Guild Wars 2

Maybe its just me, I’m running a low toughness P/P thief but I feel as though the mesmer illusions do way too much damage for what they are. There have been times where the illusions alone(the mesmer was ignoring me while firing treb shots) have almost killed me. I really hope this isn’t working as intended.

“I’m running a low toughness P/P thief”

You’ve answered your own question

Looks like you’ll have to take the 0.5 seconds to kill that illusion then!

I played a Thief until I rolled a Mesmer. We all know there is a problem, and it has been stated in the forums so many times. The problem with fixing the Mesmer is having to break the entire class mechanics of Mesmer to make it viable. This isn’t going to happen soon, so just everyone roll a Mesmer for sPvP and problem solved. :P

P.S. I was just playing against a Thief that was doing 8k in Bleeds alone, so you’re doing something wrong anyway.

By low toughness I mean ~900. Thats what most thieves in general run with without speccing specifically for it. Also illusions take a lot longer than .5 seconds to kill. Typically it will take 3-4 auto attacks to kill one illussion, I can’t really use any initiative skills on the illussions or else I have nothing to hit the Mesmer with.

Mesmers are a pretty solid hard counter to thieves. The problem is that the mesmer phantasms/illusions are inherently tied to the target they are summoned on, this means that when the target dies they die. It also means that they will only attack this one target, so when a thief goes stealth the phantasms will stop attacking essentially saving their recharge for the moment the thief unstealths at which point the phantasm will instantly attack the thief rendering the defence mechanisms of the thief worthless against a reasonable mesmer.

Doomdazzle.4392:

By low toughness I mean ~900. Thats what most thieves in general run with without speccing specifically for it. Also illusions take a lot longer than .5 seconds to kill. Typically it will take 3-4 auto attacks to kill one illussion, I can’t really use any initiative skills on the illussions or else I have nothing to hit the Mesmer with.

If you’re having initiative issues, you’re not speccing right.

“By low toughness I mean ~900.”

You keep giving the answer, but you’re not able to see it. Try and look at what I’ve quoted a few times, it might sink in.

“If you’re having initiative issues, you’re not speccing right.”

Do you know of a P/P spec that has initiative regen save klepto?

Don’t know why Hunter has trouble understanding that a toughness speced thief is almost useless.

And a damage spec thief that passively dies to an illusionary pet that fires once every half hour while the mesmer is on a treb (your example, not mine) is definitely a worthwhile addition to a team. Can I sign you up for my tourney team?

(HINT – IF YOU STAY ALIVE YOU CAN DO MORE DAMAGE!)

He had more than just one illusion up. Its not like I almost died to the single one, that’s why I opened with saying it was illusions. The guy even agreed with me after the tourny that they do too much damage and he’s expecting a nerf.

Oh well if one anecdotal event happened where one mesmer claimed imbalance, thats all the discussion I need. Case closed boys, we can wrap this one up and let arenanet talk to the guy that got solo’d by illusions and let him deal with class balance for this game.

Please dude, you almost died to pets. as a THIEF. Honest to God my brain hurts thinking about it. I…rarely say this, but illusions aren’t the problem. You are.

But seriously… just kill the phantasms. If they pose such a serious threat, surely 3-4 auto attacks are worth it.

The thing about a properly spec’d phantasm mesmer is that you are a solid damage per second class as opposed to the burst build that most other classes are running. You have the points to make yourself just tanky enough to survive the opening burst at which point the glass cannons then fold before your continued damage output with survivability.

It’s very very rare that a phantasm mesmer will burst 100%—>0%. I’ve seen it, maybe 3times, every single one was me dropping feedback and the glass cannon actually gibbing themselves. The only time my phantasms have come close is I had 2 duelists and a warlock on this thief, he then reopened on me inside of a chaos storm+chaos armor and I got lucky with crits, even then the fight had been going about 15 seconds and I had the stars align on a full glass cannon thief.

Do you know of a P/P spec that has initiative regen save klepto?

Yes, the builds that obviously work…

If your getting dps’d down by the mesmers illusions they have specced for the phantasms/illusions to do the damage. Switch to short bow, kill the kittens, then switch back to single target and burst the mesmer.
If you still die, you are straight up bad.

The only thing they need to change about mesmers is the illusions till being alive once the mesmer is downed

9k dmg from 2 illusinary sword attacks…

Fine nerf illusions nerf MOA Bird nerf time warp.

But then get the hell rid of P.Whip and Hundred Blades

Tell me one Mesmer build that does15k with a single click of a button

I feel bad for all the people who think mesmers are going to get nerfed because they cant counterplay. Go ahead and play mesmer too if you feel thats your only solution. Just dont expect significant nerfs.

Lewk.8359:

9k dmg from 2 illusinary sword attacks…

That’s relatively tame. My Illusionary Swordsman deals 5.5k minimum per attack, if I instantly switch to Great Sword my Berserker deals an additional 5.5k damage. Thats 11,000 damage instantly.

It gets even more interesting if I drop a Time Warp…

9k dmg from 2 illusinary sword attacks…

2 crit’s against a low defence target them.

Malakree.5912:

Mesmers are a pretty solid hard counter to thieves.

As far as I can tell mesmer are a hard counter to everything. They have great survivability and great damage, no matter what class/build I use they are one of the toughest classes to play against, even more so if played well. In fact I have found the best anti-mesmer build is a glass canon- you have to kill them before they get their illusions out, something tanky builds can’t do.

Another thing, mesmer “pets” seem much better than other “pets”. They fire skills off relatively quickly, their ranged skills are quick (pistol shots) they do a lot of damage and can be pumped out relatively quickly. I have never felt threatened by a ranger pet or necro pet.

Lewis Burnell.2493:

Lewk.8359:

9k dmg from 2 illusinary sword attacks…

That’s relatively tame. My Illusionary Swordsman deals 5.5k minimum per attack, if I instantly switch to Great Sword my Berserker deals an additional 5.5k damage. Thats 11,000 damage instantly.

It gets even more interesting if I drop a Time Warp…

I’d love to see what you’re building to do a 5.5k minimum. A full phantasm built Swordsman in sPvP and I’m not hitting those numbers as a maximum.

Yasha.5963:

As far as I can tell mesmer are a hard counter to everything. They have great survivability and great damage, no matter what class/build I use they are one of the toughest classes to play against, even more so if played well. In fact I have found the best anti-mesmer build is a glass canon- you have to kill them before they get their illusions out, something tanky builds can’t do.

Another thing, mesmer “pets” seem much better than other “pets”. They fire skills off relatively quickly, their ranged skills are quick (pistol shots) they do a lot of damage and can be pumped out relatively quickly. I have never felt threatened by a ranger pet or necro pet.

Smoke and mirrors.

Glass Cannon is actually weak against mesmers unless you catch one off Guard. Tanky, Ranged, Condition damage are all effective.

Keep in mind that these pets you also look down upon compared to Mesmer Illusions also stick onto the real mesmer like glue.

You’ll find that most mesmers are a great deal weaker than they seem once you’ve got an idea on how they play. Right now most the issue is players are just intimidated and don’t how how to keep a clear head against them.

As far as I can tell mesmer are a hard counter to everything. They have great survivability and great damage, no matter what class/build I use they are one of the toughest classes to play against, even more so if played well. In fact I have found the best anti-mesmer build is a glass canon- you have to kill them before they get their illusions out, something tanky builds can’t do.
Another thing, mesmer “pets” seem much better than other “pets”. They fire skills off relatively quickly, their ranged skills are quick (pistol shots) they do a lot of damage and can be pumped out relatively quickly. I have never felt threatened by a ranger pet or necro pet.

The only strong mesmer builds hit that sweet spot between reasonably damage and reasonable survivability which most other profs haven’t at the moment. Against a true glass cannon you can outlast them and against a true bunker spec you can slowly whittle them away (though it takes ages). I’ve been challenged several times by pretty much every prof other than mesmer or ele and each time they also seem to be running that kind of build.

Kalar Meadia.8439:

Yasha.5963:

As far as I can tell mesmer are a hard counter to everything. They have great survivability and great damage, no matter what class/build I use they are one of the toughest classes to play against, even more so if played well. In fact I have found the best anti-mesmer build is a glass canon- you have to kill them before they get their illusions out, something tanky builds can’t do.

Another thing, mesmer “pets” seem much better than other “pets”. They fire skills off relatively quickly, their ranged skills are quick (pistol shots) they do a lot of damage and can be pumped out relatively quickly. I have never felt threatened by a ranger pet or necro pet.

Smoke and mirrors.

Glass Cannon is actually weak against mesmers unless you catch one off Guard. Tanky, Ranged, Condition damage are all effective.

Keep in mind that these pets you also look down upon compared to Mesmer Illusions also stick onto the real mesmer like glue.

You’ll find that most mesmers are a great deal weaker than they seem once you’ve got an idea on how they play. Right now most the issue is players are just intimidated and don’t how how to keep a clear head against them.

As I just posted in another thread, ranger pets do not “stick like glue” you have to actively tell them to attack the mesmer and they drop target on stealth. I have been playing a tank condition build and its great- I can beat guardians, withstand and turn the table on thieves, warriors etc, all the classes troublesome to a glass cannon. But against any half decent mesmer its a no go.

You can’t kite them because of how their pets work, you run out of dodges because there are so many pets and player attacking you, and despite being tricky to target with numerous get aways they can deal a truck load of damage.

I’ve got to the point where I can see which is the real mesmer without having to call target, and I’ve also of course played one. I’m still hopeful of finding a build that works against them. I’m not convinced that they are “OP”, although every spvp I’ll be cursing the kitten mesmer as I res in the graveyard.

All I can say is they are the hardest class to play against on every class that I’ve played. I mean you come across builds and players of any class that just blow you away, but with mesmer its like all the talented people must be playing one because they nearly all blow you away.

Kalar Meadia.8439:

Right now most the issue is players are just intimidated and don’t how how to keep a clear head against them.

Clearly. And elementalists, they suck because they just arent intimidating enough. All those water spells give the enemy a clear, calm mind. Thus elems are much easier to beat.

Necro and Elem intimidation needs to be brought up to par. Fire elemental needs to be a dragon. Necro wells should have dead babies crawling out of them. Now we have balance.

Lewis Burnell.2493:

Lewk.8359:

9k dmg from 2 illusinary sword attacks…

That’s relatively tame. My Illusionary Swordsman deals 5.5k minimum per attack, if I instantly switch to Great Sword my Berserker deals an additional 5.5k damage. Thats 11,000 damage instantly.

It gets even more interesting if I drop a Time Warp…

Which takes like 4-5sec to perform if you count casting times etc.

Condi Evasion builds and Repeatable Stealth builds tend to work pretty well, if it’s versus a glass cannon Mesmer anyway. Haste doesn’t work too well, since Mesmers have a lot of anti-burst mechanics. The Shortbow in the standard Pistol Whip or Heartseeker builds is also extremely good at one or two shotting all the Phantasms with Trick Shot and Cluster Bomb. I assume you are also taking the Shortbow in the P/P setup as well? That would be the key.

As for the complaints about Phantasm damage, people seem to be on the high side of the numbers and always think that Phantasms crit. I was doing some averages on the light golem, and Duelist/Berserker/Swordsman all do around 3.1k per attack cycle, the Swordsman a little bit higher on average. Phantasms are probably one of the easiest attacks in the game to dodge anyway, seeing as you can see the Phantasm pop up. I hardly ever get hit when I’m on my Engi – and the bombs/grenades tend to kill the Phantasms beyond their first miss.

In general though, the best solution to countering a glass cannon Phantasm Mesmer is AoE damage and some tankiness built in preferably with Vigor and Protection.

Yasha.5963:

As I just posted in another thread, ranger pets do not “stick like glue” you have to actively tell them to attack the mesmer and they drop target on stealth. I have been playing a tank condition build and its great- I can beat guardians, withstand and turn the table on thieves, warriors etc, all the classes troublesome to a glass cannon. But against any half decent mesmer its a no go.

Then you’re doing something wrong. Rangers have the easiest time against Mesmers next to a decently played Necro.

You can’t kite them because of how their pets work, you run out of dodges because there are so many pets and player attacking you, and despite being tricky to target with numerous get aways they can deal a truck load of damage.

I’ve got to the point where I can see which is the real mesmer without having to call target, and I’ve also of course played one. I’m still hopeful of finding a build that works against them. I’m not convinced that they are “OP”, although every spvp I’ll be cursing the kitten mesmer as I res in the graveyard.

Against mesmers, the best defense is a good offense. Don’t try to kite, kill their illusions. As a Ranger you’ve some of the safest ways of doing so. First of which is to watch your terrain and gain a vantage point. iZerker, iDulist are the only ones you really have to watch out for if you have the high ground.

And don’t be afraid to blanket on some AoE’s to weaken and destroy illusions, even if I’m cloaked you’ll probably hit/cripple me before I can get away and that stealth only lasts so long.

All I can say is they are the hardest class to play against on every class that I’ve played. I mean you come across builds and players of any class that just blow you away, but with mesmer its like all the talented people must be playing one because they nearly all blow you away.

Playing Mesmer first, and going to other classes (Elementalist, Necro, Engineer) I actually don’t have many problems against mesmers, knowing how they work and how they fight. Mesmers aren’t as easy to tell where the danger is coming from right away, as each Mesmer can build differently. That’s probably the biggest problem I have. Once I know the set up they’re using, they’re not hard at all.

I have more problems going after a mesmer when other classes are pounding down on me, than with the mesmer themselves. There really needs to be a few “This is how you kill mesmers.” videos made. Mesmers do have some pretty hefty universal weaknesses.

“Clearly. And elementalists, they suck because they just arent intimidating enough. All those water spells give the enemy a clear, calm mind. Thus elems are much easier to beat.
Necro and Elem intimidation needs to be brought up to par. Fire elemental needs to be a dragon. Necro wells should have dead babies crawling out of them. Now we have balance.”

lmao. Obviously all eles need to learn how to play and all mesmers are just amazing. Nothing at all to do with balance >.>

how can thief say anything about dmg? last time i noticed i got 16000 dmg from thiefs single Pistol Whip and am i talking about thief having too much dmg? no… so please, be quite…

Kalar Meadia.8439:

Keep in mind that these pets you also look down upon compared to Mesmer Illusions also stick onto the real mesmer like glue.

Seriously, you have no clue what you talk about. Necro pets do NOT stay on the mesmer. Thieves’ vanish abilities make them bogus and unresponsive, too.
It gets even worse (if that is possible) when a Mesmer drops his clones and phantasms and then vanishes. Then you can be 100% certain that the pets lose their target (the mesmer) and attack the clones.

But hey, why bother? You have an I-Win button versus necros with pets anyway. Yes, just 1 button press is enough: transform him into a Moa and all pets are gone and the CDs are 30sec-2min

Brilliant balancing!

Regardless of that the necro pets have even trouble to attack anything at all /chuckle

Asmodean.5820:

Kalar Meadia.8439:

Keep in mind that these pets you also look down upon compared to Mesmer Illusions also stick onto the real mesmer like glue.

Seriously, you have no clue what you talk about. Necro pets do NOT stay on the mesmer. Thieves’ vanish abilities make them bogus and unresponsive, too.
It gets even worse (if that is possible) when a Mesmer drops his clones and phantasms and then vanishes. Then you can be 100% certain that the pets lose their target (the mesmer) and attack the clones.

But hey, why bother? You have an I-Win button versus necros with pets anyway. Yes, just 1 button press is enough: transform him into a Moa and all pets are gone and the CDs are 30sec-2min

Brilliant balancing!

Regardless of that the necro pets have even trouble to attack anything at all /chuckle

Moa is a 2 second cast time ability with a very distinctive animation. Dodge it or rupt it. It’s not that hard. Moa is lame but very counterable unless you’re in a zerg or something.

edit: More on topic, the problem isn’t so much the damage it’s the spikyness because the attack time is so high. IIRC phantasms hit once every 4-5 seconds. They should hit once every second instead for 20% of the damage.

The current system both overly frontloads the damage and misleads people into thinking they’re taking much higher DPS than they actually are.

Yukishiro.8792:

Asmodean.5820:

Kalar Meadia.8439:

Keep in mind that these pets you also look down upon compared to Mesmer Illusions also stick onto the real mesmer like glue.

Seriously, you have no clue what you talk about. Necro pets do NOT stay on the mesmer. Thieves’ vanish abilities make them bogus and unresponsive, too.
It gets even worse (if that is possible) when a Mesmer drops his clones and phantasms and then vanishes. Then you can be 100% certain that the pets lose their target (the mesmer) and attack the clones.

But hey, why bother? You have an I-Win button versus necros with pets anyway. Yes, just 1 button press is enough: transform him into a Moa and all pets are gone and the CDs are 30sec-2min

Brilliant balancing!

Regardless of that the necro pets have even trouble to attack anything at all /chuckle

Moa is a 2 second cast time ability with a very distinctive animation. Dodge it or rupt it. It’s not that hard. Moa is lame but very counterable unless you’re in a zerg or something.

edit: More on topic, the problem isn’t so much the damage it’s the spikyness because the attack time is so high. IIRC phantasms hit once every 4-5 seconds. They should hit once every second instead for 20% of the damage.

The current system both overly frontloads the damage and misleads people into thinking they’re taking much higher DPS than they actually are.

Yeah the cd on pistol phantasm is awful, and I agree it causes a lot of hate without people actually understanding the cast times, I see them stood for what seems like an eternity without firing a shot. And to the OP as there is not healers in this game you have to stack vitt and toughness as dead dps is no DPS and once they have dropped you fast they will call targeting you constantly as they know you will drop fast as you have no hp pool or toughness. So it’s better to sacrifice raw dips for more survivability every day of the week.

The damage isn’t the worst it’s the fact they get survivability + burst + mobility all in one build! They need to nerf two areas or make it so they can’t have all in one build.

In my experience most thief builds use a toughness amulet and run with 1500~ or so. At least the good builds do, anyway.

How about rather than complaining, you post your build here and we’ll critique it. Then maybe you’ll stop having as many problems with Mesmers.

pyrokarat.5280:

But seriously… just kill the phantasms. If they pose such a serious threat, surely 3-4 auto attacks are worth it.

Yeh simply kill the phantasms while the mesmer crit shots you and makes you do damage to yourself while not taking any damange at all, by the time their dead you may have 20% health left, good plan, or just attack the real mesmer and let his phantasms crit shot you while you are forced to do damange to yourself.

You know the POINT of having no holy trinity is to not have this kind of imbalanced crap. Mesmers basically hold point better than guardians and do more crit damage than a thief. This is not a counter class your screwed against this class game, some classes are just broken so badly it seems that way.