even the tanky/sustain builds can be bursted if caught out. The inclusion of these hard counters is how anet keeps certain builds from running rampant and unchecked. If you didn’t have stealth high damage classes, other classes can run much glassier and without as much in the way of damage mitigation.

You don’t need hardcounters when the game is choked full of softcounters.

Every class in the game has access to condi cleanses, and that’s not even counting cleanses/transfers from sigils and runes. On top of that there is the resistance boon, in addition to things like plague signet and necro staff #4. Additionally there are a number of traits and runes that straight up reduce the duration or damage of condis. Oh and lets not forget the occasional cleanses from combo fields.

And if after all that you still somehow have issues with condis, you can always bring a bunker guard with the double AoE cleanse on each shout + triple cleanse on F2.

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Posted by: nearlight.3064

nearlight.3064

Does nobody see the necessity of counters like this?

If you don’t have a class or two that can completely nullify a full condi build, condis will run rampant.

There are counters to pretty much anything in the game except for tanky/sustain cele builds, and even the tanky/sustain builds can be bursted if caught out. The inclusion of these hard counters is how anet keeps certain builds from running rampant and unchecked. If you didn’t have stealth high damage classes, other classes can run much glassier and without as much in the way of damage mitigation.

You don’t need hardcounters when the game is choked full of softcounters.

Every class in the game has access to condi cleanses, and that’s not even counting cleanses/transfers from sigils and runes. On top of that there is the resistance boon, in addition to things like plague signet and necro staff #4. Additionally there are a number of traits and runes that straight up reduce the duration or damage of condis. Oh and lets not forget the occasional cleanses from combo fields.

And if after all that you still somehow have issues with condis, you can always bring a bunker guard with the double AoE cleanse on each shout + triple cleanse on F2.

No one runs bunker guard anymore, since while it can be a cleansebot, thats all it can do anymore. It doesn’t have the tools needed to get rezzes and stomps in this AoE CC cleave spam meta since its health is too low with cleric.

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Posted by: Crinn.7864

Crinn.7864

Does nobody see the necessity of counters like this?

If you don’t have a class or two that can completely nullify a full condi build, condis will run rampant.

There are counters to pretty much anything in the game except for tanky/sustain cele builds, and even the tanky/sustain builds can be bursted if caught out. The inclusion of these hard counters is how anet keeps certain builds from running rampant and unchecked. If you didn’t have stealth high damage classes, other classes can run much glassier and without as much in the way of damage mitigation.

You don’t need hardcounters when the game is choked full of softcounters.

Every class in the game has access to condi cleanses, and that’s not even counting cleanses/transfers from sigils and runes. On top of that there is the resistance boon, in addition to things like plague signet and necro staff #4. Additionally there are a number of traits and runes that straight up reduce the duration or damage of condis. Oh and lets not forget the occasional cleanses from combo fields.

And if after all that you still somehow have issues with condis, you can always bring a bunker guard with the double AoE cleanse on each shout + triple cleanse on F2.

No one runs bunker guard anymore, since while it can be a cleansebot, thats all it can do anymore. It doesn’t have the tools needed to get rezzes and stomps in this AoE CC cleave spam meta since its health is too low with cleric.

The point was that if the person I quoted was somehow still managing to have trouble with condis despite everything listed before I brought up bunk guard, then they should probably think about taking a cleanse bot.

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Posted by: Saiyan.1704

Saiyan.1704

Does nobody see the necessity of counters like this?

If you don’t have a class or two that can completely nullify a full condi build, condis will run rampant.

There are counters to pretty much anything in the game except for tanky/sustain cele builds, and even the tanky/sustain builds can be bursted if caught out. The inclusion of these hard counters is how anet keeps certain builds from running rampant and unchecked. If you didn’t have stealth high damage classes, other classes can run much glassier and without as much in the way of damage mitigation.

I’m perfectly fine with this game’s rock, paper, scissors aspects. But DS isn’t needed to keep conditions from running rampant. I doubt a full condi team could even down the current meta team compositions, of which, may or may not utilize an Ele to begin with. No condi build have the aoe damage potential while able to remain self-sustaining.

I’m not at all asking for a condi team to be viable, just asking for a mechanical change to a trait that has never made sense in the game to begin with.

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Posted by: Melanion.4892

Melanion.4892

Does nobody see the necessity of counters like this?

If you don’t have a class or two that can completely nullify a full condi build, condis will run rampant.

There are counters to pretty much anything in the game except for tanky/sustain cele builds, and even the tanky/sustain builds can be bursted if caught out. The inclusion of these hard counters is how anet keeps certain builds from running rampant and unchecked. If you didn’t have stealth high damage classes, other classes can run much glassier and without as much in the way of damage mitigation.

You don’t need hardcounters when the game is choked full of softcounters.

Every class in the game has access to condi cleanses, and that’s not even counting cleanses/transfers from sigils and runes. On top of that there is the resistance boon, in addition to things like plague signet and necro staff #4. Additionally there are a number of traits and runes that straight up reduce the duration or damage of condis. Oh and lets not forget the occasional cleanses from combo fields.

And if after all that you still somehow have issues with condis, you can always bring a bunker guard with the double AoE cleanse on each shout + triple cleanse on F2.

Sure, every class has access to condi cleanse, but does that make it something they’re taking? No. Chronomancer has access to one condi clear outside of sigils if they choose to bring the heal well. Otherwise I have to run inspiration or illusions and even then, the condi cleanse isn’t great. Dragonhunter has access to condi cleanse, but DH has 2-3 condi clears on somewhat long cooldowns when considering classes can stack 20 bleeding, 18 torment or 12 burning in a few seconds. on a fairly short cooldown (doesn’t account for dodges, but whatever). Engi has some, but not amazing condi clear with the current meta. Daredevil is the same (only removes condi on heal or on evade, so it’s not great, not terrible). Outside of celestial form, druid has few condi clears. Herald has very few clears.

My point is that most meta builds do not have access to an entirely large amount of condition cleanse or mitigation. Necro and Ele are perhaps best equipped for condi pressure and one of the reasons they are useful is because they can nullify a condition focused team. It forces you to bring at least some cele or power damage.

And no, I’m not saying conditions wreck every other class. If you can kill the condition class before they get enough conditions on you, you’re gucci. There are obviously counters outside of condition cleanse or transfer. Not the point here. I’m saying that a team must at least consider the possibility that one or two diamond skin eles are going to be on the opposing team and they’re going to have to deal with it. It’s about having things in your team that make the other team have to try a little bit harder. There are a number of ways this happens. In this case, and condi-reliant class must have help at least getting the ele below 90% before they’re able to do much. Simple as that. If you’re having issues fighting a diamond skin ele, don’t rely so much on conditions? I’ve found DS eles as a power build and it’s not that big of an issue. I’ve fought as a DS ele and it’s not like we’re invulnerable to anything, we’re just invulnerable to those who rely solely on conditions.

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Posted by: Crinn.7864

Crinn.7864

Sure, every class has access to condi cleanse, but does that make it something they’re taking? No.

And? If you ain’t going to spec into condi cleanse then you deserve to die to condis.

And you still haven’t covered the fact that condi builds are penalized by everything a power build is penalized by (blocked/evaded abilities don’t apply condi) in addition to being penalized by cleanses, transfers, and duration reduction traits. Not to mention condi builds typically having much longer ramp time than power builds.

Condi builds are underpowered in this meta, and will continue to be so with or without the existence of Diamond Skin.

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Posted by: Sunshine.5014

Sunshine.5014

Sure, every class has access to condi cleanse, but does that make it something they’re taking? No.

And? If you ain’t going to spec into condi cleanse then you deserve to die to condis.

This argument fails because it’s actually: “if you don’t heavily spec into full condi cleanse, you deserve to die to condis”.

Bringing 1, 2, or even 3 condi cleanse doesn’t make you any survive against the condi users. Have 3 cleanse? Great, so you can cleanse the amount of condi my Engi loads to you in 2 seconds? Yah, great, you prolong your life by 2s.

The reason why Ele could stand condi is because it has the most number of cleanse, and it had to fully spec into condi cleanse. So, to protect your condi spam, now you request everyone to heavily spec into condi cleansing just to have a remote chance to stay alive under your spam?

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Posted by: Cogbyrn.7283

Cogbyrn.7283

Sure, every class has access to condi cleanse, but does that make it something they’re taking? No.

And? If you ain’t going to spec into condi cleanse then you deserve to die to condis.

And you still haven’t covered the fact that condi builds are penalized by everything a power build is penalized by (blocked/evaded abilities don’t apply condi) in addition to being penalized by cleanses, transfers, and duration reduction traits. Not to mention condi builds typically having much longer ramp time than power builds.

Condi builds are underpowered in this meta, and will continue to be so with or without the existence of Diamond Skin.

I can’t help but wonder this as well. If you leave yourself open to be pressured by condis, then you die to condis, how is it the fault of the condis? If you die to being CC’d, people tell you to bring stunbreaks. If you die to burst, people tell you to dodge, or watch animations, etc. etc.

If you die to condis, people grab their pitchforks and take to the streets with you in opposition of condis. Nevermind that you can cleanse condis before they tick their full damage. Nevermind that an ally can cleanse condis for you. Nevermind that you can dodge primary condi stacks to mitigate the “burst” similarly. Nevermind that you can block/evade condi application. Nevermind that a boon exists that mitigates condis entirely for its duration, as opposed to just reducing their effect by 33% (for example).

The hate against condis often seems irrationally strong, and I honestly believe it really kills discussions around balance.

This argument fails because it’s actually: “if you don’t heavily spec into full condi cleanse, you deserve to die to condis”.

Bringing 1, 2, or even 3 condi cleanse doesn’t make you any survive against the condi users. Have 3 cleanse? Great, so you can cleanse the amount of condi my Engi loads to you in 2 seconds? Yah, great, you prolong your life by 2s.

The reason why Ele could stand condi is because it has the most number of cleanse, and it had to fully spec into condi cleanse. So, to protect your condi spam, now you request everyone to heavily spec into condi cleansing just to have a remote chance to stay alive under your spam?

If I heavily spec to counter power, I can survive for a long time against power. If I heavily spec to counter condis, I can survive a long time against condis. If I spec to sort of mitigate power, I have to be careful of when I use mitigation. If I spec to sort of cleanse condis, I have to be careful of when I use mitigation/cleansing.

Why should condis not be able to exploit weakness in dealing with condis?

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(edited by Cogbyrn.7283)

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Posted by: Sunshine.5014

Sunshine.5014

This argument fails because it’s actually: “if you don’t heavily spec into full condi cleanse, you deserve to die to condis”.

Bringing 1, 2, or even 3 condi cleanse doesn’t make you any survive against the condi users. Have 3 cleanse? Great, so you can cleanse the amount of condi my Engi loads to you in 2 seconds? Yah, great, you prolong your life by 2s.

The reason why Ele could stand condi is because it has the most number of cleanse, and it had to fully spec into condi cleanse. So, to protect your condi spam, now you request everyone to heavily spec into condi cleansing just to have a remote chance to stay alive under your spam?

If I heavily spec to counter power, I can survive for a long time against power. If I heavily spec to counter condis, I can survive a long time against condis. If I spec to sort of mitigate power, I have to be careful of when I use mitigation. If I spec to sort of cleanse condis, I have to be careful of when I use mitigation/cleansing.

Why should condis not be able to exploit weakness in dealing with condis?

Great, now with your own quote in bold. So an Ele heavily spec’ed to counter condi; it loses to power spec. Why do you guys complain then? Wanna take your cute quote back? Lol. Any competent player knows how useless DS is against power users. Play condi? Too bad, read your own quote and try to spin a flip flop.

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Posted by: Melanion.4892

Melanion.4892

Sure, every class has access to condi cleanse, but does that make it something they’re taking? No.

And? If you ain’t going to spec into condi cleanse then you deserve to die to condis.

And you still haven’t covered the fact that condi builds are penalized by everything a power build is penalized by (blocked/evaded abilities don’t apply condi) in addition to being penalized by cleanses, transfers, and duration reduction traits. Not to mention condi builds typically having much longer ramp time than power builds.

Condi builds are underpowered in this meta, and will continue to be so with or without the existence of Diamond Skin.

Condi classes have a higher ramp up, sure, but they also have a greater ability to kite. You could apply condis, kite around while the condis tick, then apply more (or apply more as you’re kiting). There are few (almost 0) condi classes that can apply damage while not actively attacking or even l.o.s.ing. With a power class, I could pressure you off a point and you’d have to leave to heal. With a condi class, I could be pressured off point but the damage still ticks. Not saying this is bad. It’s what you get when you go condi, but you can’t have it both ways. Condi takes longer to get the damage out, but the damage lasts longer once the condi is appplied.

I’d respond with a fuller argument, but it appears Sunshine’s beaten me to it.

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Posted by: Cogbyrn.7283

Cogbyrn.7283

This argument fails because it’s actually: “if you don’t heavily spec into full condi cleanse, you deserve to die to condis”.

Bringing 1, 2, or even 3 condi cleanse doesn’t make you any survive against the condi users. Have 3 cleanse? Great, so you can cleanse the amount of condi my Engi loads to you in 2 seconds? Yah, great, you prolong your life by 2s.

The reason why Ele could stand condi is because it has the most number of cleanse, and it had to fully spec into condi cleanse. So, to protect your condi spam, now you request everyone to heavily spec into condi cleansing just to have a remote chance to stay alive under your spam?

If I heavily spec to counter power, I can survive for a long time against power. If I heavily spec to counter condis, I can survive a long time against condis. If I spec to sort of mitigate power, I have to be careful of when I use mitigation. If I spec to sort of cleanse condis, I have to be careful of when I use mitigation/cleansing.

Why should condis not be able to exploit weakness in dealing with condis?

Great, now with your own quote in bold. So an Ele heavily spec’ed to counter condi; it loses to power spec. Why do you guys complain then? Wanna take your cute quote back? Lol. Any competent player knows how useless DS is against power users. Play condi? Too bad, read your own quote and try to spin a flip flop.

Have I said Diamond Skin is OP? Or have I said I think the design is garbage? I think Diamond Skin is designed terribly, and should be looked at. I don’t think it’s OP. If I ever said it was OP, then I was on a tear, and I was wrong.

Just because something isn’t OP doesn’t mean it’s well designed.

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Posted by: Sunshine.5014

Sunshine.5014

This argument fails because it’s actually: “if you don’t heavily spec into full condi cleanse, you deserve to die to condis”.

Bringing 1, 2, or even 3 condi cleanse doesn’t make you any survive against the condi users. Have 3 cleanse? Great, so you can cleanse the amount of condi my Engi loads to you in 2 seconds? Yah, great, you prolong your life by 2s.

The reason why Ele could stand condi is because it has the most number of cleanse, and it had to fully spec into condi cleanse. So, to protect your condi spam, now you request everyone to heavily spec into condi cleansing just to have a remote chance to stay alive under your spam?

If I heavily spec to counter power, I can survive for a long time against power. If I heavily spec to counter condis, I can survive a long time against condis. If I spec to sort of mitigate power, I have to be careful of when I use mitigation. If I spec to sort of cleanse condis, I have to be careful of when I use mitigation/cleansing.

Why should condis not be able to exploit weakness in dealing with condis?

Great, now with your own quote in bold. So an Ele heavily spec’ed to counter condi; it loses to power spec. Why do you guys complain then? Wanna take your cute quote back? Lol. Any competent player knows how useless DS is against power users. Play condi? Too bad, read your own quote and try to spin a flip flop.

Have I said Diamond Skin is OP? Or have I said I think the design is garbage? I think Diamond Skin is designed terribly, and should be looked at. I don’t think it’s OP. If I ever said it was OP, then I was on a tear, and I was wrong.

Just because something isn’t OP doesn’t mean it’s well designed.

Now we’re on the same page. I don’t think it’s OP, but it could be designed better. The same thing with Ele conjure weapons. The thing is, since it’s not OP, it’s not gonna get fixed any time soon. ANet is even slow on outright OP stuffs. #allisvain, let just drop the thread and discuss the Rev meta in the pro league.

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Posted by: Crinn.7864

Crinn.7864

Condi classes have a higher ramp up, sure, but they also have a greater ability to kite. You could apply condis, kite around while the condis tick, then apply more (or apply more as you’re kiting). There are few (almost 0) condi classes that can apply damage while not actively attacking or even l.o.s.ing. With a power class, I could pressure you off a point and you’d have to leave to heal. With a condi class, I could be pressured off point but the damage still ticks. Not saying this is bad. It’s what you get when you go condi, but you can’t have it both ways. Condi takes longer to get the damage out, but the damage lasts longer once the condi is appplied.

I’d respond with a fuller argument, but it appears Sunshine’s beaten me to it.

You literally identified the only reason a person would ever use condi in the first place. If it wasn’t for the fact that condi’s tick while you’re away you would never use condi in the first place, since it would basically be a power build with tons of a ramp time.

I simply cannot understand why you seem to think Condi are going to take over the meta if Diamond Skin goes away. There are more counterplay options to use against condi than there are to use against power. Add in the fact that condi usually takes much longer to kill a target in a gamemode that puts extreme emphasis on kill targets quickly and you ought to be able to see why Reaper is the only condi build that qualifies as viable.

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Posted by: Drarnor Kunoram.5180

Drarnor Kunoram.5180

As somebody said before in this thread : diamond skin is a hard counter to hard counter

The real problem is not even the condi spam which is manageable with enough practice, the issue is chill which affect the ele main profession mechanic attunement swap

The entire class is designed around attunement dancing even if this is less prevalent with tempest, ofc I understand the design point of view of having something affecting ele in particular, something like chill that completely shut down the whole profession; this was fine pre-HoT because it was not possible to maintain perma chill in any way.

FYI, Rangers and Necros could perma-chill since launch. Eles could too with a bit more effort.

But nobody did this because those builds were so focused on chill uptime that they did very little damage. Ranger, for example, has to use mainhand axe, which is pretty low damage (especially single target). Necros made less of a tradeoff, but suffered so badly from only having 3 utility slots (due to needing double-stunbreak) that Sectral Grasp couldn’t fit on in a viable build.

Reaper still makes tradeoffs, but less of them, since their Shroud provides pretty decent Chill application on its own (on 4/5 skills).

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Posted by: Loop.8106

Loop.8106

“Sure, every class has access to condi cleanse, but does that make it something they’re taking? No. Chronomancer has access to one condi clear outside of sigils if they choose to bring the heal well. "

This is such a stupid statement I couldnt restrain myself from replying. It’s like saying power based builds are op while you’re not dodging evading nor blocking. It’s ignorant and outright wrong.
Mesmer has been my main class for the majority of the game. They have long suffered against condi due to the lack of condi removes.
Although saying they have 1 condi remove if you’re running heal well is downright wrong.
Arcane Thievery.
Mantra of Resolve.
Nullfield.
Traited Torch.

Classes has to trade 1 thing in order to have another, ie; Mesmer trading sustained dmg in order to burst. Trading condi removes in order to have alot of uptime on evades, blocks and dodges. (high vigor uptime)
To come back to your original statement that people doesn’t take condi cleanses. That’s not even true.
Every single guardian build out there runs either contemplation of purity or smite condition. Sometimes even both.
Warriors has high uptime on resistance aswell as berserker stance.
Revs, yeah they kinda die to condis.
Engis has limited condi cleanses too but have alot of dis-engage.
Thieves has ALOT of condi removes with shadowsteps, also incredible dis-engage.
Rangers has had some issues vs condi heavy builds in the past but with druid on the rise, thats not an issue anymore.
Mesmers has also had issues, but I’ve covered that.
Necromancers are the kings of conditions but even they dont have alot of ways to clear outside consume condition and plague signet. (x2 if traited)
Elementalists. During the celestial meta eles and shoutbows were basicly unkillable in 1v1s. They had alot of condi clears aswell as incredible sustain.

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(edited by Loop.8106)

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Posted by: Ross Biddle.2367

Ross Biddle.2367

The community’s been over this before. Anet either doesnt care, or won’t fix its ever broken Eles.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/Diamon-Skin-a-condi-users-worst-enemy/first

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Posted by: ReaperJr.5967

ReaperJr.5967

The thought that cele necro pre hot countered cele ele was a myth. At least, the meta build couldnt do it. A necro would have to spec full boon convert to counter ele, which would make them vulnerable to other classes in pvp. Also the reason why nobody did it.

Necro has usually countered ele. With last meta, cele necro didnt countered cele ele due to the fact that cele ele was broken, but necro had the tools to counter him. In fact, it was one of the few builds that could engage a 1v1 against an ele and potentially win

I was speaking about post nerf and pre-hot. Eles were fine then. In all my games as an ele, and all the duels i have fought, i haven’t met a single necro who stood a chance against meta d/d ele with the metabattle cele signet build.

Perhaps you would care to enlighten me if you play a necro? Otherwise, im surprised at how you arrived at that conclusion.

Im not sure what I have to explain. Eles wrecked necros pre-HoT cause they were broken, but necros had a bunch of utilites that countered the ele build, which makes them better for a 1v1 that, lets say, a thief. Also, and thats not only my own experience but also top pvp streamers talking about it, cele necro could win cele ele if they played smartly

Yes, but like i said, they had to trait and build for it. Which would also mean they would counter ele but be vulnerable to everything else. The meta cele build then did not counter ele, and it’s not because eles were broken, but because it was a more well rounded build.

Which ‘top streamers’ were you referring to?

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Posted by: Supreme.3164

Supreme.3164

The rest of the world side

Sunshine.5014:
This argument fails because it’s actually: “if you don’t heavily spec into full condi cleanse, you deserve to die to condis”.
Bringing 1, 2, or even 3 condi cleanse doesn’t make you any survive against the condi users. Have 3 cleanse? Great, so you can cleanse the amount of condi my Engi loads to you in 2 seconds? Yah, great, you prolong your life by 2s.
The reason why Ele could stand condi is because it has the most number of cleanse, and it had to fully spec into condi cleanse. So, to protect your condi spam, now you request everyone to heavily spec into condi cleansing just to have a remote chance to stay alive under your spam?

The necro side

Cogbyrn.7283
If I heavily spec to counter power, I can survive for a long time against power. If I heavily spec to counter condis, I can survive a long time against condis. If I spec to sort of mitigate power, I have to be careful of when I use mitigation. If I spec to sort of cleanse condis, I have to be careful of when I use mitigation/cleansing.
Why should condis not be able to exploit weakness in dealing with condis?

The “why you hate condis?” quote

The hate against condis often seems irrationally strong, and I honestly believe it really kills discussions around balance.

Why this thread still going? I should be obvious by now why condis are hated, how it is even possible to compare power builds to condi build in terms of risk/reward ratio?

Without descending in further discussion about skills, traits and all…here and now I will write down the main differences between power builds and condition builds , this should make it very easy to understand why condi builds are despised and frowned upon.

1)
Is there a single baseline stat that increase your defenses against power build?
-Yes, we have toughness

Is there one against condi builds?
-No, there isn’t

2)
Is there an easy to access boon [emphasis on the word :easy] that counter power?
-Yes, we have protection

Is there one against condi builds?
-No, there isn’t

3)
How many stats, power builds need to work?
3

How many for condi builds?
1

4)
Why warriors have berseker’s stance?
-Because it’s the only way for them to avoid being perma crippled/snared from range, something which would nullify them completely

So here were are , an easy to follow example on why condi builds are over the top in this game, you need an immunity to avoid being perma snared to death so that your mele spec has a chance at fighting back

The low risk and high reward of condi builds, it’s what tick people off.

-Too much for too little investment
-Ability to apply pressure without fear of low return *( no need to worry about weakness, protection, retaliation or toughness)
-Little positioning required, bulk of damage can be applied safely from distance

Not much else to say, no need to go much deeper

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Posted by: Drarnor Kunoram.5180

Drarnor Kunoram.5180

Power builds work quite well with just Power. Precision and Ferocity aren’t really needed to kill things, they just make it faster. This is especially true for Reapers and Revenants, who can get high crit chances without Precision, but really, it can work out for anyone (Sigil of Intelligence exists, and there are multiple classes with strong Fury uptime).

Power builds are just as likely to be ranged as Condition builds are. Condition Warrior, Ranger, Guardian, and Revenant are all melee builds. Condition Engineer is also in melee for decent lengths of time. Only Necromancer, Mesmer, and Thief get to enjoy ranged condition builds.

Conversely, you have shatterburst Mesmers, Longbow Rangers, Hammer Revenants, and more for ranged Power builds. So yeah, arguments for positioning difficulties are total bull.

The risk/reward is extremely similar between condition builds and power builds. The difference is that people are horrible at knowing where high condition damage actually comes from. As such, the “reward” part gets artificially inflated.

It’s no harder to avoid condi burst than power burst. Heck, you don’t even have to change your build (two exceptions: Signet of Stone and Defy Pain, although Defy Pain usually is run alongside Berserker Stance)!

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Posted by: Saiyan.1704

Saiyan.1704

1)
Is there a single baseline stat that increase your defenses against power build?
-Yes, we have toughness

Is there one against condi builds?
-No, there isn’t

It has always been Vita.

2)
Is there an easy to access boon [emphasis on the word :easy] that counter power?
-Yes, we have protection

Is there one against condi builds?
-No, there isn’t

I didn’t include Boons as a relevant discussion in my previous post as it helps all build variants… so it really doesn’t matter.

But since you brought it up, Protection boon is a Soft Counter… if a counter at all. If it was a hard counter, then no power class would beat a perma Prot uptime Ele lol…

DS is a Hard Counter to ALL condi build variant, with the exception of hybrid builds and I guess Necros.

3)
How many stats, power builds need to work?
3

How many for condi builds?
1

We need 3 variables, not stats, for condi to work.

  • Condi applications whether that be several different conditions or a high application of just one.
  • Condi Duration
  • Condi Power – increasing condi damages either through traits, sigils, runes or amulets.

Don’t think condi builds aren’t sacrificing anything here.

So here were are , an easy to follow example on why condi builds are over the top in this game, you need an immunity to avoid being perma snared to death so that your mele spec has a chance at fighting back

The low risk and high reward of condi builds, it’s what tick people off.

-Too much for too little investment
-Ability to apply pressure without fear of low return *( no need to worry about weakness, protection, retaliation or toughness)
-Little positioning required, bulk of damage can be applied safely from distance

Not much else to say, no need to go much deeper

Honestly, you went too deep, it’s more simple than that.

The community’s inpression of the Condi Meta (way back when) was the same impression as Zerker Meta (way back when).

“It’s unhealthy to the game”.

That’s the exact words of Anet in reference of these two playstyles. It’s exactly why certain precautions are in place, removed, or altered, to limit the powercreep of these two buildtypes.

Mesmer 1 shot zerker bursts prepatch was an easy-to-play braindead spec that was 3x more cheese than any condi build. It can go both ways so, not sure why you continue to bring up the differences of playstyles when the main focus of the thread is a trait mechanic….

The biggest kick in the butt is that DS is no longer needed to prevent any potential condi build powercreep. Rock, Paper, Scissors has no grounds for a bad trait mechanic design.

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Posted by: Ross Biddle.2367

Ross Biddle.2367

Power builds work quite well with just Power. Precision and Ferocity aren’t really needed to kill things, they just make it faster. This is especially true for Reapers and Revenants, who can get high crit chances without Precision, but really, it can work out for anyone (Sigil of Intelligence exists, and there are multiple classes with strong Fury uptime).

Absolutely not true for Mesmer.