Guild Wars 2

Banishing the forum bug.

Soryuju.8164:

Post some footage from ranked play with some of these builds, then, and demonstrate how they counter the builds currently at the top of competitive play (or fill the same roles more effectively). If you’re going to make a claim like that, then the burden of proof is on you. But keep in mind, there are lots of players who actually want to play their core specs, and players who are forced to because they didn’t purchase HoT. Support for these specs hasn’t disappeared in the way you’re suggesting.

From my perspective, though, Condition Necro seems like a really bad idea in such a CC-heavy meta, considering the core Necro’s famous weakness to CC of all types. If Reaper’s Shroud didn’t offer an excellent source of continuous Stability, I don’t imagine you’d see nearly as many in high-level play. Many Guardian mains tried Bunker Guard shortly before the Pro Leagues started and got obliterated by this meta’s unique combination of unblockable attacks, boon-stripping, condition spam, and chain CC. And as mentioned above, core Ele actually has seen play at the top level, but its representation has been minimal and more teams are moving away from it as time passes. The new levels of pressure introduced with HoT don’t allow it to have the same staying power that it used to.

If you take a look at the Necro and put it in a bubble. It has the power to beat mesmers and Revs in a 1v1. Put it in a team fight it can get focused down. That’s all well and good.

Now put that Necro in this meta, with the specs that you complain about, the CC that you say is bad and the support that you say is too much, all of sudden you have a class that can stay alive in the team fight, just by the virtue of his teammates. This is the thing that people are being too blind to see, the necro doesn’t need to be self-sufficient in this meta if you know how to play as a team. And it’s not about replacing a role but rather, completely making invalid, the existence of a current one. That’s what condi Revs did to both DHs and Power Revs. And that’s what a good base Necro can do.

In reply to your “prove it!” comment. I say, go figure it out yourself, I personally won’t tell you how to do it. I’m just here to inform you that there is a solution to your problem, you just have to be looking for the solution in the first place.

And I wouldn’t play base Condi Guard against Condi Revs and Necros. Medi guard seems more like they can put up a fight against condi revs than, Condi Guard can and possibly, even against Condi Necros.

I don’t think I’d reccomend playing base condi necro in pvp. Yes it has the potential to have far more boon corruption and burst pressure than condi reaper (from having both spite and curses), but its sustained pressure is very much lacking without deathly chill, and its generally easier to train down in teamfights. So more risk for a sitautionally different reward.

And even when you take that all away condi rev is better because shiro lets it zip around the map way faster.

nearlight.3064:

I don’t think I’d reccomend playing base condi necro in pvp. Yes it has the potential to have far more boon corruption and burst pressure than condi reaper (from having both spite and curses), but its sustained pressure is very much lacking without deathly chill, and its generally easier to train down in teamfights. So more risk for a sitautionally different reward.

And even when you take that all away condi rev is better because shiro lets it zip around the map way faster.

The slowness of the Necro actually works to it’s advantage (and so does this slow kill meta) because the Necro can come in when people have used a lot of their cooldowns, “turn down for what” a Rev before he can even blink and all of a sudden, the mobility of the Rev doesn’t matter. Just like portal doesn’t matter as proven by several bunker mesmers.

If you’re not willing to show proof for the “sheep” that you’re looking down on, you’re not any more a part of the solution than they are. You’re the one making claims here, and if you’re not going to back them up with any evidence, you’re just theorycrafting. There’s nothing wrong with theorycrafting, but you don’t get to act superior when you’re not doing anything differently from any of the rest of us.

I don’t intend to make a claim for Burn Guard’s viability in this meta, though I will say that it actually does fare decently against Condi Reapers. They can’t cleanse in Shroud, you don’t run with that many boons for them to corrupt (mostly just Fury, a few from Virtues, and Contemplation of Purity’s buffs), and it’s pretty easy to bait their limited transfers. You also benefit from your team’s heavy CC and condi spam.

Soryuju.8164:

If you’re not willing to show proof for the “sheep” that you’re looking down on.

Go watch my videos then or watch me when I stream. And I hate to look down on people, which is why I said we rather than you because I know that I am also forced to play the Meta specs because no one wants to believe in trying to counter.

mallyx/shiro viper Rev is completely dictating the whole meta atm:

- Has insane condi-dmg, but is itself almost immune to it -> best “counter” to condi-rev is condi-rev itself, so every team runs at least 1, most run 2.
- Mass Resistance of the rev’s kills all other condi-builds.
- Ele’s are forced to use Diamond Skin, which kills even more builds when each team has ~3 chars completely immune to conditions. Ele’s are also needed to support the revs and cleanse conditions of the few builds that aren’t completely immune to them.
- Bunker-Mesmer is so ridiculous that ppl run it as bunkery as possible so it will survive with ele-support. The Quickness/Invul-Rezzes are also a necessity against the revs with their insane cleave and on-demand quickness+stabi-stomps.

In random solo-Q it’s even more disgusting, since often the little bit of physial DMG needed to tip the scale against Diamond skin isn’t there (bad team-comps and sometimes bad play) and ppl don’t chain-stun or strip Resistance off the Revs. So I’ve had quite a few games where nothing really went below 90% HP cuz everything had diamond-skin, Resistance etc.
And I’m not talking amber league, I’m currently ruby with solo-Q playing against ESL-caliber players.

Both the constant resistance and diamond skin are things that are by design doomed to completely fail, it’s beyond me how ANet doesn’t see that.

Chaith.8256:

Every pip farm team, every ESL team, all will slowly change their comps toward using double Bunker Chrono / Double Revenant, with small personalizations of course.

Even The Abjured?

Dirame.8521:

nearlight.3064:

I don’t think I’d reccomend playing base condi necro in pvp. Yes it has the potential to have far more boon corruption and burst pressure than condi reaper (from having both spite and curses), but its sustained pressure is very much lacking without deathly chill, and its generally easier to train down in teamfights. So more risk for a sitautionally different reward.

And even when you take that all away condi rev is better because shiro lets it zip around the map way faster.

The slowness of the Necro actually works to it’s advantage (and so does this slow kill meta) because the Necro can come in when people have used a lot of their cooldowns, “turn down for what” a Rev before he can even blink and all of a sudden, the mobility of the Rev doesn’t matter. Just like portal doesn’t matter as proven by several bunker mesmers.

I don’t want to go back to yet another period where necromancers aren’t intrinsically strong in of themselves, but rather strong because they can corrupt boon spam the overpowered boonspammers. Its more anti-meta gameplay that the class has only really ever been able to fulfill, until reaper came along, but now that the meta everywhere else has boiled down to even more broken cheese, that doesn’t matter as much.

Still I always knew that spite/curses would be needed to get kitten done. Playing reaper with much lower amounts of boon strip just started to feel “off” when the boonspammers became more frequent. And I’d be okay with this if necromancer’s weren’t bound by soul reaping for vital persistance and life force generation and soul marks, which we’ll need to break through all the echos of memory and crystalline hibernations out there.

You could very well be right. But I hope you’re not.

I stopped reading at “Dragonhunters are fine; even a bit weak”

morrolan.9608:

Chaith.8256:

Every pip farm team, every ESL team, all will slowly change their comps toward using double Bunker Chrono / Double Revenant, with small personalizations of course.

Even The Abjured?

Rumor time: Chaith on his stream this past saturday (or was it friday?) said that they’d been practicing other things. Like that he was practicing rev, and that nos was practicing DH and bunker chrono, and well phanta and toker already have played rev, with phanta swithcing off to condi rev last week..

Terrorsquad.4802:

I stopped reading at “Dragonhunters are fine; even a bit weak”

They would be strong in another meta, but against 2 condi rev’s, 1-2 chronobunkers and maybe ele/druid/engi, they just do nothing at all. Absolutely useless tbh.

messiah.1908:

what i think funny is when guard and ele took the role of semi bunker/support it was fine but when mesmer took this role is wrong and op

You’re playing the victim no-one thought bunker ele and guard were fine.

PowerBottom.5796:

Terrorsquad.4802:

I stopped reading at “Dragonhunters are fine; even a bit weak”

They would be strong in another meta, but against 2 condi rev’s, 1-2 chronobunkers and maybe ele/druid/engi, they just do nothing at all. Absolutely useless tbh.

Oooh, guess they realised just putting all traps at once doesn’t work xD

No but seriously, its broken. I’m laughing my kitten off in SoloQ while playing it.

Terrorsquad.4802:

I stopped reading at “Dragonhunters are fine; even a bit weak”

Once you avoid their traps they are not OP.

Salamander.2504:

Sunshine.5014:

Bunker mesmer is fine. They just need to make some of the invul from Mesmer removes point capture contribution. It makes no sense to spam invul and still keep the point.

F4 does remove point capture, and shield 4 can be interrupted. That leaves what I think you’re referring to, which is sword 2 in addition to well of precog that is a 3s aoe evade on a kitten CD. Meh, I think they are fine. If you have access to an unblockable interrupt, usually interrupting shield 4 can secure a down on a mesmer.

I must correct that you need an unblockable interrupt without having Lightning Rod traited. L-Rod will proc before the cc, allowing it to be blocked, evaded and not benefit from the damage increase portion of Tempest Defense. So the unblockable interrupt will refresh Déjà Vu even though said unblockable CC was the only thing aimed at the chronomancer.

Terrorsquad.4802:

PowerBottom.5796:

Terrorsquad.4802:

I stopped reading at “Dragonhunters are fine; even a bit weak”

They would be strong in another meta, but against 2 condi rev’s, 1-2 chronobunkers and maybe ele/druid/engi, they just do nothing at all. Absolutely useless tbh.

Oooh, guess they realised just putting all traps at once doesn’t work xD

No but seriously, its broken. I’m laughing my kitten off in SoloQ while playing it.

- The Rev’s don’t care about the traps with all their evades and stability and will eat DH within seconds.
- Bunker-Chrono also doesn’t give a flying fart; also tons of stability and invul.
- Most Ele builds don’t care either, they survive a trap-burst and deny pressure with reflects/absorbs.

If the meta would look like the one a few weeks ago with necro’s, maybe only 1 non-condi-rev, no chrono-bunkers etc, it would still be strong, but against the current ESL-comps, DH is just not the strongest choice.

Aereniel.7356

Just stop it ANet, pretty please.

Be careful of what you’re wishing for, they’ll just up end Boon Smiting everything.

Dirame.8521:

Soryuju.8164:

If you’re not willing to show proof for the “sheep” that you’re looking down on.

Go watch my videos then or watch me when I stream. And I hate to look down on people, which is why I said we rather than you because I know that I am also forced to play the Meta specs because no one wants to believe in trying to counter.

You do realise you are not making sense right?

→ makes claim that non-elite specs can counter meta
→ doesnt prove it
→ says he can’t prove it because he’s ‘forced’ to play meta specs because no one wants to believe
→ logic???

For one, d/d ele gets destroyed in this meta. So does classic bunker guard. period

Thief > Bunker Mesmer/Condi Rev
#TokerGod420

ReaperJr.5967:

Dirame.8521:

Soryuju.8164:

If you’re not willing to show proof for the “sheep” that you’re looking down on.

Go watch my videos then or watch me when I stream. And I hate to look down on people, which is why I said we rather than you because I know that I am also forced to play the Meta specs because no one wants to believe in trying to counter.

You do realise you are not making sense right?

-> makes claim that non-elite specs can counter meta
-> doesnt prove it
-> says he can’t prove it because he’s ‘forced’ to play meta specs because no one wants to believe
-> logic???

For one, d/d ele gets destroyed in this meta. So does classic bunker guard. period

Actually he’s specifically mentioning spite/curses (and probably soul reaping) necromancer with most likely wanderer’s amulet.

The problem with reaper is that reaper itself does not give any boon removal/corruption in of itself like traits from curses and spite do. However as a necroamancer in pvp, pretty much all non-minion builds are forced into soul reaping for soul marks and vital persistence to have enough sustain and life force to make it work, which means you have to give up a huge source of pressure or reaper.

If you give up reaper you can be trained down quite easily due to no stability but your burst pressure vs. revs/mesmer/tempestsafterDS/druids is much higher. You’d also lose sustained damage pressure from deathly chill, but running spite/curses reaper is simply a waste because condi reaper without soulreaping for VP/SM will be completely unable to manage life force which means less mightstacks from shroud and less corruption bursting people with path of corruption.

I hope this clarified the confusion but I think its worth looking into, since reaper feels like its missing something when boon removal is the biggest solution to taking down the bunker mes/condi rev meta.

nearlight.3064:

ReaperJr.5967:

Dirame.8521:

Soryuju.8164:

If you’re not willing to show proof for the “sheep” that you’re looking down on.

Go watch my videos then or watch me when I stream. And I hate to look down on people, which is why I said we rather than you because I know that I am also forced to play the Meta specs because no one wants to believe in trying to counter.

You do realise you are not making sense right?

-> makes claim that non-elite specs can counter meta
-> doesnt prove it
-> says he can’t prove it because he’s ‘forced’ to play meta specs because no one wants to believe
-> logic???

For one, d/d ele gets destroyed in this meta. So does classic bunker guard. period

Actually he’s specifically mentioning spite/curses (and probably soul reaping) necromancer with most likely wanderer’s amulet.

The problem with reaper is that reaper itself does not give any boon removal/corruption in of itself like traits from curses and spite do. However as a necroamancer in pvp, pretty much all non-minion builds are forced into soul reaping for soul marks and vital persistence to have enough sustain and life force to make it work, which means you have to give up a huge source of pressure or reaper.

If you give up reaper you can be trained down quite easily due to no stability but your burst pressure vs. revs/mesmer/tempestsafterDS/druids is much higher. You’d also lose sustained damage pressure from deathly chill, but running spite/curses reaper is simply a waste because condi reaper without soulreaping for VP/SM will be completely unable to manage life force which means less mightstacks from shroud and less corruption bursting people with path of corruption.

I hope this clarified the confusion but I think its worth looking into, since reaper feels like its missing something when boon removal is the biggest solution to taking down the bunker mes/condi rev meta.

If you look at his previous posts in this thread, you’ll see what I mean.

ReaperJr.5967:

nearlight.3064:

ReaperJr.5967:

Dirame.8521:

Soryuju.8164:

If you’re not willing to show proof for the “sheep” that you’re looking down on.

Go watch my videos then or watch me when I stream. And I hate to look down on people, which is why I said we rather than you because I know that I am also forced to play the Meta specs because no one wants to believe in trying to counter.

You do realise you are not making sense right?

-> makes claim that non-elite specs can counter meta
-> doesnt prove it
-> says he can’t prove it because he’s ‘forced’ to play meta specs because no one wants to believe
-> logic???

For one, d/d ele gets destroyed in this meta. So does classic bunker guard. period

Actually he’s specifically mentioning spite/curses (and probably soul reaping) necromancer with most likely wanderer’s amulet.

The problem with reaper is that reaper itself does not give any boon removal/corruption in of itself like traits from curses and spite do. However as a necroamancer in pvp, pretty much all non-minion builds are forced into soul reaping for soul marks and vital persistence to have enough sustain and life force to make it work, which means you have to give up a huge source of pressure or reaper.

If you give up reaper you can be trained down quite easily due to no stability but your burst pressure vs. revs/mesmer/tempestsafterDS/druids is much higher. You’d also lose sustained damage pressure from deathly chill, but running spite/curses reaper is simply a waste because condi reaper without soulreaping for VP/SM will be completely unable to manage life force which means less mightstacks from shroud and less corruption bursting people with path of corruption.

I hope this clarified the confusion but I think its worth looking into, since reaper feels like its missing something when boon removal is the biggest solution to taking down the bunker mes/condi rev meta.

If you look at his previous posts in this thread, you’ll see what I mean.

Well 1/3 base specs having a possible specific niche isn’t a bad estimation.

Though yeah, tempest with shout runes/torrents/diamond skin counters condi rev’s condition pressure as good as a shoutguard could, its just that they do more than just condi pressure. In a way scrapper has absorbed the old role of the D/D ele (side point 1v1 hero and high sustain and cleave damage in teamfights) and if those two roles aren’t enough to counter this cancer meta, then we have a problem.

At least base necromancer is still worth looking into. If a team babysits it like crazy, since god knows its so easy to focus fire out of existence despite all the boons it can strip, it could provide something we’ve been needing. Maybe a come back of cele signets? I don’t know but wanderer’s with signets and curses and soul reaping doesn’t seem all that bad at all when you don’t have three people wailing on you.

The moment you guys realise that 80% of meta builds die from condi spam, Where in most cases its the only way to win vs them.

With reapers and dh gone i will be king of pvp on my maruder engi :P, problem is there are still many ppl playing dh, and thier CC is kittening insane…

Mefiq.7039:

The moment you guys realise that 80% of meta builds die from condi spam, Where in most cases its the only way to win vs them.

With reapers and dh gone i will be king of pvp on my maruder engi :P, problem is there are still many ppl playing dh, and thier CC is kittening insane…

Until you realize every team runs a tempest which makes condi almost irrelevant unless you have insane application like Malyx revenants.