Guild Wars 2

Though the balance has surely changed, and the meta accordingly so, PvP is a hard pill to swallow…

I find myself not incentified, challenged or even remotely excited to actually try and play during the time available, and it gets reflected amongst many others.

I do not have the numbers, but I am willing to bet that the community did get smaller since last December – being forced to stare at a ticking timer, only to have seemingly imbalanced match-ups (even when the majority does not seem so in statistics) for what is not even close to an actual incentive or reward that reflects PvP makes it really tough to even try and enjoy this game.
While I am fully aware of the joy that can be had, and I am fully aware of the fact that most matches are close, real excitement is gone. Just even casually playing a few matches seem like a drag that I do not want to pull myself through, something I see happening with others as well – often spending the time just AFK-ing or simply not playing the game.
The removal of Solo-Q, though promised some newly reworked algorythm seems simply not worth it, oftentimes leading to rage inducing match-ups. The previous system was not flawless, but it felt a lot more cohesive than the current one. Given that the sample community I am in represents people leaving PvP, it leads to even less people wanting to play, and less people actually getting a good treshold of opponents

I really do hope that besides balance, which should rightfully be maintained, some reward and serious progression will come to exist. The attraction is gone, and though the combat is beautiful, it is not enough to sustain it like this in the long run. You might be proud that some people who got bored of Silverwastes Farming decide to get a champion title in PvP, getting some new players – but when I hear “I will get my title and then never return” echoing throughout my guild every time, I see no other thing to do then tell them they are somewhat right.

TL:DR: Serious rewards missing, people leaving, casual playing feels like a drag. Treshold of players running dry.
For discussion’s sake – is my gut feeling right or wrong? Or is my representation of people just something that occurs only within the crowd of people I see? Genuinly curious about your thoughts.

You got too many shots from drinking whenever Necro got one-shotted and now you want to change PvP? Go to bed, ur wasted Brandon.

+1
i joined this game for pvp, i love combat of this game but only thing i did for past few weeks is log in, do daily gathering in home instance/crafting; log off…. :|

- too buggy
- too imbalanced
- too slow updates
- ranked are pointless
- qing alone is pointless
- stuck in hotm jumping around same rock to 10th millions time and staring at q timer because nothing else to do :|
zzzzzzzzz

Cynz.9437:

+1
i joined this game for pvp, i love combat of this game but only thing i did for past few weeks is log in, do daily gathering in home instance/crafting; log off…. :|

- too buggy
- too imbalanced
- too slow updates
- ranked are pointless
- qing alone is pointless
- stuck in hotm jumping around same rock to 10th millions time and staring at q timer because nothing else to do :|
zzzzzzzzz

hop around hotjoin until you find a newly starting server. play there. it is significantly more fun than current un/ranked fights.

if autobalance pulls u to a side w/ huge loss incoming, just go to server list and find another server.

overall you’ll have more time actually playing (hopping around for servers takes less time than waiting on queues), more even fights (less premades), and more fun (at least i have)

w/ the snowball effect from autobalance and leavers, there is some frustration, but in general i’m enjoying it much more

Balance is an ongoing process, people will always be ‘mad’.
What this game needs, since launch, is a competitive infrastructure.
Tons of threads and feedback, but we still don’t have a decent infrastructure. (though slowly but surely it’s getting “there”)

It’s a teamgame in its very nature but there is literally no incentive to team up except for some organized tournaments:
Pushing the soloq experience instead of a team/pug experience.

Focussing on the casual and the top end, while ignoring the “casual competitive” kept the pvp population small:
Hotjoin harmed the game in a indescribable way (skilllevel of players, ranks, population of other queues, enjoyment of the gamemode, etc.)
Pushing streamed tournaments organized by third parties because thats what esports entails these days. But you need to get there first, honestly. You need a casual competitive scene as a backbone of your pvp.
We don’t want to sign up on a third party platform, deal with all the delays and inconsistency, face the high end, etc.

Building a casual competitive scene requires a robust infrastructure:
- Focus on teams. A teamqueue is needed obviously. Better rewards in that teamqueue.
- Automated tournaments (a la gw1). A more competitive platform than the usual ranked queues but it has higher stakes.
- Hell while at it, add a replay system (a la gw1…again) with all the AT’s on it (and the third party tournaments).

It could have issues:
- Every system needs a population, which gw2 pvp always had issues with.
But, your decisions and systems should still be focussed on teamplay/queue. Take some risk.
- Add a requirement to AT’s with tickets (sounds familiar eh) so that people still run the ranked teamq’s.
- etc.

Anyway, don’t know why I still type this up but w/e.

Jaxom.7310:

Cynz.9437:

+1
i joined this game for pvp, i love combat of this game but only thing i did for past few weeks is log in, do daily gathering in home instance/crafting; log off…. :|

- too buggy
- too imbalanced
- too slow updates
- ranked are pointless
- qing alone is pointless
- stuck in hotm jumping around same rock to 10th millions time and staring at q timer because nothing else to do :|
zzzzzzzzz

hop around hotjoin until you find a newly starting server. play there. it is significantly more fun than current un/ranked fights.

if autobalance pulls u to a side w/ huge loss incoming, just go to server list and find another server.

overall you’ll have more time actually playing (hopping around for servers takes less time than waiting on queues), more even fights (less premades), and more fun (at least i have)

w/ the snowball effect from autobalance and leavers, there is some frustration, but in general i’m enjoying it much more

ppl tend to leave games i join :|

i think they don’t like thieves :|

They need to draw a clearer bridge between pvp and other game modes.

What do we do with 50x stacks of account bound Empyreal Fragments and stuff, i’m willing to bet most of the pvper’s never bothered learning crafting professions.

What do we do with the handfull silvers we get when the proper equipment costs hundreds/thousands of gold to get for proper WvW gear. I’m talking ascended gear and loads of consumables.
Plus the recent changes got the price of desired runes and such to skyrocket.

Bags overflowing with meaningless chests offering keys for places we’ll never visit, shower of trash loot to sell for a copper, a hundred thousand clicks to empty, even worst when it’s something asking for it’s exact name to be deleted.

~12000 games since launch, (and certainly not the most) 3 pieces of ascended gear, only one with the desired stats. I’m still poor and now have to spend a currency to change skin, the only benefit we had from camping the mists.
And that’s still very PVE, most of us very rarely step outside the mists.

Cynz.9437:

Jaxom.7310:

Cynz.9437:

+1
i joined this game for pvp, i love combat of this game but only thing i did for past few weeks is log in, do daily gathering in home instance/crafting; log off…. :|

- too buggy
- too imbalanced
- too slow updates
- ranked are pointless
- qing alone is pointless
- stuck in hotm jumping around same rock to 10th millions time and staring at q timer because nothing else to do :|
zzzzzzzzz

hop around hotjoin until you find a newly starting server. play there. it is significantly more fun than current un/ranked fights.

if autobalance pulls u to a side w/ huge loss incoming, just go to server list and find another server.

overall you’ll have more time actually playing (hopping around for servers takes less time than waiting on queues), more even fights (less premades), and more fun (at least i have)

w/ the snowball effect from autobalance and leavers, there is some frustration, but in general i’m enjoying it much more

ppl tend to leave games i join :|

i think they don’t like thieves :|

people do leave once the snowball gets into effect, but i still have more fun than waiting in queues for mismatched fights

butch.8136:

Balance is an ongoing process, people will always be ‘mad’.
What this game needs, since launch, is a competitive infrastructure.
Tons of threads and feedback, but we still don’t have a decent infrastructure. (though slowly but surely it’s getting “there”)

It’s a teamgame in its very nature but there is literally no incentive to team up except for some organized tournaments:
Pushing the soloq experience instead of a team/pug experience.

Focussing on the casual and the top end, while ignoring the “casual competitive” kept the pvp population small:
Hotjoin harmed the game in a indescribable way (skilllevel of players, ranks, population of other queues, enjoyment of the gamemode, etc.)
Pushing streamed tournaments organized by third parties because thats what esports entails these days. But you need to get there first, honestly. You need a casual competitive scene as a backbone of your pvp.
We don’t want to sign up on a third party platform, deal with all the delays and inconsistency, face the high end, etc.

Building a casual competitive scene requires a robust infrastructure:
- Focus on teams. A teamqueue is needed obviously. Better rewards in that teamqueue.
- Automated tournaments (a la gw1). A more competitive platform than the usual ranked queues but it has higher stakes.
- Hell while at it, add a replay system (a la gw1…again) with all the AT’s on it (and the third party tournaments).

It could have issues:
- Every system needs a population, which gw2 pvp always had issues with.
But, your decisions and systems should still be focussed on teamplay/queue. Take some risk.
- Add a requirement to AT’s with tickets (sounds familiar eh) so that people still run the ranked teamq’s.
- etc.

Anyway, don’t know why I still type this up but w/e.

I strongly disagree with better rewards in teamq. Why should players be penalized or rewarded for a particular playstyle? We need a teamq obviously. But no differences in rewards please. Or else people (like me) will simply solo q in the team q.

Also, we need higher rewards for higher MMR matchups.

I agree that solo queue should be added again. On the other hand pvp has just started to be fun again.

I hear you bro.

3 weeks ago I moved with my friends to another game. A real PvP game. Then 2-3 days ago I logged in here, queued for PvP match, waited 7+ mins and thought “wtf I’m doing here and why?” Then logged out. I haven’t quit, I still love this game but right now I have no reason to play.

Rym.1469:

You got too many shots from drinking whenever Necro got one-shotted and now you want to change PvP? Go to bed, ur wasted Brandon.

Fun fact, this game is several times more enjoyable when drunk. No really, it is

serenke.4806:

I agree that solo queue should be added again. On the other hand pvp has just started to be fun again.

It is “fun” because the meta changed. The meta has yet to actually stabalize, especially on “lower tiered” play, so everything is kinda viable.
However, you can try so hard, and maybe get far. But in the end, it really doesn’t matter. There is no carrot to chase but a statistical number which no one will ever see or take note of. I have said it in the past once, and repeat it again, but last year’s April 15th destroyed actual progression, in trade of for extremely casual rewards in the form of reward tracks.

I guess it is but a dream of mine to see this game grow. I love the community, adore the gameplay, but I just cannot bring myself to take this game serious anymore, and neither would I recommend getting it (or the Xpac) solely on how empty it feels.

I had like a 3-0 record yesterday, all games had no dcers/leavers, and games decided within like like 75 points. It was scary. Too scary. If PvP could always be like that it’d be amazing.

I stopped queueing before I ruined the magic though.

It’s all about teaming up sadly. If you have a team – maybe even using voice comm – it’s all much better actually. Also the rewards are of course rather useless but playing 3-5 matches per day is rewarding enough, if you don’t take it too seriously.

I guess this is the ultimate e-sports because sport is not about big money but testing your mettle against others and perfecting yourself at something.

Yes and no…

First off, playing with a team is not more enjoyable for the content – you can do a five-man Silverwastes grind and have about the same joy as you would have in PvP. This is part of the satisfaction coming from human interaction.
The reason why this is not an exaggeration is because in PvP there is 0 incentive to win. Look back and be honest, aside from personal satisfaction that lasts about 2 minutes, which can be achieved by a simple motion of the hand in a specific spot, there is no real purpose in winning. Why not? Well, because there is nothing that reflects winning – and waiting 7 minutes for nothing in a game means a lot of lost time when you could have about as much fun, or even more, for more satisfactory events in- and outside of the game.

And sorry, but you are completely off about sports not being about the money (reward). Even in amateur leagues, there are things as leaderboards, cohesive point systems, tournaments and fitting rewards (medals, or a paid lunch). If you maybe sport once a year then you would not notice it, but then looking back at GW2, this would be the equivalent of playing once every two months. In a community that seems to decline in numbers (personal observation and based on content that is being streamed), this means a death-toll, because it will lead to even less satisfaction since there is no one to test your mettle.

And no, PvP is not rewarding. This is something I have elaborately explained a year ago . Simply put, there are two types of rewards; one that gives you silvers to buy your gems to get black lion keys, and others that reflect your efforts done in and for PvP – of which the latter is sorely missing from the game. If you got peace with the former, then good for you, however do not think that everyone is satisfied with their silvers, and this is reflected in the enthausiasm of wanting to play.

I enjoy my pvp and also watch all streamed 5v5 tournaments.

One thing that could improve the pvp scene is to stop trying to hurt players feelings in pvp. Continue that in pve but in pvp all MMR should be visible, more exclusive vanities like tournament titles and ofcourse MMR based leaderboard.

bhagwad.4281:

butch.8136:

Balance is an ongoing process, people will always be ‘mad’.
What this game needs, since launch, is a competitive infrastructure.
Tons of threads and feedback, but we still don’t have a decent infrastructure. (though slowly but surely it’s getting “there”)

It’s a teamgame in its very nature but there is literally no incentive to team up except for some organized tournaments:
Pushing the soloq experience instead of a team/pug experience.

Focussing on the casual and the top end, while ignoring the “casual competitive” kept the pvp population small:
Hotjoin harmed the game in a indescribable way (skilllevel of players, ranks, population of other queues, enjoyment of the gamemode, etc.)
Pushing streamed tournaments organized by third parties because thats what esports entails these days. But you need to get there first, honestly. You need a casual competitive scene as a backbone of your pvp.
We don’t want to sign up on a third party platform, deal with all the delays and inconsistency, face the high end, etc.

Building a casual competitive scene requires a robust infrastructure:
- Focus on teams. A teamqueue is needed obviously. Better rewards in that teamqueue.
- Automated tournaments (a la gw1). A more competitive platform than the usual ranked queues but it has higher stakes.
- Hell while at it, add a replay system (a la gw1…again) with all the AT’s on it (and the third party tournaments).

It could have issues:
- Every system needs a population, which gw2 pvp always had issues with.
But, your decisions and systems should still be focussed on teamplay/queue. Take some risk.
- Add a requirement to AT’s with tickets (sounds familiar eh) so that people still run the ranked teamq’s.
- etc.

Anyway, don’t know why I still type this up but w/e.

I strongly disagree with better rewards in teamq. Why should players be penalized or rewarded for a particular playstyle? We need a teamq obviously. But no differences in rewards please. Or else people (like me) will simply solo q in the team q.

Also, we need higher rewards for higher MMR matchups.

In this scenario there would be no soloq in teamq. Only teams/pugs against teams/pugs.
Stronghold/conquest, gw2 gameplay in its entirety, is teambased first and foremost (rotational play over mechanical play).
Why is there so much rage/frustration (regardless of matchup) in gw2pvp? Because you can hardly carry with your individual skill, unless the skill level differs greatly. You depend greatly on your teammates.

Unless they add voicecoms, there should be a hard split between a full teamq and soloq. And ofcourse you need incentives for teamq because that’s what you’re aiming for when you want to build a competitive scene (regardless of ‘esports’).

butch.8136:

bhagwad.4281:

butch.8136:

Balance is an ongoing process, people will always be ‘mad’.
What this game needs, since launch, is a competitive infrastructure.
Tons of threads and feedback, but we still don’t have a decent infrastructure. (though slowly but surely it’s getting “there”)

It’s a teamgame in its very nature but there is literally no incentive to team up except for some organized tournaments:
Pushing the soloq experience instead of a team/pug experience.

Focussing on the casual and the top end, while ignoring the “casual competitive” kept the pvp population small:
Hotjoin harmed the game in a indescribable way (skilllevel of players, ranks, population of other queues, enjoyment of the gamemode, etc.)
Pushing streamed tournaments organized by third parties because thats what esports entails these days. But you need to get there first, honestly. You need a casual competitive scene as a backbone of your pvp.
We don’t want to sign up on a third party platform, deal with all the delays and inconsistency, face the high end, etc.

Building a casual competitive scene requires a robust infrastructure:
- Focus on teams. A teamqueue is needed obviously. Better rewards in that teamqueue.
- Automated tournaments (a la gw1). A more competitive platform than the usual ranked queues but it has higher stakes.
- Hell while at it, add a replay system (a la gw1…again) with all the AT’s on it (and the third party tournaments).

It could have issues:
- Every system needs a population, which gw2 pvp always had issues with.
But, your decisions and systems should still be focussed on teamplay/queue. Take some risk.
- Add a requirement to AT’s with tickets (sounds familiar eh) so that people still run the ranked teamq’s.
- etc.

Anyway, don’t know why I still type this up but w/e.

I strongly disagree with better rewards in teamq. Why should players be penalized or rewarded for a particular playstyle? We need a teamq obviously. But no differences in rewards please. Or else people (like me) will simply solo q in the team q.

Also, we need higher rewards for higher MMR matchups.

In this scenario there would be no soloq in teamq. Only teams/pugs against teams/pugs.
Stronghold/conquest, gw2 gameplay in its entirety, is teambased first and foremost (rotational play over mechanical play).
Why is there so much rage/frustration (regardless of matchup) in gw2pvp? Because you can hardly carry with your individual skill, unless the skill level differs greatly. You depend greatly on your teammates.

Unless they add voicecoms, there should be a hard split between a full teamq and soloq. And ofcourse you need incentives for teamq because that’s what you’re aiming for when you want to build a competitive scene (regardless of ‘esports’).

What are you aiming for when you want to build a competitive scence? Solo players are every bit as competitive as pre mades. I remember when they had solo q, they even had separate leaderboards. Now that was competitive.

The only problem was rewards. You can’t disallow soloers in team q since that would mean unacceptable wait times – no one would do it. But if the rewards for team q are higher, I’m always going to solo in the team q.

Does anyone miss ranks yet? One of the incentives for me to play was to get higher and higher ranks. I need some goal.

Right now, it’s getting all the Ambrite skins. No idea what will keep me motivated after that.

GoogleBrandon.5073:

last year’s April 15th destroyed actual progression

this…along with many other things

there’s just nothing to play for..aside from pve heroes playing for achievement points and crap like that ofc

Quoting pirates of the caribbean: “What shall we die for?”

bhagwad.4281:

What are you aiming for when you want to build a competitive scence? Solo players are every bit as competitive as pre mades. I remember when they had solo q, they even had separate leaderboards. Now that was competitive.

The only problem was rewards. You can’t disallow soloers in team q since that would mean unacceptable wait times – no one would do it. But if the rewards for team q are higher, I’m always going to solo in the team q.

I’m not saying they should remove the solo experience, hence after 3 years that would be a dumb move. But they should push the team environment more, because that’s where it’s at (or should be atleast).

You can build a team only queue. But you should make it worth it. Otherwise, yes, people won’t join.

But hey, they have a team leaderboard planned. We’ll see how that works out.
If you think that’ll be representative of anything with solo/duo’s mixed in than you’re very wrong.
You’re basically saying the opposite of me. More solo, less team. And that’s not how it should be.

>bhagwad.4281
>Does anyone miss ranks yet? One of the incentives for me to play was to get higher >and higher ranks. I need some goal.

I do miss rank progression. No idea why it needed to be watered down.

Do people not want to win because of the joy of competition anymore? Like, anyone anywhere? Always with needing rewards (material or recognition) to be incentivized to partake in the thrill of a competitive activity.

Cogbyrn.7283:

Do people not want to win because of the joy of competition anymore? Like, anyone anywhere? Always with needing rewards (material or recognition) to be incentivized to partake in the thrill of a competitive activity.

play a game for 3 years. play it without any rewards. play it without any real progression. play it daily.

butch.8136:

bhagwad.4281:

What are you aiming for when you want to build a competitive scence? Solo players are every bit as competitive as pre mades. I remember when they had solo q, they even had separate leaderboards. Now that was competitive.

The only problem was rewards. You can’t disallow soloers in team q since that would mean unacceptable wait times – no one would do it. But if the rewards for team q are higher, I’m always going to solo in the team q.

I’m not saying they should remove the solo experience, hence after 3 years that would be a dumb move. But they should push the team environment more, because that’s where it’s at (or should be atleast).

You can build a team only queue. But you should make it worth it. Otherwise, yes, people won’t join.

But hey, they have a team leaderboard planned. We’ll see how that works out.
If you think that’ll be representative of anything with solo/duo’s mixed in than you’re very wrong.
You’re basically saying the opposite of me. More solo, less team. And that’s not how it should be.

I don’t know why it should be anything. Let people team up if they want to. Let people play solo if they want to. There’s no reason to prefer one over the other. In fact, there are a lot more solo players than team players – so if anything, the former needs to be catered to before the latter.

Cogbyrn.7283:

Do people not want to win because of the joy of competition anymore? Like, anyone anywhere? Always with needing rewards (material or recognition) to be incentivized to partake in the thrill of a competitive activity.

Cue the self righteous dude who feels he should tell other people why they should play and which motives are “better” than others.

bhagwad.4281:

Cogbyrn.7283:

Do people not want to win because of the joy of competition anymore? Like, anyone anywhere? Always with needing rewards (material or recognition) to be incentivized to partake in the thrill of a competitive activity.

Cue the self righteous dude who feels he should tell other people why they should play and which motives are “better” than others.

He never said his motives were better.

You play this game for fun. Competition (read real competition between two equal sides) is fun. The cash should be the cherry on top for the people who attempt to go pro.

Also, I agree with the rest of the suggestions here. We need more frequent PvP ladder systems with more PvP specific cosmetics. Honestly, at this point, I don’t know what anet is doing. All the players are asking for is quite literally balance and cosmetics. These used to be the only two things GW2 had. Now it doesn’t even have that lol.

SlayerSixx.5763:

bhagwad.4281:

Cogbyrn.7283:

Do people not want to win because of the joy of competition anymore? Like, anyone anywhere? Always with needing rewards (material or recognition) to be incentivized to partake in the thrill of a competitive activity.

Cue the self righteous dude who feels he should tell other people why they should play and which motives are “better” than others.

He never said his motives were better.

You play this game for fun. Competition (read real competition between two equal sides) is fun. The cash should be the cherry on top for the people who attempt to go pro.

Also, I agree with the rest of the suggestions here. We need more frequent PvP ladder systems with more PvP specific cosmetics. Honestly, at this point, I don’t know what anet is doing. All the players are asking for is quite literally balance and cosmetics. These used to be the only two things GW2 had. Now it doesn’t even have that lol.

I disagree. One does not get to define “fun” for other people. Competition is fun, but it’s not the only thing. Lots of people found getting ranks “fun”. Or unlocking tons of PvP only gear was “fun”. The best part? No one is stopping Anet from catering to all these groups! This is not a zero sum game!

We can have competition. And we can have ranks. And we can have lots more exclusive PvP only skins and prestige gear. We can have it all!

P.S The poster was definitely implying that the “joy of competition” is superior to others. Hence the phrasing “Like anyone, anywhere” and the form of question “Do people not want…”.

It’s like an old timer for example talking about the good old times. “Young people these days! With all their fancy iPods and jeans and distracted all the time. Does no one just stop and pause and smell the roses anymore? Like anyone, anywhere?”

Sure, he hasn’t explicitly said “my way is better”, but that’s exactly the sentiment he wants to convey.

My current incentive is completing the armor collections via the skins you get from the dungeon reward tracks.

Cogbyrn.7283:

Do people not want to win because of the joy of competition anymore? Like, anyone anywhere? Always with needing rewards (material or recognition) to be incentivized to partake in the thrill of a competitive activity.

Again, yes and no.

I have been capable of sustaining myself for at least a year, but realistically speaking, it was because I was setting my own goals. Carrots – you know, stuff to chase.
People participate in events for either two things, personal satisfaction, or recognition. If you do jogging, you set a timer, try to beat your personal record, track for longer miles etc. etc. The reward is satisfying your inner lust for progression. Sometimes even something visible; a timer on the last courses you ran, a medal for the track you skated.
Some others will become competitive because they are driven by rivalry. Your pride says you can beat that one person, but for some reason he is always a step ahead of you. You want to train so that this rivalry can be maintained – again, personal satisfaction, the drive to become better.
Somewhat deeper you will find that people participate in tournaments, local, national or international. They do this for recognition. The satisfaction of being acknowledged the best of this event. These tournaments come in different scales, and often encouraged by the club you subscribe to.

All in all, you work for something. And if not, then you are playing for different reasons, but surely not purely competitively driven anymore. Considering this is a video game that has a competitive side to it – you would certainly not want to leave out those who are competitively driven, but the game does not do a good job keeping them in. Yes, if you were one of those who got good before the game offered money, and now you can profit, then kudos to you – but from scratch there is no incentive. Anet can consider themselves lucky that actual competitors for this specific branch of PvP are nowhere to be seen, but competitively speaking, this game is underpeforming.

Do not get me wrong, I understand what you try to say, but I personally, and this is something I hear echoing throughout many voices, cannot find a true incentive to try and get better, ranging from veterans to new players. While I am glad that maybe you and some others do find the joy in just having a blast without incentives, you cannot deny that people who crave for more aren’t there

so the insanely good PvE rewards , even ascended drops aren’t incentive enough? I play PvP because it rewards so well, just like every other part of the game now.

Xbon.9086:

so the insanely good PvE rewards , even ascended drops aren’t incentive enough? I play PvP because it rewards so well, just like every other part of the game now.

Cannot tell if you are genuine or being sarcastic, but if you missed it read this

TL:DR no, it is not, and I am not the only one who feels this way.

GoogleBrandon.5073:

Though the balance has surely changed, and the meta accordingly so, PvP is a hard pill to swallow…

I find myself not incentified, challenged or even remotely excited to actually try and play during the time available, and it gets reflected amongst many others.

I do not have the numbers, but I am willing to bet that the community did get smaller since last December – being forced to stare at a ticking timer, only to have seemingly imbalanced match-ups (even when the majority does not seem so in statistics) for what is not even close to an actual incentive or reward that reflects PvP makes it really tough to even try and enjoy this game.
While I am fully aware of the joy that can be had, and I am fully aware of the fact that most matches are close, real excitement is gone. Just even casually playing a few matches seem like a drag that I do not want to pull myself through, something I see happening with others as well – often spending the time just AFK-ing or simply not playing the game.
The removal of Solo-Q, though promised some newly reworked algorythm seems simply not worth it, oftentimes leading to rage inducing match-ups. The previous system was not flawless, but it felt a lot more cohesive than the current one. Given that the sample community I am in represents people leaving PvP, it leads to even less people wanting to play, and less people actually getting a good treshold of opponents

I really do hope that besides balance, which should rightfully be maintained, some reward and serious progression will come to exist. The attraction is gone, and though the combat is beautiful, it is not enough to sustain it like this in the long run. You might be proud that some people who got bored of Silverwastes Farming decide to get a champion title in PvP, getting some new players – but when I hear “I will get my title and then never return” echoing throughout my guild every time, I see no other thing to do then tell them they are somewhat right.

TL:DR: Serious rewards missing, people leaving, casual playing feels like a drag. Treshold of players running dry.
For discussion’s sake – is my gut feeling right or wrong? Or is my representation of people just something that occurs only within the crowd of people I see? Genuinly curious about your thoughts.

what on earth are you trying to say….please stop writing and go away nancy…..boooohooooring and a q-parade, man up kid

Xbon.9086:

so the insanely good PvE rewards , even ascended drops aren’t incentive enough? I play PvP because it rewards so well, just like every other part of the game now.

Well, thats just it. We’re looking for PvP rewards, not PvE.
We want PvP exclusives. We want rewards tied to skill and not solely time-investment.

pvp is just boring right now and that’s it. if you’re not playing with a team and going for esls there is absolutely nothing to do.

there are no titles to get after champion no matter how long you play your class, no progression at all.

i want achievements for my classes: winning matches should not only stop at titles but you should even get special gear and armor. why not give us a special class specific armor piece for every 250 won rated games? a title for 150, 500, 1000 and 2000 games so when you see somebody with a full pvp elementaist gear with a “legendary magus” title you can be sure that he knows his kitten.

there is no such progression right now, no ingame generated tournaments, no pvp shop and not even a way to get gift of exploration in pvp.

all we have now is an ugly glorious hero armor that is gted behind farming the leaderboards.

Darksteel.8412:

what on earth are you trying to say….please stop writing and go away nancy…..boooohooooring and a q-parade, man up kid

Thanks for the valuable input regarding the topic. I am always glad there is always this one dude who makes me realize that the community is sometimes not worth sticking for as well…

Covis.6037:

Cogbyrn.7283:

Do people not want to win because of the joy of competition anymore? Like, anyone anywhere? Always with needing rewards (material or recognition) to be incentivized to partake in the thrill of a competitive activity.

play a game for 3 years. play it without any rewards. play it without any real progression. play it daily.

I played Counter-Strike for 5 years straight. I played for the fun of it. I never leveled up, earned new guns, gained new traits, played in any leagues (though I almost joined one of the newbie CAL leagues), or anything like that.

Years and years of the same maps, the same guns, the same everything.

It just surprises me how people can’t just do something for the enjoyment of doing it anymore. Everything always has to have a level up mechanic, or some arbitrary point-accumulation, or titles or skins or etc.

I feel like an old man, wondering why all the kids these days can’t just enjoy their time playing with plastic toys, with their new-fangled gadgets and gizmos and flashy lights.

I’ve run out of anything to get with reward tracks; I’ve finished all glorious pieces, all ambrite skins, all regional skins, and so forth.

They should seriously just let you build an entire legendary out of PvP reward tracks. One track could reward a single token at the end of it, and with 20 of these tokens you can get an account bound precursor of your choice. That kind of reward system would be great for incentivizing PvP from a rewards perspective.

Cogbyrn.7283:

I feel like an old man, wondering why all the kids these days can’t just enjoy their time playing with plastic toys, with their new-fangled gadgets and gizmos and flashy lights.

Playing a game is fun, but playing a game that’s fun with rewards makes it more fun. Back in “the day” there were no good reward systems in popular games, so no one cared. Nowadays there are a lot of good reward systems in a lot of really popular games, so it’s frustrating to play a game that lacks a similar reward system.

Cogbyrn.7283:

Covis.6037:

Cogbyrn.7283:

Do people not want to win because of the joy of competition anymore? Like, anyone anywhere? Always with needing rewards (material or recognition) to be incentivized to partake in the thrill of a competitive activity.

play a game for 3 years. play it without any rewards. play it without any real progression. play it daily.

I played Counter-Strike for 5 years straight. I played for the fun of it. I never leveled up, earned new guns, gained new traits, played in any leagues (though I almost joined one of the newbie CAL leagues), or anything like that.

Years and years of the same maps, the same guns, the same everything.

It just surprises me how people can’t just do something for the enjoyment of doing it anymore. Everything always has to have a level up mechanic, or some arbitrary point-accumulation, or titles or skins or etc.

I feel like an old man, wondering why all the kids these days can’t just enjoy their time playing with plastic toys, with their new-fangled gadgets and gizmos and flashy lights.

GW2 is a MMORPG, not a FPS. MMORPGs have always been about progression and have always attracted progression gamers. Asking an MMO gamer to have fun without progression is like asking a basketball player to play on a court without hoops.

GoogleBrandon.5073:

Darksteel.8412:

what on earth are you trying to say….please stop writing and go away nancy…..boooohooooring and a q-parade, man up kid

Thanks for the valuable input regarding the topic. I am always glad there is always this one dude who makes me realize that the community is sometimes not worth sticking for as well…

tbh, you make some ok points about the rewards (tho they will in the end always be obtainable through spending enough time, can’t “cure” this)…the balance crying tho…i’m tired of…the game is awesomely balanced now for how balanced a game could be, maybe the mesmer is a bit to much but that’s questionable and preety much that’s it about “imbalance” ps. you are not my holy saviour and prince of justice….I don’t need you to improve my game

Darksteel.8412:

GoogleBrandon.5073:

Darksteel.8412:

what on earth are you trying to say….please stop writing and go away nancy…..boooohooooring and a q-parade, man up kid

Thanks for the valuable input regarding the topic. I am always glad there is always this one dude who makes me realize that the community is sometimes not worth sticking for as well…

tbh, you make some ok points about the rewards…the balance crying tho…i’m tired of…the game is awesomely balanced now for how balanced a game could be, maybe the mesmer is a bit to much but that’s questionable and preety much that’s it about “imbalance”

If you think I am crying, then I pardon you for my tone because it was not what I wanted. However, I find your response to be incredibly immature despite whatever you thought of my comment. If you had a personal gripe with the tone I set, you could’ve done so in a PM, or even left the thread alone.

But again, thanks, you made me realize I should’t give a kitten about it anyway because of people like you. I got hobbies and things to do, and you reminded me of how much more fun that is and can be.

+1 This is exactly the reason why I did not log in to this game for like 3 months. I played mostly pvp since i bought it, which was 2 years ago. Because there arent any incentives to play pvp and get better at it, I am not interested playing this game anymore until we get a competetive pvp infrastructure, which Brandon described already.

Cogbyrn.7283:

Covis.6037:

Cogbyrn.7283:

Do people not want to win because of the joy of competition anymore? Like, anyone anywhere? Always with needing rewards (material or recognition) to be incentivized to partake in the thrill of a competitive activity.

play a game for 3 years. play it without any rewards. play it without any real progression. play it daily.

I played Counter-Strike for 5 years straight. I played for the fun of it. I never leveled up, earned new guns, gained new traits, played in any leagues (though I almost joined one of the newbie CAL leagues), or anything like that.

Years and years of the same maps, the same guns, the same everything.

It just surprises me how people can’t just do something for the enjoyment of doing it anymore. Everything always has to have a level up mechanic, or some arbitrary point-accumulation, or titles or skins or etc.

I feel like an old man, wondering why all the kids these days can’t just enjoy their time playing with plastic toys, with their new-fangled gadgets and gizmos and flashy lights.

I feel the same way (played CS for 3 years for the fun of it) but I am old school also.

Like muscarine, the poster above, I used to be a hermit in the mists before any of the current rewards were implemented and know exactly what he means. People who enjoy PVPing know about the zone/rush you can get into when you’re focus gets to a high level and your fighting experience becomes an intoxicating mixture of destruction and art. I PVP for those moments and when I no longer feel that, I know its time for me to take a break or quit the game.

Getting some extra PVE perks while PVPing is nice, but you can’t have it as your sole reason to PVP (as some posters here seem to be suggesting) or you will have a miserable time.

I get that we’re dealing with an MMO, so the playerbase involved is more progression-oriented. However, I’d argue that progression doesn’t make a game more fun. If anything, it takes away from the game, since it’s very easy to focus on the carrot and not the enjoyment of getting it. Then when you get it, what happens? You look for another carrot. If there isn’t one, you don’t feel like playing. Progression is self-destructive, like an addiction, requiring more and more rewards to keep people hooked.

What should get you hooked in a PvP game is the competition, otherwise people will just leave, and any progression you add will have a quick boost of people that don’t actually care about the game.

I think it’s part of the reason why PvP will probably never stick in an MMO. People don’t have the right attitudes to make it stick.

EDIT – And look at FPSes of late. If I’m not mistaken, Call of Duty and Battlefield both employ level-up mechanics and progression to allow people to earn new guns, new skins, new abilities. I remember the moment I decided I didn’t want to play Battlefield 3. I jumped into a jet, took off, then realized I didn’t have any counter-measures, because my jet flying wasn’t a high enough level.

Cogbyrn.7283:

What should get you hooked in a PvP game is the competition, otherwise people will just leave, and any progression you add will have a quick boost of people that don’t actually care about the game.

I think it’s part of the reason why PvP will probably never stick in an MMO. People don’t have the right attitudes to make it stick

There is no such thing as a patch to improve the player base’s attitude. If you think mine and some other’s is wrong, then I do not wrong you for your opinion. But if you look at this game, the potential it has – is the “competition” sustaining enough, yes or no? I will accept my “loss” if Abjured finally has a rival in NA in the form of a team.

Leodon.1564:

Cogbyrn.7283:

Covis.6037:

Cogbyrn.7283:

Do people not want to win because of the joy of competition anymore? Like, anyone anywhere? Always with needing rewards (material or recognition) to be incentivized to partake in the thrill of a competitive activity.

play a game for 3 years. play it without any rewards. play it without any real progression. play it daily.

I played Counter-Strike for 5 years straight. I played for the fun of it. I never leveled up, earned new guns, gained new traits, played in any leagues (though I almost joined one of the newbie CAL leagues), or anything like that.

Years and years of the same maps, the same guns, the same everything.

It just surprises me how people can’t just do something for the enjoyment of doing it anymore. Everything always has to have a level up mechanic, or some arbitrary point-accumulation, or titles or skins or etc.

I feel like an old man, wondering why all the kids these days can’t just enjoy their time playing with plastic toys, with their new-fangled gadgets and gizmos and flashy lights.

I feel the same way (played CS for 3 years for the fun of it) but I am old school also.

Like muscarine, the poster above, I used to be a hermit in the mists before any of the current rewards were implemented and know exactly what he means. People who enjoy PVPing know about the zone/rush you can get into when you’re focus gets to a high level and your fighting experience becomes an intoxicating mixture of destruction and art. I PVP for those moments and when I no longer feel that, I know its time for me to take a break or quit the game.

Getting some extra PVE perks while PVPing is nice, but you can’t have it as your sole reason to PVP (as some posters here seem to be suggesting) or you will have a miserable time.

I don’t think anyone in the world is stopping you from getting your rush. And I don’t think you – or anyone else – should tell others what their sole reason to PvP should be.

“You can’t have it as your sole reason” – why not? How does it affect you? It doesn’t. Live and let live. You play for your reasons. I’ll play for mine. You don’t get to dictate why other people should play.

@ bhagwad – Calm down buddy; I didn’t mean to kitten in your cheerios. Of course you are free to play as you want (just as I am free to play as I want) and I am sorry if you felt I was trying to dictate how you should play. My post was just my opinion on why some people have less fun PVPing.

As an example, some people like playing chess for the enjoyment of playing it and nothing else. No monetary rewards, no fame, no perks, etc. There are some people who PVP for the same reason.

If you hate playing chess but play it because you get money to do so then you won’t have a good time doing it. (i.e., The monetary reward will not change your feelings about playing chess.)

@Cogbyrn – You are too sensible to be on the these forums.

The moralizing is strong in this thread:

1. " I’d argue that progression doesn’t make a game more fun" – it does for me

2. " it’s very easy to focus on the carrot" – I like carrots

3. “You look for another carrot. If there isn’t one, you don’t feel like playing” – luckily, these are digital goods with no cost to them. We can have 10 million carrots with the click of a button. Or really long term carrots. Like r80 used to be.

4. “What should get you hooked in a PvP game is the competition” – Oh it should, is it? Tell me more about how you think I should enjoy my game.

5. " People don’t have the right attitudes to make it stick." – But you just admitted that with the right carrots, people will stick on. Moreover, I just showed you that carrots can be created without effort.

6. “Getting some extra PVE perks while PVPing is nice, but you can’t have it as your sole reason to PVP” – We want PvP perks, not PvE perks

Seriously – stop judging other people for their reasons for playing. You remind me of these self righteous people judging others for taking photos instead of “enjoying the scene”. This xkcd comic is made just for you: https://xkcd.com/1314/

Bottom line: Why on earth do you care about the motivations of someone else playing?

Edit: Just saw above reply. Response:

Consider that before Fischer negotiated high match fees against Spasky in Iceland, chess players were paid abysmally. So badly, that the former chess world champion for 27 years Emanuel Lasker didn’t even keep chess as his primary profession! The same goes for just about every famous chess player including of course Paul Morphy. The Russians were the only ones able to dedicate so much time to it since the government was also involved.

Guess who dominated the Chess scene without exception till Fischer arrived? The Russians.

But what happened when Fischer showed the world how chess players should be compensated? The scene exploded and has never been the same. Every single grandmaster in chess today loves the game. But if you were to suddenly take away the “carrots” as you call them, you think they would continue to play chess professionally?

There are always primary and secondary motivations for an activity. And often, the secondary motivation is the real lynchpin. The real justification. Chess players love playing chess. That’s the primary motivation. But the secondary motivation is money. Take that away, and see how many of them continue to pursue it as passionately as they do now.

Similarly for PvP, there are primary and secondary motivations. The primary motivation is fun. The secondary motivation is rewards. Without the secondary motivation, people just wont’ play.

In fact…let Anet conduct an experiment. Let them try it. Let them for 1 month, take away all rewards of playing in PvP. Let’s see what happens to the population. Or does anyone want to guess?

bhagwad.4281:

I don’t think anyone in the world is stopping you from getting your rush. And I don’t think you – or anyone else – should tell others what their sole reason to PvP should be.

“You can’t have it as your sole reason” – why not? How does it affect you? It doesn’t. Live and let live. You play for your reasons. I’ll play for mine. You don’t get to dictate why other people should play.

I’m just sharing my opinion. I don’t think progression-based PvP is a sustainable solution for a competitive environment. Even if they gave you the option to farm for legendaries, once you got your legendaries, you’d want something else to progress towards.

I don’t think progression is a flawed game design thing. I enjoy it from time to time. I’m just personally sad to see how it has inserted itself into everything anywhere as an addictive little mechanic that gets you playing the game for the progression, not for the game.

EDIT – At this point, if they took away rewards, the PvP community would probably diminish. But who would leave? Those who are only there for rewards and don’t care about the competitive spirit? Maybe the PvP community would be better for it, but it might become too small and make it more difficult to find games. It’s a slippery slope.

ANet could have probably made sPvP F2P, used an MMR system for the queues, and generally enabled a more competition-centric design instead of progression-centric. If I’m not mistaken, in DOTA 2, you only have your MMR. There are no titles, no fancy borders, no MMR-gated skins. There’s just the thrill of fighting other people and becoming a better player. Those aren’t the only reasons the game is successful, but you need a competitive foundation if you’re going to go eSport. Not a progression-based foundation.

At the end of the day, as long as they keep gear normalized in sPvP, I’ll be happy. I just really don’t think progression is tenable for maintaining a competitive PvP environment.

And yes, this is all just my opinion. I thought we were sharing opinions, and in this case, I think ANet could be better served utilizing their development hours enhancing the competition instead of the progression. It isn’t just about us not letting you enjoy what you enjoy, because you can freely enjoy it. At this point it’s about design direction for the game, what is best for the game, and that’s an interesting topic for discussion.

You don’t have to take it all so personally.

@Leodon: I appreciate the sentiment, because I very often think I must be the crazy one these days. Not nearly as bad as the Age of Conan forums, though.

Cogbyrn.7283:

bhagwad.4281:

I don’t think anyone in the world is stopping you from getting your rush. And I don’t think you – or anyone else – should tell others what their sole reason to PvP should be.

“You can’t have it as your sole reason” – why not? How does it affect you? It doesn’t. Live and let live. You play for your reasons. I’ll play for mine. You don’t get to dictate why other people should play.

I’m just sharing my opinion. I don’t think progression-based PvP is a sustainable solution for a competitive environment. Even if they gave you the option to farm for legendaries, once you got your legendaries, you’d want something else to progress towards.

I don’t think progression is a flawed game design thing. I enjoy it from time to time. I’m just personally sad to see how it has inserted itself into everything anywhere as an addictive little mechanic that gets you playing the game for the progression, not for the game.

See above response on primary/secondary motivations.

But seriously – you are sad just because my motivations differ from yours? Even though it doesn’t affect you? What next? You’re sad that I play with focus and you play with dagger? That I like one game, and you like another? Where do you stop “being sad” just because someone else is different from you?

Viz-a-viz legendaries, progression can be made infinite with no effort at all. People are complaining that “Champion xyz” is the title limit. What is stopping Anet from introducing “levels” for each 150 games won? “Champion xyz (1)”, “Champion xyz (2)” and so forth?

In fact, why not let ranks go on infinitely? Why stop at 80? You see, with just a little bit of thought, Anet would have then created an infinite system of progression that would never end. I think that is very sustainable.

I have another idea! They could introduce “seasons” where everyone’s rank for that season goes to zero. And people can rank up within that season while still maintaining their “overall rank”. This would not discourage newer players from facing too great a hurdle since they can always start anew for the next season.

And these are just off the top of my head. Progression can be made infinite in hundreds of ways. If I can think of these, other people whose job it is to do so can surely come up with nicer ideas.

“But who would leave? Those who are only there for rewards and don’t care about the competitive spirit?”

How does “playing for rewards” vs “playing for competitive spirit” affect someone’s gameplay? Tell me, when in a match, are you able to look at what someone’s doing and divine their reasons for playing? “That necro used wells. He must have the competitive spirit! Whereas that mesmer over there is PU. He’s obviously playing for rewards!”.

I mean…how does it even matter why people are playing. Their playstyle doesn’t change. Their win/loss percentage has nothing to do with their motivations…so how can PvP be “better off” without players motivated by progression?

Speaking of DoTA, the MMR is now visible to other players – Guild Wars 2 doesn’t allow even that. At least that would have given some visible progression metric. But no….

And then there’s the whole phrase “competitive PvP environment”. What does that even mean? You think because progression is important to me, I am not competitive?

But all that is moot – at the age of 33, I do not need other people telling my why I should play. Especially since it affects no one but me. Moralizing is a very unattractive quality. Just learn to live and let live.