Guild Wars 2

You won the thread. Give this man a cookie.

If you can’t handle the competition then don’t compete.

You just dug the DBZ reference.

You haven’t actually presented any reason it’s silly, you’ve just asserted that, and, as they say, assertions without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

And neither have you. We both just asserted our side of it, I don’t know why you keep pointing that out. It’s a bit redundant.

hint – It’s not the leagues themselves. It’s the broken PvP. Leagues are a good thing. They work flawlessly in League of Legends. We just got a silly interpretation of that.

Sometimes I wish Anet was a little bit like blizzard and straight out copied everyone around them with some retouches here and there.

I have the perfect solution for OP.
Just make the wings tradeable on the tp, so he can farm his pve and buy it for a couple of thousand gold.
Would only take a few weeks of flipping items on the tp and youre done.

Just make the wings tradeable on the tp, so he can farm his pve and buy it for a couple of thousand gold.
Would only take a few weeks of flipping items on the tp and youre done.

I’m on record as saying that bad options are preferable to no options, but good options are better still. Being able to buy them on the TP would be a bad solution, with all sorts of problems of its own, but it would at least be better than ONLY being able to get them via PvP, if only by a slight margin.

It’s still important to go for the best solution though, one that provides multiple genuine paths of progression that involve genuine effort within the game world, not just gold grind or pip grind.

Ohoni.6057:

Just make the wings tradeable on the tp, so he can farm his pve and buy it for a couple of thousand gold.
Would only take a few weeks of flipping items on the tp and youre done.

I’m on record as saying that bad options are preferable to no options, but good options are better still. Being able to buy them on the TP would be a bad solution, with all sorts of problems of its own, but it would at least be better than ONLY being able to get them via PvP, if only by a slight margin.

It’s still important to go for the best solution though, one that provides multiple genuine paths of progression that involve genuine effort within the game world, not just gold grind or pip grind.

I don’t see the problem. They’re legendary pvp wings, you have to do pvp for it. What’s so illogical about it? There is a fractal backpiece you can only get by doing fractals. If you cannot make efffort to get it, well then you don’t deserve it anyways.

Ohoni.6057:

Just make the wings tradeable on the tp, so he can farm his pve and buy it for a couple of thousand gold.
Would only take a few weeks of flipping items on the tp and youre done.

I’m on record as saying that bad options are preferable to no options, but good options are better still. Being able to buy them on the TP would be a bad solution, with all sorts of problems of its own, but it would at least be better than ONLY being able to get them via PvP, if only by a slight margin.

It’s still important to go for the best solution though, one that provides multiple genuine paths of progression that involve genuine effort within the game world, not just gold grind or pip grind.

There is no gold grind. I earn lots of it while playing my favourite content, the trading post. Its not repetitive because i can trade in a new market every day, its fair because its balanced by the players and not Anet and it is dynamic because with every content patch or bug fix, Anet shakes up the meta.

They’re legendary pvp wings, you have to do pvp for it. What’s so illogical about it?

The problem is that they are “legendary PvP wings” only because that’s the label ANet arbitrarily chose to slap on them. They could have instead slapped on “Legendary Gem Store Wings,” or “Legendary Collection Quest Wings,” or “Legendary ‘On Golden Wings’ Addventure Wings” if they wanted and it would have been equally as appropriate.

Because they decided to make them “PvP wings,” that means that players who enjoy PvP and do it a lot can get them with little to no effort outside the time they were already going to be spending PvPing over the league season, while players who do not enjoy PvP will end up having to do a ton of PvPing, and possibly not get the wings at all, whether they want them or not. This presents a less than ideal scenario no matter how it plays out.

The better solution is to offer multiple paths, some more efficient than others, but all leading to the same goal. The Specialization weapons are a good example of this. Someone in a reddit thread was complaining that they required high amounts of HoT map currencies, and that they really hated a certain map. But there are safetynets for this. There is a device which on a daily basic can convert 25 of one currency into 10 of another. It’s inefficient, but you could potentially farm just the one map and earn enough currency to convert into all the other types. It would take you longer, but if you enjoy the process, then the option is available.

I’d like alternatives like that to the Ascension path, something that might take longer overall, might involve more actual effort, but over other areas of the game, areas you might prefer more.

There is a fractal backpiece you can only get by doing fractals.

There is, and I’ve been consistently in favor of broadening it’s requirements as well, including allowing you to advance part, if not all of it in PvP if you so chose.

If you cannot make efffort to get it, well then you don’t deserve it anyways.

True, and nobody’s suggesting otherwise, but why should that effort have to be spent confined to a single activity, whether you enjoy that activity or not?

There is no gold grind. I earn lots of it while playing my favourite content, the trading post.

For you. But to a player who does not find the trading post to be their favorite, it is a grind, and it’s a grind that is far out of balance with other potential activities. That’s why there should be a multitude of options, and they should be in balance with each other, not identical, that would be impossible, but at least within some form of parity, as the various classes are in PvP matches.

its fair because its balanced by the players and not Anet

It’s not balanced at all because ANet chooses not to enforce any balance. You could as easily claim that a PvP system would be balanced even if some classes absolutely destroy any other and some are absolutely destroyed by any other, simply because players could choose to pick the “good” classes and avoid the “bad” ones. Classically, that situation would not meet the definition of a well balanced PvP system, just so you know.

Long time no see Ohoni.

To keep my opinions on this matter short, I think that having important, exclusive rewards is a must in each game mode (PvE, sPvP, WvW). It requires you a certain mastery of the game mode.

In the exact case of sPvP, it is easily accessible (no gold required, no gear needed, anything). Even the rewards are available for those players that do not want to focus too much on sPvP (they do have to play sPvP).

The rewards, as of the Legendary backpack alone, it needs 125 tickets. We should have at least 4 seasons. This means you have 4 seasons, each of them 8 weeks long, to get the necessary tickets.

If you only manage to pass Amber and Emerald, you can get enough tickets to make the Legendary wings. On top of that, the three first Divisions are not that hard to get through them. Maybe it’s just time-consuming. But it’s 8 weeks long, which is enough time, if you ask me, to at least get through Amber and Emerald (Maybe 100-150 on the worst scennarios?)

I’d give in if you tell me that Guild Wars 2 does a poor job introducing new players into the sPvP environment. However, those League rewards are behind the 20 rank wall. You have (had) time to prepare for it, get in the environment, learn the necessary basic things.

And to finish things off, I think matchmaking is consistently good for average MMR players after they play some games and their real MMR is settled (because Unranked and Ranked have separated MMRs). So unfair matches, at least on my perspective, is not a valid excuse that keeps you from achieving rewards.

TL;DR: rewards require investment (arguably minor) on playing sPvP, being easy to get over time. It can be fast if you invest all of your time on it or it can be slow but require minimal effort each season.

There is no problem with exclusive rewards that require you to do an explicit activity in the game.

I do not understand the OP. You dislike PvP, yet you play it … why? I don’t get it.

Ohoni.6057:

They’re legendary pvp wings, you have to do pvp for it. What’s so illogical about it?

The problem is that they are “legendary PvP wings” only because that’s the label ANet arbitrarily chose to slap on them. They could have instead slapped on “Legendary Gem Store Wings,” or “Legendary Collection Quest Wings,” or “Legendary ‘On Golden Wings’ Addventure Wings” if they wanted and it would have been equally as appropriate.

Because they decided to make them “PvP wings,” that means that players who enjoy PvP and do it a lot can get them with little to no effort outside the time they were already going to be spending PvPing over the league season, while players who do not enjoy PvP will end up having to do a ton of PvPing, and possibly not get the wings at all, whether they want them or not. This presents a less than ideal scenario no matter how it plays out.

The better solution is to offer multiple paths, some more efficient than others, but all leading to the same goal. The Specialization weapons are a good example of this. Someone in a reddit thread was complaining that they required high amounts of HoT map currencies, and that they really hated a certain map. But there are safetynets for this. There is a device which on a daily basic can convert 25 of one currency into 10 of another. It’s inefficient, but you could potentially farm just the one map and earn enough currency to convert into all the other types. It would take you longer, but if you enjoy the process, then the option is available.

I’d like alternatives like that to the Ascension path, something that might take longer overall, might involve more actual effort, but over other areas of the game, areas you might prefer more.

There is a fractal backpiece you can only get by doing fractals.

There is, and I’ve been consistently in favor of broadening it’s requirements as well, including allowing you to advance part, if not all of it in PvP if you so chose.

If you cannot make efffort to get it, well then you don’t deserve it anyways.

True, and nobody’s suggesting otherwise, but why should that effort have to be spent confined to a single activity, whether you enjoy that activity or not?

There is no gold grind. I earn lots of it while playing my favourite content, the trading post.

For you. But to a player who does not find the trading post to be their favorite, it is a grind, and it’s a grind that is far out of balance with other potential activities. That’s why there should be a multitude of options, and they should be in balance with each other, not identical, that would be impossible, but at least within some form of parity, as the various classes are in PvP matches.

its fair because its balanced by the players and not Anet

It’s not balanced at all because ANet chooses not to enforce any balance. You could as easily claim that a PvP system would be balanced even if some classes absolutely destroy any other and some are absolutely destroyed by any other, simply because players could choose to pick the “good” classes and avoid the “bad” ones. Classically, that situation would not meet the definition of a well balanced PvP system, just so you know.

A grind is something where you have to perform a certain task or kill a single enemy continously in order to get a reward.
Gold is earned in a wide variety of ways, so players can choose which path they take.
Grind doesnt equal effort.

Many players asked for exclusive rewards that display their achievements in certain content. Thats what Anet delivered.

Ohoni is my new number 1 source of GW2 related comedy! Thank you, this is almost like trailer park boys-level idiocy but only a real person (hopefully)!

Please don’t stop making these posts, your BS plus the fact that people actually take the time to respond to you is hilarious!

Kaijantoo.5796:

Ohoni is my new number 1 source of GW2 related comedy! Thank you, this is almost like trailer park boys-level idiocy but only a real person (hopefully)!

Please don’t stop making these posts, your BS plus the fact that people actually take the time to respond to you is hilarious!

Comedy gold!

Honestly, the fact that he isn’t banned yet is just astonishing. He puts people down, tells them they are useless and is just a genuine old fashioned troll yet this post is more likely to get an infraction than anything he posts.

Tinfoil Hat ON I am starting to wonder if its an ANet employee posting literally the dumbest and most trolliest they can to discredit the haters.

Ohoni.6057:

You haven’t actually presented any reason it’s silly, you’ve just asserted that, and, as they say, assertions without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

And neither have you. We both just asserted our side of it, I don’t know why you keep pointing that out. It’s a bit redundant.

No. I’m disputing your assertion that having exclusive items for each game mode is silly. YOU are the one making an assertion.

Kaijantoo.5796:

Ohoni is my new number 1 source of GW2 related comedy! Thank you, this is almost like trailer park boys-level idiocy but only a real person (hopefully)!

Please don’t stop making these posts, your BS plus the fact that people actually take the time to respond to you is hilarious!

I enjoy taking the time to respond, it’s fun
So I guess this is something of a win-win-win. You get to laugh at it, I get the fun of responding, and he gets the fun of trolling.
bows

This guys sense of entitlement is hilarious.

Ohoni, when will you get the message Arenanet is trying to send?

Content specific rewards are a primary method of reward in GW2

How do you keep up the drive to make these threads when it is so blatantly obvious that neither the player base nor the developers have any empathy with your point of view? It is a truly impressive display of endurance and baseless hope.

Thanks everyone for your time discussing these important issues.

Ohoni.6057:

snip

Ohoni.6057:

snip

Ohoni.6057:

snip

.
.
.

snip

congratulations, now everyone knows your openion! which was already explained in the first 2k rows you wrote!

now you can shut the kitten up and make this post unbumped for a long time kkthx.
this also goes to everyone who is still arguing with this person. like me!
(should be last post here)

To keep my opinions on this matter short, I think that having important, exclusive rewards is a must in each game mode (PvE, sPvP, WvW). It requires you a certain mastery of the game mode.

And I think that in principle this is fine, so long as it does not gate away cosmetic looks from players who cannot achieve that level of success. Any rewards that require high levels of skill and dedication should be things that are ONLY useful for establishing that you have those experiences, NOT items that players might want whether they want to establish those experiences or not.

In the exact case of sPvP, it is easily accessible (no gold required, no gear needed, anything). Even the rewards are available for those players that do not want to focus too much on sPvP (they do have to play sPvP).

I don’t know about this. I’m still pushing at the first tier, and that alone ends up taking an hour or more per day, which doesn’t leave a whole lot of time to do anything else. Once in the higher tiers of the meta, the time required gets even higher, so it is a considerably burden on players that don’t particularly want to PvP. If they removed the “during league season” element, and the “number of matches per day” requirement, then it might be more convenient to grind out over a longer period of time, but even still, it’s a LOT of matches to play for non-PvPers.

If you only manage to pass Amber and Emerald, you can get enough tickets to make the Legendary wings. On top of that, the three first Divisions are not that hard to get through them. Maybe it’s just time-consuming. But it’s 8 weeks long, which is enough time, if you ask me, to at least get through Amber and Emerald (Maybe 100-150 on the worst scennarios?)

Perhaps. For the record I’m currently in the last tier of Amber, and have been winning more than I lose lately (3-0 for tonight), but it can be a bit random.

I’d give in if you tell me that Guild Wars 2 does a poor job introducing new players into the sPvP environment. However, those League rewards are behind the 20 rank wall. You have (had) time to prepare for it, get in the environment, learn the necessary basic things.

This is another issue, to the best of my knowledge, they didn’t warn anyone about this, and then only gave people eight weeks to complete as much of the achievements as they could. Luckily I was already at 26, but I imagine there were a fair few people who were caught off guard by this requirement. It’s like with the Hero point non-announcement before HoT dropped, they really need to do a better job of announcing requirements for things well in advance of needing them.

And to finish things off, I think matchmaking is consistently good for average MMR players after they play some games and their real MMR is settled (because Unranked and Ranked have separated MMRs). So unfair matches, at least on my perspective, is not a valid excuse that keeps you from achieving rewards.

this may be true, because as I said my more recent matches have been much more balanced than by first ten or so, but even if that’s the case, it’s a bad MMR system and should be fixed if it leads to massive losing streaks out of the gate. I mean, having players lose a ton of matches before they start winning anything isn’t a great way to endear new players to the game type.

I do not understand the OP. You dislike PvP, yet you play it … why? I don’t get it.

You should have read the OP. I explained it. I don’t want to spoil it for you, but it had to do with “wings.”

A grind is something where you have to perform a certain task or kill a single enemy continously in order to get a reward.
Gold is earned in a wide variety of ways, so players can choose which path they take.
Grind doesnt equal effort.

All true, although some methods of earning gold are radically out of balance with others, which make the gold economy a broken, unbalanced system that should be avoided whenever possible. The best solutions avoid the gold economy entirely while still providing a variety of options. I’m not saying that the gold economy couldn’t work, just that they let it be broken for too long for them to fix it now, like the karma economy.

No. I’m disputing your assertion that having exclusive items for each game mode is silly. YOU are the one making an assertion.

I didn’t say that it was silly to have exclusive items to specific game modes, I said it was silly for people to believe that owning these items somehow conveys “prestige.” If people want to do that, then that’s fine, but it shouldn’t be used as an excuse to exclude desirable skins from those players who might want them.

“Keep in mind, I’m not asking for a path that would be easier for me than the current PvP path is to serious PvPers, I’m just asking for a path that would be of equivalent difficulty to non-PvPers as the existing PvP path is for PvPers.”

When they make it that you earn as much gold and mats as PvE player.

I played only PvP for last 3 years and im poor as mice and you complain about equality?

When they make it that you earn as much gold and mats as PvE player.

Fine. Deal.

Seriously guys, why do so many people shoot back with “well PvP has it’s own problems,” as if the best solution for that would be to impose new problems on other game modes? The best solution is to fix whatever problems you have with PvP, not to add problems to everyone else.

Ohoni.6057:

Seriously guys, why do so many people shoot back with “well PvP has it’s own problems,” as if the best solution for that would be to impose new problems on other game modes? The best solution is to fix whatever problems you have with PvP, not to add problems to everyone else.

While i do not agree with you on quite a number of points, with this i agree 200%. One gamemode having a problem is never a reason why another gamemode should also have it. Problems should be fixed, not passed on to others.

You call it a problem other people call it motivation…..

NeXeD.3042:

You call it a problem other people call it motivation…..

Not sure what other people you mean, because all those players that do bring that argumentation up clearly do see those as problems.

But yes, there are people that would label burning down your house as “pushing you out of your comfort zone” and setting you on fire as “fighting your cold”. Not sure how that has anything to do with the topic at hand though.

Astralporing.1957:

NeXeD.3042:

You call it a problem other people call it motivation…..

Not sure what other people you mean, because all those players that do bring that argumentation up clearly do see those as problems.

But yes, there are people that would label burning down your house as “pushing you out of your comfort zone” and setting you on fire as “fighting your cold”. Not sure how that has anything to do with the topic at hand though.

You call having items for specific game modes a problem. Others see it as motivation to do those game modes.

Ohoni.6057:

I didn’t say that it was silly to have exclusive items to specific game modes, I said it was silly for people to believe that owning these items somehow conveys “prestige.” If people want to do that, then that’s fine, but it shouldn’t be used as an excuse to exclude desirable skins from those players who might want them.

If you dont exclude somebody from getting that reward, its by definition not exclusive anymore.

You call having items for specific game modes a problem. Others see it as motivation to do those game modes.

I don’t see that as a benefit to anyone. If you do not enjoy a given game mode, then there’s no advantage to “motivating” you to play it. That is only motivating you to not enjoy yourself, which benefits no one.

Now again, there is a benefit to getting players to TRY a given activity, and unique rewards can be used for that, but such trial experiences should be short and sweet, taking an hour or two to accomplish. “Give it a shot, get a prize.” If, after that time, you do not enjoy the activity, then the game should give you no reason to come back.

For those who do enjoy that activity, there should be long term goals that they can accomplish there, but you should also be able to accomplish those long term goals elsewhere, perhaps in a slower and less efficient method, but still a viable one, so that people who enjoy the specific activity can do it as much as they like, and feel fairly rewarded fro their time and effort, while those who have tried it but genuinely do not enjoy it can move on to other things while still being able to work towards a goal that they want.

Win-win-win.

If you dont exclude somebody from getting that reward, its by definition not exclusive anymore.

And again, game modes can have truly exclusive items, they should just be fairly low hanging fruit, only earnable via a single activity, but fairly easy for anyone to earn if they give it a shot. Anything that is higher in the tree should be, at most, “associated” with the given activity. In such cases, they would be by far easiest to earn by “doing the intended thing,” but would also be possible to earn through some other method. A simple example is the new HoT map meta items, which are easiest to earn by doing that particular map’s meta, since you can earn dozens of the appropriate currencies per hour, but if you really hate that map you can do a different map instead and convert the currencies over at a 25:10 ratio, once per day, so it’d take a while to get hundreds of the second currency together, but it’s still possible (and you could argue that there should be even more options available to earn these things, and you’d be right, but that’s a whole separate conversation).

If there are to be truly “exclusive” AND high end rewards for specific content, then they should not come in the form of skins, they should be things like titles or bundles that players can show off without limiting actual character customization options. They should be things that no reasonable person would want except for the value in conveying that you’ve accomplished something.

Ohoni.6057:

To keep my opinions on this matter short, I think that having important, exclusive rewards is a must in each game mode (PvE, sPvP, WvW). It requires you a certain mastery of the game mode.

And I think that in principle this is fine, so long as it does not gate away cosmetic looks from players who cannot achieve that level of success. Any rewards that require high levels of skill and dedication should be things that are ONLY useful for establishing that you have those experiences, NOT items that players might want whether they want to establish those experiences or not.

And I think that in principle is fine, so long as it does not gate away any titles, nametag pips, achievements, gear, gathering tools, salvage kits, runes, sigils, infusions, consumables, etc. from players who cannot achieve that level of success. Any rewards for high skill or dedication should be ONLY for establishing that you did that, NOT something like titles, nametag pips, achievements, gear, gathering tools, salvage kits, runes, sigils, infusions, consumables, etc., that a player might want whether they want to establish those experiences or not.

/s

Ohoni.6057:

No. I’m disputing your assertion that having exclusive items for each game mode is silly. YOU are the one making an assertion.

I didn’t say that it was silly to have exclusive items to specific game modes, I said it was silly for people to believe that owning these items somehow conveys “prestige.” If people want to do that, then that’s fine, but it shouldn’t be used as an excuse to exclude desirable skins from those players who might want them.

Actually, you did, but you can’t tell because you don’t even properly quote in your posts, so I’ll do the legwork and post the original point here:

DeShadowWolf.6854:

Ohoni.6057:

Keep in mind, I’m not asking for a path that would be easier for me than the current PvP path is to serious PvPers, I’m just asking for a path that would be of equivalent difficulty to non-PvPers as the existing PvP path is for PvPers.

Keep in mind how I’ve explained how that would defeat the point of the item.

That looks to be pretty clearly about exclusivity for game modes.

Ohoni.6057:

If you dont exclude somebody from getting that reward, its by definition not exclusive anymore.

And again, game modes can have truly exclusive items, they should just be fairly low hanging fruit, only earnable via a single activity, but fairly easy for anyone to earn if they give it a shot. Anything that is higher in the tree should be, at most, “associated” with the given activity.

And this should be…..why?
Oh wait, I forgot, it’s so Ohoni can get what he wants.

Ohoni.6057:

If there are to be truly “exclusive” AND high end rewards for specific content, then they should not come in the form of skins, they should be things like titles or bundles that players can show off without limiting actual character customization options. They should be things that no reasonable person would want except for the value in conveying that you’ve accomplished something.

If there are to be truly “exclusive” AND high end rewards for specific content, then they should not come in the form of titles, nametag pips, achievements, gear, gathering tools, salvage kits, runes, sigils, infusions, consumables, etc. They should be things that no reasonable person would want except for the value in conveying that that you’ve accomplished something.

/s

And I think that in principle is fine, so long as it does not gate away any titles, nametag pips, achievements, gear, gathering tools, salvage kits, runes, sigils, infusions, consumables, etc. from players who cannot achieve that level of success.

Really truly? I mean, sigils, tools, etc., those I get, those can make a practical difference, but are you GENUINELY, in your heart upset by the idea that titles might be gated by content hurdles, or are you just saying that for the purposes of trolling?

If so, please explain why you feel that way so that we can understand you.

That looks to be pretty clearly about exclusivity for game modes.

Please read the comments I wrote later about the topic. It addresses why there is no contradiction there, but the short version is, rewards can be exclusive to content so long as they are easy to get, rewards that are hard to get should allow multiple equivalent paths.

And again, game modes can have truly exclusive items, they should just be fairly low hanging fruit, only earnable via a single activity, but fairly easy for anyone to earn if they give it a shot. Anything that is higher in the tree should be, at most, “associated” with the given activity.

And this should be…..why?
Oh wait, I forgot, it’s so Ohoni can get what he wants.

Ohoni and everyone else. The principle should be pretty easy to understand, it’s so that players are never left in the position of choosing to A. Spend a significant amount of their time grinding against content that they genuinely do not enjoy, or B. never getting the thing that they want.

That is a bad choice, whichever side you go with, and the developers should avoid forcing it on the players as best they can, by providing multiple options towards any long term goals. Disagree if you like, but don’t try to pretend that it does not make sense.

If there are to be truly “exclusive” AND high end rewards for specific content, then they should not come in the form of titles, nametag pips, achievements, gear, gathering tools, salvage kits, runes, sigils, infusions, consumables, etc. They should be things that no reasonable person would want except for the value in conveying that that you’ve accomplished something.

Again, I suspect you’re just trolling with this, but if not please explain where you are coming from.

Ohoni.6057:

Perhaps. For the record I’m currently in the last tier of Amber, and have been winning more than I lose lately (3-0 for tonight), but it can be a bit random.

Can you link your ranked W/L record please?

Hmm, I’m not exactly sure how to do that. I was 2:1 tonight though, back on my Dragon Hunter, the first match-up was a bit of a mess, and the third one one of the opponents had apparently dropped out so it counted as a :“bye.” I did manage to get into the Emerald tier though. Apparently in ranked I’m now at 26 matches, 50% winrate total (remember, my first dozen or so matches were disastrous so that really put me behind the curve).

I started to respond, but decided, what’s the point, they’ll just remove my post for containing quotes from a deleted post anyway. Good luck.

Astralporing.1957:

Dominik.5162:

No it’s a good choice to have items that only have one available path for them to get, people have been asking for exclusive items for god knows how long. If you’re not ok with that….nobody cares!!! People don’t really care for your opinion to only do this with low-level rewards either. Everybody else want the exclusive items to be high-tier rewards

Oh, please, some people want exclusive items to be high-tier rewards. Incidentally, those are generally only the people that think they are able to get those rewards themselves. The same people are often the first to scream bloody murder if they find out that their assumption has been wrong.

I’m not sure I’ll be able to put in the effort required to get the wings anytime soon, yet I’m not crying about them. I am of the opinion people should have something unique to shoot for, and it shouldn’t be easy to get.

Ohoni.6057:

I started to respond, but decided, what’s the point, they’ll just remove my post for containing quotes from a deleted post anyway. Good luck.

Maybe stop quoting 100 different users in a single post.

Ohoni.6057:

And I think that in principle is fine, so long as it does not gate away any titles, nametag pips, achievements, gear, gathering tools, salvage kits, runes, sigils, infusions, consumables, etc. from players who cannot achieve that level of success.

Really truly? I mean, sigils, tools, etc., those I get, those can make a practical difference, but are you GENUINELY, in your heart upset by the idea that titles might be gated by content hurdles, or are you just saying that for the purposes of trolling?

Maybe you missed the `/s` after? Either way, the logic stands: what you use to defend your position can be used in the exact same way to defend against what you are suggesting.

Ohoni.6057:

That looks to be pretty clearly about exclusivity for game modes.

Please read the comments I wrote later about the topic. It addresses why there is no contradiction there, but the short version is, rewards can be exclusive to content so long as they are easy to get, rewards that are hard to get should allow multiple equivalent paths.

The ‘other comments’ are irrelevant here. You denied that it was about exclusivity for game modes, and that quote proved that denial to be wrong. Maybe you can’t follow your own conversation, but I can.

Ohoni.6057:

And this should be…..why?
Oh wait, I forgot, it’s so Ohoni can get what he wants.

Ohoni and everyone else. The principle should be pretty easy to understand, it’s so that players are never left in the position of choosing to A. Spend a significant amount of their time grinding against content that they genuinely do not enjoy, or B. never getting the thing that they want.

We’ve been over this, it’s what spawned the whole ‘silly’ thing above.

Ohoni.6057:

That is a bad choice, whichever side you go with, and the developers should avoid forcing it on the players as best they can, by providing multiple options towards any long term goals. Disagree if you like, but don’t try to pretend that it does not make sense.

I’m not pretending that it doesn’t make sense. I’m “pretending” that the logic you’re using here is a) nonsensical, and b) counter to Anet’s intentions with the item. Because it is.

Ohoni.6057:

If there are to be truly “exclusive” AND high end rewards for specific content, then they should not come in the form of titles, nametag pips, achievements, gear, gathering tools, salvage kits, runes, sigils, infusions, consumables, etc. They should be things that no reasonable person would want except for the value in conveying that that you’ve accomplished something.

Again, I suspect you’re just trolling with this, but if not please explain where you are coming from.

Again, you missed the `/s`.

I’m enjoying the league, despite picking up some bad players and is still in Emerald, so let’s stop complaining throwing blame on anet and we will learn to play

Maybe you missed the `/s` after? Either way, the logic stands: what you use to defend your position can be used in the exact same way to defend against what you are suggesting.

That might be the point you were trying to make, but you failed to actually make it. You took my words and “turned them around,” but they looked silly when turned around in a way that did not apply to the original version, like putting a perfectly nice suit on backwards. Your version was silly, my version was not. You presented a situation that rang false because no actual humans supported it. If you want something, argue in favor of what you actually want, don’t argue in favor of imaginary people that don’t actually exist.

I’m not pretending that it doesn’t make sense. I’m “pretending” that the logic you’re using here is a) nonsensical, and b) counter to Anet’s intentions with the item. Because it is.

“I’m not pretending that it doesn’t make sense, I’m just pretending that it is nonsensical.” Got it.

Ohoni.6057:

Maybe you missed the `/s` after? Either way, the logic stands: what you use to defend your position can be used in the exact same way to defend against what you are suggesting.

That might be the point you were trying to make, but you failed to actually make it. You took my words and “turned them around,” but they looked silly when turned around in a way that did not apply to the original version, like putting a perfectly nice suit on backwards.

See, that’s half the point. The logic simply doesn’t make sense. If you see it in another argument, it looks silly.

Ohoni.6057:

Your version was silly, my version was not.

Subjective, much? Again, argument to the stone.

Ohoni.6057:

You presented a situation that rang false because no actual humans supported it. If you want something, argue in favor of what you actually want, don’t argue in favor of imaginary people that don’t actually exist.

ahahahahahaha….good one.

Ohoni.6057:

I’m not pretending that it doesn’t make sense. I’m “pretending” that the logic you’re using here is a) nonsensical, and b) counter to Anet’s intentions with the item. Because it is.

“I’m not pretending that it doesn’t make sense, I’m just pretending that it is nonsensical.” Got it.

You don’t understand the difference between your position and the logic you use to defend it. Got it.

See, that’s half the point. The logic simply doesn’t make sense. If you see it in another argument, it looks silly.

No, my logic makes sense because I applied it to a reasonable context. Your rewording of it did not make sense because it no longer had that context. It’s like how a screen door is a perfectly good door to put on a house, but less appropriate on a submarine. You can’t just take someone’s paragraph, change the words around, and then use that as “proof” that the original paragraph did not make sense, merely because your new version does not make sense.

Reasonable is clearly your opinion here.

Ohoni.6057:

See, that’s half the point. The logic simply doesn’t make sense. If you see it in another argument, it looks silly.

No, my logic makes sense because I applied it to a reasonable context.

NeXeD.3042:

Reasonable is clearly your opinion here.

Go on.

Your rewording of it did not make sense because it no longer had that context. It’s like how a screen door is a perfectly good door to put on a house, but less appropriate on a submarine. You can’t just take someone’s paragraph, change the words around, and then use that as “proof” that the original paragraph did not make sense, merely because your new version does not make sense.

You still don’t know the difference between a position and logic.

Let me explain. I’m arguing that your logic makes no sense. Logic can have all the pieces taken out, and someone could still understand how it works. For example, let’s look at this logical fallacy: if P, then Q; not P, therefore not Q. P and Q could be any statement, and the format still works. The only issue with this particular example is that non-P things can cause Q. But the statements in the argument can be substituted.

DeShadowWolf.6854:

Ohoni.6057:

See, that’s half the point. The logic simply doesn’t make sense. If you see it in another argument, it looks silly.

No, my logic makes sense because I applied it to a reasonable context.

NeXeD.3042:

Reasonable is clearly your opinion here.

Go on.

Your rewording of it did not make sense because it no longer had that context. It’s like how a screen door is a perfectly good door to put on a house, but less appropriate on a submarine. You can’t just take someone’s paragraph, change the words around, and then use that as “proof” that the original paragraph did not make sense, merely because your new version does not make sense.

You still don’t know the difference between a position and logic.

Let me explain. I’m arguing that your logic makes no sense. Logic can have all the pieces taken out, and someone could still understand how it works. For example, let’s look at this logical fallacy: if P, then Q; not P, therefore not Q. P and Q could be any statement, and the format still works. The only issue with this particular example is that non-P things can cause Q. But the statements in the argument can be substituted.

There’s no point going on, he is either a brilliant troll or blissfully ignorant.

I was on Kaypuds stream when he got the wings couple days ago. Huge. Very ornate.

You never liked pvp in the first place so I don’t understand why this thread got the attention it did in the first place.

The reward is very difficult for people that love to pvp. What more for someone who doesn’t?

Let me explain. I’m arguing that your logic makes no sense. Logic can have all the pieces taken out, and someone could still understand how it works. For example, let’s look at this logical fallacy: if P, then Q; not P, therefore not Q. P and Q could be any statement, and the format still works. The only issue with this particular example is that non-P things can cause Q. But the statements in the argument can be substituted.

Sure, but as your own example shows, if you removed an item from my situation and replaced it with another, then it no longer made sense, it did not fit your pattern. You keep trying to create puzzles to obfuscate the fact that you had no actual point to begin with.

Let me make it simple for you. “And I think that in principle this is fine, so long as it does not gate away [cosmetic looks] from players who cannot achieve that level of success.” Is a statement that makes sense, because there is a not insignificant number of players who actually care about cosmetic appearance, and who are disgruntled when cosmetic items are put outside of their reach.

Changing that term to something that is not equivalently regarded, such as titles or nametag pips, changes the meaning of the sentence, causing it to no longer make sense. 5 + [X] = 7 does make sense if X = 2, it does not make sense if you just arbitrarily substitute some other value, and saying “5 + 6 = 7 makes no sense” does not invalidate someone saying that 5 +2 does equal 7.

I was on Kaypuds stream when he got the wings couple days ago. Huge. Very ornate.

I was on Kaypuds stream when he got the wings couple days ago. Huge. Very ornate.[/quote]

How is it possible for anyone to already have the wings? I thought that one of the requirements was a hard time gate of playing X matches per day over several months worth of days. It hasn’t even been the minimum 15 days yet.

They can gateway aesthetics all they want, performance is the only no no

They can gateway aesthetics all they want, performance is the only no no

They can gateway performance all they want, aesthetics is the only no no

NeXeD.3042:

They can gateway aesthetics all they want, performance is the only no no

You don’t even need to do well to get the legendary wings. You just need to complete Amber ten times which has no tier or pip loss.

Ohoni.6057:

Let me explain. I’m arguing that your logic makes no sense. Logic can have all the pieces taken out, and someone could still understand how it works. For example, let’s look at this logical fallacy: if P, then Q; not P, therefore not Q. P and Q could be any statement, and the format still works. The only issue with this particular example is that non-P things can cause Q. But the statements in the argument can be substituted.

Sure, but as your own example shows, if you removed an item from my situation and replaced it with another, then it no longer made sense, it did not fit your pattern. You keep trying to create puzzles to obfuscate the fact that you had no actual point to begin with.

lol

If you really want to know what I’m getting at, I’m essentially making a reductio ad absurdum argument. I’m showing that by accepting the logic you are using, we can reach the exact opposite conclusion, thus showing the logic to be nonsensical. Seeing as how you’ve already agreed that the opposite conclusion under the same logic makes no sense, all that remains is for you to gain a little bit of self-awareness.

Ohoni.6057:

Let me make it simple for you. “And I think that in principle this is fine, so long as it does not gate away [cosmetic looks] from players who cannot achieve that level of success.” Is a statement that makes sense, because there is a not insignificant number of players who actually care about cosmetic appearance, and who are disgruntled when cosmetic items are put outside of their reach.

Uh-huh…uh-huh..

Many people doesn’t make an illogical statement logical. Nevermind the complete lack of evidence of said people.

Ohoni.6057:

Changing that term to something that is not equivalently regarded, such as titles or nametag pips, changes the meaning of the sentence, causing it to no longer make sense.

Yes, it changes the meaning of the sentence. But it doesn’t change the actual argument, just the position it’s being used for. You can’t seem to grasp this.

Ohoni.6057:

5 + [X] = 7 does make sense if X = 2, it does not make sense if you just arbitrarily substitute some other value, and saying “5 + 6 = 7 makes no sense” does not invalidate someone saying that 5 +2 does equal 7.

I don’t see what this has to do with any of the rest of this; your argument a) doesn’t really translate into math, and b) has nothing to do with the structure 5 + x = 7. Please clarify what this has to do with the arguments, as I don’t see the analogy actually making any sense.

Ohoni.6057:

They can gateway aesthetics all they want, performance is the only no no

They can gateway performance all they want, aesthetics is the only no no

This is why your position fails. All you can do (and here this applies to you too, NeXeD) is assert your opinion. No evidence, no real logic, just good old assertions.

NeXeD.3042:

There’s no point going on, he is either a brilliant troll or blissfully ignorant.

I enjoy it.

I’m showing that by accepting the logic you are using, we can reach the exact opposite conclusion, thus showing the logic to be nonsensical.

That may be what you’re trying to do, and those who already agree with you might agree with this as well, but you actually aren’t doing that, because the original holds up, while the modified one does not, proving nothing in the end.

Many people doesn’t make an illogical statement logical. Nevermind the complete lack of evidence of said people.

But it is not an illogical statement, it does not need to be made logical, it always was. It’s based on the greatest good for the greatest number. If you say “it would be good to give everyone all the [food] they want.” you could then “flip that on it’s head” to the new “you should give everyone all the [fishing lures] that they want,” omg, same sentence structure, different words, the latter is ridiculous so the former must also be ridiculous. . . well, no. It doesn’t work that way. The former is something that most people would agree would be a beneficial situation, as many people are known to favor having food available to them. The latter seems rather pointless because relatively few people would actually care about getting fishing lures. Again, you can’t just swap words around until a sentence breaks, and then claim that this makes any revelation on the original sentence.

Yes, it changes the meaning of the sentence. But it doesn’t change the actual argument, just the position it’s being used for. You can’t seem to grasp this.

The “actual argument” and the sentence go hand in hand. You can’t have one without the other.

This is why your position fails. All you can do (and here this applies to you too, NeXeD) is assert your opinion. No evidence, no real logic, just good old assertions.

So? Greatest good for the greatest number. All that matters is opinion. Factually there’s no reason not to, so it all comes down to which side of the opinion argument is stronger.

I hate anet very much.

Ohoni.6057:

So? Greatest good for the greatest number. All that matters is opinion. Factually there’s no reason not to, so it all comes down to which side of the opinion argument is stronger.

That’s the sort of irresponsible arguing that causes so many trolling ventures to fail. You’re forgetting the third rule.