Guild Wars 2

The tears of the facerolling condi heroes are incredibly satisfying lol.

Learn to adapt.

Aberrant.6749:

Prysin.8542:

Aberrant.6749:

Immunities/hard counters are bad for the game.

then please let us remove revealed from the game as it hardcounters stealth, berserker stance, cleansing ire, shadows rejuvenation, diamond skin, stability and let us not forget “evasion” skills…. or wasnt that what you meant?

You can only apply revealed to yourself (save one ranger skill).

Cleansing ire isn’t a hard counter nor immunity. If you blind them or dodge the f1 skill it doesn’t remove conds. That’s good, there is play/counterplay to that.

Not sure what shadow’s reju hard counters… it’s just hp while in stealth. Stealth isn’t the best thing to be relying on in PvP since you can’t hold or cap a point.

Stability can be stripped/corrupted.

I’ll just end this early and say you don’t understand what I mean if you think these types of things are involved or should be included.

Diamond skin can be countered by this really exciting new way of attacking people. Its called Direct damage. The way you do this is by wielding a weapon of sorts and smashing it into peoples faces. It make them cry a bit, and as their tears flow, diamond skin wears off.

IF you heard of it, try it. It will solve your problem entirely.

Re roll a build that actually takes effort. Jk. (Partly)

I’m for it since it counters a lot of these popular builds. But it’s to “Rock Paper Scissors” I get the idea of having a changing meta but skill is less of a factor.

overpowered in 1v1s vs heavy condi users, and somewhere between completely and mostly useless everywhere else, this trait is IMO the epitome of terrible game design, equivalent to a skill that insta-kills if your enemy’s name starts with a ‘J’.

Wouldn’t be the first time they made a trait like this. AR was pretty much the same thing before it was nerfed.

Pride.1734:

This skill is just as braindead as the condibunkers it counters. Nerf both.

I would be completely okay with this.

Diamond Skin is stupid, but it gives a way for Elementalists to beat pure condi (so usually condi-bunker) builds. That would pretty reliably beat any other Ele.

Conditions dealing high damage, while being very easy to apply with builds that have high toughness/vitality... yeah.
Only two (at most) of these things should be easily accessible to any one build:
Ease of applying the conditions
Survivability
Damage done by the conditions

There’s also the issue of cleanses, but they’re just a mess - a few builds can cleanse everything and then some, while others struggle to remove a single stack of burning. These really need to get brought closer together, along with less general condi-spam, so it can become an actual method of control/attrition rather than a set of effects that apply high control along with serious damage.

soooo i was playing against 2 ele earlier in soloQ and i notice they both use diamond skin rofl but it was perfect counter for me since i was playing condi engi that time, but when they lost enough life and my condi went through they die like flies, hence my team winning. cool story i know.

It’s a hard counter so it shouldn’t exist. Nerf the kittening trait like AR.

Having traits that counter other builds/professions are fun and good to have in the game. It adds an element of strategy into your preparation and counter preparation.

However, if the idea is to have combat based on SKILL… it’s never a good idea to have super hard counters…especially in just 1 trait.

Having a big advantage occasionally on a cooldown is fine…Having it via a passive skill 100% of the time is a poor decision.

The delta between this trait’s “usefulness” and “worthlessness” is way too big.

It hinders both the ele and condi classes and takes skill largely out of the equation.

Hence a lot of necros (the entire class can be a hard counter to the ele) cry about Diamond Skin being OP i tried out some builds as well.

First was 0/0/6/6/2 with all out healing power to keep the 90% treshold, that build one or two cant kill you, but your (I am D/D) lightning autoattacks hit for 700 , no crits at all, so you cant kill a necro with that. You could as well sit next to each other and do nothing ….. so boring.

So I tried something more offensive, since I am usually Full Zerker all out and well more adjusted to that gameplay (with full zerker I am able to kill a lot of necros cause Im faster than they proc their OP death shroud … good lord are they slow proccing that 10s CD insta-skill … being OP really makes you lazy):

6/2/6/0/0 Full Zerker , Runes Full Power as well, the idea behind was to block the intial fear of condi necros (cause usually they fear you, and kill you during the first fear if cleanse is on CD, if you cleanse it once they fear you again, you are then killed before being able to make first hit)
While this Build yielded still a lot of dmg, its defense is so weak, that even a Full Condition necro Autoattack delivers the 1300 dmg neccessary, once the treshold is hit you get spammed with conditions.
That Build worked quite well against the bad necros, the mediocre and good necros had their way around (flesh golem e.g.)
But at the same time I noticed every dmg point I was missing.

Ah yeah and in teamfights DS is indeed entirely usless.

The Result is I go back to 6/6/2/0/0, that way I am much more effective.
That way I kill >80% of other Elementalists >50% of the shatter mesmers , >60% of thieves(have my problem with the sword permainitiative perma evade ones though) , even a lot of necros and warriors.

cheese.4739:

Pride.1734:

This skill is just as braindead as the condibunkers it counters. Nerf both.

I would be completely okay with this.

Diamond Skin is stupid, but it gives a way for Elementalists to beat pure condi (so usually condi-bunker) builds. That would pretty reliably beat any other Ele.

Conditions dealing high damage, while being very easy to apply with builds that have high toughness/vitality… yeah.
Only two (at most) of these things should be easily accessible to any one build:
Ease of applying the conditions
Survivability
Damage done by the conditions

There’s also the issue of cleanses, but they’re just a mess – a few builds can cleanse everything and then some, while others struggle to remove a single stack of burning. These really need to get brought closer together, along with less general condi-spam, so it can become an actual method of control/attrition rather than a set of effects that apply high control along with serious damage.

Ele running diamond skin to beat a condition build is lame and pathetic. It isn’t an “advantage”, it is guaranteed 100-0 victory vs someone who might as well close down his game. That is the point.

Ele can beat condi class 1 on 1. Necro could beat ele 1 on 1 even back in the old days when ele was broken. You had a disadvantage, but if you outplayed hard enough then it COULD happen. Skill mattered. That is the thing

Lordrosicky.5813:

it is guaranteed 100-0 victory vs someone who might as well close down his game. That is the point.

In fact it is NOT.

1300 – 1800 direct dmg to an Elementalist is done by most classes just by taking a mere look in their direction.

Either you Spec enough into defenses and healing that the condition necro really doesnt get you below the 90% treshold, so that your attacks can be entirely ignored.
Thats a 100% draw then.

Or you make a more offensive build, but then even a condition necro should be able to bring up the 1300 dmg, so that saves you for lets say the first 3-5sec from the condition spamming.

nah with ele auras, protection, regen, and dem heals if a condi bunker gets the ele below 90% the ele just has to press F2 and he’s back above 90% before any condi bombs could be applied. That’s without even using heal skills. And if he’s using signet heal and constantly casting there’s really nothing a condi bunker can do.

I haven’t run into a lot of bunker eles yet, but the ones I have run into were surviving on point 1v3 including vs a DPS guardian, and they were doing significant damage as well.

Get yourself a parrot to do the direct dmg

I love the pure irony of a Condi complaining that an Ele is OP..

Dude.. if you’re specing 100% into ANYTHING you’re going to have a hard time killing certain builds.. You need to diversify your build and make it more variable.. If you can’t do 2k damage before condi spikes.. Seriously rethink your current build..

Aside from that.. The underpowered Ele class finally has a couple changes to make us viable.. Please don’t take this away from me =(

EDIT: I’ve noticed this argument is used alot.. a 100% ANYTHING should not be able to beat everything. A-Net does NOT want that, I would put serious money on that (at least $4.50)

OneManArmy.9732:

Uhtameit.2413:

OneManArmy.9732:

Lopez.7369:

It used to be that necromancers and engineers could do certain tricks to break through Diamond Skin, although it required some effort and a little luck. With the Signet of Restoration buff, it’s now impossible.

It’s not too bad because the build is rare, but, honestly, the trait shouldn’t exist in the first place.

My advice: Make the threshold 75 percent but make it only reduce condition durations by 50 percent.

signet of resto before patch – 156 hp/cast
after – 226 hp/cast.

wow. game breaking!

That’s not 18%.

kitten this forums bugs. ok , once more

gw2skills still not updated
176hp/cast with 10 in water
212hp/cast now 10 in water

100-100*176/212=16.98%

yes, definitely not 18%

Its actually 20,45% increase relative to 176 base… your calc would work if the base was 212 and went down to 176, than, it would be 16.98 decrease…

When I fight diamond skin ele at high ratings, I talk to them instead of fighting because it’s dumb. They always agree that it’s dumb.

Fix this stupid trait.

As someone who runs a diamond skin ele, I agree with most people in the terms of that it should be changed because of the passive gameplay. The boon converter idea above looks really nice, but until the mindless 12345 condibunker necros and engis get a nerf, this trait should stay as it is. Once the other 2 get shaved down, they are free to change the trait in whatever way anet feels like.

I don’t like the diamond skin mechanics in general, not because it’s in any way overpowered (it’s not), but because it’s gimmicky and not promoting the kind of gameplay anet should be after.

To address the OP, to deal with a build specifically set to counter you, you can either:
a. Roll over and die
b. Adjust your own build to deal with that possibility
c. Leave that ele to the rest of your team who should have no problems with it.

DS already has very limited viability so a direct nerf is the wrong way to do it. A redesign would be better.

Some builds are designed to counter others. Adapt or die.

cheese.4739:

Lopez.7369:

No, it’s impenetrable as any condition build. Double regeneration and Signet of Restoration completely outheal direct damage from condition builds.

1) Yes, there are ways to get through it. Time your Flesh Golem charge well, take Lich Form, use your Life Blast. Or don’t min/max your conditions/survivability – take Carrion instead of Settler’s amulet, or otherwise add some power damage.
2) If they weren’t running Diamond Skin, chances are you’d be roflstomping them instead. If you’re so heavily specced into condi that you can’t break their skin, you’re lethal to the majority of Ele builds – slightly less so post-feature-patch, but it still requires heavy trait investment for Eles not melt to heavy condition application. Learn to pick and choose your fights; you can probably still spam your scepter AAs at someone else.

Sorry for getting a bit snarky, but I’m really quite sick of full condi folks hating on Diamond Skin when it’s basically flipping the hard counter from you to them.

There should be no hard counter beside “excellent play/sound build design.” A single trait given to a low health profession that can endlessly keep propping up their health via merely attacking with any sort of heal is absurd. It is absurd for the same reasons people hated on warrior stances and automatic response. The OP has the right of it, these shouldn’t have ever existed.

azerte.4365:

As someone who runs a diamond skin ele, I agree with most people in the terms of that it should be changed because of the passive gameplay. The boon converter idea above looks really nice, but until the mindless 12345 condibunker necros and engis get a nerf, this trait should stay as it is. Once the other 2 get shaved down, they are free to change the trait in whatever way anet feels like.

This shows how entirely ill informed this post is;
All necro bleeds have been reduced to 2. No weapon/skill does more than 2 bleeds.
Fear has been nerfed
Poison duration shortened.

All other conditions they cast are from returning conditions back to their original caster or new target/or they’re the targets own boons corrupted.

All other conditions don’t do damage.

The only possible shave would be reduce necro bleeds to a single stack. The 6 stacks of bleed come from AA x3 +scepter+dagger (all of which are required to hit.) and can’t have their recharges reduced.

Don’t queue with 5 condi classes and a diamond skin ele won’t be able to solo your team.

^ truth ^

Pvp is fast becoming necros V necros. It’s just insane.

Condi Necros, the new hambow!

It is inded a terrible trait which leaves little room for counterplay. I suggest changing it to reduce the duration of applied conditions by 50% for 5 seconds after changing to earth attunement. This allows you to benefit from it even after you leave earth attunement, making it a flexible trait which plays well with the way an elementalist works a: Continouos attunement swapping.

Prysin.8542:

Aberrant.6749:

Prysin.8542:

Aberrant.6749:

Immunities/hard counters are bad for the game.

then please let us remove revealed from the game as it hardcounters stealth, berserker stance, cleansing ire, shadows rejuvenation, diamond skin, stability and let us not forget “evasion” skills…. or wasnt that what you meant?

You can only apply revealed to yourself (save one ranger skill).

Cleansing ire isn’t a hard counter nor immunity. If you blind them or dodge the f1 skill it doesn’t remove conds. That’s good, there is play/counterplay to that.

Not sure what shadow’s reju hard counters… it’s just hp while in stealth. Stealth isn’t the best thing to be relying on in PvP since you can’t hold or cap a point.

Stability can be stripped/corrupted.

I’ll just end this early and say you don’t understand what I mean if you think these types of things are involved or should be included.

Diamond skin can be countered by this really exciting new way of attacking people. Its called Direct damage. The way you do this is by wielding a weapon of sorts and smashing it into peoples faces. It make them cry a bit, and as their tears flow, diamond skin wears off.

IF you heard of it, try it. It will solve your problem entirely.

I see you still don’t understand my post or the situation….

CntrlAltDefeat.1465:

There should be no hard counter beside “excellent play/sound build design.” A single trait given to a low health profession that can endlessly keep propping up their health via merely attacking with any sort of heal is absurd. It is absurd for the same reasons people hated on warrior stances and automatic response. The OP has the right of it, these shouldn’t have ever existed.

This guy gets it. It’s a horrid way to balance and is poor/lazy game design which leads to less skilled gameplay.

Lopez.7369:

It used to be that necromancers and engineers could do certain tricks to break through Diamond Skin, although it required some effort and a little luck. With the Signet of Restoration buff, it’s now impossible.

It’s not too bad because the build is rare, but, honestly, the trait shouldn’t exist in the first place.

My advice: Make the threshold 75 percent but make it only reduce condition durations by 50 percent. Or redesign it altogether.

I simply do not understand this thinking at all. And I’m quite frankly amazed at how many people are agreeing with this post. Let me try and break down the reasons why this post is misguided, politely and rationally. I apologize in advance if I come off as rude or demeaning. I’m not trying to be, and I understand how frustrating pvp can be at times.

1. Elementalists, themselves, are naturally supposed to be the counter to conditions. They can trait to have (to my knowledge) more condi clears than any other class in the game. A trait like Diamond skin makes sense as far as an elementalist play style is concerned.

An important consequence which might arise if this trait is nerfed could be counters to condition build being non-existent or not very viable. As of now, people have got to be careful with their condition builds due to Elementalists who can burst them down significantly before them losing 10% hp. This keeps pure condition builds in check somewhat. If the trait is nerfed, the condition meta will be advanced even more.

It may be argued that Nerfing the trait only slightly (as you suggested) could fix the issue without making the trait overpowered. However there are two problems with this thinking. The first problem is that the trait simply isn’t overpowered as is. (Bear in mind I’m entirely expressing my opinion.) The second problem is that the trait would not be chosen if it were nerfed even slightly in the fashion you suggested. The simple truth is that 6 (or 30) in water would be more viable for removing conditions than 6 (30) in earth.

2. Following up the last point slightly, you’ve got to realize that Elementalists who choose to put 6 in earth are giving up a lot from other choices of traits. If they choose to still get Evasive Arcana grandmaster from the arcane trait line, they’ll have sacrificed the hp that water would provide, as well as losing the cool down reduction on cantrips, which are practically an Ele’s only means of survival.

3. You mentioned that Diamond skin paired with signet of restoration makes it impossible to break through, at least for a condition class. (Let’s not forget I already somewhat addressed pure condition specs in my first point.) You’ve failed to mention, however, that you shouldn’t be 1v1 against an elementalist. If you’re in spvp, or WvW, you should not be fighting alone. If you are, you might be doing something wrong. The simple truth is that Elementalists, especially those with 6 in earth, do not have much health. Usually they have about 15k. This means that once they lose 1500hp, they become your personal breakfast. To be honest, that’s one attack from any power build.

Another thing to consider is that an elementalist who has chosen signet of restoration and put 6 in earth will not have much condi cleanse. (If he’s dealing any kind of decent amount of damage) This means that, again, once you break through a measly 10% of his hp, he’s toast. This should not be difficult unless you’re a pure condition spec fighting alone against an elementalist. That scenario should never happen.

4. You’d be surprised how many Elementalists don’t choose diamond skin because they don’t think it’s worth it. In fact, most very skilled Elementalists I know don’t run diamond skin. That should tell you something. Diamond skin is good, and when the play style is mastered, it can be very advantageous. However, it’s not by any means the “meta” build, nor is it necessarily the most effective choice of build.

5. In summary, you’re giving too much credit to this trait. To get this immunity to conditions, you have to give up a hefty amount of condi cleanse, which, in turn, makes you very vulnerable to condi builds once any decent power build breaks through 1500hp.

@ MightyMicah I don’t mind if they are strong vs conditions. Immunity is just the wrong way to do it. Look at eng’s AR. That was the wrong way to do that trait. Dia skin needs a similar change and would be far better if it was a 50% reduction if the ele was above 85% (etc.).

Aberrant.6749:

@ MightyMicah I don’t mind if they are strong vs conditions. Immunity is just the wrong way to do it. Look at eng’s AR. That was the wrong way to do that trait. Dia skin needs a similar change and would be far better if it was a 50% reduction if the ele was above 85% (etc.).

Read through my whole post, bud. If you did a change like that, no one would choose the trait. It would be far more beneficial to drop 6 in water if you wanted to counter condi specs.

I did read the whole post, bud. It’s a poorly designed trait. People would still take it if they got the hp % on the reduction right. It’s also a passive, it should be a bit weaker than active cleansing to make up for that. Game design basics yo.

Aberrant.6749:

I did read the whole post, bud. It’s a poorly designed trait. People would still take it if they got the hp % on the reduction right. It’s also a passive, it should be a bit weaker than active cleansing to make up for that. Game design basics yo.

Right now we are just spewing opinions. At least try and back it up, mate. Why would people choose that trait? Condis can be constantly reapplied. Any kind of percent reduction would still be useless due to the low survivability and low condi removal that the Ele would have with a diamond skin spec.

I think the trait is just fine, and a very clever and well thought out mechanic by Anet.

Why choose something passive even though it’s slightly less optimal? Because it’s less work and easier to use than something active and you can be managing other things instead.

Game design basics.

Aberrant.6749:

Why choose something passive even though it’s slightly less optimal? Because it’s less work and easier to use than something active and you can be managing other things instead.

Game design basics.

So you feel that diamond skin takes no skill to use?

Less =/= no… but it’s too strong for how little skill it takes.

Aberrant.6749:

Less =/= no… but it’s too strong for how little skill it takes.

Gotcha, my bad on the clarity there. Now, just to be clear before I say anything further, have you played a diamond skin build yourself? And then compared it to other Ele builds?

(By the way I saw the video you had posted, and it was right on the money)

Yes I have. Ele is a lot of fun to play, my other main class is eng. Guess I’m an apm addict lol.

I took down the vid before because it confuses people quite often, glad you understood ^^

Aberrant.6749:

Yes I have. Ele is a lot of fun to play, my other main class is eng. Guess I’m an apm addict lol.

I took down the vid before because it confuses people quite often, glad you understood ^^

Well then you have my respect. I guess it just comes down to opinion. I’m just glad you’re not another Necro mad that his pure condi spec isn’t working :P

Lol nah, I don’t look at things from that POV. I don’t want a class that I play to be too strong nor too weak. It’s less fun for everyone in both cases. I just want things to be well designed and well balanced for the health of the overall game… like runes of balth need a small nerf despite that would lower the damage of my eng.

when they nerf all condi bunkers they ll become free to do with DS whatever they want.
yes. trait design not good at all. but condi bunker meta is worse.
nerf condi – nerf ds.
oh yeah, if they nerf DS in any way they ll just make it useless. hm…I mean even more useless than now

CntrlAltDefeat.1465:

azerte.4365:

As someone who runs a diamond skin ele, I agree with most people in the terms of that it should be changed because of the passive gameplay. The boon converter idea above looks really nice, but until the mindless 12345 condibunker necros and engis get a nerf, this trait should stay as it is. Once the other 2 get shaved down, they are free to change the trait in whatever way anet feels like.

This shows how entirely ill informed this post is;
All necro bleeds have been reduced to 2. No weapon/skill does more than 2 bleeds.
Fear has been nerfed
Poison duration shortened.

All other conditions they cast are from returning conditions back to their original caster or new target/or they’re the targets own boons corrupted.

All other conditions don’t do damage.

The only possible shave would be reduce necro bleeds to a single stack. The 6 stacks of bleed come from AA x3 +scepter+dagger (all of which are required to hit.) and can’t have their recharges reduced.

Maybe necro is not so heavily the case although I still see some people coming up to me spamming 2345 on staff and then proceeding to AA in scepter, I may have exaggerated a bit . Engis on the other hand have gone out of control when it comes to condispam.