I don’t think you’ve fully thought this out Kuro. You were suggesting 600 range before
Dropping the range of the two is basically going to put S/P and S/D in a constant nuke range. S/P having a wind up evade self root evade skill with our base stats and armor not encouraging that. Without the inherit stealth option as a counter measure to range fire, a ranger’s pretty much just going to keep pressing 1 on you, even the options for LoS get significantly reduced dropping SR’s range.
Prior to the april update the same held true for S/D. Flanking stab always followed flanking strike so the tell for damage was incredibly clear which meant timing was crucial (but at the time you were rewarded fairly poorly for landing that stab relative to the ease of avoiding it).
If I get shot whatever but the clearest change is to keep the new tracking and fuse the 3 back into a single skill instead of a chain.
With Shadow return being locked down while CC’d you you make it quite easy to punish main hand sword. In fact Rune’s of Nightmare which go through evade is going to set you up to get spiked to hell and back. Which would be fine if the options for stability became something more than dagger storm, but I don’t think that will happen.
I don’t know man, I’m just throwing out ideas as to how I think the problems with S/D thieves could be resolved. And sword #2 is one of the biggest problems. I can care less for FS + LS because you can still kill through that but sword #2’s spammable engage at 0-600r and disengage at 1200r is probably mainly responsible for the complaints about how no one can kill a s/d thief. When the 8+ dodges can’t save you, you always have the 1200r disengage…
Or they could just make it so that you can ONLY use sword #2 at 600r with a target so that if you do use it and disengage, you still can, but at least you won’t be popping sword 2 first from way outside the point, go in to the point and pop return whenever something goes wrong.
Shadow return not working while cc’d could honestly be a reasonable change…you still have a million dodges to work with during the fight. I’m sure we’ve all fought enough s/d thieves to realize that their dodges are just as important to sword #2 when it comes to the inability to kill them. We’re trying to just handicap 1 of those ways. I personally thought the patch which made sword #2 “not” a stunbreak is absolutely silly…it IS pretty much a stunbreak anytime you can teleport back at 1200r. No one is going to be catch you at that range before the cc is up unless they teleport to you.
Now I’m not going to lie, shadowstep pathing is still kittenty since they last tried to fix it, so sword #2 isn’t 100% safe, but it’s very much a 90% successful guaranteed disengage especially if the terrain isn’t rugged and leveled.
But you’re starting with the assertion that S/D thieves are “a problem”. Your very first sentence says
“I don’t know man, I’m just throwing out ideas as to how I think the problems with S/D thieves could be resolved”. I disagree that S/D thieves are a “problem”. All the forum support in the world that you can drum up isn’t going to convince me otherwise, because I’ve been playing S/D long enough to know that while the spec is strong, it isn’t broken.
They have a playstyle that people don’t like. Tough kitten, they’ll get used to it. I don’t like dealing with a mesmer’s constant escapes, but I’m not going to come crying to the boards and claim its OP and whine for nerfs just because I don’t like it
I’m not going to defend my points any further and stray this thread away to a pointless argument.
Again, if you feel that it’s just a matter of L2P when literally EVERYONE is saying that s/d thieves are OP right now INCLUDING thieves, then I don’t know what to say.
Did you feel the same vs triple cantrip bunker eles pre-nerf? Just tough kitten , get used to it?
How about the current state of necros? I guess it’s just a l2p issue too and we should just get used to the playstyle?
A problem is a problem, and I’m not going to sit back on it just because I play the class.
Literally everyone is a hyperbolic statement. I disagree, and I am a part of Literally everyone. There are also a ton of people who disagree – you just don’t count their opinions, because they diverge from yours.
Your comparison to triple cantrip bunkers is also asinine and an attempt to grasp at straws – the two aren’t comparable. When a thief can use S/D to generate nigh permanent regen/protection uptime and bunker a point, we can discuss it. Since that is not now, and has never been the case, you’ll need a more poignant argument.
If you’re a thief and haven’t
pre-ordered HOT at this point,
save yourself the money and don’t bother.
As a thief, tell you that Withdraw is not a stun break. D/P has access to stealth on demand as its defensive mechanic, not even mention Black Powder. What does S/D thief have? Evasion, and on demand escaping when something when wrong. S/D dps is lower than D/P. Also, it is not like sword 2 does not cost initiatives. It is 5 for total an attack and return. The counter can position him/herself close to the Return circle to take advantage of his/her cc. On the other hand, the S/D thief doesn’t need additional buff in return, but should be toned down in accessing to vigor. It is not like we take away all the evade from the thief, but limit in some ways so that, at least, other play can land some attacks. It also make the S/D thief utilize his/her dodges better instead of just spamming them.
Right – my point is, a LOT of s/d thieves spam dodges just for giggles, and SHOULD be punished for it. In my opinion it just dumbs down the game play. I know GW2 isn’t the most complex game to play, but I respect people who really do try to time their dodges and watch the actions of the other guy. Being able to chain spam 8+ consecutive dodges just seems silly to me. In my opinion, stealth does not compare because you CAN die through stealth, you can’t die through dodges and evades.
They ARE punished for it. A thief putting 30 points in Acro, and slotting SoA and Energy Sigil is making CHOICES – that’s a utility slot, 30 points of a 70 point spec, and weapon sigil slot All dedicated to dodging. All those choices dedicated to dodging subtract something from the thief, whether it be Burst potential, DPS in general, or team utility.
If they dodge 8 times in a row just “for giggles”, they are not effectively playing their spec – the spec that they sacrificed so much else to run. What don’t you get about that? How can you possibly not get that after playing a thief for 3500 matches?
You just missed the entire point as to why people say s/d thieves are a problem right now. If they are simply just trolls with dodges and offer nothing else, then we wouldn’t be having this conversation right now.
You claim that they are punished for it when you can still put out good DPS to everything with 10/30/0/30/0 or 0/30/0/30/10? There is a reason why people are afraid of fighting s/d thieves and not really d/p thieves. S/D may not have the initial 9k backstab burst, but it has INSANELY good sustain…mind you the initial burst isn’t bad already especially if you run mug. But, with the new FS/LS tracking, you are literally stuck to the other person. I’d say it tracks just as well, if not better than heartseekers.
Also, being able to dodge 8+ times in a roll while disengaging across the map, then coming back with almost full CDs does not mean that they are getting punished. Signet of agility (which gives you 3 dodges + condi clear/s) is on a 24s CD and withdraw is on 15. By the time you use them in conjunction to dodges to disengage and come back, they would already pretty much be recharged.
I think somehow you are in the delusion that people are complaining about S/D thieves strictly because of the dodges…while I brought up dodges as ONE of the problems, it is certainly not the only problem.
As a thief, tell you that Withdraw is not a stun break. D/P has access to stealth on demand as its defensive mechanic, not even mention Black Powder. What does S/D thief have? Evasion, and on demand escaping when something when wrong. S/D dps is lower than D/P. Also, it is not like sword 2 does not cost initiatives. It is 5 for total an attack and return. The counter can position him/herself close to the Return circle to take advantage of his/her cc. On the other hand, the S/D thief doesn’t need additional buff in return, but should be toned down in accessing to vigor. It is not like we take away all the evade from the thief, but limit in some ways so that, at least, other play can land some attacks. It also make the S/D thief utilize his/her dodges better instead of just spamming them.
Right – my point is, a LOT of s/d thieves spam dodges just for giggles, and SHOULD be punished for it. In my opinion it just dumbs down the game play. I know GW2 isn’t the most complex game to play, but I respect people who really do try to time their dodges and watch the actions of the other guy. Being able to chain spam 8+ consecutive dodges just seems silly to me. In my opinion, stealth does not compare because you CAN die through stealth, you can’t die through dodges and evades.
They ARE punished for it. A thief putting 30 points in Acro, and slotting SoA and Energy Sigil is making CHOICES – that’s a utility slot, 30 points of a 70 point spec, and weapon sigil slot All dedicated to dodging. All those choices dedicated to dodging subtract something from the thief, whether it be Burst potential, DPS in general, or team utility.
If they dodge 8 times in a row just “for giggles”, they are not effectively playing their spec – the spec that they sacrificed so much else to run. What don’t you get about that? How can you possibly not get that after playing a thief for 3500 matches?
You just missed the entire point as to why people say s/d thieves are a problem right now. If they are simply just trolls with dodges and offer nothing else, then we wouldn’t be having this conversation right now.
You claim that they are punished for it when you can still put out good DPS to everything with 10/30/0/30/0 or 0/30/0/30/10? There is a reason why people are afraid of fighting s/d thieves and not really d/p thieves. S/D may not have the initial 9k backstab burst, but it has INSANELY good sustain…mind you the initial burst isn’t bad already especially if you run mug. But, with the new FS/LS tracking, you are literally stuck to the other person. I’d say it tracks just as well, if not better than heartseekers.
Also, being able to dodge 8+ times in a roll while disengaging across the map, then coming back with almost full CDs does not mean that they are getting punished. Signet of agility (which gives you 3 dodges + condi clear/s) is on a 24s CD and withdraw is on 15. By the time you use them in conjunction to dodges to disengage and come back, they would already pretty much be recharged.
I think somehow you are in the delusion that people are complaining about S/D thieves strictly because of the dodges…while I brought up dodges as ONE of the problems, it is certainly not the only problem.
The only way to put out good DPS with 10/30/0/30/0 or 0/30/0/30/10 is to be a complete glass cannon – they can be dealt with in the same manner as any glass cannon, even with Sword 2. Even then, their DPS pales in comparison to a glass cannon running D/P – like i said, SACRIFICES. People are afraid of S/D because they’re too lazy to learn to counter it – Sword 2 doesn’t even have a stunbreaker anymore…close to the circle, and guess what – you just neutralized Sword 2! Their burst is still inferior to D/P (since they’re probably running Mug too). Only FS tracks – including LS in that is silly…because you know, it doesn’t track, like, at all. FS tracks now because prior to the change, FS was tracking inferiorly to similar ranger skills – it obvious that’s the way FS was supposed to track, it just wasn’t.
S/D isn’t special in disengaging, thief has always been great at escaping – SBow can do it without burning 8 dodges and a utility, and stealth can do it just as well, if not better. Crying that S/D is overpowered at disengaging when it’s part of the core class design is either disingenuous or ignorant.
If you’re a thief and haven’t
pre-ordered HOT at this point,
save yourself the money and don’t bother.
LOOOOOL!!! a Guardian trying to nerf Necros, this is hilarious!!! and extremely biased ofc.
Dhuumfire: if something is done to this trait, it should be moved to master or even adept tier. The reason is quite simple, we would have a 30 points trait worse than a 10 point trait in engis. This should never ever happen. It’d only claim bad design! bad design!