Guild Wars 2

evilapprentice.6379:

jportell.2197:

evilapprentice.6379:

GankSinatra.2653:

evilapprentice.6379:

jportell.2197:

Mug only depended on mug.

Except 3 posts prior to yours that I quoted, I pointed out exactly the kittening opposite. Mug only does “insane” damage if you’re running extremely high power and satisfy the conditionals on a number of DPS oriented traits.

If you can’t make your point without ommitting facts, hyperbole, or just outright lying, it’s probably not worth making.

Also, as a side note, mug is a trait.

You omitted the fact its a minor 5 point trait.

10 point major, since I actually know where abilities I profess to have knowledge about are located.
A)There’s no need to point out where mug is – If you don’t know where mug is on the traitline, what makes you qualified to come to the boards and kitten about it?
B)2 of the 3 traits Jportel claimed where necessary for Mind wrack to hit hard are…I bet you’re going to feel silly when I finish this sentence…10 points in.

Dude, you’re a thief basher all over the forums, you should be better at this.

But also compare backstab to mindwrack… that is the big difference. Thieves can still pull of gnarly burst without mug thanks to backstab. Also thieves can pull off their burst every 4 seconds mesmers need at least 10 seconds.

Let me clarify – I’m not trying to weigh in on Mug vs Mind Wrack – I don’t know Mes’s numbers well enough to express an opinion on the matter, and unlike most people on these boards, I’m not willing to call something OP/UP/etc unless I feel like I completely understand all the factors associated.

I was simply pointing out that “7-8k Mugs” don’t exist, and “4k mugs” were a product of extreme Min/Maxing combined with a number of conditional DPS traits One of which requires your target to be below 50% health. New players who don’t truly understand what’s going on are going to come to these boards to try to figure out why they’re getting pasted so hard – when they have trouble with thieves, and come to boards and see idiots crying about “7-8k mug crits pre-nerf”, confirmation bias kicks in and we have a whole new wave of idiots. I’m just trying to prevent that.

I referenced your post to point out what a misinformed/trolling poster Gank was – he’s all over the boards crying about anything thief related; my guess is his mother did not love him.

As far as your point, I was clarifying – claiming that mug “Only needs mug” to crit like a beast is disingenous/misinformed. Mug Only needs Mug to work (obviously), huge crits (In the 4k realm) with it come from being a min/maxed GC thief and satisfying a number of conditionals, one of which requires 30 points in the Crit/crit damage traitline AND your target to be below 50% health.

Well for mindwrack to do insane damage the Mesmer has to have a huge set up as well. I was never really in favor of the mug nerf even though it was a trait I never used. WAS it a little strong for a 10point line? Perhaps… is it now? Most definitely not. One Mesmer trait that may need moved up is “shattered concentration” It has the ability to rip several boons at once… however if they do that they should bring harmonious mantras down a tree because nobody and I mean nobody runs mantra heavy builds in pvp.
Also in general thieves that took mug also took all the other traits to make it hit like a truck… In reality steal does no damage to begin with so taking mug was a XXXXX% increase in steals damage… Also with my thief that has absolutely no traits in power lines I can still land 5k backstabs on the regular…5k damage every 4-5 seconds… Mesmers can simply not do that… If they are shatter based then their phantasms might hurt… If they are phantasm Mesmers then you have nothing to worry about from shatters…. And hybrid Mesmer builds can’t do both things amazingly well. Nerfing mind wrack will force mesmers into either bunker builds which still aren’t very effective when compared to d/d ele/bm ranger/guard bunkers… We can try running confusion builds but unless they up confusion damage in PvP it’s hard to keep sustain going with that. The point is thieves have very viable builds that have nothing to do with mug and even with the mug nerf the damage from a thief with the same traits pre nerf is better than a Mesmer mindwrack hands down.

muscarine.5136:

Like many high damage skills out there i believe that, balance wise, the numbers are actually fine, what needs to be looked at is the activation process.
With shatter, either by requiring the player to ground target the skill and have the clones shatter here, either by only removing the homing part, making the clones run to the last position of the player instead of following him, while still being able to shatter prematurely if triggered by the opponent.

Problem with that idea is, that shatter is a very large part of our damage. We don’t deal a lot of damage in between the shatters and as Jportell said: it takes us around 10 seconds to set up our burst.
Most mesmers are not melee all the time, and when we are using a ranged weapon, then our illusions are using a ranged weapon as well and will stay at their original position unless their target runs out of range.
Those illusions are used to shatter as well.
Now imagine how our shatter would work with your solution.

You see the clones start running towards you from ranged. You now have a lot of time to see in which direction they are moving and to avoid them you simply have to step away from their path.
It would be like shooting a rifle only to find that: The bullet is not going to move faster than its target and on top of that, the bullet is painfully visible to anyone as it is the same size as you.
Shatter mesmers do not have a lot of sustained damage. We rely on the burst to make up for the lack of that. If we are not allowed the burst either, then we pretty much won’t deal much damage at all.

Imagine the main source of your damage only being activated if your opponent stands still.
Sure, when we are using a sword we can leap to you and immobilize, but in all honesty that is not hard to avoid. You even have 2 chances at it. If you see a clone rushing towards you and you dodge, then you just avoided both the cripple and the immobilize. If the clone manage to finish its leap and cripple you, then you can still dodge as you won’t become immobilized by the clone itself but only when the mesmer makes the swap.

Your suggestion would force us to only shatter when in melee, we would always have to use the pistol as offhand in order to be able to stun you in place for the shatter, the majority of our ranged clones would become useless and therefore hurt our damage by a lot.

Reesha.7901:

Problem with that idea is, that shatter is a very large part of our damage. We don’t deal a lot of damage in between the shatters and as Jportell said: it takes us around 10 seconds to set up our burst.

Burst builds, by design, do not deal a lot of damage inbetween bursts. Yoou have the choice to stay in melee and deal more sustained damage, but since your burst is on such a low CD, you move away between bursts. You can also pick up a weapon like the Greatsword and deal more sustained damage from range, yet almost nobody opts for it, because they don’t have to.

Most mesmers are not melee all the time, and when we are using a ranged weapon, then our illusions are using a ranged weapon as well and will stay at their original position unless their target runs out of range.
Those illusions are used to shatter as well.
Now imagine how our shatter would work with your solution.

You are used to having all of your burst to hit. Most burst builds of other classes do not expect all of their burst to land all the time. If one or two of the illusions wouldn’t explode at your target, what’s the problem with that. Nobody keeps you from shattering before you have 3 illusions up either, but rarely anybody does. It’s mostly get three clones up and then do the full burst. That in itself shows there’s something wrong with how the burst is designed.

Right now shatter burst requires no decision making. You do not have to carefully plan on how many illusions you want to shatter, where they stand or whetehr your opponent is running away. The only way to actually counter the shatter is to dodge through the homing clones, whether you actually want to dodge into that spot or not (more often than not you will be in a very precarious spot after your dodge roll ends and totally out of position).

If you dodge away before they reach you, you just wasted a dodge roll basically, because they are still homing in on you afterwards.

Having your illusions shatter at the exact spot the player was when you activated the skill is a great solution. Certainly better than having 5-6 illusions on the battlefield chasing the target.

Alternatively, making it so that the mesmer could not create any clones, before the homing illusions have actually exploded, would bring some balance to this as well.

GankSinatra.2653:

evilapprentice.6379:

Dude, you’re a thief basher all over the forums, you should be better at this.

Because you totally didnt just prove you’re a hypocrit, omitting facts you clearly know full well, right

Yes troll, I’m somehow a hypocrite (it has an e – the forums have spellcheck, use them) for only mentioning that Mug is a trait, and not explicitly leading you to the exact position where Mug is located (you know, you can’t just look it up on any website that builds GW2 class specs), because it’s silly to assume that a player complaining about Mug’s power might know where in which traitline its located, and for how many points.

Gank – thieves exist. Get over it. Your intellectually inferior and frankly pathetic trolling won’t get you what you want. The thief boards have a dozen trolls more effective/subtle than you – please feel free to continue sucking on whatever class you currently employ until the far more intelligent trolls ruin the thief class; I certainly can’t stop you. All I can do is point out your flaws to the point where any average human being would be so embarrassed by their shortcomings as to stop posting and cry in a basement somewhere.

jportell.2197:

evilapprentice.6379:

jportell.2197:

evilapprentice.6379:

GankSinatra.2653:

evilapprentice.6379:

jportell.2197:

Mug only depended on mug.

Except 3 posts prior to yours that I quoted, I pointed out exactly the kittening opposite. Mug only does “insane” damage if you’re running extremely high power and satisfy the conditionals on a number of DPS oriented traits.

If you can’t make your point without ommitting facts, hyperbole, or just outright lying, it’s probably not worth making.

Also, as a side note, mug is a trait.

You omitted the fact its a minor 5 point trait.

10 point major, since I actually know where abilities I profess to have knowledge about are located.
A)There’s no need to point out where mug is – If you don’t know where mug is on the traitline, what makes you qualified to come to the boards and kitten about it?
B)2 of the 3 traits Jportel claimed where necessary for Mind wrack to hit hard are…I bet you’re going to feel silly when I finish this sentence…10 points in.

Dude, you’re a thief basher all over the forums, you should be better at this.

But also compare backstab to mindwrack… that is the big difference. Thieves can still pull of gnarly burst without mug thanks to backstab. Also thieves can pull off their burst every 4 seconds mesmers need at least 10 seconds.

Let me clarify – I’m not trying to weigh in on Mug vs Mind Wrack – I don’t know Mes’s numbers well enough to express an opinion on the matter, and unlike most people on these boards, I’m not willing to call something OP/UP/etc unless I feel like I completely understand all the factors associated.

I was simply pointing out that “7-8k Mugs” don’t exist, and “4k mugs” were a product of extreme Min/Maxing combined with a number of conditional DPS traits One of which requires your target to be below 50% health. New players who don’t truly understand what’s going on are going to come to these boards to try to figure out why they’re getting pasted so hard – when they have trouble with thieves, and come to boards and see idiots crying about “7-8k mug crits pre-nerf”, confirmation bias kicks in and we have a whole new wave of idiots. I’m just trying to prevent that.

I referenced your post to point out what a misinformed/trolling poster Gank was – he’s all over the boards crying about anything thief related; my guess is his mother did not love him.

As far as your point, I was clarifying – claiming that mug “Only needs mug” to crit like a beast is disingenous/misinformed. Mug Only needs Mug to work (obviously), huge crits (In the 4k realm) with it come from being a min/maxed GC thief and satisfying a number of conditionals, one of which requires 30 points in the Crit/crit damage traitline AND your target to be below 50% health.

Well for mindwrack to do insane damage the Mesmer has to have a huge set up as well. I was never really in favor of the mug nerf even though it was a trait I never used. WAS it a little strong for a 10point line? Perhaps… is it now? Most definitely not. One Mesmer trait that may need moved up is “shattered concentration” It has the ability to rip several boons at once… however if they do that they should bring harmonious mantras down a tree because nobody and I mean nobody runs mantra heavy builds in pvp.
Also in general thieves that took mug also took all the other traits to make it hit like a truck… In reality steal does no damage to begin with so taking mug was a XXXXX% increase in steals damage… Also with my thief that has absolutely no traits in power lines I can still land 5k backstabs on the regular…5k damage every 4-5 seconds… Mesmers can simply not do that… If they are shatter based then their phantasms might hurt… If they are phantasm Mesmers then you have nothing to worry about from shatters…. And hybrid Mesmer builds can’t do both things amazingly well. Nerfing mind wrack will force mesmers into either bunker builds which still aren’t very effective when compared to d/d ele/bm ranger/guard bunkers… We can try running confusion builds but unless they up confusion damage in PvP it’s hard to keep sustain going with that. The point is thieves have very viable builds that have nothing to do with mug and even with the mug nerf the damage from a thief with the same traits pre nerf is better than a Mesmer mindwrack hands down.

None of this has anything, at all, to do with my point.

My point was (and still is), don’t pretend that 8k Mug crits (pre-nerf) were possible, and don’t pretend that 4k mug crits (pre-nerf) were typical. 8k mug crits did not exist, and 4k mug crits were a result of a GC satisfying conditionals on multiple traits, all of them very deep in their trait lines.

This game is going to quickly turn into Barney and Friends with the amount of whining and requests for Anet to make a reduction to professions’ skills.

Only a baboon would take a Mind Wrack to the face. Mind Wrack alone does not create the desired amount of burst damage output.

The mesmer has to stun his foe, hit the foe with a different shatter (preferably diversion) to get the vulnerability stack, and then pop Mind Wrack on the foe.

Now apply that in real time and you now understand the Mind Wrack is certainly avoidable. Keep in mind that the Mesmer would have to be in melee range to get the best results.

That’s why i’m getting less and less inclined to play the game as the whining increases and the profession(s) I find the most enjoyable to play keep getting punished for no reason other than a lack of players not understanding how to play efficiently.

Med.6150:

Burst builds, by design, do not deal a lot of damage inbetween bursts. Yoou have the choice to stay in melee and deal more sustained damage.
You can also pick up a weapon like the Greatsword and deal more sustained damage from range, yet almost nobody opts for it, because they don’t have to.

True. A few mesmers do play with 2 sets of melee weapons, but as it is now we are not forced to only be a melee class and I am fairly sure most of us would prefer to keep it that way.
The greatsword has its strengths and its weaknesses. It is a good weapon for damage if you get to be standing from max range in particular and in general then yes, it deals more damage. I see a lot of mesmers running with the greatsword so I guess I have a different experience with that than you do.

Med.6150:

You are used to having all of your burst to hit. Most burst builds of other classes do not expect all of their burst to land all the time. If one or two of the illusions wouldn’t explode at your target, what’s the problem with that. Nobody keeps you from shattering before you have 3 illusions up either, but rarely anybody does. It’s mostly get three clones up and then do the full burst. That in itself shows there’s something wrong with how the burst is designed.

I can only answer for myself here, but I am not used to having all my burst land. Let me ask you this. How do you avoid other classes burst? By dodging? By blocking?
What is the difference? You can do the exact same against us.

When a thief opens on me, I use defensive cooldowns to survive. When a mesmer shatters on you then yes, you will have to do the same. Maybe I am misunderstanding what you wrote, but I fail to see why it is ok in one situation and not in the other?

We don’t expect to get the full shatter combo every time. Our clones are squishy little things. Odds are they won’t all remain alive. We do shatter with less illusions as well (and not just because sometimes they die).

The only way to actually counter the shatter is to dodge through the homing clones, whether you actually want to dodge into that spot or not (more often than not you will be in a very precarious spot after your dodge roll ends and totally out of position).

Yes, this I can understand is annoying. I do see how shatter where player was standing when shatter was activated would prevent that.
However, I still believe it would become way too easy to negate a shatter mesmers damage if implemented, because It would be too easy to simply spot the clones running.
Why even blow any defensive cooldowns on that, why waste a dodge roll? Or a block? It would be much easier to take a few steps away as you see the clones coming towards you and by doing so negate the entire burst.

I see the issue, I just don’t think this is the right solution.
One thing I do think would lower the frustration regarding mesmers and their shatters would be maybe adding some sort of animation (to the melee clones in particular) showing the opponent that they are set to detonate.
If you are running with melee clones chasing, it is pretty much impossible to know if they are set to detonate or not and therefore also hard to know when to dodge.
(maybe that’s just me thinking that ^^ – I am still learning.)

hmm. ill go on my mesmer and not use mindwrack or blurred frenzy and still kill you.. what will you want to nerf at that point?

at some point you will need to learn how to play

what class is whining about clones vs a glass cannon…… just use any aoe and clear the area. or like 1000 people said dodge into the clones not away. or just walk away from them and let them blow themselves up.

if blurred frenzy did not have invuln on it the mesmer would be dead before it ended in most situations.

vs a zerker mesmer they have nothing other then wrack/blurred frenzy.. learn those moves and you can stop whining and win instead. why bother comming here instead of practicing,, maybe get a freind who is a mesmer and ask him for a tip or hint..

dont just assume you are good enough to win and look for an excuse for why you didnt.

in pvp there are people i face that have no issue with dodging a shatter.. are they better then you or are they cheating?

XII.9401:

jportell.2197:

Parktou.4263:

Zerker mesmers do wreak havoc with their shatters, even tanky mesmers can wreck you if they spam it right, might wanna seriously think about putting a shared cd on all shatter abilities so they can’t just spam them and instawin. Put something like a 1 or 2 second cd on it so there’s atleast some interval before the next 3 clones shatter on you and then probably 2 more right after that for the 3rd shatter in a row that the mesmer standing on top of you spammin blurred frenzy is gonna send your way. They are counterable, but only really by the more tanky players who have just enough cc and damage to lock those mesmers down after blurred frenzy and burst them down. I’ve done it on my warrior before with hammer but even on my theif I have a lot of trouble with mesmers who spam their shatters for burst. The shared 2 sec cd would alleviate the current burst potetential of mesmers without ruining the class IMO. I’m sure you will all disagree with me though, so please feel free.

Mesmers have already had a GCD put on their shatters… Happened in January. And mesmers’ can’t spam blurred frenzy the only two classes that can truly “spam” as in attack consistently in quick succession are thieves and eles. Thieves because of the massive regen in initiative they can take. And eles because they have 20 different weapon skills. Engi’s can’t spam because they still take usually just one kit. And thief is one of the last classes that should have trouble with mesmers. one thing that hurts mesmers the most is blinds… If you blind a Mesmer consistently you keep them from summoning phantasms… Simple.

Nah engys take two kits, toolkit and nades usually or bombs depending on if they wanna combo when bunkering to get stealth etc.

And no..blurred frenzy is on a 10sec cooldown. 2 seconds of invulnerability to everything GW2 can throw at you? Immune to cc? Check! Immune to damage?Check! Dish out DPS while doing it?Check! Gotta love that weak kitten ability..maybe that is why they are gonna nerf it..hmm..

What else do mesmers have?

Oh yea..worst elites in the game: Moa morph..a cc you can never break out of. It basically disables all your class abilities..hmm interesting..
Group quickness..say whaaaat?
Group stealth?Yep

Tons of get out of jail cards even on weapons

A weapon ability that can grant mesmers swiftness, slows enemies and Can be activated further to pull enemies thus ccing/interrupting them? Check!

High dps from shatters

Stealthing though not a thief and not activated off a combo..

Summon a phantasm that takes half of the damage directed towards you? yep

Ability to bypass downed abilities through distortion on command and guaranteeing a stomp

Downed ability that completely bypasses initial attempt to stomp while doing high dps while downed

Ability to avoid damage by using distortion on command

Can rip off boons off of a GROUP of people instantly

Basically they have the best abilities from every class except they have superior versions. Example: boon removal: not a single target like necros but a group. And the problem is they don’t have one..two..three of the best abilities in the game..they have tons of them.

Mesmers are easy mode and a nice way to know if you are a skilled player or a one that is being carried by your class is to roll a warrior and see how you fare against a player who can utilize the mesmer/thief broken class mechanics.

Also, I don’t think anyone sympathizes with mesmers who say they can’t use all those abilities at the same time. Boo hoo I’m sure..but you get to pick the best ones while other classes don’t have access to your 2nd best ones.

Please don’t insult the intelligence of players by saying mesmers are fine, are not OP and other people need to work around their OP mechanics. Everyone who plays this game knows they are OP with the exception of people who play mesmers who are either in denial or lying.

evilapprentice.6379:

None of this has anything, at all, to do with my point.

My point was (and still is), don’t pretend that 8k Mug crits (pre-nerf) were possible, and don’t pretend that 4k mug crits (pre-nerf) were typical. 8k mug crits did not exist, and 4k mug crits were a result of a GC satisfying conditionals on multiple traits, all of them very deep in their trait lines.

8k mugs maybe not. I don’t think I ever said they hit 8k if I did my bad. Also for a Mesmer to get good burst he must have a very specific build at least 30 into one line and 20 into another. However we only have one trait that increases mindwrack damage over all… by 20% which really isn’t all that much considering that mug is an very high percentage increase since it went from a skill that does no damage to does well over 2k+ damage. Also thieves can repeat their burst every 4 seconds. If you fight a target that doesn’t go down to your first mug+cnd+backstab. Wait 4s (I think it should be 3 still) restealth. And do it again.
Also honestly thieves would do better if they didn’t take mug at all.. And they tried building a more balanced build. If they do that and still take zerker amulet+power runes they are still very tough to kill and can stack might to almost 25 full time depending on the runes… Currently if you build the 25/30/0/0/15 with all zerker amulet and runes… Any bunker will laugh at you and dance on your corpse. They aren’t meant to be bursted.. But you can still wear on them.

Now as for the op argument of nerfing mindwrack like mug. Once again mesmers suffered massive nerfs in this last patch for PvP and WvW as well as several others before that. Mindwrack is garbage damage to begin with and to pull it off you need to do at least 3 separate skills before that plus a different shatter. so that is 6 illusions and two shatters. The thief combo went Steal+CnD+Backstab rinse CnD+backstab til target died… The only thing that changed was mugs damage. Was it over the top maybe did it wreck the thief class no. I didn’t even start pvp on my thief til after the nerf. Right now mesmers are general stuck in the shatter build…

Instant warp to enemy that does damage and sets up nicely for a backstab is a lot harder to avoid than a shatter combo.

If players can learn to avoid thieves they can learn to avoid mesmers.

If you are letting a full shatter land you are doing it wrong, about as wrong as letting HS spam work and back stab.

Why was theif nerfed compared to mes?

INSTANT WARP + BURT IS A HARD ATTACK TO AVOID IN FAVOR OF THE USER! WITH LITTLE TO NO REPEREVE FOR THE ONES FIGHTNG IT

“But mes can do that too!” Would be a valid argument if, swap wasn’t buggy as hell, wasn’t much easier to see coming (since it follows up from a clone leap), didn’t require utilities to pull off, and didn’t only do great damage unless the previous shatter on a 30+ second c/d landed.

Dunno why any theif is complaing to what’s a mesmer has, they can just short bow run away and restart the fight if they things don’t go their way lol, I only see mes do that if they have a port down previously.

FYI in sPvP the % chance to crit can be terribly unlucky very often. That’s 3-4 with it’s individual chance to crit. They can only make it better running things like eagles and then lose out on other goodies.

But this is all a non factor, what it really comes down to is if you can’t avoid a shatter your bad and should start practicing. At least new players saw the clones run at them and explode, and can try to learn.

Shatter soft counters guards, but a good guardian can out play a mes any day by learning.

/thread

jportell.2197:

evilapprentice.6379:

None of this has anything, at all, to do with my point.

My point was (and still is), don’t pretend that 8k Mug crits (pre-nerf) were possible, and don’t pretend that 4k mug crits (pre-nerf) were typical. 8k mug crits did not exist, and 4k mug crits were a result of a GC satisfying conditionals on multiple traits, all of them very deep in their trait lines.

8k mugs maybe not. I don’t think I ever said they hit 8k if I did my bad. Also for a Mesmer to get good burst he must have a very specific build at least 30 into one line and 20 into another. However we only have one trait that increases mindwrack damage over all… by 20% which really isn’t all that much considering that mug is an very high percentage increase since it went from a skill that does no damage to does well over 2k+ damage. Also thieves can repeat their burst every 4 seconds. If you fight a target that doesn’t go down to your first mug+cnd+backstab. Wait 4s (I think it should be 3 still) restealth. And do it again.
Also honestly thieves would do better if they didn’t take mug at all.. And they tried building a more balanced build. If they do that and still take zerker amulet+power runes they are still very tough to kill and can stack might to almost 25 full time depending on the runes… Currently if you build the 25/30/0/0/15 with all zerker amulet and runes… Any bunker will laugh at you and dance on your corpse. They aren’t meant to be bursted.. But you can still wear on them.

Now as for the op argument of nerfing mindwrack like mug. Once again mesmers suffered massive nerfs in this last patch for PvP and WvW as well as several others before that. Mindwrack is garbage damage to begin with and to pull it off you need to do at least 3 separate skills before that plus a different shatter. so that is 6 illusions and two shatters. The thief combo went Steal+CnD+Backstab rinse CnD+backstab til target died… The only thing that changed was mugs damage. Was it over the top maybe did it wreck the thief class no. I didn’t even start pvp on my thief til after the nerf. Right now mesmers are general stuck in the shatter build…

You never claimed Mug was critting for 8k – your name simply got pulled in to the discussion via exaggerators.

Your synopsis of thieves “being better if they didn’t take mug at all and instead built more defensively” is again an issue of either inexperience with thief, or trolling. Thieves more than any other class in the game gain the least by speccing defensively. We have no access to stability or protection as boons, have no way to gain invuln/direct damage immunity, have no block, and have poor (when compared to other classes) access to regen. Thieves, more than any other class, gain the least by sacrificing DPS stats for survivability stats. Even the dev’s agree, which is why they’ve stated (in a SotG) that they’re looking to allow thieves to spend more points defensively without impacting their burst (since their vision of thieves still has them being the highest burst and the best mobility).

Okay lets say they do this, name me one skill that has half decent aoe damage on mez. iZerker and mind wrack are our only ones, izerker is RIP for months and if they do anything at all to mind wrack with what are we gonna kill, chaos storm? come da kitten on now…

Med.6150:

muscarine.5136:

On glassy targets in a very short time frame :
C&D+Mug+Air sigil : potentially ~3200 + 3500 + 3500
(BS+Mug+Air sigil, HS+Mug+Air sigil, etc)

These numbers…where are people pulling these from. You have never been able to hit for 3.5k from an air sigil (you might confuse this with the air rune proc, who knows). Air sigil is gonna hit for 2k on a glass cannon.

C&D has been doing 66% of the damage that Steal (Mug) used to ever since they nerfed C&D by 33%.

So in reality the numbers above would look like this assuming Steal would do 3.5k (and yes I know you could get much higher an I welcome any burst reduction to this game): 2.35k (C&D) + 3.5k Steal (using this as a baseline for the combo) + 1.75k Lightning Strike.

I’m sorry, what ? 1.7k air sigil proc ? Sure, i’m using S/D atm and not even built full deadly arts, i still proc it at 3.5k on the most fragile players.
2.5k C&D from a D/P or old D/D thief is really average too even after las t year’s nerf.

-edit : when i write potentially i’m assuming everything crits if that’s what troubles you with those numbers

muscarine.5136:

Med.6150:

muscarine.5136:

On glassy targets in a very short time frame :
C&D+Mug+Air sigil : potentially ~3200 + 3500 + 3500
(BS+Mug+Air sigil, HS+Mug+Air sigil, etc)

These numbers…where are people pulling these from. You have never been able to hit for 3.5k from an air sigil (you might confuse this with the air rune proc, who knows). Air sigil is gonna hit for 2k on a glass cannon.

C&D has been doing 66% of the damage that Steal (Mug) used to ever since they nerfed C&D by 33%.

So in reality the numbers above would look like this assuming Steal would do 3.5k (and yes I know you could get much higher an I welcome any burst reduction to this game): 2.35k (C&D) + 3.5k Steal (using this as a baseline for the combo) + 1.75k Lightning Strike.

I’m sorry, what ? 1.7k air sigil proc ? Sure, i’m using S/D atm and not even built full deadly arts, i still proc it at 3.5k on the most fragile players.
2.5k C&D from a D/P or old D/D thief is really average too even after las t year’s nerf.

-edit : when i write potentially i’m assuming everything crits if that’s what troubles you with those numbers

No, because Lightning Strike from sigils can’t crit. I don’t know what you have seen, but it’s most definitely not Lightning Strike (from air sigil and not air runes; those two are not related) that’s hitting for 3.5k.

My numbers are solid, because they are not based on some magical random figure that I have read about. I took your 3.5k Mug pre-patch as a reference and calculated how much a Lightning Strike and a C&D would hit for based on their stat contribution relative to Mug’s. It’s as simple as that.

Reesha.7901:

Swim.6830:

It would be balanced if instead of smart selfdestructing projectiles that chase you, the clones acted on the last known position when pressing the shatter button (like dragon tooth, comet etc.)

So… We should spend time generating our clones and phantasms. Then we should detonate them and all people would have to do to negate the main source of damage from any shatter mesmer would be to take a step back?
I fail to see how that possibly could be balanced.

Swim.6830:

Here is one for after patch>

Tier S:
Ranger

Tier A:
Ranger Pet +
Engineer +
Guardian +
Mesmer =
Thief =
Elementalist -
Necromancer -

Tier B:
Warrior

Tier C:
n/a

So eventhough mesmer (according to you) is in the same tier as most other classes, we clearly should be nerfed?
I fail to understand your logic.

You seem to think the shatter build is the only viable one. I put Mesmers as equal on overall. I also didn’t say anything about nerfing. I think the healing aspect of Mesmers should be improved, but that’s not what this topic is about…

Swim.6830:

You seem to think the shatter build is the only viable one. I put Mesmers as equal on overall. I also didn’t say anything about nerfing. I think the healing aspect of Mesmers should be improved, but that’s not what this topic is about…

No, the topic is about nerfing mindwrack. In my opinion your suggestion would nerf the shatter mesmer (not just the mindwrack) and therefore also the viability of the shatter mesmer.
Besides that you said the following in your first post:

While my arcane wave does 4x less damage than wrack I am signing this. Tired of having a ranged caster class out DPS the melee caster and be completely over the top compared to staff Eles…

As far as I know, then that is calling for a nerf.

evilapprentice.6379:

jportell.2197:

evilapprentice.6379:

None of this has anything, at all, to do with my point.

My point was (and still is), don’t pretend that 8k Mug crits (pre-nerf) were possible, and don’t pretend that 4k mug crits (pre-nerf) were typical. 8k mug crits did not exist, and 4k mug crits were a result of a GC satisfying conditionals on multiple traits, all of them very deep in their trait lines.

8k mugs maybe not. I don’t think I ever said they hit 8k if I did my bad. Also for a Mesmer to get good burst he must have a very specific build at least 30 into one line and 20 into another. However we only have one trait that increases mindwrack damage over all… by 20% which really isn’t all that much considering that mug is an very high percentage increase since it went from a skill that does no damage to does well over 2k+ damage. Also thieves can repeat their burst every 4 seconds. If you fight a target that doesn’t go down to your first mug+cnd+backstab. Wait 4s (I think it should be 3 still) restealth. And do it again.
Also honestly thieves would do better if they didn’t take mug at all.. And they tried building a more balanced build. If they do that and still take zerker amulet+power runes they are still very tough to kill and can stack might to almost 25 full time depending on the runes… Currently if you build the 25/30/0/0/15 with all zerker amulet and runes… Any bunker will laugh at you and dance on your corpse. They aren’t meant to be bursted.. But you can still wear on them.

Now as for the op argument of nerfing mindwrack like mug. Once again mesmers suffered massive nerfs in this last patch for PvP and WvW as well as several others before that. Mindwrack is garbage damage to begin with and to pull it off you need to do at least 3 separate skills before that plus a different shatter. so that is 6 illusions and two shatters. The thief combo went Steal+CnD+Backstab rinse CnD+backstab til target died… The only thing that changed was mugs damage. Was it over the top maybe did it wreck the thief class no. I didn’t even start pvp on my thief til after the nerf. Right now mesmers are general stuck in the shatter build…

You never claimed Mug was critting for 8k – your name simply got pulled in to the discussion via exaggerators.

Your synopsis of thieves “being better if they didn’t take mug at all and instead built more defensively” is again an issue of either inexperience with thief, or trolling. Thieves more than any other class in the game gain the least by speccing defensively. We have no access to stability or protection as boons, have no way to gain invuln/direct damage immunity, have no block, and have poor (when compared to other classes) access to regen. Thieves, more than any other class, gain the least by sacrificing DPS stats for survivability stats. Even the dev’s agree, which is why they’ve stated (in a SotG) that they’re looking to allow thieves to spend more points defensively without impacting their burst (since their vision of thieves still has them being the highest burst and the best mobility).

Poor access to regen? Are you freaking kidding me? There are two traits in SA that grant health for stealth One is regen Trait III the other is regenerate health while in stealth XI I believe. Couple that with power runes (might stacking) and a zerker amulet you can still land backstabs in the 3-4k range and be way more survivable than people would think thieves should be. Tbh I wish mes had access to thieves regen. You guys get it from your heal (mes gets nothing from the heal.) Plus a skill that can heal you to full and isn’t even your heal skill… and you can take two traits that give you health while in stealth and it allows might stacking. Taking mug now is a very heavy handed thing and not really necessary thieves can burst just fine with out it. And be way more survivable. Do not tell me that thief has crappy access to regen because they have better access to it than necros/warriors/engineers/and yes mesmers because in the current tourney requirements mesmers usually cannot spec defensively at all. Couple thieves good regen with the new FOTM sword/dagger bulds you now have 3 defensive things spammable condi cleanse/great regen boon up time/passive health regen in stealth. Seriously if every classes defensive trait line was as good as thieves then people would be screaming.

back on topic. Mindwrack doesn’t need nerfed like mug. Once again the base damage is terrible and to do good damage mesmers have to spec full glass and thieves have one of the best defensive trait lines in the game. you don’t need stability or protection spammable blinds (d/p) take care of that and access to regen is simply amazing.

Med.6150:

muscarine.5136:

Med.6150:

muscarine.5136:

On glassy targets in a very short time frame :
C&D+Mug+Air sigil : potentially ~3200 + 3500 + 3500
(BS+Mug+Air sigil, HS+Mug+Air sigil, etc)

These numbers…where are people pulling these from. You have never been able to hit for 3.5k from an air sigil (you might confuse this with the air rune proc, who knows). Air sigil is gonna hit for 2k on a glass cannon.

C&D has been doing 66% of the damage that Steal (Mug) used to ever since they nerfed C&D by 33%.

So in reality the numbers above would look like this assuming Steal would do 3.5k (and yes I know you could get much higher an I welcome any burst reduction to this game): 2.35k (C&D) + 3.5k Steal (using this as a baseline for the combo) + 1.75k Lightning Strike.

I’m sorry, what ? 1.7k air sigil proc ? Sure, i’m using S/D atm and not even built full deadly arts, i still proc it at 3.5k on the most fragile players.
2.5k C&D from a D/P or old D/D thief is really average too even after las t year’s nerf.

-edit : when i write potentially i’m assuming everything crits if that’s what troubles you with those numbers

No, because Lightning Strike from sigils can’t crit. I don’t know what you have seen, but it’s most definitely not Lightning Strike (from air sigil and not air runes; those two are not related) that’s hitting for 3.5k.

My numbers are solid, because they are not based on some magical random figure that I have read about. I took your 3.5k Mug pre-patch as a reference and calculated how much a Lightning Strike and a C&D would hit for based on their stat contribution relative to Mug’s. It’s as simple as that.

Well i tested on golems just to have a rough estimation and what you say is true, since i run both air sigil and air rune i guess i mixed up one with the other, now i don’t understand how i could misread my logs.

Can you get an air rune proc on retaliation ?

They need to make shattering less focused on DPS, imo. In fact a lot of the dps and sustain could use toning down.

I always imagined clones as tools to provide area control or some interesting field effect. Why not make it so that shattering clones creates exploitable combo fields or other support effects? It’ll at the very least be more interesting than the the current focus of balancing it on dps.

TwoBit.5903:

They need to make shattering less focused on DPS, imo. In fact a lot of the dps and sustain could use toning down.

I always imagined clones as tools to provide area control or some interesting field effect. Why not make it so that shattering clones creates exploitable combo fields or other support effects? It’ll at the very least be more interesting than the the current focus of balancing it on dps.

The only other good thing about shatters is confusion which is very lackluster… Anet can tone down shatter damage when they make confusion worth something other than “ooo 100 extra damage from 8stacks yippee! /sarcasm”