Guild Wars 2

Another classic case of someone calling everyone else out for being unable to talk constructively, while the real culprit is themself. I’m not going to actually address the (very few) points that warrant response, since others have done that well enough. Instead, I’ll attempt to show you how you’re the one being "childish," as you like to keep putting it.

Anyone can easily argue the way you are right now, and create a one-sided discussion that goes no where. For example, I could easily say mesmers will be getting alacrity for shattering, and their phantasms will respawn after the first time they are shattered allowing for easier for consistent shatters and thus more consistent alacrity, which increases skill recharge by 66% thus making mesmers essentially immune to chill for the up-time of alacrity. Then, I could pretend it isn’t balanced by skills having longer cool downs - just like thieves have, essentially, by having only one initiative pool for both weapon sets - in order to keep repeating "mesmers are going to be immune to chill!"

So, being constructive...

Proposal: Chill affects thief weapon skills via initiative regeneration rate. Reasons given.
As with any changes to any class in such a game, this calls for a balance review.
Balance proposal: A separate initiative bar for each weapon set. Reasons given.
Response...

StickerHappy.8052:

You thieves always ask for compensation, even if its blatantly unfair.

You always defend your class with "Working as Intended"

I mean cmon, can’t you thieves engage in a more constructive rebuttals?

The proposal was met with an "if this, then this," which would be the case for any class that was about to receive a significant change to its class mechanic. Case and point: the devs are reviewing the cool downs of the mesmer shatter skills in light of the new alacrity status effect which will increase skill recharge rate by 66% while active.

The claim that having separate initiative pools for each weapon set is unfair is not justified. You make reference to the claim "working as intended," when it was not used. You give no reasoning, yet shoot those who did give reasoning down, telling them they are not being constructive. The ones who reason are the ones who are constructive, i.e. the opposite of what you are doing.

You refuse to be constructive, to a constructive response, yet demand others be constructive when not only were they being so, but you yourself are not. Now how can they, when each time they are, you respond with: unfair, not constructive. This is the real childish behaviour. This is what you’re saying:
"I want this. I want nothing else changed as per common practice to ensure balance, I just want this. I won’t accept a discussion over it unless it is to agree with me. I won’t listen to reason as to why it is unfair to do so without balancing, I just want it done. What was considered non-constructive is now constructive, so that I can wield the term to bat away reasoning, because I just want my way."

Or to use your own words, this is what you are doing:

StickerHappy.8052:

So why not make a constructive rebuttal? Like a different idea, instead of just "Nope Nope Nope, You can’t" mentality

Scrolling onward...

StickerHappy.8052:

Turk.5460:

StickerHappy.8052:

Let me guess you’re another thief. LOL.

I Did say we can make a compromise to just make -10% ini/sec, sooooo...

Yeah...30 posts into the topic, only after you gained a little humility and realized your original _and very adamant_ demand was ridiculous.

My original demand was the affect thieves via ini regen, the topic got so derailed because of you thieves acting defensively, Read my post to Cynz that I even told him I have even 10% is pushing too much?

Actually, you didn’t.

StickerHappy.8052:

Are thieves not strong? You have always been part of the meta? Cmon, stop acting thieves have it worse than other classes, (Rangers, necros)

Just even -10% ini regen is pushing too much? lol.

Again I do get your point about utilities, no one is disputing that!

But lets compare it:

*Chill affects other classes utilities? Yes! Chill affects other classes weapon skills? Yes!*

*Does chill affect thieves utilities? Yes! Does chill affect other classes weapon skills? No?*

Yes you do have a different mechanic, Thats why I am suggesting for it to affect initiative regeneration rate!

You can’t even give a number for a compromise?

There is a difference when someone wants creative discussion and someone who just blatantly refuses to engage in one.

See that difference.

Why do you always make it look like I am whining? I am not, I never said I was having a hard time with thieves. I am suggesting a fair working condition for everyone else

"Just even -10% ini regen is pushing too much?" This context is more of a belittlement than a compromise attempt. Besides, the devs don’t "compromise," they "balance." Ideally, they want the same mechanic to work the same on everything it is applied to so they don’t have to create special conditions, because that creates more work with the implementation and maintenance, and can start to make the code less elegant. It would be more ideal from a programming perspective, to have chill affect initiative regeneration by -66% and add a separate initiative pool for each weapon swap.

"You can’t even give a number for a compromise?"

You see? This again. Balance proposals offered, reasoning repetitively given as to why the refuted balance proposal is fair, and why balancing would be necessary, yet still you say no one is offering "numbers" for "compromise," i.e. in realistic terms: modifications for balance maintenance.

A separate initiative bar for each weapon set is exactly this. Now instead, you could be constructive here, and say something like:
"Yes that’s a step toward being fair and maintaining balance, but it would be a huge buff to thieves while chill doesn’t come in to play."
Then offer a counter-counter. I’ll give you an example of one of these too:
"How about keeping one initiative pool for both weapon sets, but increasing the pool and the base initiative regeneration rate a bit instead, so that while under the effects of chill, thieves can still use their skills and combos and not necessarily be completely out of initiative when they swap weapons, without having essentially double their current initiative regeneration rate over two weapon sets while not under the effects of chill?"
Which could be accepted, or argued with yet another counter suggestion made, until a good number of potential solutions are listed, from which the best or yet more ideas can be drawn by combining aspects of each.

This is how constructive balance discussions are had; how ideas are had, discussed and listed before considered more seriously for implementation. Devs could read this and think it raises some valid points, and take them into consideration. Instead though, they are more likely to see this thread, see a one-sided discussion going no where, and dismiss it entirely.

The OP doesn’t understand how initiative works and argues with those that do. Doesn’t sound like this discussion is going to be very constructive.

Oh man, if chill affected initiative regeneration…

The Tears, they would be so sweet.

Still, it’s kinda amusing to see people think that having no cooldown with a resource cost is always innately superior to cooldowns with no resource cost. Until Revanants are released (which, if I remember their preview right, will have to juggle both with nearly all their skills), Thieves are unique to all professions in that they are the only ones where using one weapon skill could make them unable to use another weapon skill, even if it’s on a different weapon.

Also, didn’t chill used to affect initiative regeneration, but it was nerfed because it was too punishing for thieves? I’m not sure about this, though.

I should probably actually contribute something to this thread now lol.

In the HoT specialization stream where the working changes to existing trait lines were previewed, the possibility of an increase to the base initiative regeneration rate was mentioned. It was not confirmed as definitely happening or not happening - they keep specifying that all numbers are in the process of being re-balanced. I don’t believe there was any mention of chill with this, showing that the devs appear to currently appreciate the problems that come with the initiative mechanic and the high costing skills and combos, and having low initiative following a weapon weapon swap. The "energy" recharge rate we saw for the revenant’s skills was really high - although they said numbers aren’t final on that stream too. That doesn’t mean no one can argue they are wrong to think this, of course. However, even if it were or is fine as it is, the potential for -66% recharge rate on a single resource that is required by all skills and is not refreshed on a weapon swap or unique to each weapon set is very strong, and balance changes would need to be made to the mechanic.

The aim would be to balance initiative regeneration and or chill so that the former can be affected by the latter a reasonable amount without putting the class at a disadvantage relatively greater than that which is experienced by other classes when affected by the condition. Ultimately, the initiative regeneration rate will be effectively increased, whether directly or indirectly, such that on average, factoring in chill effects, initiative regeneration will be the same as it is now. Consequentially, the initiative regeneration rate will be buffed, and that buff will be apparent as a buff when under the effects of chill for less than what was considered average during the re-balancing, and similarly a nerf when under the effects of chill for longer than what was considered average during the re-balancing.

So the devs could leave it alone (not including the potential increase the initiative regeneration rate slightly as they indicated they were considering), or buff it so that chill can affect it equally. Ultimately the mechanic will be the same as, or very close to it is currently, give or take a percentage. So you see, they would have to discuss and agree on the changes, numbers, balance, calculate a balanced value from a huge number of variables, review, implement, test, correct, repeat development steps until satisfactory, and deliver, just to have it work, on average, the same as it does now. This marks such a change as an act of "perfectionism," that would only remove some ill- perceived unfairness to stop complaints. Alas, people will always find something to complain about, so changes for such purposes are very low priority. If I was a dev faced with the option to do this, I would choose to spend my time on something more urgent or that would be more meaningful in the game’s development.

Furthermore, the fact that initiative would have to be re-balanced if chill were to affect it means that it is plausible that it has already been balanced with consideration to the fact that chill doesn’t effect it. If this is true, then it is not broken and what you want already exists - the fact it was balanced in consideration of chill means the existence of chill is affecting the mechanic’s values.