Guild Wars 2

Heartseeker is not nearly as bad as you crybabies want to make it out to be. Maybe a bit too strong (and I do mean a bit.) The thing is, the thief WILL run out of initiative in a few seconds and be useless, while you wont. Thieves are the ONLY class with a resource in this game.

HS spam is useless playing against someone with a clue. Once you get high rank, believe me, you don’t see them AT ALL unless you are playing PuG pvp, and there is a reason for that.

Looking at the bigger picture.

Thief has actually most of the gimmicky specs out there.
1) HS spam
2) Pistol Whipe
On top of that they have the best mobility in game and stealth. So while i agree they are squishy as hell, a good player on Thief wont die so easily and will most likely at least escape to regen and in few second is ready for next try while you probably allready do not have defenzive cooldowns.

What is really bad is that in HS example, Thiefs are able to spam it all the way. HS HS stealth HS HS stealth.

Also important is to check other classes ability to defend. While Mesmers / Guardians / Engineers still have nice posibility to defend themselfs – there are classes that have little no chance or they simply have long defensive cooldowns.

Thief in current state is unfortunatelly important as he is the BEST roaming / burst / 1v1 class. For really fast use and easy to play compared to others.

But hey.. this is new MMO… all the new MMO have their stealth class broken on start. I havent seen one where its a different story.. Rogues / Assassins / Thieves are always OP at start of new MMO

nukularpower.2106:

Heartseeker is not nearly as bad as you crybabies want to make it out to be. Maybe a bit too strong (and I do mean a bit.) The thing is, the thief WILL run out of initiative in a few seconds and be useless, while you wont. Thieves are the ONLY class with a resource in this game.

HS spam is useless playing against someone with a clue. Once you get high rank, believe me, you don’t see them AT ALL unless you are playing PuG pvp, and there is a reason for that.

Then he pops thieves guild and laughs as they finish you off.

Yea, it is over the top.

Sure feels like WoW forums in here.

My personal opinion: MESMER is Over the Top

Ultimately each class has its pros and cons. The player behind the class is what counts. Maybe, just maybe, that one thief or that one mesmer is just better than you

I play 2 toons a Thief and a Elementalist and personally I think a thief is far harder to play. It took me 4 days to get my Ele to 40 it took me far longer to get my thief to 40. Your by far the squishiest toon in the game, to do enough damage to make your toon effective you need to sacrifice health and toughness. When you go invisible and your targeted by a range toon you still get hit. If a Mesmer has one of its split personalities on you (for lack of a better term) your going to keep getting hit. Now if your seen coming you are going to be spammed by every AoE other players can throw at you. and HS really is not that powerful its only good against other Squishy toons. Any toon with high armor I hit for max 1500 with weapon damage at 3250 and about 3000 at 1/3 health, when it hits, about 1 out of 5 times it misses. I read someone here on this forum state that they saw someone hit for 24k in 4 hits please tell me how they did it because I have never do that much damage. I think I might of hit for 6k once since I’ve played PvP. I play alot of the random PvP with the PvP browser at level 80 with the free PvP gear. I do FAR better damage as an Elementalist than I do as a thief. All this whining is pathetic I bet if you took a look at the average times per PvP match the different classes die you’ll see that the thief is number one class that is killed on average per match. I bet if they did statistics on deaths/kill ratio you would see a this is one of the lowest on the food chain. If you nerf Heartseeker you’ll ruin the class, but that said I would gladly see HS be removed if I could get a boost in condition damage and another bleed skill.

Thom.1862:

I play 2 toons a Thief and a Elementalist and personally I think a thief is far harder to play. It took me 4 days to get my Ele to 40 it took me far longer to get my thief to 40. Your by far the squishiest toon in the game, to do enough damage to make your toon effective you need to sacrifice health and toughness. When you go invisible and your targeted by a range toon you still get hit. If a Mesmer has one of its split personalities on you (for lack of a better term) your going to keep getting hit. Now if your seen coming you are going to be spammed by every AoE other players can throw at you. and HS really is not that powerful its only good against other Squishy toons. Any toon with high armor I hit for max 1500 with weapon damage at 3250 and about 3000 at 1/3 health, when it hits, about 1 out of 5 times it misses. I read someone here on this forum state that they saw someone hit for 24k in 4 hits please tell me how they did it because I have never do that much damage. I think I might of hit for 6k once since I’ve played PvP. I play alot of the random PvP with the PvP browser at level 80 with the free PvP gear. I do FAR better damage as an Elementalist than I do as a thief. All this whining is pathetic I bet if you took a look at the average times per PvP match the different classes die you’ll see that the thief is number one class that is killed on average per match. I bet if they did statistics on deaths/kill ratio you would see a this is one of the lowest on the food chain. If you nerf Heartseeker you’ll ruin the class, but that said I would gladly see HS be removed if I could get a boost in condition damage and another bleed skill.

There already exists a condition spec that has an amazing ability to single-handed-ly defeat a group of 3 or less mediocre players with ease. The ability to evade almost nearly any attack and continuously apply cripple to an opponent is by far the most aggravating thing for any class to go up against. This is called the Death Blossom Build.

Jim.1698:

Wreckz.4053:

All I have to say is this, I’m a Warrior and have little to no problems soloing thieves. They’re very squishy, and any CC on a thief, usually ends with them dying. The classes in GW2 are honestly pretty balanced for game launch. Just learn how to counter them, and GG.

Now impress me by playing an elementalist and still saying the same thing.

As someone with 100 Tournament wins on an Elementalist, I’m going to go ahead and say the same thing. The standard HS spam spec dies instantly to pressure, the Thief can either run (their strong point), or die. Initiative isn’t returned if you miss the ability, and the usual gambit of the HS spam Thief is to pop Haste and spam HS x3 (or 4 if they are specc’d properly).

If you have less than 2.5k Armor and stand still for it all, it will do a fair bit of damage; but of course, a single teleport/endurance bar/CC/etc will pretty much open them up for an easy counterkill. When Thieves use haste, they lose all endurance and its regeneration – so if they mess up their window of opportunity, they can die very easily.

People need to learn to use their dodges when needed, not just whenever. There are layers and layers of uses for each mechanic in the game, and blindly pressing your buttons will get you killed.

Having said that, I also have 70 Tournament wins on my Thief, and Heartseeker could stand to have its initiative cost increased by 1.

Greed.1702:

There already exists a condition spec that has an amazing ability to single-handed-ly defeat a group of 3 or less mediocre players with ease. The ability to evade almost nearly any attack and continuously apply cripple to an opponent is by far the most aggravating thing for any class to go up against. This is called the Death Blossom Build.

It’s actually called the FLYING UNICORN BACON BABY build, please address it as such.

Irascible.8210:

If you did tournaments you would see very quickly that Heartseeker spam builds are extremely weak. It burns all of their initiative so they have to invest EVERYTHING into spamming HS… Giving you ample time to get away / damage them / heal up / etc. If you’re getting downed by heartseeker spam, you’re doing it wrong… You need to time your dodges and always have your utilities and CC ready. Incredible how this forum is FILLED with completely illegitimate complaints about sPvP that basically sum up to, “You’re not playing well.”

If Heartseeker spam builds are ineffective in tournament sPvP, then you obviously have no problem with nerfs that make it equally ineffective in pick-up sPvP. Thanks for your vote of support.

Thedenofsin.7340:

Irascible.8210:

If you did tournaments you would see very quickly that Heartseeker spam builds are extremely weak. It burns all of their initiative so they have to invest EVERYTHING into spamming HS… Giving you ample time to get away / damage them / heal up / etc. If you’re getting downed by heartseeker spam, you’re doing it wrong… You need to time your dodges and always have your utilities and CC ready. Incredible how this forum is FILLED with completely illegitimate complaints about sPvP that basically sum up to, “You’re not playing well.”

If Heartseeker spam builds are ineffective in tournament sPvP, then you obviously have no problem with nerfs that make it equally ineffective in pick-up sPvP. Thanks for your vote of support.

“I can’t play against this class, remove it from the game please”.

I mained a Thief for a bit and have close to a 100 Tournaments with one. I never ran a HS build but ran a skillful mobility Sword/Dagger build instead. Anyways, I’ve of course tried HS build a couple times in Hot join to see how bad it is and wow. The THIEFS in here defending the skill, saying that once they are out of Initiative arekitten You seem to be forgetting any traits, utilities, pretty much everything that helps regain Initiative. There is quite a few traits that help with initiative regen and really allow you to spam HS to your Heart’s content. There is no defending the skill in its current form. The ones defending it are gonna be the Thiefs who don’t know what to do when it finally gets toned down to a reasonable place.

Any spamable skill is not good for good PvP! thats the rule i believe.
Its even worst if its bring you easy victory.

Thedenofsin.7340:

Heartseeker is a spammable execute combo finisher combined with a short range gap closer which increases in damage inversely to an opponent’s health.

Overall the PvP in this game eschews spammy ‘iwin’ mechanics, yet this ability stands out dramatically from the rest. I’ve had players spam it 5 times in a row, taking off upward of 50%+ of my hp bar. Given a player can only dodge 2, maybe 3 times maximum, it seems rather imbalanced to have it remain in-game as it stands.

Getting hit 5 times in a row by any direct high damage skill, no matter class will most likely bring you below 50% HP. Try combining a dodge with a blind, or root, stun or knock them back. Even though the skill lets you jump to opponent the range isn’t very far and if they try it again out of range they just wasted a lot of initiative. Also don’t just backpeddle, it’s very slow. If you see a one jumping you then try dodging then turn and run don’t just just slowly walk backwards. If it takes them 5 hits to get you to 50% HP that is plenty of time to counter it.

I have much bigger problems with warrior. They will charge me, stun me and do some kind of flurry and I’m dead before I can even react. 5 Hits with no CC shouldn’t be a problem.

i’m still fairly new to the game (pvp rank 8 ) and i’m playing a thief (because i like the abilities not cos im a cookie cutter fanboy!) and what i have noticed:

- pistol whip IS huge damage, plus the short stun and evasion is great BUT i’ve struggled to use it reliably unless i use immobilize/stun venoms. the 2 ability on sword is meant to immobilize but i think there is possibly a small gap when ppl can dodge and avoid the follow-up PW
people are saying you get 2-shot by PW or whatever… thats a bit extreme because the most i have crit a player with it is about 9k and that is glass cannon v. glass cannon. anyone who builds some toughness and a bit of hp will need AT LEAST 3 pistol whips, which is gonna take a bit longer due to initiative requirements, and in this time you can heal and blind etc.

- heartseeker spam is so lame, i have never played this spec cos its dull. definately should have its damage reduced considering the cheap cost

- death blossom spam is also lame for the same reason, but at least the jump isnt very big

- im having fun with a condition/power build with pistol/dagger combo so i can apply lots of bleeds with 1, vulnerability with 2 and venoms, a dodge on 3 and the nice bouncing dagger combo finisher on 4. using shortbow as well for kiting and killing mesmer clones

my only complaints about pvp atm:
- downed state is really really freaking annoying/lame imo. if i already beat someone i dont want them to still dmg and cc me or teleport about being a general nuisance. about 1/3rd of my deaths come from people i have already downed!

- guardians dont die in a reasonable amount of time with like 3 people on them. considering all sPvP is based on defending points that is too good. a friend plays a support guardian and if im with him we are both very hard to take down due to the combo fields that remove conditions, and the heals etc.

- i struggle to get the right mesmer, even when calling a target on them seeing as the just vanish and that removes it. i usually try to kill the clones first now but while you are doing this you are taking damage after all :\

tl;dr cookie cutter builds are lame, and downed state should bugger off

Thom.1862:

I play 2 toons a Thief and a Elementalist and personally I think a thief is far harder to play. It took me 4 days to get my Ele to 40 it took me far longer to get my thief to 40. Your by far the squishiest toon in the game, to do enough damage to make your toon effective you need to sacrifice health and toughness. When you go invisible and your targeted by a range toon you still get hit. If a Mesmer has one of its split personalities on you (for lack of a better term) your going to keep getting hit. Now if your seen coming you are going to be spammed by every AoE other players can throw at you. and HS really is not that powerful its only good against other Squishy toons. Any toon with high armor I hit for max 1500 with weapon damage at 3250 and about 3000 at 1/3 health, when it hits, about 1 out of 5 times it misses. I read someone here on this forum state that they saw someone hit for 24k in 4 hits please tell me how they did it because I have never do that much damage. I think I might of hit for 6k once since I’ve played PvP. I play alot of the random PvP with the PvP browser at level 80 with the free PvP gear. I do FAR better damage as an Elementalist than I do as a thief. All this whining is pathetic I bet if you took a look at the average times per PvP match the different classes die you’ll see that the thief is number one class that is killed on average per match. I bet if they did statistics on deaths/kill ratio you would see a this is one of the lowest on the food chain. If you nerf Heartseeker you’ll ruin the class, but that said I would gladly see HS be removed if I could get a boost in condition damage and another bleed skill.

How is leveling slower in PvE relevant to this Spvp discussion?

Also, you could try calling them clones, illusions, or phantasms. You can’t lack a better term when they have an official (in fact, multiple) term.

Random 8v8 pvp is not a good indicator of the balance in this game, and should never ever ever be looked at as such.

Stop calling them toons.

I think it should be pointed out for those theifs defending their class: Yes, you may burn all of your initiative on your first 5 heartseekers, but your other attacks still hit JUST AS HARD OR HARDER than most other classes auto attacks when combined with haste/poisons/thieves guild. took a little over 9k dmg from 2 heartseekers last night. There just is NO excuse that a class can put out that much dmg, that fast, for that little of setup/skill or penalty. You cant even KITE thief.

aydenunited.5729:

I haven’t found HB or HS to be OP or gamebreaking unless I just sit there and take it right in the face. And that makes it my fault.

If you open on backstab with infiltrator signet, auto-attack for 3 seconds into steal/mug/backstab and HS spam you’re going to eat around 25k worth of damage unless the thief build is bad.

I scored 8.5k (signeted) backstab the other night, followed with haste heartseeker spam. Im like real skilled thief! Granted it was on another glass cannon, but hey, he died before his client finished rendering my thief coming out of stealth.

hey dude, 1. move out of the way (evade) 2. daze 3. confuse 4. blind. 5. kill them 6. knockdown 7. block if you can 8. invuln, if you can. 9. blinds 10. invis

Do anything, but dont come on here complaining about heartseeker spam if your build doesnt have one of these 10 things.

Edit: retaliation also works, obviously

Playing a mesmer trying to stop a heartseeker thief:

Chaos Armor
Switch weapons
Magic bullet (%^$ that didn’t stun him, WHY)
Mantra of distraction (&^%&^% WHY DIDN’T THAT STUN HIM)
Mantra of Distraction (^%&^%& SUNNOVA WHY CAN’T I STUN HIM)
Magic bullet (WHY WON" STOP!!????)
Shatter Illusions (F3 which is supposed to stun them…but funny enough, it doesn’t…)
SIgnet of Domination (OMFG DUDE THAT WAS 6 stuns you totally offed…)
Die..

Rage quit.
Come to board to rant about thieves.

Wotan.2034:

Jim.1698:

Wreckz.4053:

All I have to say is this, I’m a Warrior and have little to no problems soloing thieves. They’re very squishy, and any CC on a thief, usually ends with them dying. The classes in GW2 are honestly pretty balanced for game launch. Just learn how to counter them, and GG.

Now impress me by playing an elementalist and still saying the same thing.

As someone with 100 Tournament wins on an Elementalist, I’m going to go ahead and say the same thing. The standard HS spam spec dies instantly to pressure, the Thief can either run (their strong point), or die. Initiative isn’t returned if you miss the ability, and the usual gambit of the HS spam Thief is to pop Haste and spam HS x3 (or 4 if they are specc’d properly).

If you have less than 2.5k Armor and stand still for it all, it will do a fair bit of damage; but of course, a single teleport/endurance bar/CC/etc will pretty much open them up for an easy counterkill. When Thieves use haste, they lose all endurance and its regeneration – so if they mess up their window of opportunity, they can die very easily.

People need to learn to use their dodges when needed, not just whenever. There are layers and layers of uses for each mechanic in the game, and blindly pressing your buttons will get you killed.

Having said that, I also have 70 Tournament wins on my Thief, and Heartseeker could stand to have its initiative cost increased by 1.

Greed.1702:

There already exists a condition spec that has an amazing ability to single-handed-ly defeat a group of 3 or less mediocre players with ease. The ability to evade almost nearly any attack and continuously apply cripple to an opponent is by far the most aggravating thing for any class to go up against. This is called the Death Blossom Build.

It’s actually called the FLYING UNICORN BACON BABY build, please address it as such.

I actually spam heart seeker 14 times in a row, why the kitten would I make a heart seeker spam build that can only spam 4 times?

Fenix.4795:

Wotan.2034:

Jim.1698:

Wreckz.4053:

All I have to say is this, I’m a Warrior and have little to no problems soloing thieves. They’re very squishy, and any CC on a thief, usually ends with them dying. The classes in GW2 are honestly pretty balanced for game launch. Just learn how to counter them, and GG.

Now impress me by playing an elementalist and still saying the same thing.

As someone with 100 Tournament wins on an Elementalist, I’m going to go ahead and say the same thing. The standard HS spam spec dies instantly to pressure, the Thief can either run (their strong point), or die. Initiative isn’t returned if you miss the ability, and the usual gambit of the HS spam Thief is to pop Haste and spam HS x3 (or 4 if they are specc’d properly).

If you have less than 2.5k Armor and stand still for it all, it will do a fair bit of damage; but of course, a single teleport/endurance bar/CC/etc will pretty much open them up for an easy counterkill. When Thieves use haste, they lose all endurance and its regeneration – so if they mess up their window of opportunity, they can die very easily.

People need to learn to use their dodges when needed, not just whenever. There are layers and layers of uses for each mechanic in the game, and blindly pressing your buttons will get you killed.

Having said that, I also have 70 Tournament wins on my Thief, and Heartseeker could stand to have its initiative cost increased by 1.

Greed.1702:

There already exists a condition spec that has an amazing ability to single-handed-ly defeat a group of 3 or less mediocre players with ease. The ability to evade almost nearly any attack and continuously apply cripple to an opponent is by far the most aggravating thing for any class to go up against. This is called the Death Blossom Build.

It’s actually called the FLYING UNICORN BACON BABY build, please address it as such.

I actually spam heart seeker 14 times in a row, why the kitten would I make a heart seeker spam build that can only spam 4 times?

No you don’t, Fenix. If you wait for regen, you can hit 5 before burning out your bar. If you use Roll for Initiative, you can hit 6 and 7 waiting a second for regen. If you use Quick Hands (which you really shouldn’t for a HS build) you can hit 7, 8 with regen. Besides, while you’re using your entire trait tree and initiative for crap damage on anything with Toughness, that thing you’re hitting is taking you from 100 to 0.

There is no combination of traits and skills that lets you hit HS 14 times in a row.

Wotan.2034:

Thedenofsin.7340:

Irascible.8210:

If you did tournaments you would see very quickly that Heartseeker spam builds are extremely weak. It burns all of their initiative so they have to invest EVERYTHING into spamming HS… Giving you ample time to get away / damage them / heal up / etc. If you’re getting downed by heartseeker spam, you’re doing it wrong… You need to time your dodges and always have your utilities and CC ready. Incredible how this forum is FILLED with completely illegitimate complaints about sPvP that basically sum up to, “You’re not playing well.”

If Heartseeker spam builds are ineffective in tournament sPvP, then you obviously have no problem with nerfs that make it equally ineffective in pick-up sPvP. Thanks for your vote of support.

“I can’t play against this class, remove it from the game please”.

I suppose Im ok with your recommendation, even if it is extreme. Again, thanks for your vote of support. Be cautious what you ask for, if they remove rogues there will be no more spammy iwin classes for you to play; you may just have to go back to Rift and pvp there.

Spyly.5749:

You think ’’Heartseeker’’ is over the top ? Try it on a Guardian and see the ’’results’’? Or even try it on the Mesmer’s multiple ilussions.

The game is fine and I believe it is much more balanced than it’s predecessor GW1.
People has to erase those ‘’ ready pvpwiki builds’’ that used just to overcome 1 or 2 situations.
You want to overcome someone, use different weapons, tactics, skills or even change a character. Just practice on it.

Both OP, Guardian and heartseeker.
unbalacend PvP, cant be called sPvP at the moment.
uPvP

I would like to know if Arenanet is going to balance the game or i just stop playing it… its frustrating, not fun at all..

take away heartseeker leap, give dancing daggers cripple buffed to 3-4 seconds.

now D/D has a decent cripple to close gaps

D/P have shadow shot to close gaps

Ecliptica.7509:

I would like to know if Arenanet is going to balance the game or i just stop playing it… its frustrating, not fun at all..

the game has been out hardly any time at all, you need to wait like 2 months for people to get settled in, seriously, the game should not be “rebalanced” within a couple weeks of release

I just want to see the gap closer nerfed or removed from it. After they first jump me and I successfully roll and start kiting out their quickness, they’re instantly on me again because of the broken gap closing capability of HSS.

Greed.1702:

Ultimately each class has its pros and cons. The player behind the class is what counts. Maybe, just maybe, that one thief or that one mesmer is just better than you

While to some extent this is true, and I agree with you… this is not necessarily the argument.

The problem is it is a mindless build that virtually anyone can pick up and learn. It can be a successful build for someone that barely knows the rest of their skills. 1v1 (as a necro), I beat thieves all the time. In fairness, this is mostly do to the sheer number of thieves in each game most of whom are bound to be morons.

The real argument (and I make it for 100b too) is should one class be so mindlessly easy and still good and strong. When I win a 1v1 fight against a thief, I feel as if I played at the top of my game while the thief dropped the ball somewhere.

The player does remain the most important part, but don’t equivocate. We already know that.

Ahlen.7591:

I just want to see the gap closer nerfed or removed from it. After they first jump me and I successfully roll and start kiting out their quickness, they’re instantly on me again because of the broken gap closing capability of HSS.

so you want to take away the mobility of the class thats supposed to be alla bout mobility? i could see lessen/take away the tracking nature of it, so it has to be lined up like pistolw hip does. but taking away the leap aspect would need some serious compensation in other areas.

I play a thief myself and I really understand why people find PW and HS overpowered, because with the right build it is, So I made myself an evasive build with only shortbows equiped and again people cry over it and cal l me a hacker. There is just no pleasing baddies -_-
youtube.com/darknessnamed

Wolfe.3097:

Ahlen.7591:

I just want to see the gap closer nerfed or removed from it. After they first jump me and I successfully roll and start kiting out their quickness, they’re instantly on me again because of the broken gap closing capability of HSS.

so you want to take away the mobility of the class thats supposed to be alla bout mobility? i could see lessen/take away the tracking nature of it, so it has to be lined up like pistolw hip does. but taking away the leap aspect would need some serious compensation in other areas.

No, you wouldn’t need any compensation. I don’t care how mobile you think you should be, no class should have a spammable damaging teleport.

Ahlen.7591:

No, you wouldn’t need any compensation. I don’t care how mobile you think you should be, no class should have a spammable damaging teleport that’s also a combo finisher and increases as your opponent’s health decreases.

Had to fix that for you. Really the only thing that Skillseeker is missing is that it doesn’t heal the rogue as it does damage.

I agree with Greed on this issue, HS isn’t your biggest concern it’s DB thieves. You’ll rage a thousand times harder at a DB thief than a HS spamming one.

Solution? Hammer warrior.

I tought GW2 pvp would be more strategic but at this moment only the hitlikeatruck builds works. Defensive style that a lot of people loves does not exist, and unbalances like hs or 100b, etc will do that pvp people (the pve is a bit bad in this game and wont change imo) will leave the game in less than 2 month.
If all continue in the same way this game will big fail. I’m playing all the betas since the first (failed) one, and i am a bit worried for the release version is a boring and repeating game.
Bye.

You know, i am ok with HB. If anyone has played a warrior, it is actually a pretty balanced skill. It hits very hard, but roots the warrior in place, and if you want to combo it with haste you will take 50% more dmg.

Now Heartseeker is just wrong. Finisher, only 3 initiative, LEAP TO TARGET, and bonus dmg the lower your target’s health gets. wrong wrong wrong.

Julia.3702:

I actually met a thief who did 25 k damage with 4x of heartseeker, lovely

No thoughness/vitality gear, maybee in WvW with full exotics + 3 orbs but not, under no circumstances in tPvP will this ever happen.

The nerf is in!

quit your whining you will kill pvp! you got killed? play better…! any class can kill any other class in this game, you just need brains