Guild Wars 2

Malcastus.6240:

Some professions need the extra vigor though, as part of their defense mechanism. Reduce it, and you need to give the professions that rely on it something in exchange, which would result in a lot of reworking. I wouldn’t talk what is in abundance and what not, as it is too huge a subject.

The answer:
Remove all damage sources in the game, THEN remove vigor as it won’t be necessary anymore, and we have a fine flower power game with no violence, just epic frolicking in the fields.

I can do that as well: Let all have infinite dodging and infinite initiative. That way no one will ever have to die, and the game is balanced.
Honestly .. yeah, it is fine, that evading/dodging is a part of the defense-mechanism. When I can instruct my 8yo niece who have never played before to survive by spamming buttons … then it becomes a parody and completely non-situational. That was the line in the sand for me, that defined abundance. Some sort of judgement should be in play.

Mrbig.8019:

Yes.

What’s next ? someone forgot protection, i believe.

Some can have both .. some just use teleports and don’t need any protection. What is there to hit?
I have had some discussions with you before, and you seem reasonable. I used to play BM-ranger, and I for sure know, that some parts of that build is silly to fight against (yes, we are talking 1vs1 or 2vs1-2 mostly, but even so it does matter). Can you in all honesty say, that you don’t know it is the same situation for some thief-builds?

My honest opinion is that some weapon evades do too much. Blurred frenzy is what I see as the borderline (I do believe a 2s invuln should have a longer CD though, 15s to me seems fair), ranger will probably be less of an issue when they can’t just spam evades until their pet kills you.

s/d thief evade to me is just over the top though, especially when combined with the #2 skill. I can handle having to time my big hit for when they’re between evades. I can’t handle the fact that even if I land that big hit he can stunbreak/teleport away, reset the fight and do it all over again. Basically the only way to win this fight is if your opponent is really, really bad.

EDIT: to clarify, I don’t think thieves having a weapon evade is overpowered, I think having a weapon evade that also deals good damage and steals boons leads to gimicky skill less play that is far harder to counter than it is to play. Nerf the damage and I think this skill would be fine, so thieves would have to auto attack or press a button other than 2 and 3 to be successful. I also do not think 2 should break stuns, to me a stunbreak should be something with a cooldown.

I’m sure its been said, but how is not putting in the effort to head off a dodge and land your nukes any more skillful than spamming dodge?

On a related note, I came up with an engy build last night that gives me near infinite dodge uptime :P

Swim.6830:

Myrmidian Eudoros.4671:

Swim.6830:

It’s not every other class. It’s the classes with build in evade in their abilities that probably made you make this thread… such as thieves and rangers.

and Mesmers and Guardians and Eles

You misunderstand. Guardians don’t have an ability that evades in itself. Same for Eles.

No. The context made my point unclear. I should have been more precise.

It is specifically NOT the skills with built in evades only. That is only part of the problem. Built in Invulns (like Mesmer) Built in Blocks (like Guardian) Built in Perma-vigor, heals, cleanses and other goodies on swaps (in this case attunements) and dodgerolls (like Ele) are all problematic.

The line for what PvP classes are functional seems to be tied to who can best spam damage evasions/negations (or just have them passively available) without consequence. As I’ve said before Engineer seems to be the only profession getting a decent amount of play currently that doesn’t have a ridiculous number of defensive mechanics to work with (although one could argue that Automated Response + a very high probability self rezz borders on being comparable in a unique way).

I do agree that a lot of people dodge just for the hell of it.

My spec doesn’t allow me to to access any vigor or endurance refill, so I have 2 dodges and that’s it. I think if you allow yourself to learn to dodge properly instead of random dodging, you would up your game (and reflexes) so much!

Amaterasu.6280:

I do agree that a lot of people dodge just for the hell of it.

My spec doesn’t allow me to to access any vigor or endurance refill, so I have 2 dodges and that’s it. I think if you allow yourself to learn to dodge properly instead of random dodging, you would up your game (and reflexes) so much!

Depends. For a large number of the viable builds currently in play you are crippling yourself by not dodging regularly even if it isn’t warranted. A number of traits incentivize dodgerolling to an extent that outweighs the value of saving that dodge for when it is really necessary. Most builds that focus on high vigor up time are also reliant on key Trait effect that trigger on dodge. For these builds “dodging properly” = dodging frequently.

its funny :P
always something to whine
and its getting always better…

you know?
you can always leave gw2 and look for a sleepy game without dodge mechanic
and with skill cooldown of 2 min

i am sure there are some slow pvp games you can play also

rock-paper-scissor.

instead of complaining, slot a counter. And then, of course, come back and create a thread complaining about the new hole you opened up in your build.

Poxxia.1547:

Mrbig.8019:

Yes.

What’s next ? someone forgot protection, i believe.

Some can have both .. some just use teleports and don’t need any protection. What is there to hit?
I have had some discussions with you before, and you seem reasonable. I used to play BM-ranger, and I for sure know, that some parts of that build is silly to fight against (yes, we are talking 1vs1 or 2vs1-2 mostly, but even so it does matter). Can you in all honesty say, that you don’t know it is the same situation for some thief-builds?

Teleports are not an issue.

The issue here is EVADE EVADE EVADE which is getting silly.

I used to play SB-S/D and i still had to time my dodges due to the teamfight nature of my build ( mostly for shortbow) . I tried double S/D with double sigil of energy and it’s just silly: unless you bomb the field with persistent AoEs ( like engi bombs or symbols) you’ll have your only chance to attack in a 1/3 second between Larcenous strike and the following dodge.

It’s really silly.

And it can be also effective in teamfights due to consistent evades.

That’s the build i play, and i’m not saying it’s IMBA because you can still bring me down somehow and i’m made of glass, but it’s indeed silly.

And when you bring bunkers on the table, it gets even more silly.

I would say to increase energy regen, reduce vigor accessibility and make sigils of energy to restore only 25-30% of energy.

Mrbig.8019:

Poxxia.1547:

Mrbig.8019:

Yes.

What’s next ? someone forgot protection, i believe.

Some can have both .. some just use teleports and don’t need any protection. What is there to hit?
I have had some discussions with you before, and you seem reasonable. I used to play BM-ranger, and I for sure know, that some parts of that build is silly to fight against (yes, we are talking 1vs1 or 2vs1-2 mostly, but even so it does matter). Can you in all honesty say, that you don’t know it is the same situation for some thief-builds?

Teleports are not an issue.
-Seriously thief players…will say anything to protect their little toys-

The issue here is EVADE EVADE EVADE which is getting silly.

I used to play SB-S/D and i still had to time my dodges due to the teamfight nature of my build ( mostly for shortbow) . I tried double S/D with double sigil of energy and it’s just silly: unless you bomb the field with persistent AoEs ( like engi bombs or symbols) you’ll have your only chance to attack in a 1/3 second between Larcenous strike and the following dodge.

It’s really silly.

And it can be also effective in teamfights due to consistent evades.

That’s the build i play, and i’m not saying it’s IMBA because you can still bring me down somehow and i’m made of glass, but it’s indeed silly.

And when you bring bunkers on the table, it gets even more silly.

I would say to increase energy regen, reduce vigor accessibility and make sigils of energy to restore only 25-30% of energy.

Basically nerf everybody else except the real culprit..s/d thieves..oh Mrbig, you really think to be super-smart, the best way is to just re-work the really silly skills like flanking strike and infiltrator strike.
Professions like ele, got a 20s skill which grant vigor and a trait that require us to crit, meaning that at the very least we need to build as hybrid which translate to 1400 toughness-14k HP.

There is no problem against signet of energy users ( thieves-rangers) and no problem against vigor boon users , because clever players won’t waste their burst just because is available, but time their CC and positioning to deliver an effective combo…like a CC applied soon after the first dodge

There is problem against evasive skills incorporated inside the weapon set as they have shorter CD compared to a single dodge, even with vigor up any target can at most still use only 2 dodges and vigor all it does is reduce the time to the third dodge, this means that a noob dodge spammer die just as easily as somebody who doesn’t have vigor in the first place

That s/d thieves want to use sigil of energy got no problem with that, I know you’ll have to wait at least 10s before going back to s/d…flanking strike on other hand can be spammer 3 times in a row plus 2 dodges isn’t that right Mrbig?

Every profession except Warrior and Necromancer have pretty much permanent access to vigor.

- Engineers: vigor on swiftness, random from elixirs, 50% endurance regen via trait
- Elementalist: Renewing Stamina (perma vigor almost), vigorous scepter, plus multiple evades via weapon skills
- Mesmer: Critical Infusion (just like Renewing Stamina) plus multiple invulnerabilities via skills
- Ranger: faster endurance regen, primal reflexes and Vigorous Renewal, plus multiple evades via weapon skills
- Thief: everybody knows
- Guardian: Vigorous Precision (just like Critical Infusion adn Renewing Stamina)

Only Necromancers have no access to any form of active damage mitigation mechanics and ArenaNet doesn’t want to give them some tools because they don’t want them to become OP.
Well, yeah…

sorrow.2364:

Every profession except Warrior and Necromancer have pretty much permanent access to vigor.

Signet of Stamina would like to have a word with you.

Defektive.7283:

sorrow.2364:

Every profession except Warrior and Necromancer have pretty much permanent access to vigor.

Signet of Stamina would like to have a word with you.

Signet of Stamina is not Vigor. +33% regen vs. +100% regen not even close to the same.

If Sigil of Energy could Proc on Warrior’s super fast weapon swaps (ICD prevents this), then Warrior would be on par with high up time vigor classes (only unstoppably by strips), but Signet of Stamina doesn’t even scratch the surface. I’m not advocating this kind of change. Just saying that this obviously bad idea is only equally as bad as what is currently in game for other professions.

Myrmidian Eudoros.4671:

Defektive.7283:

sorrow.2364:

Every profession except Warrior and Necromancer have pretty much permanent access to vigor.

Signet of Stamina would like to have a word with you.

Signet of Stamina is not Vigor. +33% regen vs. +100% regen not even close to the same.

If Sigil of Energy could Proc on Warrior’s super fast weapon swaps (ICD prevents this), then Warrior would be on par with high up time vigor classes (only unstoppably by strips), but Signet of Stamina doesn’t even scratch the surface. I’m not advocating this kind of change. Just saying that this obviously bad idea is only equally as bad as what is currently in game for other professions.

In the past I’ve tested the speed at which SoS vs. Vigor regens. They came out to be the same number. Has this changed since then? Can anyone test this?

Even at +33% regen, that’s 100% uptime and not subjective to boon stripping or maintaining the boon.

jimmyimo.2089:

The entire dodge mechanic- is sincerely buggy. I cannot even tell you how many times I am already diving sideways (“visually”) and I still get hit; the evade should work as soon as you visually start dodging.

The way it is now is hilarious; if you let someone treb you, and actually pay attention to what is happening you will notice the following within 5 tries.

1. If you dodge at the latest moment before impact, you will actually get hit while you’re diving sideways (“visually”).
2. If you dodge way before the impact (“this might take a few tries”), you actually still Evade AFTER the visual animation of a dodge.

TL;DR – The visual animation of a dodge is wrong; it starts too late, and ends too late.

This has always been the case. It isn’t unique to treb, as skill animations don’t exactly happen real time either. I believe it is related to latency. At any rate unless you are really bogged down it shouldn’t be more than a small fraction of a second.

Defektive, as requested I tested with no traits and no sigils (just for control reasons) in the Mists. Ran once with warhorn’s vigor and one with SoS. Did one dodge and waited until the dodge went through and regen started to start counting.

Vigor after 5 tests (which took forever!) came out to be about 6-7 seconds. Probably 6 point something.

SoS came out to be about 8-9 seconds. It’s probably somewhere at 8 because I only got 9 on one test.

That’s what I found.

Ottohi.2871:

Defektive, as requested I tested with no traits and no sigils (just for control reasons) in the Mists. Ran once with warhorn’s vigor and one with SoS. Did one dodge and waited until the dodge went through and regen started to start counting.

Vigor after 5 tests (which took forever!) came out to be about 6-7 seconds. Probably 6 point something.

SoS came out to be about 8-9 seconds. It’s probably somewhere at 8 because I only got 9 on one test.

That’s what I found.

Thanks!
So lets say 6.5s (vigor) vs. 8.5s (SoS)

So if 6.5 = 100% speed increase

Then Vigor is a roughly 70% increase.

The difference here though is that SoS will remain up indefinitely and without outside interruption. So It’s in-combat effectiveness is probably higher over the course of a fight than Vigor.

Arheundel.6451:

Basically nerf everybody else except the real culprit..s/d thieves..oh Mrbig, you really think to be super-smart, the best way is to just re-work the really silly skills like flanking strike and infiltrator strike.
Professions like ele, got a 20s skill which grant vigor and a trait that require us to crit, meaning that at the very least we need to build as hybrid which translate to 1400 toughness-14k HP.

There is no problem against signet of energy users ( thieves-rangers) and no problem against vigor boon users , because clever players won’t waste their burst just because is available, but time their CC and positioning to deliver an effective combo…like a CC applied soon after the first dodge

There is problem against evasive skills incorporated inside the weapon set as they have shorter CD compared to a single dodge, even with vigor up any target can at most still use only 2 dodges and vigor all it does is reduce the time to the third dodge, this means that a noob dodge spammer die just as easily as somebody who doesn’t have vigor in the first place

That s/d thieves want to use sigil of energy got no problem with that, I know you’ll have to wait at least 10s before going back to s/d…flanking strike on other hand can be spammer 3 times in a row plus 2 dodges isn’t that right Mrbig?

Flanking strike is not silly, it’s actually a GOOD skill and nothing else.

Its damage is decent and its only saving grace is the evade. Its boon stripping capabilities are noticable only against boon heavy/little else classes like HGH engies or D/D eles ( and poor warriors of course, against them the skill is failry imba).

Inf strike has been there for ages, even when S/P thieves were common and pistol whip was very , VERY strong ( +15% damage and 100% speed incresing quickness).

Teleports are how thieves play, that’s how old GW assassins played, it’s a different playstyle.

I dislike eles being able to heal istantly the whole party from 30% to 90% with 2 skills, i’m not crying about it.

I dislike guardian skills like Sanctuary because it’s a passive bubble of “you won’t take this point for 6 secs simply because i pressed a button”, yet i’m not crying about it.

What is bad regarding S/D thieves is the possibility to bring double S/D + double energy sigil.

If you try to fight a shortbow-S/D thief ( teamfight version of the build, the one i run) you’ll find that dealing against it is only a matter of timing, because i can’t perma-evade ( no double energy sigil, that are also bugged currently) so i have to time my dodges ACCURATELY.

Attack between flanking -larcenous chain, i’m vulnerable. If i waste my dodge to avoid your attacks meanwhile, you’ve won.

If i teleport back, because i couldn’t win the fight, you’ve won: your allies will come, i won’t take the point.

It may be UNFUN to play against, but it’s not IMBA.

Fun is subjective: as i said, i hate eles because they heal too much in cleric, i hate guardians because they block too much, i hate mesmers because they MOA etc etc.

You should start to grow up and stop acting like a kid: balance should be achieved for tPvP and nothing else.

Something may be unfun to play against, but ineffective in high end PvP: that’s the case for 80% of thief builds.

Dodge spamming is unfun for everyone, and imba in certain cases, and should be addressed.

Absolutely agree.
Dodge is not a game defining feature by itself, choices that are based on this feature are.Now this choice is SPAMSPAMSPAM.
Dodging must be a choice, player has to sacrifice something significant for an attempt to save himself from damage.
For example if some weapon skills get endurance cost, then dodge spammers will be outdamaged, outcontrolled and outconditioned by more careful players…
Oh, what a dream…

sorrow.2364:

Every profession except Warrior and Necromancer have pretty much permanent access to vigor.

- Engineers: vigor on swiftness, random from elixirs, 50% endurance regen via trait
- Elementalist: Renewing Stamina (perma vigor almost), vigorous scepter, plus multiple evades via weapon skills
- Mesmer: Critical Infusion (just like Renewing Stamina) plus multiple invulnerabilities via skills
- Ranger: faster endurance regen, primal reflexes and Vigorous Renewal, plus multiple evades via weapon skills
- Thief: everybody knows
- Guardian: Vigorous Precision (just like Critical Infusion adn Renewing Stamina)

Only Necromancers have no access to any form of active damage mitigation mechanics and ArenaNet doesn’t want to give them some tools because they don’t want them to become OP.
Well, yeah…

Yea..if only necros had access to some form of a mechanic that acted as damage mitigation…Like… for example.. a second health bar that they could pop in and out of to absorb damage..

Man…If only

grin

By the way, for the people in this thread that keep talking about Dodge/evade..

You realize Dodge is the equiv of Blocking right?

Warriors have access to Blocking last i checked..

Xsorus.2507:

By the way, for the people in this thread that keep talking about Dodge/evade..

You realize Dodge is the equiv of Blocking right?

Except when skills are unblockable…..

Let’s look at an average S/D Thief with only 15 points in Acrobatics, Withdraw and Vigor on heal.
Each dodge is 3/4 seconds of effective invulnerability.
With Feline Grace (3 dodge per endurance bar) + Vigor any Thief can squeze 3 dodges out of a full endurance bar, which recharges at 10% per seconds.

That means 2.25/10 s of evade time. If you add Withdraw, which is 3/4s of evade every 15s. Considering the fact that for 5s thief won’t have vigor anymore, in 15s the thief will mitigate damage for 2.25 + 0.75 (extra dodge) + 0.75 (withdraw) which is 3.75 invulnerability per 15s.

So 1/4 of the time the thief is evading, which means taking no damage at all.

Now, let’s add Flanking Strike. Flanking Strike can be used approximately 4 times in 15s (2 times at the start, then waiting the initiative to regen before using it again, while retaining some initiative as reserve). 4 Flanking Strikes are 2s of evade.

Adding those seconds to what we’ve calculated before, it’s 5.75 evade time per 15s.

tl:dr: More than 1/3 of the time an S/D Thief can evade, that means that 1/3 of the time it is completely invulnerable. This without considering any blindness, stealth, positioning advantages or any of the boon the thief is capable to steal.
This is only with 15 points in Acrobatics.

Xsorus.2507:

Yea..if only necros had access to some form of a mechanic that acted as damage mitigation…Like… for example.. a second health bar that they could pop in and out of to absorb damage..

Man…If only

grin

By the way, for the people in this thread that keep talking about Dodge/evade..

You realize Dodge is the equiv of Blocking right?

Warriors have access to Blocking last i checked..

Yeah, amazing defensive mechanic.
A “second life bar” with no defensive abilities, constantly degenerating over time at approximately 10 bleed stacks, with no stunbreaker, that has to be slowly built up before it can be used. I wonder how can I save my kitten while I’m hardly building up Life Force.

But yeah, everybody knows that the best defensive mechanic is eating all the damage and all the CCs.

Warriors have access to blocking. But there are some skills that are unblockable (see Flanking Strike), while I see no skill which is “undodgeable”.
Also, last time I checked, Warriors weren’t able to block 1/3 of the time.

I do agree with the OP. Seeing Supcutie really shows the amount of useless dodges one can do. But it’s ok, he’s a mesmer, he’s not punished by that.

sorrow.2364:

, while I see no skill which is “undodgeable”.

Binding blade (5) from guardian greatsword is undodgeable. (the actual pull not the sword flying towards you)

sorrow.2364:

Xsorus.2507:

Yea..if only necros had access to some form of a mechanic that acted as damage mitigation…Like… for example.. a second health bar that they could pop in and out of to absorb damage..

Man…If only

grin

By the way, for the people in this thread that keep talking about Dodge/evade..

You realize Dodge is the equiv of Blocking right?

Warriors have access to Blocking last i checked..

Yeah, amazing defensive mechanic.
A “second life bar” with no defensive abilities, constantly degenerating over time at approximately 10 bleed stacks, with no stunbreaker, that has to be slowly built up before it can be used. I wonder how can I save my kitten while I’m hardly building up Life Force.

But yeah, everybody knows that the best defensive mechanic is eating all the damage and all the CCs.

Warriors have access to blocking. But there are some skills that are unblockable (see Flanking Strike), while I see no skill which is “undodgeable”.
Also, last time I checked, Warriors weren’t able to block 1/3 of the time.

If you’re not building Lifeforce, then that’s a build problem.

Also yes, having a mechanic that eats damage is fairly nice… You might not think it is.. but it is.. That’s your equiv of Dodge/Block

Xsorus.2507:

If you’re not building Lifeforce, then that’s a build problem.

Also yes, having a mechanic that eats damage is fairly nice… You might not think it is.. but it is.. That’s your equiv of Dodge/Block

Lets keep this thread constructive and on topic rather than debating apples to oranges. Just drop Necro from the discussion all together because evade isn’t even something that the profession can think about in the building process.

@Xsorus:
If you think building life force and using shroud can get you to the same kind of survivability as an S/D Thief or a Ranger that spams evades in any scenario that is not PvE, then do start another thread to post a video of you performing said task. Until then anyone that has ever played Necromancer, at all, ever, has to assume that you have no idea what you are talking about.

I wish this game had a telegraph system such as the one Wildstar will have, maybe not so visual; the visual cues should be improved regardless. Also, I’m in favor of significantly reducing evade and protection uptimes, and severly nerfing blocks and blinds as a whole.
Maybe this way, as an example, you could reduce some of the imbalances of a Berserker Mesmer having (vastly) superior survivability than a Soldier or Knight Warrior.

Have to agree With Myrmidian Eudoros… Life Force isn’t the same as dodging at all. It gives good ability to mitigate damage in 1v1s, but Invuln, blocks and dodges mitigate much more once the number of enemies climb past 2. My build I have is completely based on getting high amounts of Life Force, and I still can’t survive a good deal of things my mesmer can, and they have the exact same amount of armor, with necro beating in HP by about 1-1.5k

People like using “perma” a tidbit too much, thinking vigor (in this case) can be applied permanently by most classes. Nay, I say!

Myrmidian Eudoros.4671:

Xsorus.2507:

If you’re not building Lifeforce, then that’s a build problem.

Also yes, having a mechanic that eats damage is fairly nice… You might not think it is.. but it is.. That’s your equiv of Dodge/Block

Lets keep this thread constructive and on topic rather than debating apples to oranges. Just drop Necro from the discussion all together because evade isn’t even something that the profession can think about in the building process.

@Xsorus:
If you think building life force and using shroud can get you to the same kind of survivability as an S/D Thief or a Ranger that spams evades in any scenario that is not PvE, then do start another thread to post a video of you performing said task. Until then anyone that has ever played Necromancer, at all, ever, has to assume that you have no idea what you are talking about.

Yea, its not like I have videos of me playing a Necromancer or anything.

I also never stated it’d give you the same survivability of a thief or ranger, I said its your equiv of Dodge…Its what you’re suppose to use to mitigate damage.

If you go into Deathshroud to spam nukes in a 1v1 you deserve to die…

Use it to negate burst, then pop out of it.

Loyo.8526:

Have to agree With Myrmidian Eudoros… Life Force isn’t the same as dodging at all. It gives good ability to mitigate damage in 1v1s, but Invuln, blocks and dodges mitigate much more once the number of enemies climb past 2. My build I have is completely based on getting high amounts of Life Force, and I still can’t survive a good deal of things my mesmer can, and they have the exact same amount of armor, with necro beating in HP by about 1-1.5k

Mesmer’s stay up not because of invul, but because they can go invisible multiple times over and over again.

If Mesmer’s didn’t have invis, they’d die very very quickly.

Also you think Dodging on a Ranger will save you past 2 people? If the players are remotely competent, they’ll kill you very quickly.

Xsorus.2507:

Mesmer’s stay up not because of invul, but because they can go invisible multiple times over and over again.

If Mesmer’s didn’t have invis, they’d die very very quickly.

Mesmer’s in Tpvp don’t run invis utilities. They survive because of invuls and good positioning.

Nikkle.4013:

Xsorus.2507:

Mesmer’s stay up not because of invul, but because they can go invisible multiple times over and over again.

If Mesmer’s didn’t have invis, they’d die very very quickly.

Mesmer’s in Tpvp don’t run invis utilities. They survive because of invuls and good positioning.

if you’re not able to kill a Mesmer without invis then that’s a user problem.

That Invul doesn’t last long enough to not get eaten by Spikes of damage or conditions.

As many people have already said, the problem is not just dodge rolls, or just vigor access, or just endurance on swap – it’s when you combine them all together that you have issues.

On one hand you can have a class like necro. No self vigor, no bonus endurance regen or return, no passive evades. Their only option to gain additional evades is edurance on swap or a team mate giving them vigor. In this case the edurance on swap mods are more or less needed for a necro to have good mitigation.

On the other hand there are classes like thieves and rangers with easy access to all of the things listed above. Combine bonus endurace regen, almost perma vigor, passive exaved (no CD on thief), and endruance on swap mods and you get a huge mess.

In general the endurance on swap mods are bad for the game. They are just too strong. While some classes are reliant on them it would be much better to remove them from the game and buff the classes that then need buffs. This would stop some of the absurd evasion stacking that we see.

Removing a massive cross class endurance steroid would allow for a much better class by class balance of evasion and keep people from stacking evasion buffs on top of evasion buffs on top of evasion buffs. Each class can then be much better tuned. After that the next step would be to look into traits, there are many that are just too easy to get (5-10 points) for a massive vigor or endurance buff.

I haven’t played in sPVP in awhile, but IMO right now endurance is too easy to get in PVE and WvW as well.

The main two classes I play are the Engineer and the Necromancer, and on the Engineer I frequently have permanent vigor. With the trait that gives vigor on swiftness combined with one of the two traits that grants swiftness, and with Elixir H thrown on top I end up with permanent vigor on the support class. Should that permanent vigor fail somehow, Elixir R makes a great backup endurance regeneration. I have to say that permanent vigor is easymode in PVE, where you can solo temple bosses simply because you can dodge every single one of their attacks every time they attack. In WvW I’ve tried running with permanent vigor, and it greatly increases my defensive abilities in 1 vs. 1 combat. So much so that I could win even though I suck at skillshots with the grenade kit.

Keep in mind that this is the engineer. This isn’t the thief or the ranger that are complained about by the OP. This isn’t the elementalist or the mesmer which also have access to such a thing along with more evasive skills. This is the clunky, kit swapping, self-stunning, eternal underdog that is the engineer. The class who’s idea of an escape skill is a self-inflicted concussion caused by the explosive failure of their rocket boots.

My Necromancer feels like a slug compared to every other class I own, and I can easily see why. Those dodges are so valuable to me in WvW, where I can shrug off an entire zerg of limitless size because I can just flip around over and over again, evading a limitless number of attacks while also ruining any skillshots from enemy skills.

I suppose a counter-argument to the whole endurance debate is that the only class who doesn’t have it is the necromancer. Just from memory, Guardians, Elementalists, Engineers, and Mesmers very easily get permanent Vigor while Rangers and Thieves get weapon evasion skills along with harder to obtain permanent vigor, E and Warriors get some endurance regen and the hardest to obtain permanent vigor. So, it can be said that pretty much every class can flip around like ninjas due to how easily they can get endurance.

…except the Necromancer…

But I do think there should be more control over endurance. Half the classes shouldn’t get permanent vigor from an adept trait.

Xsorus.2507:

Yea, its not like I have videos of me playing a Necromancer or anything.

I also never stated it’d give you the same survivability of a thief or ranger, I said its your equiv of Dodge…Its what you’re suppose to use to mitigate damage.

If you go into Deathshroud to spam nukes in a 1v1 you deserve to die…

Use it to negate burst, then pop out of it.

The point is it isn’t even half as effective as endurance regen and dodge spams.
Pretty much because DS doesn’t make you invulnerable to CCs, doesn’t last of a fixed amount of time regardless the amount of damage taken and doesn’t helps you to disengage nor it gives you positional advantage. Also, DS can’t be used on demand because it is locked to a 10s cooldown (5s if you spend 30 points on a traitline) and it lasts (if you do the math) way less than the amount of evading time of any thief or ranger.

Also, you start with 0 LF at the start of the match, you have horrible stunbreakers and no way to defend yourself while building LF to mitigate the bursts.

Also, DS have the best Necro’s skills. Using in solely to mitigate damage is a waste of potential, especially for power Necros.

Xsorus.2507:

Mesmer’s stay up not because of invul, but because they can go invisible multiple times over and over again.

If Mesmer’s didn’t have invis, they’d die very very quickly.

Also you think Dodging on a Ranger will save you past 2 people? If the players are remotely competent, they’ll kill you very quickly.

Actually, Mesmers stay alive because of visual confusion, easy access teleports (which really hurts with all those clones around) and invulnerability on demand.

Invisibility is the last of the reasons of their amazing survivability.

Here is how to counter dodge build:

Roll a cheese condition damage build that just lays down condition damage AoEs. Condition damage cannot be dodged/missed/blocked/avoided from invulnerable status/avoided due to line of sight. GG.

If you recall this is supposed to be a skill based esport game. /rolleyes

Geff.1930:

Here is how to counter dodge build:

Roll a cheese condition damage build that just lays down condition damage AoEs. Condition damage cannot be dodged/missed/blocked/avoided from invulnerable status/avoided due to line of sight. GG.

If you recall this is supposed to be a skill based esport game. /rolleyes

You can dodge conditions. It’s very easy, you just need to dodge the attack that applies the bleed/burn/poison.

Mrbig.8019:

Arheundel.6451:

Basically nerf everybody else except the real culprit..s/d thieves..oh Mrbig, you really think to be super-smart, the best way is to just re-work the really silly skills like flanking strike and infiltrator strike.
Professions like ele, got a 20s skill which grant vigor and a trait that require us to crit, meaning that at the very least we need to build as hybrid which translate to 1400 toughness-14k HP.

There is no problem against signet of energy users ( thieves-rangers) and no problem against vigor boon users , because clever players won’t waste their burst just because is available, but time their CC and positioning to deliver an effective combo…like a CC applied soon after the first dodge

There is problem against evasive skills incorporated inside the weapon set as they have shorter CD compared to a single dodge, even with vigor up any target can at most still use only 2 dodges and vigor all it does is reduce the time to the third dodge, this means that a noob dodge spammer die just as easily as somebody who doesn’t have vigor in the first place

That s/d thieves want to use sigil of energy got no problem with that, I know you’ll have to wait at least 10s before going back to s/d…flanking strike on other hand can be spammer 3 times in a row plus 2 dodges isn’t that right Mrbig?

Flanking strike is not silly, it’s actually a GOOD skill and nothing else.

Its damage is decent and its only saving grace is the evade. Its boon stripping capabilities are noticable only against boon heavy/little else classes like HGH engies or D/D eles ( and poor warriors of course, against them the skill is failry imba).

Inf strike has been there for ages, even when S/P thieves were common and pistol whip was very , VERY strong ( +15% damage and 100% speed incresing quickness).

Teleports are how thieves play, that’s how old GW assassins played, it’s a different playstyle.

I dislike eles being able to heal istantly the whole party from 30% to 90% with 2 skills, i’m not crying about it.

I dislike guardian skills like Sanctuary because it’s a passive bubble of “you won’t take this point for 6 secs simply because i pressed a button”, yet i’m not crying about it.

What is bad regarding S/D thieves is the possibility to bring double S/D + double energy sigil.

If you try to fight a shortbow-S/D thief ( teamfight version of the build, the one i run) you’ll find that dealing against it is only a matter of timing, because i can’t perma-evade ( no double energy sigil, that are also bugged currently) so i have to time my dodges ACCURATELY.

Attack between flanking -larcenous chain, i’m vulnerable. If i waste my dodge to avoid your attacks meanwhile, you’ve won.

If i teleport back, because i couldn’t win the fight, you’ve won: your allies will come, i won’t take the point.

It may be UNFUN to play against, but it’s not IMBA.

Fun is subjective: as i said, i hate eles because they heal too much in cleric, i hate guardians because they block too much, i hate mesmers because they MOA etc etc.

You should start to grow up and stop acting like a kid: balance should be achieved for tPvP and nothing else.

Something may be unfun to play against, but ineffective in high end PvP: that’s the case for 80% of thief builds.

Dodge spamming is unfun for everyone, and imba in certain cases, and should be addressed.

Ele heals whole team with 2 skills?
You should go back to wvwvw forum dude…. your lies are behind rational, cleric amulet eles? in tpvp? Are you playing GW3 by any chance?

Let me repeat again in case …ELE HEAL WHOLE TEAM FROM 30% TO 90% HP WITH 2 SKILLS????

Pls @Mrbig post now a screenshot of an ele healing for 12k HP on average with 2 skills!

P.S I’m sick tired of your arrogance, get already in your thick head that not every ele run freaking cleric amulet! The majority of us didn’t sign for ele thinking of playing healer and ele is not a blasted healer by default, pls stop talk about tPvP..thieves and mesmer are entry level professions, like the noobtube in CoD.

The diffuculty list for the devs was and is :

1) Necromancer
2) Elementalist
3) Engineer

Only on thief and mesmer you find cheesy, brain freezing skills and builds like : HS spammer-phantasm mesmer – perma stealth dagger-pistol…I mean kitten with what courage a thief or mesmer player come on this forums and talk about skills?…seriously what a bronze face

Geff.1930:

Here is how to counter dodge build:

Roll a cheese condition damage build that just lays down condition damage AoEs. Condition damage cannot be dodged/missed/blocked/avoided from invulnerable status/avoided due to line of sight. GG.

If you recall this is supposed to be a skill based esport game. /rolleyes

C’mon Man. “Cheese” condition damage? There isn’t a condi-pressure build in the game that doesn’t take vastly more skill to play effectively than evade Rangers and Thieves. Nades and Marks are skill shots (granted it isn’t that hard to hit them, but timing between dodges for the high value skills can be tricky due to cast/flight times). If you are dying to LB Warriors and consider them “Cheese” or standing in GT AoE’s then I dunno what to say there.

When dodge up time is so high and condition cleanses are available for the dodge spammers it isn’t that easy. Particularly in the case of Rangers that blow off 4 conditions/10s passively while regenning and having the option to drop a 15s water field that also strips condis. Can you kill them eventually? Yes, once you kill their pet (which a competent ranger will make you eat through 2 pets with a well timed swap). It takes FOREVER against an equal skilled player though and it is ridiculously boring.

sorrow.2364:

Xsorus.2507:

Yea, its not like I have videos of me playing a Necromancer or anything.

I also never stated it’d give you the same survivability of a thief or ranger, I said its your equiv of Dodge…Its what you’re suppose to use to mitigate damage.

If you go into Deathshroud to spam nukes in a 1v1 you deserve to die…

Use it to negate burst, then pop out of it.

The point is it isn’t even half as effective as endurance regen and dodge spams.
Pretty much because DS doesn’t make you invulnerable to CCs, doesn’t last of a fixed amount of time regardless the amount of damage taken and doesn’t helps you to disengage nor it gives you positional advantage. Also, DS can’t be used on demand because it is locked to a 10s cooldown (5s if you spend 30 points on a traitline) and it lasts (if you do the math) way less than the amount of evading time of any thief or ranger.

Also, you start with 0 LF at the start of the match, you have horrible stunbreakers and no way to defend yourself while building LF to mitigate the bursts.

Also, DS have the best Necro’s skills. Using in solely to mitigate damage is a waste of potential, especially for power Necros.

Xsorus.2507:

Mesmer’s stay up not because of invul, but because they can go invisible multiple times over and over again.

If Mesmer’s didn’t have invis, they’d die very very quickly.

Also you think Dodging on a Ranger will save you past 2 people? If the players are remotely competent, they’ll kill you very quickly.

Actually, Mesmers stay alive because of visual confusion, easy access teleports (which really hurts with all those clones around) and invulnerability on demand.

Invisibility is the last of the reasons of their amazing survivability.

It doesn’t take that long to build LS once you get it a fight, and I realize that DS has some of your best abilities…but in a 1v1, Don’t use it primarily for damage..Use it to negate burst… Group Fights when you’re not focused, yea..Its a good idea to use it like you want..1v1 when someone is on top of you, Don’t..You’ll just remove the one form of Damage reduction you have..

Myrmidian Eudoros.4671:

Geff.1930:

Here is how to counter dodge build:

Roll a cheese condition damage build that just lays down condition damage AoEs. Condition damage cannot be dodged/missed/blocked/avoided from invulnerable status/avoided due to line of sight. GG.

If you recall this is supposed to be a skill based esport game. /rolleyes

C’mon Man. “Cheese” condition damage? There isn’t a condi-pressure build in the game that doesn’t take vastly more skill to play effectively than evade Rangers and Thieves. Nades and Marks are skill shots (granted it isn’t that hard to hit them, but timing between dodges for the high value skills can be tricky due to cast/flight times). If you are dying to LB Warriors and consider them “Cheese” or standing in GT AoE’s then I dunno what to say there.

When dodge up time is so high and condition cleanses are available for the dodge spammers it isn’t that easy. Particularly in the case of Rangers that blow off 4 conditions/10s passively while regenning and having the option to drop a 15s water field that also strips condis. Can you kill them eventually? Yes, once you kill their pet (which a competent ranger will make you eat through 2 pets with a well timed swap). It takes FOREVER against an equal skilled player though and it is ridiculously boring.

Killing the Ranger pet works if you have 2 people…It also works if they’re trap build….

Don’t try and kill it 1v1 though if they’re beast unless you can do a high amount of damage quickly, though if you can do that…You’re probably Glass Cannon and you’re going to die anyway to that Ranger.

If you’re going to the back point, Bring a friend is the best advice…

Ostricheggs.3742:

Yea, evades in general are at times a bit over the top and it’s not just dodge rolls (I’m looking at you, rangers). It’s a pretty big balance issue, especially considering how important evades are. Vigor as well. Mesmers get a free vigor on crit trait for a measly FIVE points up their most important tree. Sigil of energy is used relatively ubiquitously for a kitten good reason.

Worst of all it appears like not a lot of thought has been put into it from a-net. I wouldn’t consider cutting the invulns on dodge just yet but I would definitely think about hampering access to vigor as well as the strength of it in general (that isn’t to even mention protection, why that thing hasn’t been nerfed is beyond me)

I like you Ostrich, but sometimes I feel like you really want to make the Engineer inaccessible to anyone who doesn’t have 8 hours a day to play (just going off of your 2000 hours played since release that you mentioned in the Engenious podcast). Constantly shouting about how OP we are, and now an offhand remark about nefing Protection. Stop helping, man. Protection is one of the few defensive buffs we can reliably count on, and even then only when there aren’t 1 or more S/D thieves prowling the map. So, ease up. Not everyone can put in the 40/week you do.

Xsorus.2507:

It doesn’t take that long to build LS once you get it a fight, and I realize that DS has some of your best abilities…but in a 1v1, Don’t use it primarily for damage..Use it to negate burst… Group Fights when you’re not focused, yea..Its a good idea to use it like you want..1v1 when someone is on top of you, Don’t..You’ll just remove the one form of Damage reduction you have..

It does take a load of time to build life force.
Conditionmancers, in particular, take a lot of time to build life force.
Just consider that when you have the soul marks trait (20 points into Soul Reaping renouncing Master of Terror) , every mark or weapon skill used grants you one second of Death Shroud without taking any damage at all.
Considering that Life Force is approximately 41% of you HP pool (source: discussion tab into Life Force wiki page), a 20k HP necro will have ~8k base Life Force pool +20% due to Soul Reaping, which is about 10k life force.

To absorb only a backstab with Death Shroud, which is about 5k damage, you have to build 50% of your Life Force bar, which is about 16 skill casts.

16 skill casts to tank a backstab with Death Shroud with one of the fastest way to generate Life Force.

I’ve said it all.

Grackleflint.4956:

Ostricheggs.3742:

Yea, evades in general are at times a bit over the top and it’s not just dodge rolls (I’m looking at you, rangers). It’s a pretty big balance issue, especially considering how important evades are. Vigor as well. Mesmers get a free vigor on crit trait for a measly FIVE points up their most important tree. Sigil of energy is used relatively ubiquitously for a kitten good reason.

Worst of all it appears like not a lot of thought has been put into it from a-net. I wouldn’t consider cutting the invulns on dodge just yet but I would definitely think about hampering access to vigor as well as the strength of it in general (that isn’t to even mention protection, why that thing hasn’t been nerfed is beyond me)

I like you Ostrich, but sometimes I feel like you really want to make the Engineer inaccessible to anyone who doesn’t have 8 hours a day to play (just going off of your 2000 hours played since release that you mentioned in the Engenious podcast). Constantly shouting about how OP we are, and now an offhand remark about nefing Protection. Stop helping, man. Protection is one of the few defensive buffs we can reliably count on, and even then only when there aren’t 1 or more S/D thieves prowling the map. So, ease up. Not everyone can put in the 40/week you do.

I believe he was referring to all classes in general within the current meta-game, not specifically of Engis. At least that’s the way it reads to me.

RE: topic – IMO, extra (read: not endless) dodging makes combat more exciting and interesting (for both viewers and players) and increases the need for thoughtful and intelligent game play. Evades/Invulns on attack skills however do the opposite, allowing players to cover their mistakes or even play recklessly by essentially attacking with impunity, or just being near un-hittable. Neither of which are the sole or mutual issue since the utilization of both varies from class to class. The availability of teleports, stealth, leaps, etc. need to also be considered in regards to this issue owing to the fact that immobilizes are intended to counter successive dodging, though they can be negated by evades/invulns and teleports. Obviously any build that can include the maximum amount of dodging, mutliple evade/invuln skills, and teleports (in their current capacity, acting as both mini-stun break and negating immobs) has the potential to be virtually un-hittable.

So no, I don’t think dodging and vigor are the issue. Evades/invulns on weapon skills are a poor design choice, but also are not the issue. Teleports (specially those located on weapons) are currently far too effective, though they also are not the issue . However, builds that can make effective use of all three of these are definitely the issue. And since these are only available to a select few classes then it stands to reason that none of these are “too accessible” in general as OP asks, but are clearly too accessible to those few who can utilize them all in conjunction while still playing a viable role within the team.

IMO the problem is not that dodge is powerful and can negate damage. The problem (maybe) is in fact there can be lucky or “random” dodges. Someone said that there cant be luck based dodges and all is skill based. Well then think again. If I need a well timed immobilize to land my burst, what if my enemy will dodge the immobilize? When I try to land something big on my enemy, I always try to count how many dodges he recently did and try to assume when will be the window when he wont have enough energy. But this is often not so simple. People tend to do “random” dodges sometimes, or dodges that are aniticipating that something is coming. You can say that someone can anticipate well, but that still doesnt change the fact that this is luck based to some extent. If I am using some random skill on my enemy which is an instant cast, there is always a chance that he will dodge that becouse je just happened to dodge “randomly”. If he suceed with this random dodge, he just gained a big upper hand becouse I just wasted my special card. So in this case this is all a kind of a mind game. Like in beat-em-up games (Tekken, Street Fighter etc.) where you have situations where you need to guess if your opponent will do move A or move B. If you guess correctly, you will defend against this. If you guess wrong, you will get punished. This is pure luck and any pro Street Fighter player will confirm that. Is this good or bad? I dont know. I guess we need some sort of chaos element. After all, crits are also random and one good crit at right time can mean a difference between a victory and a loss. But this can be disliked by some. If you think about it, why do we even need crits for example? Becouse they are fun? Maybe. But any game would be better balanced if crits were not part of its system.

I can dodge 4 times in a row on my engy and self revive before going down.

edit: Oh I meant to say I play this balanced class called engineer from time to time.

Yes. Either vigor needs to be nerfed or access to vigor needs to be nerfed. Rangers and thieves in particular completely trivialize dodging, with non-necromancer classes not too far behind.

So what people are starting to realise is that:

1, Dodging is awesome. It makes you invulnerable.
2, Vigor is AMAZING – more dodges = more invulnerablity and it turns out invuln is pretty good. – double the up time on being invulnable with this boon seems good right?
3, Turns out weapon skills which do damage AND evade attacks are pretty good as well. You know, being invulnerable is pretty good. Espicially when these skills have low/no cd.
4, Turns out that getting basically 2 seconds of invuln on weapon swap is good too. Amazing to think this!
5, Turns out when you stack perma vigor with endurance on weapon swap and evasion attack skills then you have a build which is really lame to fight against.

So now players have realised that should be about 6 months till anet realise and 6 more months till some minor patch. Ever wonder why this game is so dead pvp wise? Nobody watches it and nobody plays it. Fighting against thieves and rangers with 50%+ evade up time turns out it isn’t fun. Wow. Who woulda thought it.

Balance is one thing, having frustrating and lame game mechanics is entirely another. I am sure some players have fun on their powerful builds evading ALL attacks but turns out this isn’t fun to fight against. Lame game mechanics kill games 100x faster than balance does. Because if a game isn’t fun then people aren’t going to stick around. And let’s be honest, the little balance issues can be ignored if the game is fun akittens core. Perma-evasion isn’t fun. Especially when they kill you whilst perma evading – which they can because thieves/ranger pets still hit hard.

I am not saying s/d thieves or bm rangers are OP. That doesn’t matter. I AM saying they aren’t fun in the slightest to fight against. The amount of evasion you get with perma vigor, energy sigils and evasion attacks is absurd. Energy sigils are the least important of these.

O but they intend to buff weakness so more people use it? Well necros wont. The necro skill for weakness is very poor and slow to hit. Also the small issue of having to hit a perma evading class (who all have condi cleanse too btw) to put the weakness on them.

Then there is the laughable necro GM trait which gives a tiny amount of weakness when you crit. The crit chance is only 25% (lol) AND most crucially any condition necro who would benefit from this has weapons with awful rates of fire. I worked out weakness up time (with no cleanses) would still be not alot.

tl;dr – Perma evasion isn’t fun. But don’t expect any changes soon. This game is fail