Guild Wars 2

Why not improve the capabilities of the Moa form itself? So that the player while still at a MASSIVE disadvantage while in moa form can atleast make a more significant struggle. Especially considering the potential duration of the dreaded double Moa.

Increase the range on the 2 skill so that it can leap further distances.

Increase the animation speed of the 3 skill and increase its damage slightly.

Add a daze effect to the 4 skill (The screech) for the duration that the player is rooted during the cast.

This way the player while loosing access to his weapons, utilties, elite and even his class mechanic. Can still have an impact even if its just as a more “Significant” annoyance.

What do yall think?

I approve, but only because I love the idea of a freshly Moa’d player turning around and pecking the enemy Mesmer to death.

Eastcorn.5901:

I approve, but only because I love the idea of a freshly Moa’d player turning around and pecking the enemy Mesmer to death.

That may or may not have had some effect on my reasoning “cough”

wll we saw ROM in moa pecking Frostball in Sam’s account in the last match until he kills him^^

I will like to see also stability and/or resistance on moa changed player for the duration of morf.

pico.6402:

I will like to see also stability and/or resistance on moa changed player for the duration of morf.

Also superspeed and a GIANT FRICKEN LAZER!

I like that idea.

Continuum split moas should have a 50% chance to cause rampage instead, but still in moa form.

Moa 5: add stunbreak and 5sec superspeed.
Daze on shriek is fine.
Also buff the leap.

nerf all elites, no only moa

Yeah I think that is the best solution in the end: the reality of pvp at the start of the game is different than now and yet moa skills have never been upgraded or modified

So would these changes work for you? How about the mesmer mains here? Feel free to speak up. How would you feel if the person you Moa’d had more capability to be annoying while moad. Still locked out of the things they are currently locked out of. But more likely to be able to disrupt you and your team if you get overconfident.

Shadelang.3012:

So would these changes work for you? How about the mesmer mains here? Feel free to speak up. How would you feel if the person you Moa’d had more capability to be annoying while moad. Still locked out of the things they are currently locked out of. But more likely to be able to disrupt you and your team if you get overconfident.

I main mesmer and U can see my earlier post. I think it will be easies way to make something about cs-moa complains.

What about not more power for the moa’d player but a huge boost in defense (condi and power damages). In that case Moa would be more an unbalancing factor in fight, transforming 2v1 into a 1v1. So thief would be a +1 class while mesmers would be a “-1” one.
If the fight is already a 1v1 then using it would not be a wise choice.

This would certainly be the most fun way to tackle Moa Morph. Daze on screech should definitely be a thing. Faster pecking and a longer YOLO leap would also be a lot of fun.

Rampage Moa sounds perfect

Moa should have Distortion in that case.

You all realize that being polymorphed is supposed to be bad and lead to your demise. Could it use some balancing, sure (e.g. perhaps reduce the polymorph time and cd to match). So, adding benefits to being polymorphed is an oxymoron. Furthermore, no one likes being transformed at all, in the end, adding “benefits” to polymorphed state will probably not alleviate all the complaining by the “polymorphee(s)” anyway.

Hihi a break bar for Moas …

No double moa should not exist. Lets not do this song and dance its totally overpowered.

Soothsayer.9206:

You all realize that being polymorphed is supposed to be bad and lead to your demise. Could it use some balancing, sure (e.g. perhaps reduce the polymorph time and cd to match). So, adding benefits to being polymorphed is an oxymoron. Furthermore, no one likes being transformed at all, in the end, adding “benefits” to polymorphed state will probably not alleviate all the complaining by the “polymorphee(s)” anyway.

Hahaha. The thing is I don’t give a kitten about the complaints of the Polymorphee.. All I am seeing is valid concerns about the use of double elites. However the only one that is truly out of line is the Moa. My main reason for this was to find a way to balance out the effects of double moa without doing something that would cause harm to the playstyle of the mesmer himself.

It still IS a bad thing even with changes to the moa itself. You lose your weapons. Your utility skills. Your class mechanics. All those traits that keep you alive. There all gone. Adding a Minor ability to fight back against it is well in line with how Moa already works. It still has attacks and movement skills. All I am suggesting is a change to the forms skills. Not how the Moa itself will affect the player.

When using this as a coordianted gank method. The player is gonna be just as dead whether he recieves these buffs or not. All these changes would do would give the moa’d player a chance to fight back once there hit by it.

My goal was to make moa Slightly less of a “I Win” button outside of coordinated burst situations without harming the mesmers ability to Moa or the frequency at which it CAN Moa.

Why not make it transform in an animal with the same mechanics as the class ?

Like thief in panthers, rev in smokeScale, pewpew in bristlebacks, warriors in boars, and so on ?

Or make Moa similar to sheep from a certain other Mmo where damage to the polymorphed player would break the polymorph.

Shadelang.3012:

Hahaha. The thing is I don’t give a kitten about the complaints of the Polymorphee.. All I am seeing is valid concerns about the use of double elites. However the only one that is truly out of line is the Moa. My main reason for this was to find a way to balance out the effects of double moa without doing something that would cause harm to the playstyle of the mesmer himself.

It still IS a bad thing even with changes to the moa itself. You lose your weapons. Your utility skills. Your class mechanics. All those traits that keep you alive. There all gone. Adding a Minor ability to fight back against it is well in line with how Moa already works. It still has attacks and movement skills. All I am suggesting is a change to the forms skills. Not how the Moa itself will affect the player.

When using this as a coordianted gank method. The player is gonna be just as dead whether he recieves these buffs or not. All these changes would do would give the moa’d player a chance to fight back once there hit by it.

My goal was to make moa Slightly less of a “I Win” button outside of coordinated burst situations without harming the mesmers ability to Moa or the frequency at which it CAN Moa.

Good sayed. That’s why I think that giving a resistance to moa will be good idea. Condi mes (meta now) will need to choose when to use it and moa will not be a “win button” skill in 1v1

Why not delete that broken ability much skill much wow

Shadelang.3012:

Soothsayer.9206:

You all realize that being polymorphed is supposed to be bad and lead to your demise. Could it use some balancing, sure (e.g. perhaps reduce the polymorph time and cd to match). So, adding benefits to being polymorphed is an oxymoron. Furthermore, no one likes being transformed at all, in the end, adding “benefits” to polymorphed state will probably not alleviate all the complaining by the “polymorphee(s)” anyway.

Hahaha. The thing is I don’t give a kitten about the complaints of the Polymorphee.. All I am seeing is valid concerns about the use of double elites. However the only one that is truly out of line is the Moa. My main reason for this was to find a way to balance out the effects of double moa without doing something that would cause harm to the playstyle of the mesmer himself.

It still IS a bad thing even with changes to the moa itself. You lose your weapons. Your utility skills. Your class mechanics. All those traits that keep you alive. There all gone. Adding a Minor ability to fight back against it is well in line with how Moa already works. It still has attacks and movement skills. All I am suggesting is a change to the forms skills. Not how the Moa itself will affect the player.

When using this as a coordianted gank method. The player is gonna be just as dead whether he recieves these buffs or not. All these changes would do would give the moa’d player a chance to fight back once there hit by it.

My goal was to make moa Slightly less of a “I Win” button outside of coordinated burst situations without harming the mesmers ability to Moa or the frequency at which it CAN Moa.

It’s hardly an “I win” button, ask experienced players, they will tell you the same thing. I run a condi Mesmer, and have been for 3+ yrs. Yet, I don’t like Moa because cast time; in addition, it can also be blocked, dodged, evaded, etc. I don’t like the odds in such a high paced environment. Plus, I don’t think you lose all your trait line effects, you lose you primary abilities, but your trait lines, bonuses and such are still active – I believe.

Furthermore, when it hits, if it’s a team situation, you will more than most likely die, but even then it’s not a 100% guarantee. If it’s 1v1, your chances of survival go up as most Mesmers just don’t have enough to take you down immediately unless you are already close to dead. It is not a guaranteed kill.

So then, rewarding people who are polymorphed is hardly a solution; remember the effects are supposed to be negative to an enemy. Could it use some balancing, sure. I just don’t see how giving your enemy boons or extra abilities makes it negative; on the contrary, it makes it entirely survivable which is contrary to what it is supposed to do.

It’s more than a double elite problem, no one is complaining about double Mass Invisibility, or double Time Warp or double regular utilities (yet). All of this fuss is over Moa, before this season, no one cared about Continuum Shift. It was the double Moa that put this discussion in full view.

@Soothsayer I started to make an initial reply but it ended up garbled and obnoxious to read so im just gonna start over and do this paragraph by paragraph.

While its true that its possible to survive while in Moa. The harshest part of moa is that there is no way to break the form. Unlike every other elite skill in the game once you are actually under its effects your trapped in it. Lich, Rampage, and Dragons Maw for example are all high profile elites with potentially similar levels of impact on the field. What these and all other elites have in common is that these can be interacted with and broken free of AFTER they have begun. Moa is the only exception out of our entire list of elite skills. Also to claim that the animation cast time is a major drawback is kind of silly. As that 1 second animation is often EASILY covered by the general havoc of team fights…and stealth.

As for blocks blinds and dodges. Most other elites also have those drawbacks and the ones that don’t have OTHER weaknesses. Moa isn’t special here. Don’t try to act like it is.

In your next paragraph you admit that Moa will most likely result in the targets death in a team fight. While I agree that its not 100%. When it comes to coordinated bursts its pretty kitten close. Moa has LONG had a reputation as a bunker killer. In the past it and lich form were the primary methods of nuking down bunkers in the old metas. But that isn’t relevant to the discussion so I won’t go into detail and waste both our times and that of other people that have to read this. As for mesmers not having enough to take you down. Getting moa’d when you have 12 stacks of torment on you is a death sentence. You WILL be running away when its active.

On your third paragraph you insinuate that being Polymorphed would somehow magically be a positive thing for the victim with these changes. Which… Well I honestly can’t believe you tried to take that stance. You lose your defensive traits, your class mechanics, your weapon skills, Your control skills, you utility skills, and even your elite skills. Even PRETENDING that giving a SLIGHTLY improved toolset to the victim when under the effects of what amounts to an unbreakable control skill will somehow make them able to fight even CLOSE to evenly with the caster is ludicrous. And its not giving them extra abilities. Its improving outdated ones that weren’t adjusted with the flow of the game. Just like ANY skill has to be to stay relevant.

As for your last point in that paragraph. Moa form last I checked was to remove someone as a significant threat. Even with the changes it will do exactly that. A skill that completely removes a player form the game is unhealthy. Leaving them with A tool to disrupt the flow of battle is perfectly in order. Im not saying Moa should get 5x its current HP with loads of toughness stability and resistance. You should still be vulnerable. But not necessarily completely unable to act. (And with its current skill set most of those skills might as well not exist).

On to your last paragraph. “It’s more than a double elite problem”….okay whats the problem then you don’t clarify here at all.

“No one is complaining about double Mass Invisibilty, or double Time Warp or the double regular utilities.” Yes because being hit by those doesn’t make you completely unable to interact with the field for massive amounts of time with 0 ability to break out of it. Unless your suggesting we make moa stunbreakable. Lol id love to see how the rest of the community likes THAT idea.

“All of this fuss is over Moa, Before this season. no one cared about continuum shift.”…I am glad we agree? Thats kind of the entire point of my OP? Thank you?

“It was the double Moa that put this discussion in full view”. Again im glad we could see eye to eye?

Meh, moa on core mesmer is fine, leave it alone. I nearly always take mass invisibility over moa because of the huge cooldown on moa.

I’ll repeat: the problem is with double moa; i.e. Continuum Split + Elites.

Shadelang.3012:

@Soothsayer I started to make an initial reply but it ended up garbled and obnoxious to read so im just gonna start over and do this paragraph by paragraph.

While its true that its possible to survive while in Moa. The harshest part of moa is that there is no way to break the form. Unlike every other elite skill in the game once you are actually under its effects your trapped in it. Lich, Rampage, and Dragons Maw for example are all high profile elites with potentially similar levels of impact on the field. What these and all other elites have in common is that these can be interacted with and broken free of AFTER they have begun. Moa is the only exception out of our entire list of elite skills. Also to claim that the animation cast time is a major drawback is kind of silly. As that 1 second animation is often EASILY covered by the general havoc of team fights…and stealth.

As for blocks blinds and dodges. Most other elites also have those drawbacks and the ones that don’t have OTHER weaknesses. Moa isn’t special here. Don’t try to act like it is.

In your next paragraph you admit that Moa will most likely result in the targets death in a team fight. While I agree that its not 100%. When it comes to coordinated bursts its pretty kitten close. Moa has LONG had a reputation as a bunker killer. In the past it and lich form were the primary methods of nuking down bunkers in the old metas. But that isn’t relevant to the discussion so I won’t go into detail and waste both our times and that of other people that have to read this. As for mesmers not having enough to take you down. Getting moa’d when you have 12 stacks of torment on you is a death sentence. You WILL be running away when its active.

On your third paragraph you insinuate that being Polymorphed would somehow magically be a positive thing for the victim with these changes. Which… Well I honestly can’t believe you tried to take that stance. You lose your defensive traits, your class mechanics, your weapon skills, Your control skills, you utility skills, and even your elite skills. Even PRETENDING that giving a SLIGHTLY improved toolset to the victim when under the effects of what amounts to an unbreakable control skill will somehow make them able to fight even CLOSE to evenly with the caster is ludicrous. And its not giving them extra abilities. Its improving outdated ones that weren’t adjusted with the flow of the game. Just like ANY skill has to be to stay relevant.

As for your last point in that paragraph. Moa form last I checked was to remove someone as a significant threat. Even with the changes it will do exactly that. A skill that completely removes a player form the game is unhealthy. Leaving them with A tool to disrupt the flow of battle is perfectly in order. Im not saying Moa should get 5x its current HP with loads of toughness stability and resistance. You should still be vulnerable. But not necessarily completely unable to act. (And with its current skill set most of those skills might as well not exist).

On to your last paragraph. “It’s more than a double elite problem”….okay whats the problem then you don’t clarify here at all.

“No one is complaining about double Mass Invisibilty, or double Time Warp or the double regular utilities.” Yes because being hit by those doesn’t make you completely unable to interact with the field for massive amounts of time with 0 ability to break out of it. Unless your suggesting we make moa stunbreakable. Lol id love to see how the rest of the community likes THAT idea.

“All of this fuss is over Moa, Before this season. no one cared about continuum shift.”…I am glad we agree? Thats kind of the entire point of my OP? Thank you?

“It was the double Moa that put this discussion in full view”. Again im glad we could see eye to eye?

1st, you aren’t meant to survive Moa. The transformation is supposed to be negative, could it use some balance, sure. My point is simply, it’s meant to kill your opponent. Giving your opponent access to extra utils, boons, health, etc. entirely defeats the purpose of equipping it and using it offensively.

As far as being a bunker killer, again, this util is by design supposed to get your opponent killed. Even if you land it on a bunker, it will probably not result in a bunkers death, he does not lose his traits, toughness, power etc. People kill in Moa all the time so it’s not a guaranteed kill when it does hit. But giving someone access to health, boons, etc. again defeats the purpose of being transformed, namely the demise of your opponent.
Moa doesn’t remove a player completely from the game, 10 seconds (could it be adjusted, sure, not saying it couldn’t be tweaked) of polymorph may get your enemy killed, he might kill you the Mesmer, he probably will disengage until the transformation is over, but he is certainly not out of the game so that’s an overstatement.

The problem is not CS, or perhaps even Moa itself which has existed since launch, the problem stems from perception – no one likes being polymorphed, no one. So, no matter what you propose, no matter how “balanced” Moa might become, the problem remains, people don’t like getting morphed and that’s why we are posting here now whether you recognize this or not, this is the entire reason. Even if all your proposed changes are implemented, people will still complain. Why, because they will not like being benign for the duration of the polymorph – which is the point – it’s meant to get you killed, to disengage, etc.

If no one cared about CS, Moa, double elites before now, why is there so much complaining? That’s my point. Could some of this use some tweaking, probably. The point is that no one cared until it happened to them. Now, everyone is fretting over it because they feel like its so op and they just don’t like it. It was already there, people were using it, and no one said anything. Now that Mesmer is “meta” (not everyone agrees about the Mesmer being meta – it’s mostly a portal/moa bot) it gets attention because no one wants to be polymorphed. In my estimation, that’s really what this is about, a skill that takes you out for 10 seconds which has been there since launch. Not saying it couldn’t use some attention, just saying all of this is for something that has always been a staple in the Mesmer kitten nal.

Stun breakable is an interesting option, but I haven’t given it much thought, I don’t run it on my condi/shatter (I used to when I focused more on dueling). So I have no thoughts there on that. My points are simple: 1) Could Moa use some tweaking, perhaps. 2) Moa is meant to get your opponent killed so its silly in my estimation to make it more survivable. 3) No one likes to get polymorphed so no matter what happens to it, people will always complain (btw, engineers can polymorph moa too, had it happen to me not a few times this season so I can’t wait until it catches up with them).

Or make Moa 5s long?

I think if you gave moa a lil more toughness and some more health and possibly a stun break moa would be closer to where it was pre-hot…the main problem with moa atm isnt moa but the powercreep that made moa with any decent team an instakill…too much cc and damage atm

Chase.2798:

I think if you gave moa a lil more toughness and some more health and possibly a stun break moa would be closer to where it was pre-hot…

So, unused.

XD

Ross Biddle.2367:

Chase.2798:

I think if you gave moa a lil more toughness and some more health and possibly a stun break moa would be closer to where it was pre-hot…

So, unused.

XD

So its not an insta-kill now which it should be with any descent team in a team fight
Edit: notice i said closer and not the same too btw

Chase.2798:

Ross Biddle.2367:

Chase.2798:

I think if you gave moa a lil more toughness and some more health and possibly a stun break moa would be closer to where it was pre-hot…

So, unused.

XD

So its not an insta-kill now which it should be with any descent team in a team fight
Edit: notice i said closer and not the same too btw

It’s not insta kill now. So it’d be even less insta kill with boons, stabos, stun breaks etc. Thus..

Unused.

Ross Biddle.2367:

Chase.2798:

Ross Biddle.2367:

Chase.2798:

I think if you gave moa a lil more toughness and some more health and possibly a stun break moa would be closer to where it was pre-hot…

So, unused.

XD

So its not an insta-kill now which it should be with any descent team in a team fight
Edit: notice i said closer and not the same too btw

It’s not insta kill now. So it’d be even less insta kill with boons, stabos, stun breaks etc. Thus..

Unused.

I didnt say boons, stabos? Or stunbreakS i said 1 stun break and like 5 % more health and toughness….and with a decent team anything without healing and no stun breaks, blocks, or any form of defense should be a kill…

Shadelang.3012:

Why not improve the capabilities of the Moa form itself? So that the player while still at a MASSIVE disadvantage while in moa form can atleast make a more significant struggle. Especially considering the potential duration of the dreaded double Moa.

Increase the range on the 2 skill so that it can leap further distances.

Increase the animation speed of the 3 skill and increase its damage slightly.

Add a daze effect to the 4 skill (The screech) for the duration that the player is rooted during the cast.

This way the player while loosing access to his weapons, utilties, elite and even his class mechanic. Can still have an impact even if its just as a more “Significant” annoyance.

What do yall think?

The reason for nerfing double moa specifically is to not destroy normal mesmer more than it already is, whilst at the same time nerfing chronomancer. This is why essentially all suggestions that involve a blanket moa nerf should either not be applied at all, or be implemented in conjunction with a continuum split moa nerf (If it turns out that moa is still op without CS).

TL;DR I think it’s bad.

I feel like everyone asking for a Mesmer nerf needs to post what profession they play and what build they have.

Seriously, it’s so easy to get away once moa’d that it really surprised me that there are this many baddies complaining. You guys have skill 5 and 3 to get away + dodges to survive. I honestly don’t remember that last time that I died when moa’d.

@Soothsayer. The part about “You aren’t meant to survive Moa” is kind of concerning for me on a mentallity level. Because as far as my understanding of the skill goes. Its purpose is to remove a specific target as a significant threat. Not necessarily kill them. That as far as I can tell and have read is why it was allowed to have no way of breaking the transformation once struck by it. What that tells me is that it was be design meant to be survivable. And have a significant chance of doing so outside of a coordinated gank scenario. You use Moa on either the high profile threat in the fight to stop them from having an impact or someone who is ALREADY vulnerable and unable to act against it.

I feel part of our disagreement is on what the purpose of the skill is. In my eyes its a very powerful control skill. It has zero damage component built into it which allows for it to be unbreakable. Any damage the Moa’d player takes has to come from follow up skills. And the Moa’d player is SUPPOSED to have the ability to fight back to some degree against it.

Atleast thats as far as my own personal understanding of the skill goes. I don’t believe I have seen a developer post on its intended purpose before. If you have one though please link it for me it would likely make this discussion ALOT simpler.

My comment on it being a bunker killer was only reffering to its PAST uses. I even said I wasn’t going into details because the discussion was a waste of time and I was only using it as an example. I feel how it is currently being used is much more in line with what I believe to be its intended purpose. A method of removing a target as a threat for a specific amount of time.

When I say to remove a player from the game. I don’t mean something like phasing him out of reality. But instead removing him from any significant form of play for a specific period of time. Which I believe is Moa’s intended purpose and I flat out agree with it as a healthy skill.

The issue is with the current double Moa casts that people tend to complain about. Both of us seem to agree that this is the only issue.

As far as I can see there are only a few ways this can change.

Moa gets reduced duration <— this harms the base mesmer as well

Moa gets increased cooldowns <—- this also harms the base mesmer as well

Moa can no longer be reset by continuum split <—- this sets a unpleasent precedent by creating a skill that simply doesn’t function together with a class mechanic and I believe this is the WORST way to go.

Elite skills can no longer be reset by continuum split <—- this hurts the entire chronomancer sub class and harms skills that AREN’T an issue.

Moa can be broken out of. <—- This I feel absolutely should not happen. As it makes this elite skill trivial and will likely render it unused. The only case in which this MIGHT be fair is if its another player that has to perform an aoe stunbreak to release the moa’d player. (Something like protect me’s aoe stunbreak on ranger or a tempests air shout). Because that would take coordination between multiple players to pull off.

Or we change something about the Moa itself. This is the direction I am trying to go. It affects both the mesmer and the chronomancer evenly. However it does not HARM either’s ability to use moa or their uptime on moa. Nor does it remove the original purpose of the skill (which as I said I would need to see a red post on the subject to be sure of but from the skills description and its mechanics it SEEMS to be to heavily reduce the impact a specific player has on the fight for a short time).

I desire an answer to a perceived issue that does not shaft either the mesmer or the chronomancer. This is the only direction I can think of that would work.

I would like to propose two changes to reduce the “OPness” of chronomancer which won’t affect core mesmer: 1. Chronomancer should loose the base addition of illusionary persona. 2. We should tie the duration of moa under CS form up to how many illusion were sacrificed for it. Here is what I propose: the duration gain 3 seconds for each illusion that were sacrificed. Of course the duration moa would be unchanged in chronomancer if we don’t use CS with it. Why these changes? As for 1. I believe that mesmers got a lot more viable with the 23rd June patch due to illusionary persona becoming baseline: before they were food for thieves and warriors because warriors would simply cleave illusions before gaining the benefit of shatters and thieves would simply blind or become invisible so mesmers could not summon their clones or phantasms to shatter. Now that illusions gain superspeed on shatters, now that there is a shield with double-block and double-stun, now that there is chronophantasma to double shatter + the gain of alacrity for each shatter, I think illusionary persona should be a mechanism of core mesmers only because the disadvantages mesmers got pre 23rd June patch are covered with the elite spec of mesmers. As for 2. I just think, since it is an elite skill, that it shouldn’t be so much easy to pull off since it can turn a team fight into the favor of a mesmer when used with intelligence. Changing the skills of moa form is too hard to balance in the end, I think

Shadelang.3012:

@Soothsayer. The part about “You aren’t meant to survive Moa” is kind of concerning for me on a mentallity level. Because as far as my understanding of the skill goes. Its purpose is to remove a specific target as a significant threat. Not necessarily kill them. That as far as I can tell and have read is why it was allowed to have no way of breaking the transformation once struck by it. What that tells me is that it was be design meant to be survivable. And have a significant chance of doing so outside of a coordinated gank scenario. You use Moa on either the high profile threat in the fight to stop them from having an impact or someone who is ALREADY vulnerable and unable to act against it.

I feel part of our disagreement is on what the purpose of the skill is. In my eyes its a very powerful control skill. It has zero damage component built into it which allows for it to be unbreakable. Any damage the Moa’d player takes has to come from follow up skills. And the Moa’d player is SUPPOSED to have the ability to fight back to some degree against it.

Atleast thats as far as my own personal understanding of the skill goes. I don’t believe I have seen a developer post on its intended purpose before. If you have one though please link it for me it would likely make this discussion ALOT simpler.

My comment on it being a bunker killer was only reffering to its PAST uses. I even said I wasn’t going into details because the discussion was a waste of time and I was only using it as an example. I feel how it is currently being used is much more in line with what I believe to be its intended purpose. A method of removing a target as a threat for a specific amount of time.

When I say to remove a player from the game. I don’t mean something like phasing him out of reality. But instead removing him from any significant form of play for a specific period of time. Which I believe is Moa’s intended purpose and I flat out agree with it as a healthy skill.

The issue is with the current double Moa casts that people tend to complain about. Both of us seem to agree that this is the only issue.

As far as I can see there are only a few ways this can change.

Moa gets reduced duration <— this harms the base mesmer as well

Moa gets increased cooldowns <—- this also harms the base mesmer as well

Moa can no longer be reset by continuum split <—- this sets a unpleasent precedent by creating a skill that simply doesn’t function together with a class mechanic and I believe this is the WORST way to go.

Elite skills can no longer be reset by continuum split <—- this hurts the entire chronomancer sub class and harms skills that AREN’T an issue.

Moa can be broken out of. <—- This I feel absolutely should not happen. As it makes this elite skill trivial and will likely render it unused. The only case in which this MIGHT be fair is if its another player that has to perform an aoe stunbreak to release the moa’d player. (Something like protect me’s aoe stunbreak on ranger or a tempests air shout). Because that would take coordination between multiple players to pull off.

Or we change something about the Moa itself. This is the direction I am trying to go. It affects both the mesmer and the chronomancer evenly. However it does not HARM either’s ability to use moa or their uptime on moa. Nor does it remove the original purpose of the skill (which as I said I would need to see a red post on the subject to be sure of but from the skills description and its mechanics it SEEMS to be to heavily reduce the impact a specific player has on the fight for a short time).

I desire an answer to a perceived issue that does not shaft either the mesmer or the chronomancer. This is the only direction I can think of that would work.

1) It’s an offensive elite utility – what else is it supposed to do?
2) Could it use some reworking, sure; but buffing/improving the Moa state to make it more survivable essentially defeats the purpose of equipping/using it offensively.
3)People hate Moa because they are transformed and no amount of “balance” will change people’s perception and disdain for it.
4)People who are transformed are temporarily, 10 seconds (not saying it couldn’t use some rework) out of combat but can still fight as a Moa; people kill in Moa form too. The fact that Moa is not an auto kill, doesn’t have a 100% kill rate, says that its survivable, although it’s meant to down your foe.
5)Engineers can Moa too as a secondary application with their elite utility – 2 uses 1 elite (not 2 moas but 2 uses 1 elite) no one is complaining about that, but that may change when people start getting polymorphed by Engineers and realize that it’s not only Mesmers polymorphing(double Moa sometimes may be in fact Mesmer/Engineer combo). Finally, the Engineer line of utils has 2 applications per util because of their Batman like utility belt – not a peep of complaining about a 2 for 1 it’s part of the profession we all have known that since launch.
6)Not saying it could use something, but I do not know what. I don’t use it on my Mesmers any more because I do not focus on dueling – more team oriented now in my own gameplay. If CS gets some rework I cannot see what meaningful form it will take at the expense of the Chrono line altogether. My point is that to many are complaining and all they cry out is: “off with Mesmer’s head!” Moa I don’t know that Mesmers would care a whole lot about Moa tweaking, especially because some of us look at the current “meta” as nothing more than a portal/moa bot.
7)All said and done, we need to tread carefully when we start calling for nerfs/reworks/buffs especially on an opposing profession. The game is already difficult enough to balance and further imbalance with lead to further complaining which may lead to a downward spiral for us all.

@Soothsayer

1) It’s a control utility. Not a direct attack. If it was meant to kill a player. That was what it would do. It CAN lead to a players death. But that is produced by additional affects outside of the use of Moa. What this skill does on its own. Is turn someone into a moa and reduce there ability to interact with the battle around them. That IS what the skill does directly. What players choose to perceive it as has little bearing on the conversation. What they DO with the skill is more relevant. And the skill can be used any number of ways. Not just offensively.

2) Buffing and improving the moa state is the most effective way of reworking the skill without increasing the cooldown or lowering the duration or reworking its animation. I.E. Its the most direct way of tackling a perceived issue without directly harming the mesmers ability to use the skill.

3) I agree that people find it frustrating when there Moa’d And moa will always leave a bad taste in the victims mouth. But it doesn’t actually have to be an unfun skill in general. You CAN make it so that the moa’d player feels less that useless for the duration. The Moa skill should reduce the players ability to interact with the fight. As it is apparently designed to unless a developer wants to step in and correct me. The best way of doing that is by improving the counter play that is presented to the player while under the effects of the skill. The game actually does ive you tools with which to deal with combat. But all but one of them are useless. And even the last one only buys you time hoping that the gank waiting for you got distracted by something else.

4) You continuously refer to the duration in many of your posts. Often hinting that this is where you want any potential rework to take place. But I feel that would cause more harm to the skill that my proposed changes. While it is true that it is not a 100% kill skill. It is a 100% something else skill. It is a 100% decap skill. When under the effects of Moa. You WILL give up the point. The only time a moa kills a mesmer at this time is if the memser is at less that 5% health and is overconfident. In which case he would have died either way.

5) Engineers have NOTHING to do with this for multiple reasons. They can only Moa you ONCE. And there Moa lasts barely enough time to cause the player to panic before it is gone again. It is used more to take people out of transformations than as a control skill. Also its pretty obvious when its an engi moa vs a mesmer moa. For the above stated reason. As for the rest of your post. Again. The engineer has nothing to do with this conversation and I feel like your stretching for justification at this point.

6) Whether you use it or not has no basis on this discussion. Also this isn’t about a CS rework. Im actually trying to AVOID that with this post. I thought you would have realized that by now but your statements at multiple points in your posts say that you don’t. Despite that it was in my OP. The rest of your post is rambling and has little to no basis on the conversation.

7) I…do you STILL not understand the entire point of my OP? I am attempting to do exactly what you stated. Tread carefully. My entire POINT in this post is to find a way to rework this skill so that it is less oppressive while STILL retaining the core usefullness and purpose of the skill and NOT completely destroying the playstyles of both mesmers and chronomancers that have built around it.

Locking a player out of their own skill set for 10 seconds is not acceptable in pvp environments.

Moa needs to be trashed completely.

Swagger.1459:

Locking a player out of their own skill set for 10 seconds is not acceptable in pvp environments.

Moa needs to be trashed completely.

And what would you reccomend? Just taking away an elite skill for an entire class? What would you give them in return? I hope youve got some ideas for elite skills that fulfill similar roles to fill the gap youd create. Ones strong enough to fulfill similar purposes without being so strong we have the same issue.

Or did you just comment without actually putting any thought into it except for your own personnel dislike of the skill?

Okay, whether directly or indirectly, it is meant to be the demise of your opponent. How it accomplishes it is inconsequential. It’s a generalization about the way it is used, nothing more. When you polymorph someone, it’s supposed to be bad for your foe and the fact that it’s success rate for hitting or for getting someone killed is not 100%. Therefore, as annoying as it is, it is not that op – again, over reactions and over statement – Moa has been this way forever.
Buffing a bane to make it more survivable seems to be an oxymoron.
People don’t like being locked down, and worse than that for a period of time that can get them killed – double whammy.
I mention duration because that is generally what seems to be the overall problem, hence is why I mention Engineer because it’s only a 3 second polymorph and no one is complaining. That’s not the only reason I mention Engineer. What most don’t realize that an Engineer can polymorph 3 people at 1 time for 3 seconds each. It doesn’t happen often, but if it does, expect people’s ire to rise significantly. So imagine locking down and killing as many as 3 people at 1 time because of moa (Engi Moa cd 120, range 900, duration 3 seconds number of targets 3).
I also mention I don’t use it on my build for this reason: as an experienced Mesmer I prefer other things that give more stable and team oriented effects. It’s a big risk/reward type of util. Not all Mesmers, of which I am 1, find it so op. If it were that op, every Mesmer would be using it all the time without exception.
The reason I mention CS is that there is no place left to go. Not to mention that everyone wants some sort of change and the most common is that it no longer effects elites of which Moa is 1. The nerf bat is never kind, and the kinds of things that usually follow usually gut rather than balance.

CS can no longer affect elites is the change that needs to happen.

Shadelang.3012:

Swagger.1459:

Locking a player out of their own skill set for 10 seconds is not acceptable in pvp environments.

Moa needs to be trashed completely.

And what would you reccomend? Just taking away an elite skill for an entire class? What would you give them in return? I hope youve got some ideas for elite skills that fulfill similar roles to fill the gap youd create. Ones strong enough to fulfill similar purposes without being so strong we have the same issue.

Or did you just comment without actually putting any thought into it except for your own personnel dislike of the skill?

I don’t care what they change it to, moa doesn’t belong in pvp.

Personal dislike? No, it’s just easy to spot problematic skills and mechanics that aren’t healthy in competitive environments.

I’ve made recommendations to cc in the game, and now I feel moa should go.

Moa is only useful in PvP. That said, I believe many mesmers wouldn’t mind Moa being replaced with something that is more useful in multiple game modes. I was hoping Gravity Well would do that, but Moa just outperforms Gravity Well in pvp.