Guild Wars 2

Kwll.1468:

As I said in the grand scheme if things they are really not a problem. But again in a 1 versus 1 situation Minion necros are another low skill piece of trash spec. The game doesn’t need builds like this regardless. Its literally for face-roll troglodytes regardless of whether its medicore in team fights or not. Let me fill up the screen with pet spam and run around like a moron and hopefully the ai and bad targetting system this game has will work its magic. For that to even work in 1 situation out of 10 is stupid and bad design imo. Super low level skill builds that have any kind of effectiveness need to be culled from the game as long as the reward for for playing high skill level builds is so bad as it is currently. There is no balance.

I’ve played MM for a long time, that’s a bit misguided, MM is actually harder to play WELL than you think. That said, yes its also easier to do OKAY with since AI can do some of the work. Few points to keep in mind though:

- AI can be stupid, a lot of the skill for ai damage when stuff is moving around freakishly fast is being able to control your opponent to keep your minions alive and allow them to have uptime. (This is obviously harder versus some classes more than others)

- AoE wrecks them and you can only remedy that by well timed CCs.

- MM have maybe 1 long CD cc break (that requires sacrificing one of the better minions they have.)

- I’ve tested it, minions with a full bar of minions do about the same damage as a power necro MM specced with a dagger, so an MM necro running around like a Phant Mesmer is doing about half the damage they could be doing.

- If the healing minion and flesh golem are down, Necros are in hot water because the lack of healing from then on out, and a huge damage reduction.

- Targeting isn’t an excuse anymore, with no target, tab once you will have the necromancer, not a single pet.

So, that said, since its “bad” it team play I consider it a high skill floor, but a pretty high skill ceiling. Its easy to annoy people with it, but to make it work at its potential, its more interactive (micro managing/controlling the enemy) than most burst builds centered around spamming a few hard hitting buttons, you can take that to the bank. AI =/= simple, because you have to remember, placement is very hard to handle when it comes to AI running around.

Last note; ANet needs to really create a new option to turn off “AI” names in sPvP. Half the time people complain and show pictures they have enemy pc names turned on and it does look ridiculous. They could change that themselves, but ANet just needs to make it a default setting because people don’t take the time to do it themselves.

I think MM might be more viable if they did something like the elite, blind, and immob minion, while using better utilities that help the team more. Well of Darkness is a relatively safe stomp utility, Spectral Walk to get between points faster, and Consume Conditions > heal minion 100% of the time.

In the same vein, if you have the elite, Sun Spirit and Stone Spirit, the Ranger could bring the Sharpening Stone utility and put out more pressure with Condis and bring Settler’s to be much tankier than the Carrion build that is a lot more susceptible to burst.

Going all AI is kinda stupid imo

jmatb.6307:

I think MM might be more viable if they did something like the elite, blind, and immob minion, while using better utilities that help the team more. Well of Darkness is a relatively safe stomp utility, Spectral Walk to get between points faster, and Consume Conditions > heal minion 100% of the time.

In the same vein, if you have the elite, Sun Spirit and Stone Spirit, the Ranger could bring the Sharpening Stone utility and put out more pressure with Condis and bring Settler’s to be much tankier than the Carrion build that is a lot more susceptible to burst.

Going all AI is kinda stupid imo

Instead of flesh wurm for a long time I ran Well of Power to aoe remove condies, worked pretty well especially since condies are a weakness of MMs, but since they fixed siphoning for MM, the added dps from them and the wurm seems to be the best for home point bunking. Kill the competition before it kills you sort of thing.

Spirit Ranger complaining about MM Necro?

MM Necro is not as viable as spirit ranger, nevertheless it’s just a totally annoying build that needs a nerf-to-death. Builds with AI should get removed from PvP completly, without any sort of compromise in my oppinion.

Spirit, MM and Stun warriors is all the same ez mode passive faceroll builds that needs to be nerfed

It would be nice if they gave us a “Click Only” option for NPC targeting in sPvP. That way, “C,” “T,” and “tab” targeting would only select players.

That could work with something like Axe/Dagger, Dagger/Focus where you can immob stack, strip boons, pass condis, and put weakness on people while doing good sustained DPS with the mainhands.

strong in 1v1 doesn´t mean it´s op
in a tournament environment your minions die to aoe and 1v1 is a different story when you have to fight on point

a t s e.9614:

Spirit, MM and Stun warriors is all the same ez mode passive faceroll builds that needs to be nerfed

Someone didn’t read what I said >_>:

No one is going to believe you, because they are baddies. As long as ANet doesn’t listen to people who obviously have no idea what they are talking about (I hope), I could care less if people think MMs are OP and need nerfing.

tested a necro to kill me with only his minions, it took 21 seconds to beat me with 2000+ dps what more if he used his dagger. that build is just OP to the highest level.

i’m aware that they can get killed in a team fight quickly but you still cannot deny the fact they can faceroll any build out there 1v1. if a spirit ranger gets pawned by MM, just imagine what it can do to ele’s, theives and mesmers.

Valentin, don’t take it personal, but maybe you’re just bad? I have to admit that MMs totally suck though, they can stand there and have to do nothing while their enemies (or at least me) have to put in quite a lot of effort to bring them down.

Nevertheless, saying as a spirit ranger that MM is OP… sorry man, but that’s really hilarious. Because almost everyone thinks the same about spirit rangers. Staying there and… well I hope you get the point.

1v1 is only a small part of a match though. If you’re trying to 1v1 something that is inherently good at it then it’s your fault not Anet’s.

What’s funny is the few times I see MM’s they literally sit on a point all match and don’t even rotate. I can leave them alone and kill their teammates all match because it’s a 4v5 while they play with themselves on their point.

yeah, i’m bad because i can beat guardians and warriors 1v1 (the tankiest professions in this game). lol

there’s even someone who posted here that his friend has never been defeated 1v1 playing as a minion necro.

it’s not only me who has the same predicament.

Valentin.2073:

yeah, i’m bad because i can beat guardians and warriors 1v1 (the tankiest professions in this game). lol

there’s even someone who posted here that his friend has never been defeated 1v1 playing as a minion necro.

it’s not only me who has the same predicament.

wow you beat guardians and warriors 1v1? Jesus christ bestest ranger universe

dude last time i checked you were like 15 wins 30 defeats on solo queue. and yeah, leaderboards dont count much, but it still tell us something about your average skill. if you only win 25 % of your games you are doing something wrong…

Well, one thing I saw you do a lot is stand still and you use LB+SB, if you stand there and let them eat you, that’s your own fault, to be fair. (When actually playing) strafing and dodgerolling from them can give you quite a bit of time where they’re not hitting you. If you stand still and expect to survive, that’s not really an issue with the build, its a pressure build, if you stand still and let a thief go to town on you you’re going to die just as fast if not faster. As I’ve said it has a high skill floor, but also a high skill ceiling having to manage the pets, and the enemy so the pets can be effective, and keeping them alive. If they suddenly were bad at 1v1 too, the design would be worse than the niche they have. they’re already bad 1v1 vs aoe builds, bad in team fights, take the small amount of builds they can wreck 1v1 and you have yourself a magical 100% useless build. Making builds useless isn’t a better design plan if you ask me. Learn how to fight them at the best potential.

soloque has nothing to offer. how can you win if you always get 4v5 and also with afk’ers?

Valentin.2073:

tested a necro to kill me with only his minions, it took 21 seconds to beat me with 2000+ dps what more if he used his dagger. that build is just OP to the highest level.

i’m aware that they can get killed in a team fight quickly but you still cannot deny the fact they can faceroll any build out there 1v1. if a spirit ranger gets pawned by MM, just imagine what it can do to ele’s, theives and mesmers.

There appears to be a general misunderstanding of MM’s and their skill cap. From my experience, there are two skill caps with the (general) MM build. First off, I’ll discuss the low skill level build.

Low Skill MM
This is typically the inexperienced MM, whom relies heavily upon his minions to do the work for them. They tend to not dodge much, and primarily focus on managing themselves and hope the minions do most of the work. This particular MM will be successful against players who are themselves inexperienced, or not very high skill level. It is this level which most people tend to insult MM’s, as it is this type of skill level that people typically understand. However, if a player has any decent skill, they can win these matches by kiting/killing the minions, and destroying the MM. I’ve done this numerous times as a Mesmer, Guardian, and Engineer.

High Skill MM
These type of MM’s are indeed lethal, but require a high level of micro management of minions and skills to be effective against skilled opponents. A good MM will know when to blow up the bone minions to deal high damage, and possibly getting blast finishers. They will also know how to use the bone fiend to immobilize their target, and when to effectively use their Flesh Golem to charge.

If a MM mismanages their minions, then they waste their potential. For instance, minions don’t always path correctly, so blowing up your bone minion could be wasted, resulting in no damage dealt and no extra minion to pressure your opponent. On the other hand, if timed correctly, sacrificing the minion deals excellent damage, and can be used as part of a burst.

Personal Thoughts
I feel the MM does reward a player with high risk/reward. Low skilled players do see some advantages against similar players, but will get crushed in the higher end arenas. High skill players, on the other hand, must know when to utilize their minions to CC and burst other skilled opponents. A simple mistiming could lead to a wasted skill, which would only leave more of an opening for a MM’s opponent.

I have played against some great builds of every class, and these have always resulted in near wins/losses and coming down to who executed their skill at which point in the fight. This suggests to me that either every class has access to OP builds, or the players running these builds are skilled.

Tactics Against MMs
One of the biggest weaknesses for Necromancers are CC’s. Stuns in particular are effective, but so are other forms of CC’s (such as knock back). Whatever you do, don’t stand around so the minions hit you. If you have to, kite the MM and use long range weapons. If you choose to melee, get close, burst some damage, then kite again to keep outside of the minions range (thieves do this excellently). Another tactic is to use massive aoe damage, as this will kill off the minions and give you easier access to the necro.

@Valentin: As you are a ranger, you have access to the Elite Entangle (if you choose). Which will lock down a necro and their minions, allowing you to go to town on them.

Final Thoughts
For anyone that may be curious, I’ve been playing as an MM for five months now for pvp, and am sitting at rank 53 on the Solo Leader boards. For some, this won’t mean anything, and that is fine. Honestly, I’ve been surprised that I’ve done so well, as I play in my spare time for fun.

Here is a thought to take home. If at first you don’t succeed against a build, try a different tactic. If that tactic doesn’t work, try a different one. In the end, your opponent may be more skilled, or you may need to adjust your build as it isn’t an “S” tier one. Otherwise, you may need to accept a certain build type will beat yours (I’m looking at you stun warrior).

ronpierce.2760:

Well, one thing I saw you do a lot is stand still and you use LB+SB, if you stand there and let them eat you, that’s your own fault, to be fair. (When actually playing) strafing and dodgerolling from them can give you quite a bit of time where they’re not hitting you. If you stand still and expect to survive, that’s not really an issue with the build, its a pressure build, if you stand still and let a thief go to town on you you’re going to die just as fast if not faster. As I’ve said it has a high skill floor, but also a high skill ceiling having to manage the pets, and the enemy so the pets can be effective, and keeping them alive. If they suddenly were bad at 1v1 too, the design would be worse than the niche they have. they’re already bad 1v1 vs aoe builds, bad in team fights, take the small amount of builds they can wreck 1v1 and you have yourself a magical 100% useless build. Making builds useless isn’t a better design plan if you ask me. Learn how to fight them at the best potential.

how can i move if you got your minions immobilizing me all the time? you say your playing a hard spec is just amazing. you’re right, your build sucks in a team fight but that doesnt change the fact that it’s too strong for 1v1.

anyone who says your build is weak 1v1 is arrogant or lying.

there must be a reason why you are all defending this build. lol

i say necros need to be nerfed to the ground not just the MM build. it makes the whole GW2 game experience frustrating and unenjoyable.

l2p. Nothing else to say. Sorry man.

dash.1952:

High Skill MM
These type of MM’s are indeed lethal, but require a high level of micro management of minions and skills to be effective against skilled opponents. A good MM will know when to blow up the bone minions to deal high damage, and possibly getting blast finishers. They will also know how to use the bone fiend to immobilize their target, and when to effectively use their Flesh Golem to charge.

If a MM mismanages their minions, then they waste their potential. For instance, minions don’t always path correctly, so blowing up your bone minion could be wasted, resulting in no damage dealt and no extra minion to pressure your opponent. On the other hand, if timed correctly, sacrificing the minion deals excellent damage, and can be used as part of a burst.

Tactics Against MMs
One of the biggest weaknesses for Necromancers are CC’s. Stuns in particular are effective, but so are other forms of CC’s (such as knock back). Whatever you do, don’t stand around so the minions hit you. If you have to, kite the MM and use long range weapons. If you choose to melee, get close, burst some damage, then kite again to keep outside of the minions range (thieves do this excellently). Another tactic is to use massive aoe damage, as this will kill off the minions and give you easier access to the necro.

I am disappointed that you didn’t list Necromancer’s greatest utilities, Doom. Doom is a great way to keep enemies off of you. Even if you don’t have a stun-break you always have doom. Doom is on a 20 second cooldown, instant and it is a stun-defense. Whenever I get stunned, I fear the player about to burst me. Doom is your offensive block skill but it also versatile in CC as well.

If I faced a thief like that, usually I would place Staff 3 + 4 marks on where I am. When it triggers, I immediately go into deathshroud and have my deathshroud take the damage. Staff 3+4 marks weakens the damage. Even if I miss my DS, I will still take mediocre damage from thieves. After staff 3+4 is gone, I’ll use Staff 5 or 2 afterwards.

Other ways is to use Dagger/warhorn set. IMO, it is the best weapon set for MM. Warhorn gives daze + Cripple aura + swiftness. If a warrior catches up to me, he’ll be crippled and I will be faster away from the warrior. Then my minions will attack the warrior from behind. Dagger is great for self-heal + immobilize. Dagger auto-attack is best because it is not as clunky as other weapon sets. You can maneuver around as you stab enemies at the side and back.

The greatest counter to Necromancer is AoE damage. The time that my Minions die in masses is when I fought a guardian who used Whirling Wrath and some other huge burst AoE damage skills to destroy all my minions at the same time. Moa Morph is another counter that destroys minions without trying.

Valentin.2073:

there must be a reason why you are all defending this build. lol

i say necros need to be nerfed to the ground not just the MM build. it makes the whole GW2 game experience frustrating and unenjoyable.

We defend it because we play in high-tier and no one wants a build to be undeservingly nerfed because low-tier has issues with it. Its one of the few builds (in high end, not low) that requires thought/skill to play well that isn’t “evade evade burst buttons” or “stun stun stun burst”. Like I’ve said, having less AI doesn’t make builds more thoughtful, most of them come down to 2-3 abilities that just hit really kitten hard or CC very effectively, or are spam all your moves to win builds, this isn’t more skillful, there’s just less targets to deal with. MM requires not only personal positioning, but watching minions closely so you’re not blowing up your bone minions when they’re not around anything, or watching when your blood minion or flesh wurm are low HP to use their death-effects and not letting their death be non-beneficial. I can promise you having to watch these things actually DOES take more skill than pressing a few buttons in sequence for many of the other “best builds” out there, people just have a nasty grudge against AI, but don’t realize that nothing in this game is particularly hard. The biggest problem is that players get OVERWHELMED easily, and that’s why people lose and/or get frustrated. If their combo is no longer effective because they have to watch for something else, they assume its broken and over powered. Micro management is harder than anything else in this game, hands down. Pressing buttons and dodging isn’t hard, some builds are just more effective than others, that’s all there is to it.

i’m tired explaining my point. i give up.

necros are completely BALANCED. no other profession is as balanced as they are.

I used to run a minion necro in structured, they get trashed by any class that is heavy aoe, or characters that are smart enough to drop the pets first. The reason a pet necro is hard to kill is because most players focus on the necro. The necro is using the pets (when spec’d properly) to lifesteal, meaning they’re not going to go down as long as their pets are active. Trash the pets you have a really weak, and underpowered class. I’m running a plague/well necro, and i laugh anymore when I run up against a pet necro. Free stomps.

Valentin.2073:

i’m tired explaining my point. i give up.

necros are completely BALANCED. no other profession is as balanced as they are.

dude you just refuse to listen to everything people say to you.
people arent saying necro is balanced, they’re saying minionmancer works for 1v1’s and thats it. And it’s true. They are also saying that you complaining about how necromancer is an AI faceroller is stupid, because you play spirit ranger which is another AI faceroller relying on passive procs from the spirits, which is also true!
But in your own little mind, spirit ranger is a rightfully skillfull spec and you are a good player.
Have you considered that maybe the reason you struggle so much is, and pardon my french, you suck? And that maybe the only reason you thought you were a good player is because you are playing a braindead spec, that even the most mentally challenged minds of our society could play, a spec that allows you to kill people with half the effort they would have to make to kill you?

For all i care you are right, minionmancer should be nerfed to the ground, and so should spirit ranger. They are both on the same sac when it comes to facerolling and easymodeness.

ahuba.6430:

dude you just refuse to listen to everything people say to you.
people arent saying necro is balanced, they’re saying minionmancer works for 1v1’s and thats it. And it’s true.

I guess when you minionmaster, you mean that MM that afk and lets minions do all the work works for 1v1.

I disagree with that.

Staff gives huge AoE, great for team battles. Flesh Golem is aoe knockdowns, great for team battles. Bone Minions are AoE bombers, great for team battles. Doom is a instant fear, great for team battles. Life Transfer, Great for team battles. Minions itself is great for soaking up AoE that the enemy would place on a player, Great for team battles. Shadow Fiend blinds, great for team stomping.

ahuba.6430:

Valentin.2073:

i’m tired explaining my point. i give up.

necros are completely BALANCED. no other profession is as balanced as they are.

dude you just refuse to listen to everything people say to you.
people arent saying necro is balanced, they’re saying minionmancer works for 1v1’s and thats it. And it’s true. They are also saying that you complaining about how necromancer is an AI faceroller is stupid, because you play spirit ranger which is another AI faceroller relying on passive procs from the spirits, which is also true!
But in your own little mind, spirit ranger is a rightfully skillfull spec and you are a good player.
Have you considered that maybe the reason you struggle so much is, and pardon my french, you suck? And that maybe the only reason you thought you were a good player is because you are playing a braindead spec, that even the most mentally challenged minds of our society could play, a spec that allows you to kill people with half the effort they would have to make to kill you?

For all i care you are right, minionmancer should be nerfed to the ground, and so should spirit ranger. They are both on the same sac when it comes to facerolling and easymodeness.

spirits do not auto attack. how can you say they are OP? they just serve as signets to add condition to a ranger’s attack.

maybe, the spirit res can be annoying for other people but that’s about it. i don’t see why you got this huge hatred towards spirit ranger.

Valentin.2073:

ahuba.6430:

Valentin.2073:

i’m tired explaining my point. i give up.

necros are completely BALANCED. no other profession is as balanced as they are.

dude you just refuse to listen to everything people say to you.
people arent saying necro is balanced, they’re saying minionmancer works for 1v1’s and thats it. And it’s true. They are also saying that you complaining about how necromancer is an AI faceroller is stupid, because you play spirit ranger which is another AI faceroller relying on passive procs from the spirits, which is also true!
But in your own little mind, spirit ranger is a rightfully skillfull spec and you are a good player.
Have you considered that maybe the reason you struggle so much is, and pardon my french, you suck? And that maybe the only reason you thought you were a good player is because you are playing a braindead spec, that even the most mentally challenged minds of our society could play, a spec that allows you to kill people with half the effort they would have to make to kill you?

For all i care you are right, minionmancer should be nerfed to the ground, and so should spirit ranger. They are both on the same sac when it comes to facerolling and easymodeness.

spirits do not auto attack. how can you say they are OP? they just serve as signets to add condition to a ranger’s attack.

maybe, the spirit res can be annoying for other people but that’s about it. i don’t see why you got this huge hatred towards spirit ranger.

thats it. i give up. someone else maybe.

let’s compare ranger’s elite to a necro’s elite. res spirit CD is 180 seconds. flesh golem CD is 60 seconds.

if the mod’s cannot increase the necro’s elite CD then at least bring down the spirit res to 120-140 sec. fair enough.

Valentin.2073:

let’s compare ranger’s elite to a necro’s elite. res spirit CD is 180 seconds. flesh golem CD is 60 seconds.

if the mod’s cannot increase the necro’s elite CD then at least bring down the spirit res to 120-140 sec. fair enough.

you are unreal……

Nope you have to actually look at the screen at your target for them at least. AI builds can just autoattack lol

i once left my spirit ranger on home point with shortbow auto attack on and went to take and 10 minute dump, when i got back i had a tournament win chest

I will admit this is what I did when I tried it and beat someone 1v1

+100 to dash for someone actually understanding that any decently successful MM actually requires really good microing of the minions.

I can beat just about any MM necro with my permachill necro…though It can be frustrating once u’ve locked onto him, then accidentally hit tab or swap targets to have to cycle thru or just mouse click him to re-target by then. But I only see MM necro being OP in WvW roaming, if the minions retain their Pve health buff there

this thread is precious. lol

I can roll any build you can think of as a ranger. This is the only class i played since I started playing GW2.

Spirit build must be the easiest build but it’s definitely not OP. I like having warriors and necros on my team. they bring more to the table and it’s really fun facerolling people that use weakling builds.

If you’re not bringing enough support to your team why run the same build and get owned over and over. Pretty easy, right?

There you go anet this is what happens when new players come in while your game is in this state. The new generation is getting off on the right foot!

PS: What if I’m running MM NECRO?! HAHAHA

GW2 is a really fun game. I even abandoned my ps3 just to focus on this game.

I still don’t get why people complain about their class being weak when they can just play a stronger one instead.

GW2 is the best pvp-oriented MMORPG ever. I’m sure the dev’s are doing their best to make this game more fun. I even see more people playing pvp. PVP is not dead, it’s changing constantly and you need to learn how to adapt to enjoy it.

The ONLY thing a spirit ranger SHOULD lose to is an asura warrior. Everything else you lose to (generally) just means you have more to learn. Also, as a spirit ranger you have no right to complain about anything.

Eurantien.4632:

The ONLY thing a spirit ranger SHOULD lose to is an asura warrior. Everything else you lose to (generally) just means you have more to learn. Also, as a spirit ranger you have no right to complain about anything.

http://youtu.be/7avJMkkRlPA

Kenny being an altoholic, duels a spirits at ~ 5:40

MM necro is a sensible counter to spirits as they can stack bleeds quickly, and spirits only run passive cleansing (In the same way condi warrior will counter).

Deku…. isn’t the best 1 v 1 spirit ranger (his build is very team fight oriented). I’ve never had a problem with MM necros.

ahuba.6430:

rofl spirit ranger complaining that minion necros get carried by AI. what goes around comes around bro…

I had a good laugh too when I read he was a Spirit Ranger.

Both builds virtually just win by standing there and auto-attacking.

OP is quite right though exaggerating.

MM necros are extremely powerful.

I don’t get why did they receive all these pets , I mean srsly ?

The problem is the AI doing the the job for the players. Necros, rangers, mesmers and in some point engeniers abuse the AI in some point. That should be nerfed so people actualy do some PvP in PvP.

i like playing a ranger because the moas are so cute. i’m sure a lot of people share the same fondness with animals.

Having an animal companion IG is the bestest thing ever. I just wish the spirits look more animal-like than plants.

silentnight warrior.2714:

The problem is the AI doing the the job for the players. Necros, rangers, mesmers and in some point engeniers abuse the AI in some point. That should be nerfed so people actualy do some PvP in PvP.

AIs are just conditions or buffs with a visual representation. Other classes have buffs and automatic damages that you don’t see. Those are still an “AI”.

silentnight warrior.2714:

The problem is the AI doing the the job for the players. Necros, rangers, mesmers and in some point engeniers abuse the AI in some point. That should be nerfed so people actualy do some PvP in PvP.

So we can play builds that take real skill, like regen warriors!