Guild Wars 2

Ross Biddle.2367:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Power builds work quite well with just Power. Precision and Ferocity aren’t really needed to kill things, they just make it faster. This is especially true for Reapers and Revenants, who can get high crit chances without Precision, but really, it can work out for anyone (Sigil of Intelligence exists, and there are multiple classes with strong Fury uptime).

Absolutely not true for Mesmer.

I admit to not being the most experienced Mesmer player, but pretty sure Mesmers have plenty of access to crit chance without Precision on gear. Between sword trait, phantasmal fury, and improved shatters, the options exist.

Now, I don’t say these are great, just that they exist. The opportunity cost on those traits is high.

Saiyan.1704:

DS is a Hard Counter to ALL condi build variant, with the exception of hybrid builds and I guess Necros.

Necros too. Viper is a hybrid amulet (both power and condition damage are equal).

Supreme.3164:

The rest of the world side

Sunshine.5014:
This argument fails because it’s actually: “if you don’t heavily spec into full condi cleanse, you deserve to die to condis”.
Bringing 1, 2, or even 3 condi cleanse doesn’t make you any survive against the condi users. Have 3 cleanse? Great, so you can cleanse the amount of condi my Engi loads to you in 2 seconds? Yah, great, you prolong your life by 2s.
The reason why Ele could stand condi is because it has the most number of cleanse, and it had to fully spec into condi cleanse. So, to protect your condi spam, now you request everyone to heavily spec into condi cleansing just to have a remote chance to stay alive under your spam?

The necro side

Cogbyrn.7283
If I heavily spec to counter power, I can survive for a long time against power. If I heavily spec to counter condis, I can survive a long time against condis. If I spec to sort of mitigate power, I have to be careful of when I use mitigation. If I spec to sort of cleanse condis, I have to be careful of when I use mitigation/cleansing.
Why should condis not be able to exploit weakness in dealing with condis?

The “why you hate condis?” quote

The hate against condis often seems irrationally strong, and I honestly believe it really kills discussions around balance.

Why this thread still going? I should be obvious by now why condis are hated, how it is even possible to compare power builds to condi build in terms of risk/reward ratio?

Without descending in further discussion about skills, traits and all…here and now I will write down the main differences between power builds and condition builds , this should make it very easy to understand why condi builds are despised and frowned upon.

1)
Is there a single baseline stat that increase your defenses against power build?
-Yes, we have toughness

Is there one against condi builds?
-No, there isn’t

2)
Is there an easy to access boon [emphasis on the word :easy] that counter power?
-Yes, we have protection

Is there one against condi builds?
-No, there isn’t

3)
How many stats, power builds need to work?
3

How many for condi builds?
1

4)
Why warriors have berseker’s stance?
-Because it’s the only way for them to avoid being perma crippled/snared from range, something which would nullify them completely

So here were are , an easy to follow example on why condi builds are over the top in this game, you need an immunity to avoid being perma snared to death so that your mele spec has a chance at fighting back

The low risk and high reward of condi builds, it’s what tick people off.

-Too much for too little investment
-Ability to apply pressure without fear of low return *( no need to worry about weakness, protection, retaliation or toughness)
-Little positioning required, bulk of damage can be applied safely from distance

Not much else to say, no need to go much deeper

Yes, I am a Necro. Yes, I have access to transfers(/cleanses, though a transfer has more risk than a cleanse) more often, it seems, than other classes. Yes, even in a power build, I often use condis to help control a fight.

No, I don’t ever stick with a condi build. No, I don’t sacrifice condi transfers for other utilities/weapon sets that would provide more DPS, because I understand the usefulness of being able to drop condis. Even as a Warrior, years back, I would run Signet of Stamina because a full condi drop was incredibly useful (I also ran Lyssa runes back when they converted all condis instead of just 5, so I had two full condi wipes with Lyssa and Stam before Zerker Stance was changed to ignore condis). No, I don’t just ignore the idea of condis when I make my build, then wonder why condi pressure hurts so badly.

How can “little positioning” be required, when often, spacing is paramount for freely applying continual pressure? Sure, you can apply pressure when someone is up in your face, but odds are at that point you’re taking more damage quicker than you’re dishing out. The spacing and positioning helps you establish dominance in the fight, and if you don’t have it, you can be put in a bad place quickly.

I played a Hammer/Greatsword Warrior before Zerker Stance was a condi immunity, and I kept on top of people without much issue. You recognize your weakness and try to fill it with build or gameplay. Since you can almost always try to dodge power application, the slow but steady condition style was something I always recognized as threatening, and always always always built more heavily against than power mitigation from stats/traits.

Even now, as a Power Necro, I take Shrouded Removal, Corrupter’s Fervor, Relentless Pursuit, and Melandru Runes in sPvP when I roll extra tanky. I also always take Plague Signet and one weapon set that has an ability to transfer (OH Dagger or Staff, typically OH Dagger these days). If I see an enemy comp that appears heavy on potential condis (multiple Necros especially), I’ll roll Suffer! as well.

No, I’m not winning tournaments. But guess what? Neither are 95+% of the people complaining about imbalance on these forums. I recognize strengths and attempt to counter them, while others seem to run their Meta Battle build and then complain when something exploits their weakness.

I used to hate condis. I thought they were way too strong, and I went out of my way to try to prove it by making full-condi builds on build editors and analyzing how much damage they did per application. Do you know what I found? I found that I didn’t actually hate condis. I just didn’t fully recognize how abilities applied them.

In short, I’d love to see Diamond Skin be reworked, because I think it represents a toxic direction in the game’s design. If it doesn’t get reworked, oh well, I’ll learn to deal with it.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Ross Biddle.2367:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Power builds work quite well with just Power. Precision and Ferocity aren’t really needed to kill things, they just make it faster. This is especially true for Reapers and Revenants, who can get high crit chances without Precision, but really, it can work out for anyone (Sigil of Intelligence exists, and there are multiple classes with strong Fury uptime).

Absolutely not true for Mesmer.

I admit to not being the most experienced Mesmer player, but pretty sure Mesmers have plenty of access to crit chance without Precision on gear. Between sword trait, phantasmal fury, and improved shatters, the options exist.

Now, I don’t say these are great, just that they exist. The opportunity cost on those traits is high.

Saiyan.1704:

DS is a Hard Counter to ALL condi build variant, with the exception of hybrid builds and I guess Necros.

Necros too. Viper is a hybrid amulet (both power and condition damage are equal).

Actually it has nothing to do with opportunity costs and everything to do with phantasms and weapon skill coefficients. Not to mention how Mesmer bursts work.

Actually our best option for what you’re talking about has only come with Chronomancer, and is based purely on ones ability to maintain slow on his target (this one is viable and legit). Never the less, viable builds are having to give up the likes of dueling and illusions, so again, absolutely not true for Mesmer.

Works great on classes whos primary source of sustained damage comes directly from the user though.

Ross Biddle.2367:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Ross Biddle.2367:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Power builds work quite well with just Power. Precision and Ferocity aren’t really needed to kill things, they just make it faster. This is especially true for Reapers and Revenants, who can get high crit chances without Precision, but really, it can work out for anyone (Sigil of Intelligence exists, and there are multiple classes with strong Fury uptime).

Absolutely not true for Mesmer.

I admit to not being the most experienced Mesmer player, but pretty sure Mesmers have plenty of access to crit chance without Precision on gear. Between sword trait, phantasmal fury, and improved shatters, the options exist.

Now, I don’t say these are great, just that they exist. The opportunity cost on those traits is high.

Saiyan.1704:

DS is a Hard Counter to ALL condi build variant, with the exception of hybrid builds and I guess Necros.

Necros too. Viper is a hybrid amulet (both power and condition damage are equal).

Actually it has nothing to do with opportunity costs and everything to do with phantasms and weapon skill coefficients. Not to mention how Mesmer bursts work.

Actually our best option for what you’re talking about has only come with Chronomancer, and is based purely on ones ability to maintain slow on his target (this one is viable and legit). Never the less, viable builds are having to give up the likes of dueling and illusions, so again, absolutely not true for Mesmer.

Works great on classes whos primary source of sustained damage comes directly from the user though.

The opportunity cost is still there, as to use the traits you not only have to pick them over other options, but you also have to use perhaps sub-par weapons (though the Phantasm Fury is a slightly different story, since every build has at least two phantasms).

As I said, I don’t claim to be an expert Mesmer player. Phantasms being the only summonable entity that scales off of player stats does make them different from the usual. On most professions, the AI build is the one that gets great Soldier kill times, but Mesmer I will fully admit is different.

Rising Dusk.2408:

Trigr.6481:

Solution: Diamond skin – Reduces the duration of all incoming conditions by 40%

I don’t think that’s a good solution because it doesn’t offer counterplay. It’s just a passive effect, which isn’t very interesting. It’s also a little too strong number-wise stacked with other condition duration reductions. I still think the best solution follows:

Diamond Skin: Gain Resistance for 4 seconds when attuning to Earth.

The counterplay here is to either strip the Resistance or to condition burst the Elementalist after the boon has run out while Earth Attunement is on cooldown. This also rewards effective play on the Elementalist’s part better, as they can counter an incoming condition burst by saving Earth and swapping to it when it hits.

Going to cross-post this since it is relevant here as well.

ReaperJr.5967:

Krysard.1364:

ReaperJr.5967:

Krysard.1364:

ReaperJr.5967:

The thought that cele necro pre hot countered cele ele was a myth. At least, the meta build couldnt do it. A necro would have to spec full boon convert to counter ele, which would make them vulnerable to other classes in pvp. Also the reason why nobody did it.

Necro has usually countered ele. With last meta, cele necro didnt countered cele ele due to the fact that cele ele was broken, but necro had the tools to counter him. In fact, it was one of the few builds that could engage a 1v1 against an ele and potentially win

I was speaking about post nerf and pre-hot. Eles were fine then. In all my games as an ele, and all the duels i have fought, i haven’t met a single necro who stood a chance against meta d/d ele with the metabattle cele signet build.

Perhaps you would care to enlighten me if you play a necro? Otherwise, im surprised at how you arrived at that conclusion.

Im not sure what I have to explain. Eles wrecked necros pre-HoT cause they were broken, but necros had a bunch of utilites that countered the ele build, which makes them better for a 1v1 that, lets say, a thief. Also, and thats not only my own experience but also top pvp streamers talking about it, cele necro could win cele ele if they played smartly

Yes, but like i said, they had to trait and build for it. Which would also mean they would counter ele but be vulnerable to everything else. The meta cele build then did not counter ele, and it’s not because eles were broken, but because it was a more well rounded build.

Which ‘top streamers’ were you referring to?

If I remember correctly, Phanta, Helseth and Denshee talked about this, and yes, eles were broken :/

On the contrary, only skilled Eles can frequently maintain a health threshold above 90% most of the time to make this trait useful.
And in a very subtle way, it’s a way of saying kitten you to the braindead condi reapers, so I see nothing wrong with this. Move on and l2p.

Hakuryuu.8634:

And in a very subtle way, it’s a way of saying kitten you to the braindead condi reapers, so I see nothing wrong with this. Move on and l2p.

I love seeing the “braindead” argument about other classes/specs. Ironic how you tell people to l2p against a passive immunity to an entire type of damage/utility, whereas you don’t seem to feel you should l2p against a class actively managing condition application on a target.

But I forget. Everything that beats us is classified (hilariously, I might add) as “braindead”, and everything we do in the game is the highest form of skill.

Hakuryuu.8634:

On the contrary, only skilled Eles can frequently maintain a health threshold above 90% most of the time to make this trait useful.
And in a very subtle way, it’s a way of saying kitten you to the braindead condi reapers, so I see nothing wrong with this. Move on and l2p.

I smell a biased opinion. Agains a pure conditions build, any Electric with Diamond Skin can easily maintain 90% health. This is not a lap issue, and has most likely been overlooked thus far due to how poor it performs in team fights wheb the Ele’’s health could drop below 90%.

Cogbyrn.7283:

Hakuryuu.8634:

And in a very subtle way, it’s a way of saying kitten you to the braindead condi reapers, so I see nothing wrong with this. Move on and l2p.

I love seeing the “braindead” argument about other classes/specs. Ironic how you tell people to l2p against a passive immunity to an entire type of damage/utility, whereas you don’t seem to feel you should l2p against a class actively managing condition application on a target.

But I forget. Everything that beats us is classified (hilariously, I might add) as “braindead”, and everything we do in the game is the highest form of skill.

Braindead:
adjective: a term used to describe a class or object that the speaker does not play or identify with.
see also: spammy

Hmm. Diamond skin reduces the condition damage by 90% or diamond skin reduces the duration of conditions by 90%?

The Ace.9105:

Hmm. Diamond skin reduces the condition damage by 90% or diamond skin reduces the duration of conditions by 90%?

Makes you immune of conditions while above 90% HP

This thread is just the best: People complaining about Diamond skin then we get 1-shot all over the place by skills that hit over 10k/sec from heavy classes.

Really, you’re gonna complain about a 10% threshold when you can just 1-shot the class down?

Xillllix.3485:

This thread is just the best: People complaining about Diamond skin then we get 1-shot all over the place by skills that hit over 10k/sec from heavy classes.

Really, you’re gonna complain about a 10% threshold when you can just 1-shot the class down?

I didn’t realize condi builds had power attacks that hit for 10k.

Crinn.7864:

Xillllix.3485:

This thread is just the best: People complaining about Diamond skin then we get 1-shot all over the place by skills that hit over 10k/sec from heavy classes.

Really, you’re gonna complain about a 10% threshold when you can just 1-shot the class down?

I didn’t realize condi builds had power attacks that hit for 10k.

My condi Reaper can do 6k Gravediggers. Just get one of your friend to cleave or adapt your build. Condis are passive and constant damage, they initially were not meant be your main source of damage.

It’s quite normal that the squishiest class has the best counter to a 1-sided build.

Anyway that trait isn’t even good.

Xillllix.3485:

Crinn.7864:

Xillllix.3485:

This thread is just the best: People complaining about Diamond skin then we get 1-shot all over the place by skills that hit over 10k/sec from heavy classes.

Really, you’re gonna complain about a 10% threshold when you can just 1-shot the class down?

I didn’t realize condi builds had power attacks that hit for 10k.

My condi Reaper can do 6k Gravediggers. Just get one of your friend to cleave or adapt your build. Condis are passive and constant damage, they initially were not meant be your main source of damage.

It’s quite normal that the squishiest class has the best counter to a 1-sided build.

Anyway that trait isn’t even good.

You’re not running Condi Reaper. Not with Greatsword, and those numbers require at least Vipers amulet, which is hybrid (or did you forget that it gives just as much Power as condition damage?). No, at best, you’re running hybrid Reaper, and even then, you’re more focused on Power than condition.

And Conditions have been intended since alpha to be an option for your main damage source. ANet has been stating that since their first articles on the stat system and boon/condition system for GW2.

Conditions are no more “passive” than power is. If you don’t hit, you do nothing. Cast times are no shorter, unmitigated damage is pretty much identical, and they have just as many counters and defenses as Power damage does.

Is Diamond Skin good? Not from a design standpoint. This trait, more than any other, is binary: you either win almost automatically, or you don’t have a grandmaster trait. The way it works now is too polar and it can definitely be reworked to be more applicable without giving auto-wins.

Rising Dusk.2408:

Diamond Skin: Gain Resistance for 4 seconds when attuning to Earth.

The counterplay here is to either strip the Resistance or to condition burst the Elementalist after the boon has run out while Earth Attunement is on cooldown. This also rewards effective play on the Elementalist’s part better, as they can counter an incoming condition burst by saving Earth and swapping to it when it hits.

I see some Problems regarding PvP:

Diamond skin is a necessity currently against reapers to stand a chance of winning the 1v1, but it’s also the class that gives the least farts about boons such as resistance. Yes it’ll make the MU harder for the Necro if you run it compared to like stoneheart, but the class against you need diamon skin the most will have the easiest time to deal with it, while other classes like engi will likely have just as hard of a time, if not harder, against resistance as with the resistance.

What I like about it is that it requires more skill and isn’t completely useless in teamfights.

4 seconds of resistance alone might be too weak though, they should add some other effect to it, like for example 4 seconds of resistance for you and 2 seconds for allies in a small radius (like 240). It would make the skill even more interesting to use, it wouldn’t change 1v1’s a bit. It would also require very good timing, so unorganized teams (that have a harder time with getting rid of resistance because of communication and a well worked-out team setup) wouldn’t be faced with a way too strong skill, but Top-teams could make great use out of it, but also have the skill and organization to deal with it better.

PowerBottom.5796:

Rising Dusk.2408:

Diamond Skin: Gain Resistance for 4 seconds when attuning to Earth.

The counterplay here is to either strip the Resistance or to condition burst the Elementalist after the boon has run out while Earth Attunement is on cooldown. This also rewards effective play on the Elementalist’s part better, as they can counter an incoming condition burst by saving Earth and swapping to it when it hits.

I see some Problems regarding PvP:

Diamond skin is a necessity currently against reapers to stand a chance of winning the 1v1, but it’s also the class that gives the least farts about boons such as resistance. Yes it’ll make the MU harder for the Necro if you run it compared to like stoneheart, but the class against you need diamon skin the most will have the easiest time to deal with it, while other classes like engi will likely have just as hard of a time, if not harder, against resistance as with the resistance.

What I like about it is that it requires more skill and isn’t completely useless in teamfights.

4 seconds of resistance alone might be too weak though, they should add some other effect to it, like for example 4 seconds of resistance for you and 2 seconds for allies in a small radius (like 240). It would make the skill even more interesting to use, it wouldn’t change 1v1’s a bit. It would also require very good timing, so unorganized teams (that have a harder time with getting rid of resistance because of communication and a well worked-out team setup) wouldn’t be faced with a way too strong skill, but Top-teams could make great use out of it, but also have the skill and organization to deal with it better.

I like the idea of giving a bit of Resistance to nearby allies when it procs. It does improve teamplay and creates a fun play/counterplay mechanic. The one thing I’d keep an eye on is multiple eles cycling through to keep perma-Resistance on the team, but the proposed radius is small enough that it doesn’t allow for that to happen without opening themselves up to a variety of other attacks.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

PowerBottom.5796:

Rising Dusk.2408:

Diamond Skin: Gain Resistance for 4 seconds when attuning to Earth.

The counterplay here is to either strip the Resistance or to condition burst the Elementalist after the boon has run out while Earth Attunement is on cooldown. This also rewards effective play on the Elementalist’s part better, as they can counter an incoming condition burst by saving Earth and swapping to it when it hits.

I see some Problems regarding PvP:

Diamond skin is a necessity currently against reapers to stand a chance of winning the 1v1, but it’s also the class that gives the least farts about boons such as resistance. Yes it’ll make the MU harder for the Necro if you run it compared to like stoneheart, but the class against you need diamon skin the most will have the easiest time to deal with it, while other classes like engi will likely have just as hard of a time, if not harder, against resistance as with the resistance.

What I like about it is that it requires more skill and isn’t completely useless in teamfights.

4 seconds of resistance alone might be too weak though, they should add some other effect to it, like for example 4 seconds of resistance for you and 2 seconds for allies in a small radius (like 240). It would make the skill even more interesting to use, it wouldn’t change 1v1’s a bit. It would also require very good timing, so unorganized teams (that have a harder time with getting rid of resistance because of communication and a well worked-out team setup) wouldn’t be faced with a way too strong skill, but Top-teams could make great use out of it, but also have the skill and organization to deal with it better.

I like the idea of giving a bit of Resistance to nearby allies when it procs. It does improve teamplay and creates a fun play/counterplay mechanic. The one thing I’d keep an eye on is multiple eles cycling through to keep perma-Resistance on the team, but the proposed radius is small enough that it doesn’t allow for that to happen without opening themselves up to a variety of other attacks.

well, you also have to know that stoneheart is pretty important for ele’s to survive burst in teamfights. That’s why most eles that actually run diamond skin, also run a focus, since it offers an additional CD against burst. If multiple ele’s run the resistance, it’ll simply mean that multiple ele’s are either way easier to burst down, or loose a lot of teamsupport, since they have to run Focus.

Could it be abused as a hard-counter to condi-only teamfight-builds? Of course, but that is a risk you will have to take when running rather gimmicky comps like that.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Xillllix.3485:

Crinn.7864:

Xillllix.3485:

This thread is just the best: People complaining about Diamond skin then we get 1-shot all over the place by skills that hit over 10k/sec from heavy classes.

Really, you’re gonna complain about a 10% threshold when you can just 1-shot the class down?

I didn’t realize condi builds had power attacks that hit for 10k.

My condi Reaper can do 6k Gravediggers. Just get one of your friend to cleave or adapt your build. Condis are passive and constant damage, they initially were not meant be your main source of damage.

It’s quite normal that the squishiest class has the best counter to a 1-sided build.

Anyway that trait isn’t even good.

You’re not running Condi Reaper. Not with Greatsword, and those numbers require at least Vipers amulet, which is hybrid (or did you forget that it gives just as much Power as condition damage?). No, at best, you’re running hybrid Reaper, and even then, you’re more focused on Power than condition.

And Conditions have been intended since alpha to be an option for your main damage source. ANet has been stating that since their first articles on the stat system and boon/condition system for GW2.

Conditions are no more “passive” than power is. If you don’t hit, you do nothing. Cast times are no shorter, unmitigated damage is pretty much identical, and they have just as many counters and defenses as Power damage does.

Is Diamond Skin good? Not from a design standpoint. This trait, more than any other, is binary: you either win almost automatically, or you don’t have a grandmaster trait. The way it works now is too polar and it can definitely be reworked to be more applicable without giving auto-wins.

What you need to realize is that bunker ele is the only viable ele build right now because Anet listened to all the ridiculous anti-eles complaints from people that couldn’t adapt. The ele needs hard counters, it’s just that squishy of a class now. The class used to be playable with a Berserker amulet, now even Marauder is not usable on ele.

What will you ask to be nerfed after Diamond skin? Stoneheart? If you nerf more of the defensive mechanism of the class the class is just dead. It has already been cornered into this bullkitten bunker meta that is just no fun to play at all (which is why I switched to Reaper).

Plus, “condi-only” and “teamfight” don’t belong together in the same sentence anyway.

It’s worth keeping an eye on, but it’s not a thing I would personally balance around. I definitely wouldn’t assume it for balance purposes.

Xillllix.3485:

What you need to realize is that bunker ele is the only viable ele build right now because Anet listened to all the ridiculous anti-eles complaints from people that couldn’t adapt. The ele needs hard counters, it’s just that squishy of a class now. The class used to be playable with a Berserker amulet, now even Marauder is not usable on ele.

What will you ask to be nerfed after Diamond skin? Stoneheart? If you nerf more of the defensive mechanism of the class the class is just dead. It has already been cornered into this bullkitten bunker meta that is just no fun to play at all (which is why I switched to Reaper).

What’s funny is that the build everyone was complaining about used Celestial amulet and hasn’t really seen nerfs, rendering your first paragraph meaningless in the face of history, but I digress. Fresh Air ele is the only time they went glass, but was by far the definition of “glass cannon”, bursting down even Warriors before they could react, but dying to a stiff breeze themselves.

Stone Heart is better designed than Diamond Skin based on two reasons:

1. It doesn’t totally negate direct damage. Even if that backstab didn’t crit, it still did damage. You can kill a stone heart ele in earth attunement using only direct damage. Not the easiest thing in the world, but it’s definitely possible.

2. Stone Heart has natural openings that an opponent can use. When the ele shifts out of Earth, he can be crit. If he stays in earth, his damage is much lower, so you can play around that fact instead.

Xillllix.3485:

What will you ask to be nerfed after Diamond skin?

I’m not sure how many want Diamond Skin nerfed, necessarily. It seems most want it re-designed so there’s something you can do instead of /sit if you happened to be Condi-based and a DS Ele happens across your path. It’s useless in the face of Power, and it’s useless in the sense that teamfights allow your team to bump the Ele down below 90%, then not even the Ele can do anything besides try to heal in order to time Condi mitigation.

Would it not be better for Eles to see this trait redesigned? I still don’t think it should necessarily be a priority to re-design it, but I think it’s a very toxic direction for game design.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

What’s funny is that the build everyone was complaining about used Celestial amulet and hasn’t really seen nerfs, rendering your first paragraph meaningless in the face of history, but I digress. Fresh Air ele is the only time they went glass, but was by far the definition of “glass cannon”, bursting down even Warriors before they could react, but dying to a stiff breeze themselves.

The might on cantrip nerf was a huge nerf for celestial eles that relies on stacking might, and before that might was nerfed and the sigil of battle as well. Burning was nerfed and our condi damage comes form the celestial amulet.

Fresh air ele is destroyed, it’s no longer viable because it no longer has the burst to down anyone, and now heavy and medium classes have a better burst than light classes and light classes are tanking, so the entire balance went down the drain.

Xillllix.3485:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

What’s funny is that the build everyone was complaining about used Celestial amulet and hasn’t really seen nerfs, rendering your first paragraph meaningless in the face of history, but I digress. Fresh Air ele is the only time they went glass, but was by far the definition of “glass cannon”, bursting down even Warriors before they could react, but dying to a stiff breeze themselves.

The might on cantrip nerf was a huge nerf for celestial eles that relies on stacking might, and before that might was nerfed and the sigil of battle as well. Burning was nerfed and our condi damage comes form the celestial amulet.

Fresh air ele is destroyed, it’s no longer viable because it no longer has the burst to down anyone, and now heavy and medium classes have a better burst than light classes and light classes are tanking, so the entire balance went down the drain.

Fresh Air did get destroyed (no bolt to the heart access really, really hurts), but given it wasn’t really viable to begin with… To be clear, I’m a fan of build diversity across the board, but unless thief, mesmer, and Shiro get nerfed to oblivion, glass ele will frankly never be a thing in PvP.

As far as “light classes tanking” and such, ANet stated that each profession should be able to perform each role. They’ve succeeded in some cases (Eles being some of the best tanks, for example, despite having the lowest health and armor), not so much in others (ever seen a thief tank?).

Krysard.1364:

ReaperJr.5967:

Krysard.1364:

ReaperJr.5967:

Krysard.1364:

ReaperJr.5967:

The thought that cele necro pre hot countered cele ele was a myth. At least, the meta build couldnt do it. A necro would have to spec full boon convert to counter ele, which would make them vulnerable to other classes in pvp. Also the reason why nobody did it.

Necro has usually countered ele. With last meta, cele necro didnt countered cele ele due to the fact that cele ele was broken, but necro had the tools to counter him. In fact, it was one of the few builds that could engage a 1v1 against an ele and potentially win

I was speaking about post nerf and pre-hot. Eles were fine then. In all my games as an ele, and all the duels i have fought, i haven’t met a single necro who stood a chance against meta d/d ele with the metabattle cele signet build.

Perhaps you would care to enlighten me if you play a necro? Otherwise, im surprised at how you arrived at that conclusion.

Im not sure what I have to explain. Eles wrecked necros pre-HoT cause they were broken, but necros had a bunch of utilites that countered the ele build, which makes them better for a 1v1 that, lets say, a thief. Also, and thats not only my own experience but also top pvp streamers talking about it, cele necro could win cele ele if they played smartly

Yes, but like i said, they had to trait and build for it. Which would also mean they would counter ele but be vulnerable to everything else. The meta cele build then did not counter ele, and it’s not because eles were broken, but because it was a more well rounded build.

Which ‘top streamers’ were you referring to?

If I remember correctly, Phanta, Helseth and Denshee talked about this, and yes, eles were broken :/

Unlikely they were referring to the meta build then. And eles were broken pre-fire nerf but were fine post-fire nerf. To quote you, a ‘top streamer’ said so.

Rezzet.3614:

I just love how this exact trait was deemed overpowered in engineers and they had theirs removed while theirs only activated while they had 25% hp or under and did not removed currently applied conditions

‘this exact trait’?

…I can’t even… these forums, endless facepalms

infantrydiv.1620:

Rezzet.3614:

I just love how this exact trait was deemed overpowered in engineers and they had theirs removed while theirs only activated while they had 25% hp or under and did not removed currently applied conditions

‘this exact trait’?

…I can’t even… these forums, endless facepalms

Automated Response did originally function identically except for the health threshold. That was while below 25% instead of above 90%.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

ANet stated that each profession should be able to perform each role.

I think, if anything, this is their mistake. They are trying too hard to appease everyone, but if they want spvp balance, i think they should limit classes to very specific roles. Unfortunately this is an MMO,so attachment is so strong that they almost can’t. It is a doomed genre for competitive balance.

Cogbyrn.7283:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

ANet stated that each profession should be able to perform each role.

I think, if anything, this is their mistake. They are trying too hard to appease everyone, but if they want spvp balance, i think they should limit classes to very specific roles. Unfortunately this is an MMO,so attachment is so strong that they almost can’t. It is a doomed genre for competitive balance.

It’s not a doomed genre for competitive balance. It’s that players cannot and will not accept any game as balanced. Humans have a natural desire to rank things mentally, and it’s mentally impossible for humans to accept two different things as equally powerful.

So here is a fun question, assume that you get what you want (regardless of whether or not it is good for the game) and Diamond Skin is removed from the game. What effects will this have?

1) Ele won’t be able to counter things such as perma chill uptime reaper has despite ele really only doing super bunker (that literally is their only role).
2) Ele is even more pigeonholed into taking Water in builds because there is no other specialization that helps them with Conditions and their skills don’t remove enough conditions to be front line. And it still might not be enough as classes which apply condi can apply them a lot and continuously.

90% hp is fine because Ele doesn’t do a lot of damage anyway, and 10% of 19k is only 1.9k hp. They do one thing, bunker and bunker well. Remove that and you can say goodbye to any sense of viability.

ReaperJr.5967:

Krysard.1364:

ReaperJr.5967:

Krysard.1364:

ReaperJr.5967:

Krysard.1364:

ReaperJr.5967:

The thought that cele necro pre hot countered cele ele was a myth. At least, the meta build couldnt do it. A necro would have to spec full boon convert to counter ele, which would make them vulnerable to other classes in pvp. Also the reason why nobody did it.

Necro has usually countered ele. With last meta, cele necro didnt countered cele ele due to the fact that cele ele was broken, but necro had the tools to counter him. In fact, it was one of the few builds that could engage a 1v1 against an ele and potentially win

I was speaking about post nerf and pre-hot. Eles were fine then. In all my games as an ele, and all the duels i have fought, i haven’t met a single necro who stood a chance against meta d/d ele with the metabattle cele signet build.

Perhaps you would care to enlighten me if you play a necro? Otherwise, im surprised at how you arrived at that conclusion.

Im not sure what I have to explain. Eles wrecked necros pre-HoT cause they were broken, but necros had a bunch of utilites that countered the ele build, which makes them better for a 1v1 that, lets say, a thief. Also, and thats not only my own experience but also top pvp streamers talking about it, cele necro could win cele ele if they played smartly

Yes, but like i said, they had to trait and build for it. Which would also mean they would counter ele but be vulnerable to everything else. The meta cele build then did not counter ele, and it’s not because eles were broken, but because it was a more well rounded build.

Which ‘top streamers’ were you referring to?

If I remember correctly, Phanta, Helseth and Denshee talked about this, and yes, eles were broken :/

Unlikely they were referring to the meta build then. And eles were broken pre-fire nerf but were fine post-fire nerf. To quote you, a ‘top streamer’ said so.

They were talking about meta builds, and there weretop streamers that though cele ele was still really strong post-nerf

Anyway, thats not OP related

I Play cond DD (played cond Thief before HoT) and I can’t make celestial go below 90% to start cond bursting, not dire/carrion or ravanger can do it (used all 3 for long time)

My perplexity dire mesmer (now chrono) also can’t get a celestial ele/tempest below 90%, he will outsustain and cleanse all.

That beeing said my favorite two builds are totaly unable to kill “tanky” eles.

AND I don’t get angry when I encounter then, as they also can’t kill me on neither those 2 classes, on WvW I’m used to dueling then for 1-2 minutes than just stand and do “salute” emote and leave… every ele I faced until today agreed on this stalemates and never followed me either (on wvw)

Imo conds are strong and I think there is no problem on existing ONE hard-counter to dedicated cond builds.

If you think about it DH/Reaper are still tougher to face, and they don’t have diamond skin (lol).

Krysard.1364:

ReaperJr.5967:

Krysard.1364:

ReaperJr.5967:

Krysard.1364:

ReaperJr.5967:

Krysard.1364:

ReaperJr.5967:

The thought that cele necro pre hot countered cele ele was a myth. At least, the meta build couldnt do it. A necro would have to spec full boon convert to counter ele, which would make them vulnerable to other classes in pvp. Also the reason why nobody did it.

Necro has usually countered ele. With last meta, cele necro didnt countered cele ele due to the fact that cele ele was broken, but necro had the tools to counter him. In fact, it was one of the few builds that could engage a 1v1 against an ele and potentially win

I was speaking about post nerf and pre-hot. Eles were fine then. In all my games as an ele, and all the duels i have fought, i haven’t met a single necro who stood a chance against meta d/d ele with the metabattle cele signet build.

Perhaps you would care to enlighten me if you play a necro? Otherwise, im surprised at how you arrived at that conclusion.

Im not sure what I have to explain. Eles wrecked necros pre-HoT cause they were broken, but necros had a bunch of utilites that countered the ele build, which makes them better for a 1v1 that, lets say, a thief. Also, and thats not only my own experience but also top pvp streamers talking about it, cele necro could win cele ele if they played smartly

Yes, but like i said, they had to trait and build for it. Which would also mean they would counter ele but be vulnerable to everything else. The meta cele build then did not counter ele, and it’s not because eles were broken, but because it was a more well rounded build.

Which ‘top streamers’ were you referring to?

If I remember correctly, Phanta, Helseth and Denshee talked about this, and yes, eles were broken :/

Unlikely they were referring to the meta build then. And eles were broken pre-fire nerf but were fine post-fire nerf. To quote you, a ‘top streamer’ said so.

They were talking about meta builds, and there weretop streamers that though cele ele was still really strong post-nerf

Anyway, thats not OP related

Strong =/= op or broken. Strong = fine. There’s definitely going to be builds classified as strong, but not over the top. Meta ele was one of them.

Well, top streamers can say what they want but they could be wrong. Meta cele necro having an advantage over meta cele ele is definitely an unfounded belief. Im willing to prove so if needed.

ReaperJr.5967:

Krysard.1364:

ReaperJr.5967:

Krysard.1364:

ReaperJr.5967:

Krysard.1364:

ReaperJr.5967:

Krysard.1364:

ReaperJr.5967:

The thought that cele necro pre hot countered cele ele was a myth. At least, the meta build couldnt do it. A necro would have to spec full boon convert to counter ele, which would make them vulnerable to other classes in pvp. Also the reason why nobody did it.

Necro has usually countered ele. With last meta, cele necro didnt countered cele ele due to the fact that cele ele was broken, but necro had the tools to counter him. In fact, it was one of the few builds that could engage a 1v1 against an ele and potentially win

I was speaking about post nerf and pre-hot. Eles were fine then. In all my games as an ele, and all the duels i have fought, i haven’t met a single necro who stood a chance against meta d/d ele with the metabattle cele signet build.

Perhaps you would care to enlighten me if you play a necro? Otherwise, im surprised at how you arrived at that conclusion.

Im not sure what I have to explain. Eles wrecked necros pre-HoT cause they were broken, but necros had a bunch of utilites that countered the ele build, which makes them better for a 1v1 that, lets say, a thief. Also, and thats not only my own experience but also top pvp streamers talking about it, cele necro could win cele ele if they played smartly

Yes, but like i said, they had to trait and build for it. Which would also mean they would counter ele but be vulnerable to everything else. The meta cele build then did not counter ele, and it’s not because eles were broken, but because it was a more well rounded build.

Which ‘top streamers’ were you referring to?

If I remember correctly, Phanta, Helseth and Denshee talked about this, and yes, eles were broken :/

Unlikely they were referring to the meta build then. And eles were broken pre-fire nerf but were fine post-fire nerf. To quote you, a ‘top streamer’ said so.

They were talking about meta builds, and there weretop streamers that though cele ele was still really strong post-nerf

Anyway, thats not OP related

Strong =/= op or broken. Strong = fine. There’s definitely going to be builds classified as strong, but not over the top. Meta ele was one of them.

Well, top streamers can say what they want but they could be wrong. Meta cele necro having an advantage over meta cele ele is definitely an unfounded belief. Im willing to prove so if needed.

As said, this isnt post related, and Im really not going to discuss with you, so if you dont want to believe that cele necro was the only meta build that could stand a chance 1v1 a cele ele, nothing I can do about

Also, note my strong remark

Krysard.1364:

ReaperJr.5967:

Krysard.1364:

ReaperJr.5967:

Krysard.1364:

ReaperJr.5967:

Krysard.1364:

ReaperJr.5967:

Krysard.1364:

ReaperJr.5967:

The thought that cele necro pre hot countered cele ele was a myth. At least, the meta build couldnt do it. A necro would have to spec full boon convert to counter ele, which would make them vulnerable to other classes in pvp. Also the reason why nobody did it.

Necro has usually countered ele. With last meta, cele necro didnt countered cele ele due to the fact that cele ele was broken, but necro had the tools to counter him. In fact, it was one of the few builds that could engage a 1v1 against an ele and potentially win

I was speaking about post nerf and pre-hot. Eles were fine then. In all my games as an ele, and all the duels i have fought, i haven’t met a single necro who stood a chance against meta d/d ele with the metabattle cele signet build.

Perhaps you would care to enlighten me if you play a necro? Otherwise, im surprised at how you arrived at that conclusion.

Im not sure what I have to explain. Eles wrecked necros pre-HoT cause they were broken, but necros had a bunch of utilites that countered the ele build, which makes them better for a 1v1 that, lets say, a thief. Also, and thats not only my own experience but also top pvp streamers talking about it, cele necro could win cele ele if they played smartly

Yes, but like i said, they had to trait and build for it. Which would also mean they would counter ele but be vulnerable to everything else. The meta cele build then did not counter ele, and it’s not because eles were broken, but because it was a more well rounded build.

Which ‘top streamers’ were you referring to?

If I remember correctly, Phanta, Helseth and Denshee talked about this, and yes, eles were broken :/

Unlikely they were referring to the meta build then. And eles were broken pre-fire nerf but were fine post-fire nerf. To quote you, a ‘top streamer’ said so.

They were talking about meta builds, and there weretop streamers that though cele ele was still really strong post-nerf

Anyway, thats not OP related

Strong =/= op or broken. Strong = fine. There’s definitely going to be builds classified as strong, but not over the top. Meta ele was one of them.

Well, top streamers can say what they want but they could be wrong. Meta cele necro having an advantage over meta cele ele is definitely an unfounded belief. Im willing to prove so if needed.

As said, this isnt post related, and Im really not going to discuss with you, so if you dont want to believe that cele necro was the only meta build that could stand a chance 1v1 a cele ele, nothing I can do about

Also, note my strong remark

It is post related in the sense that someone claimed that necro has always been able to counter ele so there’s no reason why they shouldn’t now. Not that that’s a valid argument but it is post related nonetheless.

Telling me to believe that is like telling me to believe the world is flat because ‘so and so said so’. All the evidence stacks up against it. Would you believe it? I hope not.

Also, not to be mean but your personal impression of a class does not determine if it is broken or not. Unless, of course, you are able to support it with irrefutable logical reasons.

ReaperJr.5967:

Krysard.1364:

ReaperJr.5967:

Krysard.1364:

ReaperJr.5967:

Krysard.1364:

ReaperJr.5967:

Krysard.1364:

ReaperJr.5967:

Krysard.1364:

ReaperJr.5967:

The thought that cele necro pre hot countered cele ele was a myth. At least, the meta build couldnt do it. A necro would have to spec full boon convert to counter ele, which would make them vulnerable to other classes in pvp. Also the reason why nobody did it.

Necro has usually countered ele. With last meta, cele necro didnt countered cele ele due to the fact that cele ele was broken, but necro had the tools to counter him. In fact, it was one of the few builds that could engage a 1v1 against an ele and potentially win

I was speaking about post nerf and pre-hot. Eles were fine then. In all my games as an ele, and all the duels i have fought, i haven’t met a single necro who stood a chance against meta d/d ele with the metabattle cele signet build.

Perhaps you would care to enlighten me if you play a necro? Otherwise, im surprised at how you arrived at that conclusion.

Im not sure what I have to explain. Eles wrecked necros pre-HoT cause they were broken, but necros had a bunch of utilites that countered the ele build, which makes them better for a 1v1 that, lets say, a thief. Also, and thats not only my own experience but also top pvp streamers talking about it, cele necro could win cele ele if they played smartly

Yes, but like i said, they had to trait and build for it. Which would also mean they would counter ele but be vulnerable to everything else. The meta cele build then did not counter ele, and it’s not because eles were broken, but because it was a more well rounded build.

Which ‘top streamers’ were you referring to?

If I remember correctly, Phanta, Helseth and Denshee talked about this, and yes, eles were broken :/

Unlikely they were referring to the meta build then. And eles were broken pre-fire nerf but were fine post-fire nerf. To quote you, a ‘top streamer’ said so.

They were talking about meta builds, and there weretop streamers that though cele ele was still really strong post-nerf

Anyway, thats not OP related

Strong =/= op or broken. Strong = fine. There’s definitely going to be builds classified as strong, but not over the top. Meta ele was one of them.

Well, top streamers can say what they want but they could be wrong. Meta cele necro having an advantage over meta cele ele is definitely an unfounded belief. Im willing to prove so if needed.

As said, this isnt post related, and Im really not going to discuss with you, so if you dont want to believe that cele necro was the only meta build that could stand a chance 1v1 a cele ele, nothing I can do about

Also, note my strong remark

It is post related in the sense that someone claimed that necro has always been able to counter ele so there’s no reason why they shouldn’t now. Not that that’s a valid argument but it is post related nonetheless.

Telling me to believe that is like telling me to believe the world is flat because ‘so and so said so’. All the evidence stacks up against it. Would you believe it? I hope not.

Also, not to be mean but your personal impression of a class does not determine if it is broken or not. Unless, of course, you are able to support it with irrefutable logical reasons.

I’ve not stated that necros must be ele counters, someone said smth about counters and I’ve said that necro usually countered ele until now. Necros countered eles when power necro cause they could pressure the ele and the ele had no active defenses, so pressing DS1 wrecked them.

During cele meta, necros could sustain as much as eles and boon corrupt/dmg pressure them with max might stacks, and corrupt ele’s might, so basically they had the tools to beat an ele (boon corrupt and sustained dmg). But cause eles were broken these “counter” tools were not enough. Im supposed to demostrate that eles were broken? I’ve to post links about eles holding a 2-3v1 and winning every 1v1? Or top streamers just complaining about how broken it was, even post-nerf? TBH I didnt though I had to demonstarte that cele eles were broken last meta .-.

And, as said, nothing about this is OP related (unless you distort someone other words :p), so Im not going to discuss more with you

EDIT: (Not gonna say anything about dumbfire meta :p)

Senario.2038:

So here is a fun question, assume that you get what you want (regardless of whether or not it is good for the game) and Diamond Skin is removed from the game. What effects will this have?

Who is asking for it to be removed? I’m only seeing two groups here:

1. those blindly defending the current trait, not wanting to see any change even when they themselves say the trait is “bad.”

2. Those wanting to change the trait to provide openings for condition builds to use while also making the trait relevant against all opponents.

Krysard.1364:

ReaperJr.5967:

Krysard.1364:

ReaperJr.5967:

Krysard.1364:

ReaperJr.5967:

Krysard.1364:

ReaperJr.5967:

Krysard.1364:

ReaperJr.5967:

Krysard.1364:

ReaperJr.5967:

The thought that cele necro pre hot countered cele ele was a myth. At least, the meta build couldnt do it. A necro would have to spec full boon convert to counter ele, which would make them vulnerable to other classes in pvp. Also the reason why nobody did it.

Necro has usually countered ele. With last meta, cele necro didnt countered cele ele due to the fact that cele ele was broken, but necro had the tools to counter him. In fact, it was one of the few builds that could engage a 1v1 against an ele and potentially win

I was speaking about post nerf and pre-hot. Eles were fine then. In all my games as an ele, and all the duels i have fought, i haven’t met a single necro who stood a chance against meta d/d ele with the metabattle cele signet build.

Perhaps you would care to enlighten me if you play a necro? Otherwise, im surprised at how you arrived at that conclusion.

Im not sure what I have to explain. Eles wrecked necros pre-HoT cause they were broken, but necros had a bunch of utilites that countered the ele build, which makes them better for a 1v1 that, lets say, a thief. Also, and thats not only my own experience but also top pvp streamers talking about it, cele necro could win cele ele if they played smartly

Yes, but like i said, they had to trait and build for it. Which would also mean they would counter ele but be vulnerable to everything else. The meta cele build then did not counter ele, and it’s not because eles were broken, but because it was a more well rounded build.

Which ‘top streamers’ were you referring to?

If I remember correctly, Phanta, Helseth and Denshee talked about this, and yes, eles were broken :/

Unlikely they were referring to the meta build then. And eles were broken pre-fire nerf but were fine post-fire nerf. To quote you, a ‘top streamer’ said so.

They were talking about meta builds, and there weretop streamers that though cele ele was still really strong post-nerf

Anyway, thats not OP related

Strong =/= op or broken. Strong = fine. There’s definitely going to be builds classified as strong, but not over the top. Meta ele was one of them.

Well, top streamers can say what they want but they could be wrong. Meta cele necro having an advantage over meta cele ele is definitely an unfounded belief. Im willing to prove so if needed.

As said, this isnt post related, and Im really not going to discuss with you, so if you dont want to believe that cele necro was the only meta build that could stand a chance 1v1 a cele ele, nothing I can do about

Also, note my strong remark

It is post related in the sense that someone claimed that necro has always been able to counter ele so there’s no reason why they shouldn’t now. Not that that’s a valid argument but it is post related nonetheless.

Telling me to believe that is like telling me to believe the world is flat because ‘so and so said so’. All the evidence stacks up against it. Would you believe it? I hope not.

Also, not to be mean but your personal impression of a class does not determine if it is broken or not. Unless, of course, you are able to support it with irrefutable logical reasons.

I’ve not stated that necros must be ele counters, someone said smth about counters and I’ve said that necro usually countered ele until now. Necros countered eles when power necro cause they could pressure the ele and the ele had no active defenses, so pressing DS1 wrecked them.

During cele meta, necros could sustain as much as eles and boon corrupt/dmg pressure them with max might stacks, and corrupt ele’s might, so basically they had the tools to beat an ele (boon corrupt and sustained dmg). But cause eles were broken these “counter” tools were not enough. Im supposed to demostrate that eles were broken? I’ve to post links about eles holding a 2-3v1 and winning every 1v1? Or top streamers just complaining about how broken it was, even post-nerf? TBH I didnt though I had to demonstarte that cele eles were broken last meta .-.

And, as said, nothing about this is OP related (unless you distort someone other words :p), so Im not going to discuss more with you

EDIT: (Not gonna say anything about dumbfire meta :p)

Lol you’re being too self conscious here. I wasnt referring to you. And ele couldn’t 1v2/3 without dying if the opponents were as good as the ele. It’s the same reason you don’t see eles trying to 1v2/3 in competitive meta unless they were trying to stall for time.

You can show me videos demonstrating how ‘op’ ele was (although they clearly weren’t but go ahead). Post fire nerf, BA blind spam was nerfed, might on cantrip was nerfed, rof was nerfed, burn ticks from drake’s breath was also nerfed. So tell me why ele was ‘op’ again?

Why is this post so funny to me..

OK let’s get one thing straight on. D/F Soliders Celestial Tempest Elementalist has roughly 17.5k HP, going off of memory – 3k+ hours on my Elementalist.

Diamond Skin becomes useless at 90% HP, or 15k~.

If you fight anything with any form of flat damage, your 3rd tier Earth Talent is null and void. If you are 1v1’ing a Condi Necro, yes it is a counter. If you get +1’d by something (anything) with flat damage, you lose by default.

Diamond Skin is good when played into the proper team comp, otherwise Stone Heart is your best friend.

Saiyan.1704:

DS is a Hard Counter to ALL condi build variant, with the exception of hybrid builds and I guess Necros.

Necros too. Viper is a hybrid amulet (both power and condition damage are equal).

Viper is by no means a hybrid amulet, it invests only in the stats that boost condi damage in one way or another

roelvanesch.2817:

Saiyan.1704:

DS is a Hard Counter to ALL condi build variant, with the exception of hybrid builds and I guess Necros.

Necros too. Viper is a hybrid amulet (both power and condition damage are equal).

Viper is by no means a hybrid amulet, it invests only in the stats that boost condi damage in one way or another

Viper is more offensive version of Carrion, it has: Power, Condition Damage, Precision and Expertise.
Have you mistaken it with Wanderer?

roelvanesch.2817:

Saiyan.1704:

DS is a Hard Counter to ALL condi build variant, with the exception of hybrid builds and I guess Necros.

Necros too. Viper is a hybrid amulet (both power and condition damage are equal).

Viper is by no means a hybrid amulet, it invests only in the stats that boost condi damage in one way or another

So the 1050 Power is my imagination?

Gecko.1962:

Why is this post so funny to me..

OK let’s get one thing straight on. D/F Soliders Celestial Tempest Elementalist has roughly 17.5k HP, going off of memory – 3k+ hours on my Elementalist.

Diamond Skin becomes useless at 90% HP, or 15k~.

If you fight anything with any form of flat damage, your 3rd tier Earth Talent is null and void. If you are 1v1’ing a Condi Necro, yes it is a counter. If you get +1’d by something (anything) with flat damage, you lose by default.

Diamond Skin is good when played into the proper team comp, otherwise Stone Heart is your best friend.

You miss this thread’s entire point…. Does everyone read with a knight’s visor on?

Flumek.9043:

Hello.

Diamond skin.

Criticize.

Thank you

It is powerful enough to make one have an affair with Celestial or Viper while still married to Carrion/other pure condi builds.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Ross Biddle.2367:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Ross Biddle.2367:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Power builds work quite well with just Power. Precision and Ferocity aren’t really needed to kill things, they just make it faster. This is especially true for Reapers and Revenants, who can get high crit chances without Precision, but really, it can work out for anyone (Sigil of Intelligence exists, and there are multiple classes with strong Fury uptime).

Absolutely not true for Mesmer.

I admit to not being the most experienced Mesmer player, but pretty sure Mesmers have plenty of access to crit chance without Precision on gear. Between sword trait, phantasmal fury, and improved shatters, the options exist.

Now, I don’t say these are great, just that they exist. The opportunity cost on those traits is high.

Saiyan.1704:

DS is a Hard Counter to ALL condi build variant, with the exception of hybrid builds and I guess Necros.

Necros too. Viper is a hybrid amulet (both power and condition damage are equal).

Actually it has nothing to do with opportunity costs and everything to do with phantasms and weapon skill coefficients. Not to mention how Mesmer bursts work.

Actually our best option for what you’re talking about has only come with Chronomancer, and is based purely on ones ability to maintain slow on his target (this one is viable and legit). Never the less, viable builds are having to give up the likes of dueling and illusions, so again, absolutely not true for Mesmer.

Works great on classes whos primary source of sustained damage comes directly from the user though.

The opportunity cost is still there, as to use the traits you not only have to pick them over other options, but you also have to use perhaps sub-par weapons (though the Phantasm Fury is a slightly different story, since every build has at least two phantasms).

As I said, I don’t claim to be an expert Mesmer player. Phantasms being the only summonable entity that scales off of player stats does make them different from the usual. On most professions, the AI build is the one that gets great Soldier kill times, but Mesmer I will fully admit is different.

Just in case you’re unaware, while phants do scale of the players stats, phants don’t benefit from many trait, rune, and sigil based boons/effects. So if the Mesmer get +3% damage per illusion out, the phants dont. If the Mesmer has a sigil of force +5% damage, the phants dont, etc etc.

just wanted to give my opinion on this trait (again)
i think there should be some builds that do better vs some other builds ,
but when you have a trait that gives imune to all the other players damage , something wrong, and ofc when you fac ea dps build then this trait is crap.
so how about balance this trait anet?
maybe the same way (automated response) got balance?
this isnt right when a player is IMUNE IMUNE IMUNE to your damage .