This thread is nearly off topic, because guildwars 2 in it’s actual state is a team-based game and has absolutely nothing to do with 1v1 (not balanced around it, no modes in it etc.). Absolutely no sense what I read here.
It isn’t done because it cant be done. What would happen is it would become fairly apparent, fairly quickly that a particular class with X spec is the best 1on1, and its that or bust.
Also the game is conquest, 5vs5. Not 1on1 duels. So, its a 5on5 conquest ladder.
edit: however one issue with ladder is lumps solo quers, and teams together.
This thread is nearly off topic, because guildwars 2 in it’s actual state is a team-based game and has absolutely nothing to do with 1v1 (not balanced around it, no modes in it etc.). Absolutely no sense what I read here.
There’s no reason why you can’t introduce a nice 1v1 mode with rankings. Merely pointing to an existing system as “proof” that GW2 is a team game is flawed because we’re talking about changing the existing system.
We make of GW2 what we want to make of it. If you like teams, then by all means go ahead and join one. No one’s stopping you. But there’s no need to ignore those of us who don’t like to cooperate with other people.
What would happen is it would become fairly apparent, fairly quickly that a particular class with X spec is the best 1on1, and its that or bust.
Excellent. And this will provide solid data for what needs a nerf and what needs to be buffed. Also you’ll find that every build will have a counter. So if there are too many bunkers, you’ll quickly see bunker countering classes like necros and burst professions take over.
This will force people to run innovative and balanced builds.
1vs1 balance is less attainable than team balance, therefore 1vs1 ladder would mean even less.
No game, with the sort of skill diversity you find in an mmo can balance properly for 1on1. Heck even games like dota 2, league of legends, etc, are not balanced for 1vs1.
If you don’t like to co operate with other s, that’s fine, they should introduce a solo q. But it would still be 5vs5 conquest. If you really want 1on1, then maybe a fps or something is right for you.
1vs1 balance is less attainable than team balance, therefore 1vs1 ladder would mean even less.
No game, with the sort of skill diversity you find in an mmo can balance properly for 1on1. Heck even games like dota 2, league of legends, etc, are not balanced for 1vs1.
If you don’t like to co operate with other s, that’s fine, they should introduce a solo q. But it would still be 5vs5 conquest. If you really want 1on1, then maybe a fps or something is right for you.
But most esports games, are teamsports games.
If you balance for 1v1, 5v5 is automatically balanced. But in any case, a class should be able to spec either for dueling or teamwork. That’s what traits are for after all. No class is slotted into just one role.
I think dueling mode would be the best thing to happen for PvP. You’ll have people really wracking their heads trying to use innovative trait line combos for countering the current “meta”.
1vs1 balance is less attainable than team balance, therefore 1vs1 ladder would mean even less.
No game, with the sort of skill diversity you find in an mmo can balance properly for 1on1. Heck even games like dota 2, league of legends, etc, are not balanced for 1vs1.
If you don’t like to co operate with other s, that’s fine, they should introduce a solo q. But it would still be 5vs5 conquest. If you really want 1on1, then maybe a fps or something is right for you.
But most esports games, are teamsports games.
If you balance for 1v1, 5v5 is automatically balanced. But in any case, a class should be able to spec either for dueling or teamwork. That’s what traits are for after all. No class is slotted into just one role.
I think dueling mode would be the best thing to happen for PvP. You’ll have people really wracking their heads trying to use innovative trait line combos for countering the current “meta”.
IF you balance for 1on1 , IF. It cant be done. Never has been done successfully ever, in the history of any mmo EVER. its a pipe dream. You might as well ask them to allow us to play on pluto.
well if we could play on pluto that would be cool. Ya, it would be cool. But it cant be done.
Additionally, in a team environment people will find ways to min/max sacrificing 1vs1 power for team utility. So EVEN if you could achieve 1vs1 balance -which you cant- people still wound min/max with abilities in ways that would make them better at teamfights and worse at 1on1.
I dont agree with the duel ranking.I think duels must a fun mode only.But i would like to see some more rewards on individual efforts.Since theres a soloq choice shouldnt be so unfair.It was better when you couldnt join solo in Paid tournaments
1vs1 balance is less attainable than team balance, therefore 1vs1 ladder would mean even less.
No game, with the sort of skill diversity you find in an mmo can balance properly for 1on1. Heck even games like dota 2, league of legends, etc, are not balanced for 1vs1.
If you don’t like to co operate with other s, that’s fine, they should introduce a solo q. But it would still be 5vs5 conquest. If you really want 1on1, then maybe a fps or something is right for you.
But most esports games, are teamsports games.
If you balance for 1v1, 5v5 is automatically balanced. But in any case, a class should be able to spec either for dueling or teamwork. That’s what traits are for after all. No class is slotted into just one role.
I think dueling mode would be the best thing to happen for PvP. You’ll have people really wracking their heads trying to use innovative trait line combos for countering the current “meta”.
IF you balance for 1on1 , IF. It cant be done. Never has been done successfully ever, in the history of any mmo EVER. its a pipe dream. You might as well ask them to allow us to play on pluto.
well if we could play on pluto that would be cool. Ya, it would be cool. But it cant be done.
Additionally, in a team environment people will find ways to min/max sacrificing 1vs1 power for team utility. So EVEN if you could achieve 1vs1 balance -which you cant- people still wound min/max with abilities in ways that would make them better at teamfights and worse at 1on1.
I don’t agree with you that it can’t be done. Unless you show proof that this is the case, it’s just an assertion you make. And what does it mean “you can’t balance 1v1” anyway? Are you saying there will always be a dominant class that can’t be beaten? That’s not true. There is a counter for every build in existence. Even eles and guardians.
So what can I say? I have to disagree with you that 1v1 cannot be balanced.
As for sacrificing 1v1 utility for team use…what’s the problem? Let them.
1vs1 balance is less attainable than team balance, therefore 1vs1 ladder would mean even less.
No game, with the sort of skill diversity you find in an mmo can balance properly for 1on1. Heck even games like dota 2, league of legends, etc, are not balanced for 1vs1.
If you don’t like to co operate with other s, that’s fine, they should introduce a solo q. But it would still be 5vs5 conquest. If you really want 1on1, then maybe a fps or something is right for you.
But most esports games, are teamsports games.
If you balance for 1v1, 5v5 is automatically balanced. But in any case, a class should be able to spec either for dueling or teamwork. That’s what traits are for after all. No class is slotted into just one role.
I think dueling mode would be the best thing to happen for PvP. You’ll have people really wracking their heads trying to use innovative trait line combos for countering the current “meta”.
IF you balance for 1on1 , IF. It cant be done. Never has been done successfully ever, in the history of any mmo EVER. its a pipe dream. You might as well ask them to allow us to play on pluto.
well if we could play on pluto that would be cool. Ya, it would be cool. But it cant be done.
Additionally, in a team environment people will find ways to min/max sacrificing 1vs1 power for team utility. So EVEN if you could achieve 1vs1 balance -which you cant- people still wound min/max with abilities in ways that would make them better at teamfights and worse at 1on1.
I don’t agree with you that it can’t be done. Unless you show proof that this is the case, it’s just an assertion you make. And what does it mean “you can’t balance 1v1” anyway? Are you saying there will always be a dominant class that can’t be beaten? That’s not true. There is a counter for every build in existence. Even eles and guardians.
So what can I say? I have to disagree with you that 1v1 cannot be balanced.
As for sacrificing 1v1 utility for team use…what’s the problem? Let them.
You can’t prove a negative. But you are asscerting a positive. So the burden of proof lays with you. So name 1 mmo, or moba, with 1vs1 balance. wow? no. warhammer? no. Rift? no. League of legends(the biggest esports game in the world by a mile)? no. Dota 2? No. Yet several of those games are successful esports where people make serious money playing them.
So i’m going on precedent, taking the fact that its never been done as evidence it can’t be done. And yes, no particular build would be unbeatable. The issue is that in 1on1 its as much about rock paper scissors as it is about skill. If you happen to fight a reasonably equally skilled player running a build that counters yours, you lose. That happens less in teamfights, as you have more versatility due to your teammates.
This is the crucial point, 5vs5 tournaments demonstrate at a higher level of accuracy which team is stronger than 1vs1 demonstrating who is the better player.
So name 1 mmo with 1on1 balance. (assuming build diversity, not a game with exact or nearly exact mirrors).
And this still wouldn’t solve the min/maxing problem. Where people trade of individual power for group utility.
1vs1 cant be balanced without mirroring. (ie making everything the same). I’m not saying any particular spec will beat every other spec. I’m saying that a ladder is designed to express skill as a variable, and it does that more proficiently with team games as individual rock paper scissors issues wash out by compensatory teammates. (As an aside that’s the big issue with this ladder lumping in solo quers and premade players-it means less of the variable of skill is being expressed).
Now as opposed to 1vs1 matchups, depending on class and spec any particular match may be a fordrawn conclusion as long as the two players are in the same ballpark of skill. This means that skill gets expressed LESS in 1on1 matchups than teamfights expressing teamskill. hence team games are better suited for a ladder.
That’s as easily as i can explain it. YOu still have yet to provide an example of a single diverse build game with 1on1 balance. If you cant , your asking the devs to do something not yet done in the history of gaming successfully-that in my opinion makes it a candidate for being an unreasonable request.
Regardless i am done with this conversation. As its obviously not going anywhere.
The issue is that in 1on1 its as much about rock paper scissors as it is about skill. If you happen to fight a reasonably equally skilled player running a build that counters yours, you lose.
Exactly. And this will motivate people to come up balanced builds that can cater to many more situations. This is exactly what we need right now.
Btw, merely because there’s a “can’t” in the sentence doesn’t mean I’m asking you to prove a negative. There is no “absence of evidence” = “evidence of absence” conundrum to solve here. “Proving a negative” means something completely different from what you seem to think it means. For example, I can prove conclusively that root 2 is not a rational number. Saying “root 2 is not rational” is not a “negative statement”.
Just saying.
All this is besides the point. The fact is that a rock paper scissors outcome will force people to run balanced builds instead of risk losing 1/3rd of their games to counter builds instead.
When most professions haven’t even explored the full usage of all their trait lines, there’s plenty of scope for innovation that will only occur in 1v1s. This is because a team fight hides your weaknesses and allows you to get away with much more. No such luck in 1v1s.
I don’t understand. You’re making a lot of unfounded assertions here. Are all the Mortal Kombat characters “the same” and do they have the same skills? The fact that GW2 is played with a lot of people doesn’t mean that they can’t be played alone. There can be so much build diversity that I’m willing to bet most balanced builds haven’t even been discovered.
So no – you don’t need mirroring.
I don’t “want the developers to do something never done before”. It’s not that big a deal as you say it is. Like I mentioned, 1v1s have been going on for a long time putting paid to your assertion that it’s impossible. I’ve had great fights with all classes and many diverse builds. So whether you like it or not, it’s a reality.
Mortal combat doesn’t have build diversity…
All scorpions are the same, he cant move stats around, change up his gear or abilities, etc etc.
Anyways, getting sucked into a whirlpool waste of time conversation. good luck to your ambitions sir.
What can I say? Only that people have been happily 1v1’ing for months now without it becoming a rock paper scissors contest. Formalize it and you enrich the game that will have ramifications on all other aspects of the game.
Also, assuming a static rock paper scissors scenario implies that you think there is just one static Nash equilibrium for the entire set of classes and builds. Given the mind bogglingly large number of possible combinations, I think this is highly unlikely and even if so, would take several decades for the possibilities to be fleshed out and stabilized.
In short, any “rock paper scissors” scenario will be quickly disrupted by a new build. In fact, the data from duels will provide solid info to the developers to further zone in on what needs to be buffed/nerfed in the future since it’s an ongoing process.
I’m sorry, but I see nothing but good stuff coming from a 1v1 mode.
Mortal combat doesn’t have build diversity…
All scorpions are the same, he cant move stats around, change up his gear or abilities, etc etc.
Anyways, getting sucked into a unproductive conversation. good luck to your ambitions sir.
To continue on this train of thought, a simple “rock paper scissors” set up consists of only three possible combinations and interactions. If you take the build diversity possible in GW2 today, you’ll quickly see that the permutations of possible build interactions escalates exponentially.
Basically to recreate a rock paper scissors scenario with 20 builds having the same probability of overcoming every other…is so absurd, it would take supercomputers of epic power to achieve such a scenario.
In other words, the outcome you fear most – rock paper scissors – requires superhuman computing to create. People don’t realize how difficult it is to deliberately create a rock paper scissors outcome in any situation of even medium complexity.
In reality there will be no such outcome. Don’t worry. 1v1s will not spoil anything.
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