Guild Wars 2

Everyone and his daughter are playing super tanky builds. Tons of dd ele, bunker guard, mm necro, soldier engi, pu condie mesmer. Not fun at all.

Only spec that can die in this meta is like warrior. And even they have double endure pain.

Nerf conditions (necro / ele / burnguard / engie), buff risk / reward gameplay (medi guard / thief / axe warrior), possibly make kills worth more points to encourage killing rather than turtleing.

Erindriel.2351:

Nerf conditions (necro / ele / burnguard / engie), buff risk / reward gameplay (medi guard / thief / axe warrior), possibly make kills worth more points to encourage killing rather than turtleing.

You know what. I actually find burn guard to be the only spec that can kill things now. I would rather burn remaining strong.

Point capture is what brought about this meta. It’s also why I don’t PVP but very extremely rarely. If there were more kinds of PVP arenas I probably would PVP more but tank building point capture is just so kitten boring.

I feel like bunker spec and vamp runes came about from people getting insta gibbed by thief and mesmer. Someone can correct me if I’m wrong though.

Well yeah. High burst damage from thief / mes / necro + need to hold points = more value in survivability / cc than actual fighting ability.

It’s why they maybe need to make killing on par with point-holding, or simply give us a third checkbox for courtyard-type maps, as they did for conquest / stronghold.

1) Significant damage increase for offensive roles
or
2) New game mode received that works off a separate meta, and is liked a lot more than conquest by the majority, including most teams.

Exciton.8942:

Everyone and his daughter are playing super tanky builds. Tons of dd ele, bunker guard, mm necro, soldier engi, pu condie mesmer. Not fun at all.

Its an overall problem with game type and map design.

Bunker builds are optimal for holding points and winning the match, except courtyard and to a smaller extent now possibly stronghold where 1 zerker thief can almost insta gib all the doorbreakers.

Courtyard Map is fail. Its too small, thus severly limits fight tactics and does not provide dailies completion. Thus people avoid it as much as possible.

Game needs more maps or current maps to be adjusted to and selectable as different modes, for example some sort of CTF style with some other game types.

its easy.

1. look at gw1 pvp
2. add random arena – (no respawn, no mmr, short queue ~30secs, short fights ~3-5 min)
3. ???
4. profit

Exciton.8942:

Everyone and his daughter are playing super tanky builds. Tons of dd ele, bunker guard, mm necro, soldier engi, pu condie mesmer. Not fun at all.

none of those builds is “too much bunker”….. It was a bunker-meta when multiple players on a team ran a bunker-build, which couldn’t be killed for long times even with two ppl.

Nowadays, every build can be killed with 2 players. Worst case scenario is, that you maybe have to think about which builds you send to kill a “bunker”.

Didn’t ppl complain like 2 months ago that the whole meta was too squishy and everything dealt too much dmg? There’s no pleasing you guys. :P

This bunker meta was created when anet removed the stats from traitline and made it baseline and reworked amulets and the result was damage being really high and some buffs to tankier traitline on a bunch of classes.

play with zerker amu and l2burst

Start from removing celestial amulet…

TheFantasticGman.9451:

Point capture is what brought about this meta. It’s also why I don’t PVP but very extremely rarely. If there were more kinds of PVP arenas I probably would PVP more but tank building point capture is just so kitten boring.

Whilst more variety of PvP modes would be nice, point capture doesn’t create bunker meta in itself, the class design, mechanics and balance do, long ago teams used to run with burst comps (Helseth’s old teams for example).

You also have issues that “encourage” many classes to go tanky in some way, for example there is a huge disparity in survivability between classes when it comes to going glassy, classes like thief/mesmer/medi guard have huge survivability (in different ways) when glassy, compared to say a glass engy, hence engy is always forced to go tanky in some way be it celestial, soldiers, etc.

Other classes had the same issue, for the 8 or so months directly before the celestial/might rune patch, ele was virtually non-existent in tournaments, it had no strong tanky build and any glassy build was just food to thieves/mesmers. Same thing for ranger, other than tanky side node builds early on / spirit ranger, the class has basically been non-meta, glassy longbow has been okay on a couple of maps, but still overall vastly inferior to thieves, mes, etc.

If there wasn’t a cele amulet everyone would be on pure bunkers with knockbacks and CC hitting each other with wet noodles just trying to sumo people off point until their theif arrives.

The insane damage of mesmers and thief (expecially mesmers why they don’t need to come malee to deal they’re insane burst damage) make different classes more focused on celestial or bunker.
The insane amount of damage (look at 1 month ago posts) made some classes to chose a more dps build in both direct and condition damage.

Actually I see more dps builds in spvp than before the big patch. Seriously.
Before the patch you was able to see only DD ele in celestial, bunker guardians, soldier hambow/axebow/shoutbow warriors, cleric/sentinel engis that heal and CC you till the end of your life, no necromancers, only few pewpew rangers and few mesmers and some dps guardians.

Actually you can see: more dps guardians than bunkers (direct or condition damage), direct/condi mesmers everywhere that burst you down really fast, dps warriors, pewpew/trapper rangers, thiefs with insane dps (if they know how to burst), necromancers with dsp/corrupter build (and some MM, but more dps builds than bunker MM), condi engi that burst you down in a sec (with only few bunker/CC engi). And now with the DD cele ele nerf on burn you will see lesser DD ele deal insane damage, making them lesser viable for dps and with the buff on the scepter with the Ground Target skill 2 the Flash Air will be more used, adding DPS to the meta.

Actually there’s much more dps than before the big patch!

I frequently find premades with a insane amount of dps.

But the Conquest system in the matches force us to have at last 1-2 bunkers to defend the points why it’s the better way to win.

I play a MM necro in a personal build that can kill a large amount of classes in 1vs1 and when I play with my friends my role is hold the close or help at the mid if there’s not other bunkers. But if there’s someone that can do my role I swap in dps and kill the world with the dps of the necromancer.

But, for example, in Countryard I always log my dps ranger to deal damage why when there’s no points to hold a bunker is useless.

It’s all about the map and the win system.

A good thing will be make more maps with different win systems (death match, conquer, strnghold, more…) and make us able to chose what kind of match we want to play, like for the stronghold.

That will make us able to chose between different playstyle, make different builds and edit new metas for all the different maps.

Exciton.8942:

Only spec that can die in this meta is like warrior. And even they have double endure pain.

Thief dies pretty easily too, hit them once and they are down to 10% hp and then apply like 1 or 2 condis thief will be dead.

PowerBottom.5796:

Exciton.8942:

Everyone and his daughter are playing super tanky builds. Tons of dd ele, bunker guard, mm necro, soldier engi, pu condie mesmer. Not fun at all.

none of those builds is “too much bunker”….. It was a bunker-meta when multiple players on a team ran a bunker-build, which couldn’t be killed for long times even with two ppl.

Nowadays, every build can be killed with 2 players. Worst case scenario is, that you maybe have to think about which builds you send to kill a “bunker”.

Didn’t ppl complain like 2 months ago that the whole meta was too squishy and everything dealt too much dmg? There’s no pleasing you guys. :P

Don’t expect these people to be consistent. Bunkers have always been a big part and will continue to be a big part of any sort of game play that requires you to hold points. But Bunkers can be dealt with.

Petoox.6570:

Exciton.8942:

Only spec that can die in this meta is like warrior. And even they have double endure pain.

Thief dies pretty easily too, hit them once and they are down to 10% hp and then apply like 1 or 2 condis thief will be dead.

A half-decent thief won’t die either. The current meta for thief is also full sustain and utility.

Exciton.8942:

Petoox.6570:

Exciton.8942:

Only spec that can die in this meta is like warrior. And even they have double endure pain.

Thief dies pretty easily too, hit them once and they are down to 10% hp and then apply like 1 or 2 condis thief will be dead.

A half-decent thief won’t die either. The current meta for thief is also full sustain and utility.

>Thief meta is full sustain
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cgbZqR2AGI

PowerBottom.5796:

Exciton.8942:

Everyone and his daughter are playing super tanky builds. Tons of dd ele, bunker guard, mm necro, soldier engi, pu condie mesmer. Not fun at all.

none of those builds is “too much bunker”….. It was a bunker-meta when multiple players on a team ran a bunker-build, which couldn’t be killed for long times even with two ppl.

Nowadays, every build can be killed with 2 players. Worst case scenario is, that you maybe have to think about which builds you send to kill a “bunker”.

Didn’t ppl complain like 2 months ago that the whole meta was too squishy and everything dealt too much dmg? There’s no pleasing you guys. :P

Currently bunker are too effective. Even more so in relatively unorganized everyday queuing. It’s not rare to see 3-4 bunkers each team. To get a 2v1 kill is possible but usually not worth the time. You also still have dd ele that easily survive 2v1 and rotate to other points. Soldier engi, to a lesser degree, also does that.

I think the best and easiest thing would be to buff zerker builds, especially of those classes who have TERRIBLE zerker builds (engis, eles, wars and rangers to a lesser degree.)

(note buffing zerker doesnt mean increasing dmg per se, most of those classes have other probs that force them into bunker/cele builds)

Mightybird.6034:

I think the best and easiest thing would be to buff zerker builds, especially of those classes who have TERRIBLE zerker builds (engis, eles, wars and rangers to a lesser degree.)

(note buffing zerker doesnt mean increasing dmg per se, most of those classes have other probs that force them into bunker/cele builds)

^
Zerks help against bunkers, but they are run out of the meta by classes like teef.

Exciton.8942:

PowerBottom.5796:

Exciton.8942:

Everyone and his daughter are playing super tanky builds. Tons of dd ele, bunker guard, mm necro, soldier engi, pu condie mesmer. Not fun at all.

none of those builds is “too much bunker”….. It was a bunker-meta when multiple players on a team ran a bunker-build, which couldn’t be killed for long times even with two ppl.

Nowadays, every build can be killed with 2 players. Worst case scenario is, that you maybe have to think about which builds you send to kill a “bunker”.

Didn’t ppl complain like 2 months ago that the whole meta was too squishy and everything dealt too much dmg? There’s no pleasing you guys. :P

Currently bunker are too effective. Even more so in relatively unorganized everyday queuing. It’s not rare to see 3-4 bunkers each team. To get a 2v1 kill is possible but usually not worth the time. You also still have dd ele that easily survive 2v1 and rotate to other points. Soldier engi, to a lesser degree, also does that.

As long as you can kill a bunker with 2 (semi-)DPS chars, bunkers aren’t too effective.

And guess what, you cannot balance a teamgame around random Q’s: Yes, even a semi-bunker is “too tanky” if ppl don’t at least focus it. Well, a total glasscannon is too tanky if no1 attacks it as well.

2v1 kills not worth the while? Well, if you atk a full-bunker with 2 low-dps chars that had to walk to the point very slowly and take 2 mins to kill it, then it isn’t worth it, for sure. That’s why there are specific characters for such “+1-situations” that deal heavy DMG and are very mobile, Thief or Mesmer for example. If you kill the target quickly and leave the right ppl at the right places to defend, a 2v1 kill is totally worth it.

Ppl need to begin to understand that there are very clearly defined roles and well though out team-compositions in this game. If you wanna run around in solo-Q’s, at least know what your character is good at and which situations you should search for and which ones to avoid.

literally 90% of the whine-threads on this board can be solved with very basic understanding of how such team-based games should be played: understanding roles, rotations and basic strategic movement on the map. This stuff isn’t rocket-science.

Sorry, going to have to disagree. Burning burst is viable so the counter is bunker, sustain. Necro celestial signet is viable which is also a burst variant (condi/power). Mesmer was, after the June patch, a burst/lockdown meta.

The sustain/bunker is a direct result of many players having to deal with condi/power pressure. Especially in solo q where you don’t know what you will get for team mates. You need to play classes that are more forgiving. That’s bunker.

PowerBottom.5796:

Exciton.8942:

PowerBottom.5796:

Exciton.8942:

Everyone and his daughter are playing super tanky builds. Tons of dd ele, bunker guard, mm necro, soldier engi, pu condie mesmer. Not fun at all.

none of those builds is “too much bunker”….. It was a bunker-meta when multiple players on a team ran a bunker-build, which couldn’t be killed for long times even with two ppl.

Nowadays, every build can be killed with 2 players. Worst case scenario is, that you maybe have to think about which builds you send to kill a “bunker”.

Didn’t ppl complain like 2 months ago that the whole meta was too squishy and everything dealt too much dmg? There’s no pleasing you guys. :P

Currently bunker are too effective. Even more so in relatively unorganized everyday queuing. It’s not rare to see 3-4 bunkers each team. To get a 2v1 kill is possible but usually not worth the time. You also still have dd ele that easily survive 2v1 and rotate to other points. Soldier engi, to a lesser degree, also does that.

As long as you can kill a bunker with 2 (semi-)DPS chars, bunkers aren’t too effective.

And guess what, you cannot balance a teamgame around random Q’s: Yes, even a semi-bunker is “too tanky” if ppl don’t at least focus it. Well, a total glasscannon is too tanky if no1 attacks it as well.

2v1 kills not worth the while? Well, if you atk a full-bunker with 2 low-dps chars that had to walk to the point very slowly and take 2 mins to kill it, then it isn’t worth it, for sure. That’s why there are specific characters for such “+1-situations” that deal heavy DMG and are very mobile, Thief or Mesmer for example. If you kill the target quickly and leave the right ppl at the right places to defend, a 2v1 kill is totally worth it.

Ppl need to begin to understand that there are very clearly defined roles and well though out team-compositions in this game. If you wanna run around in solo-Q’s, at least know what your character is good at and which situations you should search for and which ones to avoid.

literally 90% of the whine-threads on this board can be solved with very basic understanding of how such team-based games should be played: understanding roles, rotations and basic strategic movement on the map. This stuff isn’t rocket-science.

I totally agree the balanced should not be around random q’s. The reality is that if you go watch ESLs. It is even more obvious it is bunker meta there. There are way less deaths a game compared to pre-patch. It is pretty much all super sustain spec forever.

You can even go back watch WTS. Red Levin in his interview said it is sustain meta. Helseth in his stream said several times it is sustain meta and he doesn’t like it.

Also the bunker I am talking about is less about a role. These specs can usually take more than one role in the team game and completely negates necessity of other types of builds. To make things worse, they are also the easiest to play specs in the game. So surely everyone will gravitate to playing those.

burst stealth classes make burst classes without stealth a real mission to play, so it’s no surprise most no stealth classes run bruiser or bunker builds tbh.

choovanski.5462:

burst stealth classes make burst classes without stealth a real mission to play, so it’s no surprise most no stealth classes run bruiser or bunker builds tbh.

Long stealth is just one form of crazy sustain.

I wanna play Zerk (scepter) Ele so bad, but I’m afraid of getting blown up on sight by Thieves and Mesmers.

I will admit I need to l2burst; but I also think there is some truth to the statement that Thieves/Mesmers keep other zerk classes out of the meta, with the possible exception of Guardians.

Exciton.8942:

Erindriel.2351:

Nerf conditions (necro / ele / burnguard / engie), buff risk / reward gameplay (medi guard / thief / axe warrior), possibly make kills worth more points to encourage killing rather than turtleing.

You know what. I actually find burn guard to be the only spec that can kill things now. I would rather burn remaining strong.

Burn is a big reason for the tanky meta. You won’t change the meta without changing burns.

by buffing mesmer shatters

I have bought the game from day 1, quit for around 2 years because no new game types were added (I was really hoping for random 2v2, 3v3 arenas), came back as the game pvp improved a bit and somehow missed it (yet by no means I’m going to give more money to this) and yet, now over 3 years since release (??) they just added a new game type which doesn’t seem really fun neither.
Just saying that by this time other games already had like 5 different game types, being arena the most popular one, you may guess the game…

So yeah, get your hopes down by new game types because that may happen 3 or 4 expansions from now.

People complained about burst meta, cele meta, condi meta and now bunker meta – make up your mind people…

Conquest will always end up with a “sustain” focused meta. This is intended by design of the mode enjoy it!!

TheFantasticGman.9451:

Point capture is what brought about this meta. It’s also why I don’t PVP but very extremely rarely. If there were more kinds of PVP arenas I probably would PVP more but tank building point capture is just so kitten boring.

Every time we get a fun new Arena people complain until it is removed from Ranked play or general play all together (Courtyard / Temple / and in all likelihood Stronghold shortly after release). That is why I just do Unranked… Same 3 maps over and over again gets boring fast.

Erindriel.2351:

Well yeah. High burst damage from thief / mes / necro + need to hold points = more value in survivability / cc than actual fighting ability.

It’s why they maybe need to make killing on par with point-holding, or simply give us a third checkbox for courtyard-type maps, as they did for conquest / stronghold.

This. That way I can uncheck the box and never have to play the dumb team death match maps. Courtyard is probably the worst map in rotation.

Funny, weren’t people complaining about burst not long ago >.>

SnowCow.5914:

Funny, weren’t people complaining about burst not long ago >.>

Add condition damage to that list.

Remove all amulets but zerker, marauder and assasin. Simple as that.

There is no bunker meta. Ppl play bunker because it’s the only thing that counters the cheese dd eles and burn guards.
Now that dd eles have been slightly nerfed we should be seeing slightly less of them and eventually , slightly less bunkers as well.

Someone said it earlier, but risk vs reward for DPS classes needs to be looked at.

I’d start by tinkering with the down state damage ratios to allow zerker based classes to do significantly more damage than bunker based classes to players in downed state. The current bunker meta is too forgiving in that once you go down, it’s ridiculously easy to get revived and with the amount of healing the meta gives, it basically resets the fight to square one.

The alternative to bunker meta is burst meta, and I’d rather not go back to that. I’ll take a hard to kill bunker over fights ending in less than 5 seconds any day of the week.