Guild Wars 2

Evan Lesh.3295:

Thanks for the feedback, everyone.

This thread has responses pointing out issues in the current iteration of leagues and using those flaws as reasons why a rating and point (pip) system cannot both be used in tandem as I suggested in my original response. The issues mentioned include restrictive matchmaking based on pips, small tier sizes creating a large sense of loss when dropping pips, and a lack of prestige because of win streaks and rating-based matchmaking.

With that said, I’d like to clarify my original comment regarding using both pips and MMR. Our goals for leagues are still the same: create opportunities for skill-based prestige, give rewards for effort, and keep a low barrier to entry. We’ve tried to hit these goals with different iterations of a catch-all pip system; each emphasizing a different goal at the expense of the others. Pips are an easy to understand system for delivering rewards, but we understand that rating is a more accurate display of skill. We are now looking at how we can leverage the strengths of these systems individually to better succeed at reaching all of our goals. Both pips and rating can be used within the system if they are focused on solving specific problems – not all of them.

I think the important thing here is that when you guys do come up with a system you think works, tell us about it. Don’t just dump it on our doorsteps when it’s already too late to change, and say “this is the system that will be happening next season, deal with it.” When you feel you’ve come up with a system you think works for you, let us know about it, let us discuss it, let us provide feedback on it, and give yourself the space to fix any issues we raise with it BEFORE it becomes locked in as the new normal.

And remember, give PvPers a good reason to be excited about the league, but one which does NOT involve PvEers having to spend more than a few hours in PvP to get something really cool looking for their character. Whatever reward mechanisms are in place, they should only be things that PvP players would want or need (beyond a small reward designed to give PvEers a chance to try it out).

Evan Lesh.3295:

/fifteencharacters

Because Pips are binary, either win or lose, no extra for a close match or if you manage to win even if you had a game score of 50-200 at some point, also it doesn’t matter if you lose 499-500 or 0-500, why bother if you lose in both cases the same amount of pips, expect you lose more time (potential pips you could gain) if ypu try to give a good match

The next problem, if i fight against equally skilled on saphire, the win ratio will always be aroubd 50%, also two common rubs soilders can be on totally different skill levels, and both stuck in ruby, because their mmr gives one good ruby enemys and the other one bad ruby enenys – but because they are equally good/bad they have the same win/lose ratio – remove mmr and the good ones would move up and the ‘bad’ ones would stay in their tier

Ohoni.6057:

And remember, give PvPers a good reason to be excited about the league, but one which does NOT involve PvEers having to spend more than a few hours in PvP to get something really cool looking for their character. Whatever reward mechanisms are in place, they should only be things that PvP players would want or need (beyond a small reward designed to give PvEers a chance to try it out).

How about skins that are only vissible in PvP areas?

How about skins that are only vissible in PvP areas?

Yeah, that’d be fine, or finishers, titles, anything that is either used almost exclusively in PvP elements of the game, or that serves ONLY to say “look how great a PvP guy this is!,” without also being anything that someone would want whether they care what a good PvP guy they are or not.

Tiefsee.3647:

Ohoni.6057:

And remember, give PvPers a good reason to be excited about the league, but one which does NOT involve PvEers having to spend more than a few hours in PvP to get something really cool looking for their character. Whatever reward mechanisms are in place, they should only be things that PvP players would want or need (beyond a small reward designed to give PvEers a chance to try it out).

How about skins that are only vissible in PvP areas?

Just make it a skin and not an actual legendary item and that would reduce the “demand” from non pvp players. Ive said it a million times, one of the biggest mistakes ANET made was making a PVE item as a prestige PVP reward. A Skin would have been much better.

Jourdelune.7456:

Evan Lesh.3295:

…

Both pips and rating can be used within the system if they are focused on solving specific problems – not all of them.

PIPS to grind rewards.

Rating or Ranking to show prestige.

But don’t forget, Ranking to match similar Ranked together versus similar Ranked together. So, it would like (casual, casual, casual, casual, casual) vs. (casual, casual, casual, casual, casual) or (decent, decent, decent, decent, decent) vs. (decent, decent, decent, decent, decent).

The rating / ranking is just not to show prestige, is to help match-making put people of equal skills together so the matches are more “fair”.

Fully agree with above.

“So, it would like (casual, casual, casual, casual, casual) vs. (casual, casual, casual, casual, casual) or (decent, decent, decent, decent, decent) vs. (decent, decent, decent, decent, decent). "

This is key to the longevity and fun level of PvP. As a player who has over 6200 games under my belt, consistently being place on teams with players who are novice and below is not an enjoyable experience. That’s why I hardly play anymore and if it stays like that next season I won’t play period. I want to play with players around my skill level, definitely not below. That’s probably where a lot of the player hate is coming from. When you mix high skill level with noobs that is going to happen. That is completely the wrong way to make games challenging and it’s pretty revealing Anet thought that was a viable solution. Then again it’s been 4 seasons and we’re no closer to a solution so I’m not surprised.

Just make it a skin and not an actual legendary item and that would reduce the “demand” from non pvp players.

I would much prefer it be a Legendary item and not a unique skin than for it to be a unique skin. I mean if it’s super ugly and I wouldn’t want it, then fine, but I didn’t go through the unending torment of the Path to Ascension for a kittening purple backpack, I did it for a very cool looking pair of wings. I would have done the same if it had been just a skin, but if it had just been some purple backpack like Ad Infinitum then I wouldn’t have bothered.

Pips and MMR are both useful but …
MMR is useless if it doesnt reprensent personal skill and this in GW2 means per class. You need to find a way that MMR is personal and not dependent from a five player team. Currently this only works if you constantly have full premades. Then players are largely diffrent in with classes. So you need to lock class for each match and use a per class MMR for the schedule.

Evan Lesh.3295:

Ensign.2189:

Evan Lesh.3295:

/fifteencharacters

Because to make them play nice with each other, without impairing matchmaking, requires pips to behave in very specific ways that are more complex than anything currently on the table.

If they do not behave the right way, one or more of the three – MMR, matchmaking, or pips – will behave poorly. In seasons 1 and 4, you chose pips; in 2 and 3, matchmaking.

The current system is definitely trying to do too many things and each aspect suffers because of this. I think pips are an appealing reward system and I also think MMR is a good skill system. We need to work on getting each part of the system focusing on what they do best.

Only things I’m going to say is. There is a reason why in dedicated sPvP games, only ELO in current division is considered when matching players with and against each other.

Pips is only good if you want to have non competitive game that grind base. Match Making off of ELO is good for competitive games that are skill base. Make sure that players can see other players ELO as well.

Trying to mix both together just creates a whole new super toxic monster. It also pushes your once competitive players to play other dedicated sPvP skilled based ranked leagues in other games. It makes your once causal players want to do unspeakable things to them selves and others, which just makes them create toxicity in the community. In the end by trying to mix both. You end up catering to no one but, people who just like to burn ants with a magnifying glass. You’ll keep their attention for maybe 2 or 3 weeks, then they get bored and move on as well.

Well, I found my MMR or whatever decides about our matches, quite dissapointing. Dunno why previous 3 seasons were decent for me but now I had a lot (and still have but on unranked) of lost matches in total blowouts which made me very discouraged to play ranked again.
I was doing well enough to eventually reach legendary, though I didn’t due to other affairs that happen to all of us outside of the game.
Now I think I’ll take my leave from ranked play until I get a better rig and a stable internet connection.
It is infuriating how in the most cruicial moments I end up unable to fight and execute attacks that would mean my opponent’s defeat.
But in the end of the day I say that balancing is heading in the right direction, S3 for me was enjoyable.

And as I like to say: Some must lose so that others could win. There will always be those who get losing/winning streaks, someone has to pay the price.

Evan Lesh.3295:

Thanks for the feedback, everyone.

This thread has responses pointing out issues in the current iteration of leagues and using those flaws as reasons why a rating and point (pip) system cannot both be used in tandem as I suggested in my original response. The issues mentioned include restrictive matchmaking based on pips, small tier sizes creating a large sense of loss when dropping pips, and a lack of prestige because of win streaks and rating-based matchmaking.

With that said, I’d like to clarify my original comment regarding using both pips and MMR. Our goals for leagues are still the same: create opportunities for skill-based prestige, give rewards for effort, and keep a low barrier to entry. We’ve tried to hit these goals with different iterations of a catch-all pip system; each emphasizing a different goal at the expense of the others. Pips are an easy to understand system for delivering rewards, but we understand that rating is a more accurate display of skill. We are now looking at how we can leverage the strengths of these systems individually to better succeed at reaching all of our goals. Both pips and rating can be used within the system if they are focused on solving specific problems – not all of them.

I’ve said all year that pips are a glorified reward track and that pvp should use mmr only for making matches and you ought to either throw out leagues and turn them into a ranked only reward track or (minimally) keep leagues only as a glorified reward track. :o

Evan Lesh.3295:

/fifteencharacters

Because you don’t need both, and trying to have both ends up with a system that suits neither.

The whole point of ranked is that you’re supposed to be able to rise to the rank your skill deserves, and then you get to have a fifty/fifty chance of winning a given match. If you’re a better player than the average in your tier, you should be able to rise until you’re about average for your tier.

Pips, alone, should be the matchmaking method. Match people who are as close as possible in league standing. If there’s someone who’s particularly good compared to most people in the tier they’re in, they will naturally rise, and sooner or later you’ll have balanced games because most people in a given tier will have similar skill levels to those they play with and those they play against.

Including MMR into the system distorts that:

Under the current system, a good player can often end up stuck well below the league tier they should be in because the system tries to make each game balanced. The player with a high MMR compared to their tier ends up being teamed with players well below their skill level, and can easily be dragged down, particularly since even when they do manage to carry that just raises the bar for future games.

Still an improvement over the S2 and S3 system, where a low MMR was an oubliette from which there was no escape. However, if you’re going to have a ranking system, then players who are more skilled than their rank indicates should be able to rise in rank until their rank matches their skill.