Guild Wars 2

real problem is, let’s say I’m ranked 5xxth on the leaderboard.
Game matches me with 4 solo team mates not even in top 1000 (let’s say around 90%), against a full premade with every one around 90%.

Of course I’m going to lose that game, and I’m going to lose a HUGE amount of points due to losing versus people lower than my rank
Then the next game I manage to win against a low rank premade, and I gain next to nothing.

Risk vs Reward for going solo is not proportionate at the moment, and that makes it even worse.

nakoda.4213:

how is it artificially high to begin at the baseline, with players with fewer points (more losses) below you, and players with more points (more wins) above you.

“baseline” has no meaning, and we do not know where this "baseline is set due to secrecy of the rating system. My contention is that this “baseline” is currently set far too high, because regardless of your personal position in the rating system if you solo que about 10 matches you will see multiple rank 10 or below players. Frankly your hypothetical 20 game player has no business being in a match with even R20 players on the other team. Sure, rank is not an indication of skill necessarily, but the experience differential tells me that there is about a 95% chance that the team with the sub-rank 10 player is going to lose barring mitigating factors (like the sub 10 is on a premade and they are playing a full solo que team)

nakoda.4213:

the only way to get tournament experience is by playing in tournaments. if you start new players too far down the list, you make the game artificially easy and more frustrating as the challenge increase. if you start them too high on the list, frustration begins at the outset.

That is the problem. Currently new players start too high on the list. Frustration sets in immediately. They say, “tPvP sucks, I’m gonna go HJ or PvE instead.” If you start them down much lower on the rating system, then they might play some terribads that are boring for a few matches, but once they have a dependable ample size against them they will be appropriately slotted for matchmaking and not be a monster liability when they do land on a team.

nakoda.4213:

Even though the 10-10 player has twenty maps experience, their experience isn’t as meaningfully put to use as the team that is 15-5 or 20-0 or even 11-9. As such, a new player with no tournament experience, but a solid foreground in basic pvp (map layout, class abilities and tells, basic awareness of nodes and ancillary objectives) will have an acceptable challenge before them.

With a sample size of only 20 matches I’d argue that you can make absoutely no value judgment on that player’s skill level. Particularly if the games are solo qued. First 20 games are purely luck influenced in terms of who you get for teammates and who the opposing team is.

nakoda.4213:

i do not understand why Anet is having such difficulties putting together a functioning queue system for solo and team players. it is not as though this is brand new technology we are dealing with. just because gamers crave innovation does NOT mean that something as simple as a leader board needs to be reinvented. just make it work.

I think even the Devs have the same feeling at this point. It appears to be an issue of resource management that is preventing meaningful progress. The team at A-net has been very explicit in saying that they intend to address this and that they are working on it. I suspect that the team working on this has not been provided with the things that they need to accomplish it in a timely fashion, and so they have to plod along with their best efforts and we will get it “when its ready”.

Not excusing, or even forgiving. That is just how it is with this game right now. I will now return to my seat at the back of the bus with the rest of the tPvPgroes.

Tyler Chapman.1832:

You should be experiencing much smaller rating deviations in games without a terrible sacrifice to queue time.

Ba Da Dun Tss !

Seriously, each 10 games 1 or 2 feels balanced and are fun to play,

The rest are either imposible or boring,

Many times I’ve faced 3 or 4 guys on the same guild with ranks between 40 and 50 against 5 pugs with levels behind 20, (and i’m saying many times),

A random matchmaking would be even better than this, not allowing people to choose their teams, it would be fair at least,

That’s how good is your matchmaking system, worst than random,

I’d like to recomend a handicap system to avoid high queues, but the result would be hilarious take in consideration the actual matchmaking system you did guys,

Sorry if i’m being mean, but it’s the absolute true,

really ?

8 of 10 games are fine for me. Maybe it is because I am not a top 1k player.

Myrmidian Eudoros.4671:

“baseline” has no meaning, and we do not know where this "baseline is set due to secrecy of the rating system. My contention is that this “baseline” is currently set far too high, because regardless of your personal position in the rating system if you solo que about 10 matches you will see multiple rank 10 or below players. Frankly your hypothetical 20 game player has no business being in a match with even R20 players on the other team.

That is the problem. Currently new players start too high on the list. Frustration sets in immediately.

With a sample size of only 20 matches I’d argue that you can make absoutely no value judgment on that player’s skill level. Particularly if the games are solo qued. First 20 games are purely luck influenced in terms of who you get for teammates and who the opposing team is.

baseline is just an operating word, it is not set it stone, currently present, or necessarily possible in the current system: BECAUSE WE DON’T KNOW WHAT THE CURRENT SYSTEM IS. Your predicated misconception that I am supporting the system Anet is using is misplaced, because calling my idea a baseline system is no different than calling DND a d20 system, or a bantam hockey tournament a round-robin system.

it is an option, and a better one than we have now.

Anet is going to have to completely wipe what they have, or they will be continually applying band-aids to the gaping wound that is pvp.

you are blinded by the last few months of kittenty matchmaking.

you cannot artificially lower a player’s place on the list because they wont LEARN anything about the game. YOU don’t learn anything unless you are CHALLENGED.

The point to splitting up the “training” and “tourney” systems is to teach players the basic game play skill they need to not stand around and die. The ONLY way they will learn how a tourny works is by being put in one.

Placing new players at the bottom of the list with kittenty players who have proven they suck by losing and moving down the ranks wont teach new players ANYTHING but frustration and disappointment and .. more importantly … BAD HABITS because their first impression of the game is from kittenty players.

You NEED to put them at a baseline so their first interactions in the system are, at the very least, with players who are good enough to maintain an average rating, or with other new players who can learn together, so that GOOD habits and PROPER teamwork is addressed.

Artificial deflation of new player standings only causes an exacerbated population of bad players.

you sound very elitist in your response, just saying.

my “sample size” was just a … sample … and example for illustrative purposes, because 10 wins 10 losses is a good number to do napkin math with.

You said it yourself, rank is useless, so where the eff do you get off saying that a player with 10 wins 10 losses has no business playing with rank 20 players?

Frustration sets in when a new player is put in a game with a premade of experienced players with TS and practice, not a soloQ with a mixture of ranks.

i honestly don’t think you are seeing the issue clearly enough, or comprehending what is being talked about.

Engels.8537:

Tyler Chapman.1832:

You should be experiencing much smaller rating deviations in games without a terrible sacrifice to queue time.

Ba Da Dun Tss !

Seriously, each 10 games 1 or 2 feels balanced and are fun to play,

The rest are either imposible or boring,

Many times I’ve faced 3 or 4 guys on the same guild with ranks between 40 and 50 against 5 pugs with levels behind 20, (and i’m saying many times),

A random matchmaking would be even better than this, not allowing people to choose their teams, it would be fair at least,

That’s how good is your matchmaking system, worst than random,

I’d like to recomend a handicap system to avoid high queues, but the result would be hilarious take in consideration the actual matchmaking system you did guys,

Sorry if i’m being mean, but it’s the absolute true,

I come to realize that anet caters to premades, you have to realize that the people on sotg are premade players and don’t solo que.

Most of the complaints here are from solo que players and you have premade players coming here saying “oh ya I’m loving the change, I face so many solo que’ers and win now, hope it stays like this forever because I don’t stand a chance against another premade”

uberkingkong.8041:

Engels.8537:

Tyler Chapman.1832:

You should be experiencing much smaller rating deviations in games without a terrible sacrifice to queue time.

Ba Da Dun Tss !

Seriously, each 10 games 1 or 2 feels balanced and are fun to play,

The rest are either imposible or boring,

Many times I’ve faced 3 or 4 guys on the same guild with ranks between 40 and 50 against 5 pugs with levels behind 20, (and i’m saying many times),

A random matchmaking would be even better than this, not allowing people to choose their teams, it would be fair at least,

That’s how good is your matchmaking system, worst than random,

I’d like to recomend a handicap system to avoid high queues, but the result would be hilarious take in consideration the actual matchmaking system you did guys,

Sorry if i’m being mean, but it’s the absolute true,

I come to realize that anet caters to premades, you have to realize that the people on sotg are premade players and don’t solo que.

Most of the complaints here are from solo que players and you have premade players coming here saying “oh ya I’m loving the change, I face so many solo que’ers and win now, hope it stays like this forever because I don’t stand a chance against another premade”

Actually, coming from a player who IS facing those top players, often times they are playing in solo or duo q. I have played against players on the top premade teams but I have NEVER faced a full top premade team.

I think the area of issue is the 70-80% range of rank where premades start to form and bad soloq players remain. Past that range the soloq players are better, communicate and play builds that arent trash and below that players are generally more ‘experimental’ with their builds and there are fewer premades.

This are is especially dicey because as premades from this range get better they start going up, but because they face tougher competition its very easy to drop back into the 70-80% range due to a string of loses to better players, while bad players can get carried pretty easily into the 70-80% range where they dont belong and they finally are too much a burden that the team cant overcome it.

To counter your statement, I think its not premade players that are happy with how its going because they are beating soloq players, but bad soloq players that think they are better then they really are losing games and not liking it.

Edit: I am in top 90%+ on both this account and my alt account.

Parisalchuk.9230:

uberkingkong.8041:

Engels.8537:

Tyler Chapman.1832:

You should be experiencing much smaller rating deviations in games without a terrible sacrifice to queue time.

Ba Da Dun Tss !

Seriously, each 10 games 1 or 2 feels balanced and are fun to play,

The rest are either imposible or boring,

Many times I’ve faced 3 or 4 guys on the same guild with ranks between 40 and 50 against 5 pugs with levels behind 20, (and i’m saying many times),

A random matchmaking would be even better than this, not allowing people to choose their teams, it would be fair at least,

That’s how good is your matchmaking system, worst than random,

I’d like to recomend a handicap system to avoid high queues, but the result would be hilarious take in consideration the actual matchmaking system you did guys,

Sorry if i’m being mean, but it’s the absolute true,

I come to realize that anet caters to premades, you have to realize that the people on sotg are premade players and don’t solo que.

Most of the complaints here are from solo que players and you have premade players coming here saying “oh ya I’m loving the change, I face so many solo que’ers and win now, hope it stays like this forever because I don’t stand a chance against another premade”

Actually, coming from a player who IS facing those top players, often times they are playing in solo or duo q. I have played against players on the top premade teams but I have NEVER faced a full top premade team.

I think the area of issue is the 70-80% range of rank where premades start to form and bad soloq players remain. Past that range the soloq players are better, communicate and play builds that arent trash and below that players are generally more ‘experimental’ with their builds and there are fewer premades.

This are is especially dicey because as premades from this range get better they start going up, but because they face tougher competition its very easy to drop back into the 70-80% range due to a string of loses to better players, while bad players can get carried pretty easily into the 70-80% range where they dont belong and they finally are too much a burden that the team cant overcome it.

To counter your statement, I think its not premade players that are happy with how its going because they are beating soloq players, but bad soloq players that think they are better then they really are losing games and not liking it.

Edit: I am in top 90%+ on both this account and my alt account.

^^ Got to love biased opinions ^^

I think that if you want to have a bigger chance at soloqueue, you should go bunker. I recall having an easier time as a bunker engineer than as a warrior roamer.

Engels.8537:

Parisalchuk.9230:

uberkingkong.8041:

Engels.8537:

Tyler Chapman.1832:

You should be experiencing much smaller rating deviations in games without a terrible sacrifice to queue time.

Ba Da Dun Tss !

Seriously, each 10 games 1 or 2 feels balanced and are fun to play,

The rest are either imposible or boring,

Many times I’ve faced 3 or 4 guys on the same guild with ranks between 40 and 50 against 5 pugs with levels behind 20, (and i’m saying many times),

A random matchmaking would be even better than this, not allowing people to choose their teams, it would be fair at least,

That’s how good is your matchmaking system, worst than random,

I’d like to recomend a handicap system to avoid high queues, but the result would be hilarious take in consideration the actual matchmaking system you did guys,

Sorry if i’m being mean, but it’s the absolute true,

I come to realize that anet caters to premades, you have to realize that the people on sotg are premade players and don’t solo que.

Most of the complaints here are from solo que players and you have premade players coming here saying “oh ya I’m loving the change, I face so many solo que’ers and win now, hope it stays like this forever because I don’t stand a chance against another premade”

Actually, coming from a player who IS facing those top players, often times they are playing in solo or duo q. I have played against players on the top premade teams but I have NEVER faced a full top premade team.

I think the area of issue is the 70-80% range of rank where premades start to form and bad soloq players remain. Past that range the soloq players are better, communicate and play builds that arent trash and below that players are generally more ‘experimental’ with their builds and there are fewer premades.

This are is especially dicey because as premades from this range get better they start going up, but because they face tougher competition its very easy to drop back into the 70-80% range due to a string of loses to better players, while bad players can get carried pretty easily into the 70-80% range where they dont belong and they finally are too much a burden that the team cant overcome it.

To counter your statement, I think its not premade players that are happy with how its going because they are beating soloq players, but bad soloq players that think they are better then they really are losing games and not liking it.

Edit: I am in top 90%+ on both this account and my alt account.

^^ Got to love biased opinions ^^

And its biased why? I was that player. When leaderboards where introduced I played my old builds, thought I would still be good and fell to 50% leaderboard. Quickly raised because at low ranks its mainly soloq vs soloq. Got to 70-80% and was fianlly forced to review my build and become an actual good player. Then joined a new team of people of around the same skill level, we bounced around until we finally started to play better as a premade and moved into the 90% range and have since stabilized there (the update has only made it that much better with regards to stabilizing position rather than some huge influx because we lost 2 games).

When were the times I was anti match making and getting frustrated? When I was forced to consider what I was doing and stopped blaming everyone else on the team as the reason we lost. When was that during the 65-70-80% ranges. Im willing to bet if you found the vast majority of players who are complaining about balance they would fall in that rating range. That range is a transitional range, its going to be tough and there are going to be mismatches.

People get to caught up in little numbers next to each others name as an indication of skill, both the rank and the points total. As an example – my Rank 7 alt account is rated 990 right now in NA.

So… you moved AFTER getting on a premade, right?

That means that players might need to get an organized team to become good. Then there is still a problem in playing tourneys as solo queue.
2 problems: you might end up in a bad team composition (e.g.: no bunkers). And organizing is harder: people can communicate only where they are dead. Before that, they are fighting. This without voice chat.

And there’s also the build problem: to make a good build you have to choose a role and adapt to it. In solo queue that role might be useless. Not in a team. Or you go and play a bunker. And then you don’t learn much, for you will be knowing only one part of the game.

redslion.9675:

So… you moved AFTER getting on a premade, right?

That means that players might need to get an organized team to become good. Then there is still a problem in playing tourneys as solo queue.
2 problems: you might end up in a bad team composition (e.g.: no bunkers). And organizing is harder: people can communicate only where they are dead. Before that, they are fighting. This without voice chat.

And there’s also the build problem: to make a good build you have to choose a role and adapt to it. In solo queue that role might be useless. Not in a team. Or you go and play a bunker. And then you don’t learn much, for you will be knowing only one part of the game.

Im not doubting that issue. Im not doubting that a split of soloq and premades should be created. But to say that match making isnt working is an incorrect statement. People of similar ranks are still being put together and facing against a team of other similar ranks.

The issue is that in the range I have identified there is a MASSIVE variance in skill. Good players drop due to a string of bad games. Bad players rise because they are carried, they then meet and the match goes south for one team. Its not Anets fault that a bad got carried or good players had an off night.

EDIT: I also joined the premade when I was around 80%. At that point I had changed builds to a more meta build and actually learned the map and how the game is played in a tournament setting now. However at that time I would still drop to 60% on a bad night and could rise to 85% on a good night. Since creating a premade we have since stabilized at the 90% – top 1000 grouping where solo players are fine by themselves and teams are generally around the same. As always there are matches that go poorly or that are easy, but 9/10 the game is close.

Ok, got it.

I’m one of those trying to come out with its own build… Let’s see if that will help me or not.

However, how did you manage to learn the map? I mean… when I play solo queue, there is no recognizable strategy, and it’s hard to understand what strategy did the enemy use.

I still don’t know whether I know or don’t know if I really know how maps work.

redslion.9675:

Ok, got it.

I’m one of those trying to come out with its own build… Let’s see if that will help me or not.

However, how did you manage to learn the map? I mean… when I play solo queue, there is no recognizable strategy, and it’s hard to understand what strategy did the enemy use.

I still don’t know whether I know or don’t know if I really know how maps work.

Learn the fastest ways to get from point A to point B. Learn the mechanics of all the secondary objectives and figure out when the optimal time to use them are. Learn the viewing spots to get optimal view coverage of your enemy. All of this can be done solo.

When playing soloq what I found worked best was to just pick a role and play it. To often when I face a bad soloq team its 5 players each trying to ‘win’ the game on their own. They move from point to point trying to cap it and get frustrated with the rest of the team when they lose a point. I play as a BM ranger and when soloq-ing I will either bunker home, or if another pug says he is going to do that I will assault far point. Even without communication your team is now less of a zerg and stands a better chance to be in proper position.

Now to this community of the forum…….

The real question for everyone though is why PvP, and thats a legitimate question. If your answer is to raise on the ladder then you need to adapt your build and play style to the most complement common soloq players – i.e. play bunker as most soloq players play roamers or team fighters. Learn multiple builds so that before the match starts you can change to a different class to give your team a better comp.

If you answer is to join a premade team and do things like 3rd party tournaments or Mist League then pick the role you are interested in an when soloq-ing ALWAYS play that role. Get better at that role and then use your resources to tryout for a team. There are plenty of teams recruiting (my team just recruited 2 new players) and many places to look. If you cant find a team your not trying.

If you are trying to rank up…. your in the wrong place. Hot join will rank you up so much faster.

If your answer is “fun” and doesnt fall under those categories then your never going to have “fun” right now, and thats ok. The game just isnt ment for you. Sorry you spent your money on it, but its time to move on. There are plenty of us who are enjoying ourselves here and arent crying for massive earth shattering changes because the game isnt what YOU had hoped. There are flaws (soloq and teams need to be split, but they are working on it… we dont need to keep complaining about it) but if the game is so bad that you need to troll a forum to let out your frustrations then you are never going to be happy, so why are you here?

Parisalchuk.9230:

If you answer is to join a premade team and do things like 3rd party tournaments or Mist League then pick the role you are interested in an when soloq-ing ALWAYS play that role.

If you are trying to rank up…. your in the wrong place. Hot join will rank you up so much faster.

If your answer is “fun” and doesnt fall under those categories then your never going to have “fun” right now, and thats ok. The game just isnt ment for you. Sorry you spent your money on it, but its time to move on.

Your answer honestly shocked me,

Do you play to rank up despite being an awful experience?

Do you play tournaments to earn money?

It’s a game, it’s meant to give you fun…

And to be fun a game needs to be fair to both parts…

I play for fun dude, don’t you?

My god is necessary to explain those things?

what’s wrong with those people…

PD: And don’t tell me the majority of the community is enjoying Spvp… I’m completly sure not even the 1% of the community play it,

Engels.8537:

Parisalchuk.9230:

If you answer is to join a premade team and do things like 3rd party tournaments or Mist League then pick the role you are interested in an when soloq-ing ALWAYS play that role.

If you are trying to rank up…. your in the wrong place. Hot join will rank you up so much faster.

If your answer is “fun” and doesnt fall under those categories then your never going to have “fun” right now, and thats ok. The game just isnt ment for you. Sorry you spent your money on it, but its time to move on.

Your answer honestly shocked me,

Do you play to rank up despite being an awful experience?

Do you play tournaments to earn money?

It’s a game, it’s meant to give you fun…

And to be fun a game needs to be fair to both parts…

I play for fun dude, don’t you?

My god is necessary to explain those things?

what’s wrong with those people…

PD: And don’t tell me the majority of the community is enjoying Spvp… I’m completly sure not even the 1% of the community play it,

You miss the point entirely. GW2 pvp is considered fun for the reason I outlined. If you are playing for ‘fun’ and not having it then your not going to have a good time, and complaining isnt going to help as the direction of this game is not moving the way you want it to and it will not move that way.

Fact is the GW2 community doesnt have to like PvP, they are still playing the game over in PvE. The GW2 PvP community has to enjoy it if they are to remain playing. Anet is a unique spot that they can tailor the game to their tastes to offer to a wider range of gamers. Those interested in GW1 style pvp are going to continue to play GW1 style pvp over in GW1. They can then use GW2 to cater to a different type of player base. So again, if you arent enjoying GW2 pvp, then move on. Is this truly that hard of a concept to grasp?

To answer your question, by the way;

I dont play PvP at all to rank up. Ranking up is a side effect of me playing in tournaments which… contrary to the vocal group on this forum… is quite enjoyable.

I dont play tournaments to earn money. This is a game for me, not an occupation. I work during the day so that I can enjoy playing at night. I do tournaments for the thrill of challenge.

The game doesnt need to “pay out” to be fun, it needs to have a good core concept and a community to play with… and while the community of people who actually play the game and not sit on the forum whining about everything they dont like may be small, we do exist.

But… what about roamers? Isn’t their role bound to the vocal chat?

Also team fighters: without a lined-out strategy, they’ll have more problems.

Ah, last thing: is a warrior a good far point assaulter in your opinion (especially with a damage build with high armor/HP)?

Hopefully they fix matchmaking soon.

The gw2 pvp scene desperately needs new players. Not going to succeed as an “esport” without the average player who enjoys queuing up for a couple games everyday. Those are the people who watch top level teams and give viewership numbers to tournaments.

I know for a fact that more people would be interested in gw2 pvp if when they que’d up for spvp they were guaranteed a reasonably fun and even match.
This game is actually alot of fun when both teams are near even, but extremely not fun when a team is significantly better or worse than yours.

I’ve played with rank1 players while I was ranked in top1000. I fail to see how someone can be in top1000 while being rank 1. (he hasn’t played more than 5 games or so)
The matchmaking is currently the same joke as it was before. Make a different leaderboard for premades and then we can start off something.