Guild Wars 2

ArenaNet please read. This is not just a rant, I have ideas to help:

It has taken sPvP in GW2 a long time to stabilize By “stabilize” I mean being able to depend on the matchmaking to do a half way decent job at putting us in teams with players of similar skill running proven builds. Similar skill + proven build for all players put’s both teams on a even playing field. This is required for small team, tactical PvP. When the balance is greatly upset the games become pointless and people walk away. Many forever. That’s not their poor attitude, that’s the reality that they are wasting their time because matches are no longer about skill.

So what’s the problem?

If what we’re seeing in PvP in BWE#3 is any indicator of what we’ll get at launch, the problem is the Elite Specs. There are two dangers with elite specs that could destroy sPvP in GW2.

1.) You have people testing out new builds. So the players we are getting grouped with in pug matches may be testing out new builds. Of course this is a problem because the player testing the new build is not proficient with what they are testing and they have chosen to make their test happen at a unranked pug teams expensive. This dynamic completely negatives the benefit of the new matchmaking routine. The last news from ANet regarding how many times a player has played on a specific class being used in matchmaking process was that it’s not used anymore at all. Even if it is on, it’s critical that the “times played on class” protion of matchmaking considers the Elite Specs separate from the base class they came from.

2) Some classes are OP to the point that there is no fun to be had. While I’m not sure what new classes are doing this, in every game I played today I had Chronomancers stacking interrupts as necro/reaper stacked conditions. This was not a zerg group, just two on two scenario in Conquest. I tag target, teleport in and IMMEDIATElY find myself immobilized, interrupted so I can pop no skills as the stack of conditions hills me within 5 seconds (as I’m still being interrupted of course).

Ok, so the condition stacking + interrupt mechanic works. The problem with this is it doesn’t appear very difficult to make this happen in a pug team however the counter for it would require coordinated effort beyond pug. Think about the consequences of that. You’re going to turned unranked into being all about who can pop interrupts and stack conditions first and that’s going to be what every game is about. You’ll have 2-3 classes in PvP and that’s it. That will happen because those of us willing to pick up a pug want to win enough we’ll swap off to whatever is going to make the game fair. Well players shouldn’t have to sacrifice all but two or three classes in order to stand a chance of winning a PvP game in a PUG.

Some suggestions:
1. Not only revamp pre-made / pug matchmaking, but also make it incorporate how many times a player has played on a class. Treat elite specs as new classes for matchmaking purposes.

2. Lock Elite specs out of all Ranked matches for several weeks after HoT’s release. This games some time for balancing which statistically will happen, it keeps ranked games clean and competitive

3. Provide checkbox option for players when queuing for Unranked PvP to have “don’t match with elite specializations” checkbox. that prevents us from having to deal with these scenarios. Within a few months after the Elite Specs have had some time to settle and meta builds for them have risen up you can remove the “don’t match with elite specs” option.

At the start of HoT we will probably get Leagues and that means a leaderboard reset and a race to Legendary rank. So at the start, everyone will be on the same level and thing are going to get really crazy in that time regardless of what Anet does.

It will be rather chaotic the first month after expansion hits.
But I am fine with that. Players need new shiny stuff to keep their interest in the game.
We can talk about balance etc after it settles down.

No these are terrible ideas. Lock people out? That’s ridiculous. Just because you don’t know how to counter people doesn’t mean others don’t. That’s part of the skill of the game.

Lol… I wonder how many new players I would cause to rage quit if it forced me into matches with them on my Reaper…

uhohhotdog.3598:

No these are terrible ideas. Lock people out? That’s ridiculous. Just because you don’t know how to counter people doesn’t mean others don’t. That’s part of the skill of the game.

No the players will not be locked out just the players Elite Speced characters. It’s very clear several (if not all) of the Elite specs are over powered in PvP. The over powered aspect of an Elite spec is really no different than a bug in the game. So allowing players to bring these professions into ranked matches is essentially allowing players to exploit a bug (cheat) and win matches. The only people in favor of not doing what I’m suggesting are those who don’t really care about the competitive side of the game, they just want to utilize the exploit of the OP elite for a little fun and then leave.

For competitive ranked play, it’s critical to have balance or it’s a complete waste of time. If the only balance is Reapers and Chronomasters dominating everything because they are OP then you’ll see only those professions in ranked PvP. I’ve played though the OP balancing so far You could say “well this happen with D/D Eles for the longest”, THIS IS NOT THE SAME THING. I skilled player could take down a D/D Ele it was OP but mildy, what we’re seeing now is a level of OP in some of these Elite specs that will make so in win when the exploit is used you will HAVE TO BE on the same class to have any chance at all. Even when you are it’s going to still be all about who can pop interrupt/condition stack first.

For unranked player it makes sense to allow Elite specs but to give players the option not to be forced into teams with them while they are temporarly banned from Rank play as the first skill balance is applied. I would suggest a 2-3 month window after launch before starting the new PvP season to allow for this first balance to occur.

SamTheGuardian.2938:

No the players will not be locked out just the players Elite Speced characters. It’s very clear several (if not all) of the Elite specs are over powered in PvP.

It’s very clear several non Elite spec builds are over powered in PvP. Can we lock those out too?

Just pointing out the flaw in your thinking here.

Exciton.8942:

It will be rather chaotic the first month after expansion hits.
But I am fine with that. Players need new shiny stuff to keep their interest in the game.
We can talk about balance etc after it settles down.

no no no. NEVER put balance secondary. It needs to be there from the start.

LunacyPolish.4602:

SamTheGuardian.2938:

No the players will not be locked out just the players Elite Speced characters. It’s very clear several (if not all) of the Elite specs are over powered in PvP.

It’s very clear several non Elite spec builds are over powered in PvP. Can we lock those out too?

Just pointing out the flaw in your thinking here.

Look at the current state of sPvP in GW2. It’s in a pretty good place. D/D Ele’s were really the last OP build and the mild nerf has balanced it. Just about every class has a solid sPvP meta which has made Pug matches fun a good part of the time.

With the Elite Specs they are introducing classes that have builds substantially over powered. How much time have you spent observing hot join and studying the elite spec builds and their damage out, sustainability, etc… I’ve spent several hours doing this. I’m not going to get into the details because I’m not going to aid them but I’m right about the unbalance and I’m right about the damage it will do to the game. Not every Elite spec is over powered but there are a few that are. It makes sense that after launch there should be a cool down period where ArenaNet can observe where the balance needs to be placed on these new Elite Specs before they are allowed in Ranked matches. If they do not take that step, then they will make Ranked play a mockery.

If they are going to take that step in Ranked then the logical thing to do would be to make it optional for those queuing for Unranked to opt out of competing against them until they are authorized for Rank play. This would keep balance and hold the integrity of sPvP in GW2. It’s taken a very long time to get us to where we are now where a player can roll almost any class and find a great meta build, spend some time training on that build and then be an effective team member in a Pug. More advanced players in pre-mades can roll custom builds. Mark my words the Elite Specs as they are in BWE#3 will DESTROY sPvP in this game. No one wants to play a game with cheaters. No one wants to play a game where cheats can exploit something unbalanced and win. No one will take it seriously and it will become a bunch of children running around laughing and getting their jollies as they utilize whatever new exploits are discovered on the elite specs to destroy the game. I say let them do that, they are going to anyway and they need to be able to in order to discover these balance problems, BUT restrict them to only being able to do that in Hot Join, private server matches and Unranked where players have opted to allow them in their matches. What I’m suggesting would solve the problem.

Do you really want things to go back to how bad they were at the core games launch? What I am suggesting would absolutely save that from happening because it would protect the integrity of the current meta while ANet watches what Unranked games where Elite Specs are played and spends some time balancing. Essentially this extends a beta to sPvP Elite Specs post launch.

Hot Join? Your prediction of mass chaos in PvP is based on Hot Join? Elite Specs are hardly a determining factor on who wins in Ranked / Unranked… Conquest is still the same limited game mode where rotation and communication is way more important than anything else.

SamTheGuardian.2938:

LunacyPolish.4602:

SamTheGuardian.2938:

No the players will not be locked out just the players Elite Speced characters. It’s very clear several (if not all) of the Elite specs are over powered in PvP.

It’s very clear several non Elite spec builds are over powered in PvP. Can we lock those out too?

Just pointing out the flaw in your thinking here.

Look at the current state of sPvP in GW2. It’s in a pretty good place. D/D Ele’s were really the last OP build and the mild nerf has balanced it. Just about every class has a solid sPvP meta which has made Pug matches fun a good part of the time.

There are any number of people who would debate that with you.

SamTheGuardian.2938:

With the Elite Specs they are introducing classes that have builds substantially over powered. How much time have you spent observing hot join and studying the elite spec builds and their damage out, sustainability, etc… I’ve spent several hours doing this. I’m not going to get into the details because I’m not going to aid them but I’m right about the unbalance and I’m right about the damage it will do to the game. Not every Elite spec is over powered but there are a few that are. It makes sense that after launch there should be a cool down period where ArenaNet can observe where the balance needs to be placed on these new Elite Specs before they are allowed in Ranked matches. If they do not take that step, then they will make Ranked play a mockery.

1. I’ve spent the better part of this BWE on either the scrapper, in TS with other players beta testing the other elites, or on a normal character fighting these elite specs, including the horrors of the alacrity spamming chronomancer and the perma daze druid.

Are they nasty? Hell yes they are. But they die just fine.

But just as I see the forums crying over Scrapper, I’ve played it enough to realize once people settle down, they’ll see it’s entirely beatable. Reaper is a bit nasty at the moment yes, but I have figured out how to stop it cold on my own regular necro. Etc. Etc.

Do I have a perfect counter for everything yet? No, the perma daze Druid for example is still a problem. But one weekend, even all three, is not enough time to really say it’s broke. Is it broke or do we just not have enough time with it yet to figure out the counter?

Additionally, who is likely to play these elite specs during the beta? Reasonably accomplished players and people who have been playing a long time who have already pre ordered. 80% of my games are on an Engineer. I doodled in a notebook 5 pages of possible Scrapper builds over the last 2 weeks from memory. I’m not saying I’m a good Engineer or even a decent one, but if I know that much to be able to do that, it seems reasonable I’m going to come up with something good that other people aren’t going to know how to neutralize yet.

And surprise, surprise, once I got 2-3 bad games out of my system and figured it out better, I started to do very well on the Scrapper. Because it’s still an Engineer, and I had the advantage of being new and strange. But having done that, I now know there’s no particular reason to fear the Scrapper. Respect it yes, but don’t fear it.

When HoT actually releases, I predict the general effectiveness of these elite specs will seem to suddenly tank as the skill of the players generalizes and shifts away from people who at least have some clue how to use them. Right now you’re seeing at least somewhat experienced players who are chomping at the bit for something new and fresh playing them. They’re going to be a nasty lot.

Once people calm down and realize that none of the Elites are strictly better versions of the base class (except maybe Chronomancer to hear some tell it…), it’ll settle down. Right now it’s new and shiny and we’re all playing with our new toys.

2. It’d be daft to introduce new things to play and then bar them from such a prominent game mode. Why don’t we ban Reapers from WvW, they change the balance there. Why don’t we ban Druids from Dungeons. etc. etc.

There will be some stupidly broken stuff. There’s stupidly broken stuff now. There will be more stupidly broken stuff in the future.

Elite specs won’t destroy PvP as long as classes don’t significantly out perform others.

Elite specs WILL destroy PvP when players are split between HoT vs. non-HoT

Right now Reaper, Scrapper and Chronomancer are just more powerful elite specs for their classes. If you are a main engineer, necromancer and mesmer, you are going to be behind unless you buy the expansion.

Nova Stiker.8396:

Elite specs won’t destroy PvP as long as classes don’t significantly out perform others.

Elite specs WILL destroy PvP when players are split between HoT vs. non-HoT

Right now Reaper, Scrapper and Chronomancer are just more powerful elite specs for their classes. If you are a main engineer, necromancer and mesmer, you are going to be behind unless you buy the expansion.

Base necromancer builds stop Reapers just fine. Did it for 3 hours yesterday. Reapers are still good, they’re just different not better.

Base engineer can kite and bait the Scrapper’s key skills then burst them down quickly. Same thing, different and fun to play and I love it, but it’s not strictly better once you sit down and suss it out.

Can’t comment on the mesmer situation, not qualified.

LunacyPolish.4602:

Nova Stiker.8396:

Elite specs won’t destroy PvP as long as classes don’t significantly out perform others.

Elite specs WILL destroy PvP when players are split between HoT vs. non-HoT

Right now Reaper, Scrapper and Chronomancer are just more powerful elite specs for their classes. If you are a main engineer, necromancer and mesmer, you are going to be behind unless you buy the expansion.

Base necromancer builds stop Reapers just fine. Did it for 3 hours yesterday. Reapers are still good, they’re just different not better.

Base engineer can kite and bait the Scrapper’s key skills then burst them down quickly. Same thing, different and fun to play and I love it, but it’s not strictly better once you sit down and suss it out.

Can’t comment on the mesmer situation, not qualified.

• Reapers are significantly better than Necromancers in every apect, you must have not fight a cele reaper yet.
  Not to mention they hard counter ALL elementalist builds, no matter what the elemenetalist is using or the ele’s skill level, the Reaper is just going to hard counter it.

• Scrappers damage is very high, not to mention they cannot be kited unlike the Reaper. Just some tweaking will be fine.

• Chronomancers are just better than Mesmers in every aspect, just because F5. Becoming a Chronomancer doesn’t change shatterspike in the least bit and you can now improve shatterspike. It wouldn’t be an issue if Mesmers get new F1-F4 shatters.

Nova Stiker.8396:

Elite specs won’t destroy PvP as long as classes don’t significantly out perform others.

Elite specs WILL destroy PvP when players are split between HoT vs. non-HoT

Right now Reaper, Scrapper and Chronomancer are just more powerful elite specs for their classes. If you are a main engineer, necromancer and mesmer, you are going to be behind unless you buy the expansion.

I am biased and I will be up front about that. Reaper is better then vanilla Necromancer at playing the way I want to play my Necromancer but I will still be running vanilla celestial signet Necromancer when playing Courtyard or depending on my team / my opponent’s team comp.

I will admit I haven’t tried celestial signet on Reaper and it could very well be too strong but the entire elite specialization shouldn’t be tuned for one out of all the possible amulet combinations you could use in one game mode… I also severely doubt that for the purposes that I use celestial signet for Reaper Shroud in any way has an advantage over vanilla celestial signet.

Nova Stiker.8396:

• Reapers are significantly better than Necromancers in every apect, you must have not fight a cele reaper yet.

Yeah in all that time I must not have faced the single most popular amulet currently used right now. Come on. I held the center point in Khylo against 2 Reapers for 45 seconds before my team came to kill them and I probably could have held it longer. They’re fine. They are going to wreck some people and be countered by others.

Nova Stiker.8396:

• Scrappers damage is very high, not to mention they cannot be kited unlike the Reaper. Just some tweaking will be fine.

The tweaking is not what you seem to think though. Rifle Damage > Hammer Damage. Hammer needs to be made to hit a bit harder actually, and Rocket Charge in particular is a bit of a mess.

Damage Wise:
FT Marauder Build > Scrapper
Grenadier Build > Scrapper, Granted you could do a Scrapper Grenadier, but it’s not particularly better
Static Discharge Builds ~ Debatable if Scrapper version is better or not

Yes there are some nasty, nasty glassy Scrapper builds that can wreck your day, but it’s no worse than what engineers already have. There’s some Marauder amulet SD Scrappers wrecking people, it’s a good build. But once people get used to it and know what to watch out for and know when to hit their defenses, it’ll settle down. People just aren’t used to engineers having leap and that stun yet.

Also, that particular build is going to get rekt under focus. They’ll have some sustain/block/escape by virtue of being engineers and in a lot of cases it might be enough to escape and reset, but if they’re surviving they’re not DPSing.

And yeah, they certainly can be kited. Granted, you can build a scrapper that’s difficult to kite, but it gives up either a great deal of damage reduction or damage output to get that way. Seems fair to me.

Now what I chose to do was go Sigil of Intelligence with a Soldier Amulet, so I was able to swap to hammer and do some bursts that way and yeah it was effective, but it’s nothing I couldn’t already do with the Rifle as far as that goes.

People just aren’t used to Engineers being able to do certain things yet, it doesn’t fit their mental patterns. Once they adjust, it’ll be fine.

Nova Stiker.8396:

• Chronomancers are just better than Mesmers in every aspect, just because F5. Becoming a Chronomancer doesn’t change shatterspike in the least bit and you can now improve shatterspike. It wouldn’t be an issue if Mesmers get new F1-F4 shatters.

This is something I’ve heard from multiple people who I know to have reasonable opinions personally, I just can’t vouch for it, but I won’t be surprised if it turns out to be the case.

LunacyPolish.4602:

Nova Stiker.8396:

Elite specs won’t destroy PvP as long as classes don’t significantly out perform others.

Elite specs WILL destroy PvP when players are split between HoT vs. non-HoT

Right now Reaper, Scrapper and Chronomancer are just more powerful elite specs for their classes. If you are a main engineer, necromancer and mesmer, you are going to be behind unless you buy the expansion.

Base necromancer builds stop Reapers just fine. Did it for 3 hours yesterday. Reapers are still good, they’re just different not better.

Base engineer can kite and bait the Scrapper’s key skills then burst them down quickly. Same thing, different and fun to play and I love it, but it’s not strictly better once you sit down and suss it out.

Can’t comment on the mesmer situation, not qualified.

A player who is more skilled with Necromancer can, given both players are about equal skill the Reaper is more powerful…. Chronomancer is a big problem…. The bottom line is these new classes are not balanced. Historically when has an MMO seen this much change (essentially we are getting new classes for all existing base classes plus an entirely new class). This classes are not balanced. They are balanced well enough for PvE play, but not for PvP. No doubt there will be balancing for these elite specializations and the revenant and the most drastic balancing usually takes place in the first few months after release. Why should the Meta sPvP in GW2 suffer from that? Why destroy Ranked play with unbalanced classes? If you don’t take the game serious then obviously you’re looking at this from a very different perspective.

The only elite spec that’s stronger than it should be is Chrono, which is just because every single meta Mesmer build is focused around spamming shatters and Chrono offers the best shatter support of any Mesmer spec by far.