Guild Wars 2

oZii.2864:

milo.6942:

Allie Murdock.8152:

Guild Wars is a very different game from Guild Wars 2. I understand the sentiment (I myself was a Guild Wars player, Spearmen 44/50!), but we did not build a new game to be just like an old one. While we can certainly gain inspiration from it, comparing the two skill systems is not very helpful because they are vastly different.

Then why call it Guild Wars?

Are you serious? That can’t be serious response at all. When people make a sequel to a movie if they want it to be successful they don’t make the exact same movie. You continue story lines draw inspiration but you don’t want it to be a remake you want it to be reimagined (see recent Batman movies and recent Man of Steel)

If we look at games you can get away with sequels that are pretty much the same game with a 2 on it for a little while. Eventually people find it old or they feel ripped off I am talking about yearly releases like Call of Duty, Madden, Street Fighter 2 (insert several variations of the same game with new characters)

If GW2 was GW1 with shiny new graphics people would play it enjoy it but if you want to last you have to make the sequel different enough from the original especially if you want to draw in new players.

I wasn’t trolling. What does gw2 have in common with gw1 gameplay? If you are making a sequel, it’s because you want to expand on the prequel. If you want to start from scratch then start a new offshoot franchise.

milo.6942:

Allie Murdock.8152:

Guild Wars is a very different game from Guild Wars 2. I understand the sentiment (I myself was a Guild Wars player, Spearmen 44/50!), but we did not build a new game to be just like an old one. While we can certainly gain inspiration from it, comparing the two skill systems is not very helpful because they are vastly different.

Then why call it Guild Wars?

Because the game world is the same, because the lore is the same, etc..
Having the same name and being a sequel does not mean that the gameplay should remain the same (if you want an example, look at the Final Fantasy games, same name, totally different world and gameplay each time)
Otherwise they could have just upgraded GW1 graphic engine :p

Shar.3402:

milo.6942:

Allie Murdock.8152:

Guild Wars is a very different game from Guild Wars 2. I understand the sentiment (I myself was a Guild Wars player, Spearmen 44/50!), but we did not build a new game to be just like an old one. While we can certainly gain inspiration from it, comparing the two skill systems is not very helpful because they are vastly different.

Then why call it Guild Wars?

Because the game world is the same, because the lore is the same, etc..
Having the same name and being a sequel does not mean that the gameplay should remain the same (if you want an example, look at the Final Fantasy games, same name, totally different world and gameplay each time)
Otherwise they could have just upgraded GW1 graphic engine :p

Guild wars 1 got so many things right, it is very sad to see that they threw all of it out, and made a different game that can’t even support basic deathmatch combat, let alone the pioneering pvp formats GvG and HA. But it’s great that we have lore continuity…

Laxuar.3504:

And pls stop thinking that you have to balance for Hight level PvP, Low Level, WvW and PvE. Just balance for Hight lvl PvP. A more difficult game is better because ppl will get happy if they fill that they learn how to play difficult builds. And PvE and WvW who cares if it isn’t perfect? If i love ranger, that is weak, i play him in WvW or PvE.
But this is only a my opinion.

To paraphrase a popular quote: I respect your right to have your opinion but I think it’s utter bollocks.

Your reasoning might be solid if the player base was evenly split between pvp, pve and wvw. As it stands however, I’d be surprised if the part that focuses on tpvp (I don’t count hot join since that’s a mess) makes up even 5% and I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s less than 1%. I believe, as a very large part of the posters seems to do, that the best option would be a split between pvp and pve/ww for skills and traits (I’d even go as far as saying it’s needed if gw2 is to be a succesful esport). Failing that though, tpvp should IMO have the lowest priority when it comes to game changes based on what content players focus on. I’m not saying to ignore tpvp but no change there should have a detrimntal effect on ve or wvw.

There was just now got a split for Dhuumfire with pvp having a shorter duration. Ths is IMO acceptable since 1) pve/wvw has got more tools for shortening condition duations (e.g. lemongrass) 2) a tpvp team is often more coordinated than a wvw or pve group and can more easily make sure there is a decent amount of condis up 3) burning, as something stackng duration, is less useful when there are more people attacking a target. The reason being that pvp has different objectives – more focus on controlling a spot and small scale fights) while pve and wvw have got access to a wider variety of tools and the focus differs as well.

Allie Murdock.8152:

Thanks Folly!

ilr.9675, I definitely understand your point of view, but understand that observing the CoC/ToS is very important on these forums. I would post on there more, but I think my PvP title makes people think I only ever care or think about PvP (which is definitely not true). I don’t think it’s possible to estimate how many skills we would have to split, but I can say that if we feel it is absolutely necessary for the health of the game, we will split a skill/trait.

It is absolutely necessary for the health of the game. I’m a huge fan of Guild Wars. I love the game with all my heart. It is number 1 on my top 10 games of all time. I will defend the game to my grave. I will not, however, Defend Guild Wars 2 in the same way. The reason being is you are making the same mistakes you did in Guild Wars 1 expecting that the outcome will be different just because the skill system is different.

However what you need to understand is that the similarities that the 2 games hold are glaringly obvious to a PvE player who has played both games. The Damage scaling and health scaling for example might function on 2 completely different systems, but the end result of what you are trying to do is the same. So the same problems arise from this as it did in the first game.

There needs to be a split between PvE and PvP. personally, I believe that there should be a split between PvP, PvE and WvW, but that is getting ahead of myself. Going back to what I said earlier, I’m being warn down by the balance problems that are cropping up in PvE because of the balance being made for PvP players. Where some professions might be fine in PvP, they are suffering greatly in PvE because of the balance required for PvP.

A Huge example of this is the change you guys made to death shroud. By making the damage bleed over, combine with the fact that the necro doesn’t have ways to block, teleport, stealth, or go invulnerable in a pinch it leaves them at the mercy of many of the enemy attacks to take them in full. Before the update I was doing fine. Not great, just fine. After the update I am now struggling more then ever in situations where my glass cannon Mesmer wouldn’t have a problem surviving. I understand that this change might be good for PvP, however a change like this to already undesirable profession harms the over all usability in that format and further continues stagnation of combat in the meta.

This also posses a problem considering that Your PvP and PvE have 2 sets of rules for combat and engagement. Where as In PvP you might be able to bring a large number of CC to try and limit your foes options in the engagement, in PvE the enemies don’t use the same skillls that you do and have a completely different way of attacking then a player would. Thus balancing the system on one of them will always cause problems with the other.

GW1 had the advantage in balance on this part as the enemy forces all used most of the same skills that you as a player had access to and followed the same rules of engagement. However, even GW1 proved that the split between the skills was absolutely necessary even with a much closer resemblance between the 2 formats.

So in conclusion, assuming that it isn’t needed, or very little of it is needed is a disservice to your PvE community.

Allie Murdock.8152:

Guild Wars is a very different game from Guild Wars 2. I understand the sentiment (I myself was a Guild Wars player, Spearmen 44/50!), but we did not build a new game to be just like an old one. While we can certainly gain inspiration from it, comparing the two skill systems is not very helpful because they are vastly different.

well i played alot of things , and as far as the older generation of gamers remember , some things never needed to be changed , that they were GREAT concepts to have that didnt make the game bad , and promoted it to boot for such a great part of it that it successfully did that. I grant i missed out on EQ1 and such , came in just before wows launch but started on a little “kiddie” type of mmo , which was fun beyond belief for me , as its sequel is now making its way to america (iRO) , but thats offtopic on that XD I think doing that seperate skill system like we saw in GW1 will save alot off grief for ppl and can have a team dedicated for pvp balance and one for pve balance. that way complaints are just mostly left up to pvps at a majority while pvers wont get hurt by the ones complaining in pvp , and vice versa.

PS i wasnt an alliance / guild battle person , i was always a fort aspenwood / jade quarry guy , i love objective based pvp (aka i love wvw here)

Lily.1935:

Allie Murdock.8152:

Thanks Folly!

ilr.9675, I definitely understand your point of view, but understand that observing the CoC/ToS is very important on these forums. I would post on there more, but I think my PvP title makes people think I only ever care or think about PvP (which is definitely not true). I don’t think it’s possible to estimate how many skills we would have to split, but I can say that if we feel it is absolutely necessary for the health of the game, we will split a skill/trait.

It is absolutely necessary for the health of the game. I’m a huge fan of Guild Wars. I love the game with all my heart. It is number 1 on my top 10 games of all time. I will defend the game to my grave. I will not, however, Defend Guild Wars 2 in the same way. The reason being is you are making the same mistakes you did in Guild Wars 1 expecting that the outcome will be different just because the skill system is different.

However what you need to understand is that the similarities that the 2 games hold are glaringly obvious to a PvE player who has played both games. The Damage scaling and health scaling for example might function on 2 completely different systems, but the end result of what you are trying to do is the same. So the same problems arise from this as it did in the first game.

There needs to be a split between PvE and PvP. personally, I believe that there should be a split between PvP, PvE and WvW, but that is getting ahead of myself. Going back to what I said earlier, I’m being warn down by the balance problems that are cropping up in PvE because of the balance being made for PvP players. Where some professions might be fine in PvP, they are suffering greatly in PvE because of the balance required for PvP.

A Huge example of this is the change you guys made to death shroud. By making the damage bleed over, combine with the fact that the necro doesn’t have ways to block, teleport, stealth, or go invulnerable in a pinch it leaves them at the mercy of many of the enemy attacks to take them in full. Before the update I was doing fine. Not great, just fine. After the update I am now struggling more then ever in situations where my glass cannon Mesmer wouldn’t have a problem surviving. I understand that this change might be good for PvP, however a change like this to already undesirable profession harms the over all usability in that format and further continues stagnation of combat in the meta.

This also posses a problem considering that Your PvP and PvE have 2 sets of rules for combat and engagement. Where as In PvP you might be able to bring a large number of CC to try and limit your foes options in the engagement, in PvE the enemies don’t use the same skillls that you do and have a completely different way of attacking then a player would. Thus balancing the system on one of them will always cause problems with the other.

GW1 had the advantage in balance on this part as the enemy forces all used most of the same skills that you as a player had access to and followed the same rules of engagement. However, even GW1 proved that the split between the skills was absolutely necessary even with a much closer resemblance between the 2 formats.

So in conclusion, assuming that it isn’t needed, or very little of it is needed is a disservice to your PvE community.

yes pve and pvp do need to be seperated , the one that would be challenging due to the npcs being there is WvW , in essence you look at a PvPvE type of situation making that one a tough call to make. PvPvE isnt a new concept , but its still a fun concept nonetheless , WvW is the new part / change to the PvPvE thing and i love it myself , granted i didnt play DaoC i think it was? Anyway , i can see issues arrising in trying to balance WvW just because its the mix of PvPvE thing , adjust it with pvp and taking down the npcs might be more troublesome , as those of us that played warhammer online :Age of Reckoning saw where you had mini bosses before the king fight that 2 shotted tanks and 1 shotted anyone else , while dealing with other players , theres challening and then theres ridiculousness , i prefer the challenging myself , but then we have to be careful here when trying to balance a pvpve type of thing , one wrong step and it could bring up ALOT of complaints.

oZii.2864:

Huh? I don’t want every skill and every trait split I edited my post to add that in there. So I completely agree. with you.

I don’t think any of us expect every single skill to be split either.

…just repeating that b/c Hyperbole tends to go both directions; I’ve noticed lately..

Obviously that would be a huge waste of resources when so many utilities saw very little changes since launch. And not for lack of effort, but lack of necessity. That said, we can ALL point to damage nerfs, or Defensive skills who’s durations were lopped in half… and ask why those changes had to affect PvE & dungeons especially? (or WvW’s case, there’s the compounding issue of Balling up for SAFETY against AOE due to the 5 target limit which is completely counter-intuitive to the “Threat” that an AOE is supposed provide; Ergo, making an already zergy format even Zergier which in-turn just further isolates it from sPVP balance)

What I’m trying to say, is that NOT splitting enough skills, begets a vicious cycle.