Guild Wars 2

Arkimedes.8730:

I’m surprised people are asking for mesmer to be nerfed. I am not surprised that people are noticing mesmer is more powerful since the patch, but I am surprised they want it to be nerfed. Without exaggeration, this is the first time since launch that mesmer has had good trait synergy. Seriously. The class has had its back broken since the first few months after the game came out.

Mesmer is working for the first time in 2 years. The class now has actual options for overall strategy, trait selection, weapon selection, and utility selection. Why do people want that to go away? I think it’s because anet has neglected actually fixing their classes for so long, that having a class in the game that actually works is upsetting to people.

It’s like, your parents beat you every day, and you have this friend, and his parents beat him every day too, so you get along. Then one day, he gets adopted by parents that love him, and don’t beat him, and you resent him for it. All you want is for him to get beaten as well, so you can go back to being the same. It’s crab mentality.

The problem to me is the awful way that the classes in the game are treated. I made a post awhile back, but for about two years fully half of the elementalist traits were so bad that they never had a place on any possible build. It was terrible. There are still enormous amounts of traits and weapons that have no place in any part of the game. That is not ok. And when anet does nerf things, they go way over the top with it. For practical examples, remember when warrior had an awesome greatsword + quickness dps build? Remember necro before the dhuumfire fiasco? And engineer got gutted this patch. Or, hell, remember when mesmers had viable confusion specs at launch?

There should not be useless traits, utilities, or weapons. Classes should have actual choices about the strategies they employ. I’m not saying there don’t need to be any changes to mesmer ever, but you can’t compare a class that’s working for the first time in three years to the barely functioning state of most of the classes today and say that mesmer should be nerfed on that basis. This game needs serious buffs.

You’re claiming that people who are asking for nerfs are asking for Mesmers to go back to being beaten. You’re wrong if you think that. Anyone who has been on the receiving end of confounding Suggestions and undodgeable blinds would know that those things need to change, there’s no question about it.

no no no no no

OP, my friend
There is much you are not understanding about why Mantra Mesmer is overboard
In a nutshell, here is what is going on:

• Top 3 DPS bursters in the game but other bursters have little to no defensive stature in their archetype. The Mantra Mesmer however, doesn’t need to die unless it gets greedy.
• Top sustain class in the game currently, matched only by D/D Cele Ele, Guardian Bunkers or these new Heal Engi Bunker variants. “Keep in mind the other Bunkers or even D/D Eles deal no where even near the amount of DPS as the Mantra Mesmer and have no stealth disengage, if they even have disengage at all”. Not to mention the constant boon removal.
• Top 3 CC archetypes in the game but maintains all it’s DPS while stating for control, constant boon removal and pure disengaging survival power.
• Easily the best 1v1 engager in the game. The Mantra Mesmer may not be able to kill you but you will not be killing that Mantra Mesmer without a +1. This is mainly due to 3 things that when combined are too too much: Mantra Of Restoration – the heal is to good, Mantra Of Distraction – the on demand CC rupts to stop your actions are too easy to use and too frequent, Stealthing/Blinking/Porting – the disengage is too much.
• It is too good at everything ~ The Mantra Mesmer can literally fit any conquest job role and do it just as well or better than other classes. Primary DPS engager? You got it, currently the best in the game, alongside of D/D Ele. Point Holder? You got it, best in the game alongside of new guardian bunkers. Your stealth may give up the point “eventually” but you’ll survive 10x longer than any other point holder in the game, guarantee it. Peeling +1ing? You got it, your Mesmer is now the strongest 1v1 class in the game and still amongst the top 2 most mobile. Your Mantra Mesmer also no longer has any hard counter in 1v1 ~ Enjoy

So OP, you tell me that the Mesmer “works now”
Maybe it works a little bit too good now

Trevor Boyer.6524:

• *It is too good at everything ~ The Mantra Mesmer can literally fit any conquest job role and do it just as well or better than other classes.

I don’t want to go deep into your flawed arguments. Just tell me why teams don’t go for 5 mesmers in a tournament despite the fact you do see teams go for multiple of certain other professions.

If you truly believe what you said. Please go for such a team and achieve respectable success. I would be amazed to see that happen.

So… Buff all the other (or most) professions so they’re up to par with mesmer instead of nerfing one profession? I could see alot of problems as a result. And while mesmer was not as strong before the patch, it wasn’t useless either. I had a great time on my mesmer pre-patch and I didn’t struggle at all.

Personally I would much prefer they first look at individual skills and traits and conditions that are problematic and balance them properly. Then look at the base health of each profession and consider each profession’s defensive mechanics and buff the professions in need of more of them. Or hey, everyone gets the same base health.

Mesmer is now practically a thief with better offensive and defensive skills/traits and higher health (compare zerker mesmer and zerker thief). It’s not okay. And yes, I’m bitter. My favourite profession (thief) now requires me to be 2x better than my opposition in order to win. No mistakes allowed. Learning curve has skyrocketed above my skill level and reaction time so I cannot play thief anymore and I feel I’m being carried when my team wins.

But I agree with the OP on one thing: professions are treated poorly. When something requires tweaking, it usually ends up being nerfed to the ground which results in less and less viable builds. It’s like there’s two ways they go about balance, either something is buffed into god mode or nerfed to the ground. Tbh after the issues of the big patch, I now worry what will happen when the elite specs (and Revenant) arrive.

EDIT: Actually, if they would just split skills between pvp and pve it would solve most if not all of the problems.

Exciton.8942:

Trevor Boyer.6524:

• *It is too good at everything ~ The Mantra Mesmer can literally fit any conquest job role and do it just as well or better than other classes.

I don’t want to go deep into your flawed arguments. Just tell me why teams don’t go for 5 mesmers in a tournament despite the fact you do see teams go for multiple of certain other professions.

If you truly believe what you said. Please go for such a team and achieve respectable success. I would be amazed to see that happen.

At least I have an argument
You my friend, are just trolling

But funny you mention it… I was considering running our team with 5 Mantra Mesmers in aspectGG’s tournament on the 18th.

Trevor Boyer.6524:

Exciton.8942:

Trevor Boyer.6524:

• *It is too good at everything ~ The Mantra Mesmer can literally fit any conquest job role and do it just as well or better than other classes.

I don’t want to go deep into your flawed arguments. Just tell me why teams don’t go for 5 mesmers in a tournament despite the fact you do see teams go for multiple of certain other professions.

If you truly believe what you said. Please go for such a team and achieve respectable success. I would be amazed to see that happen.

At least I have an argument
You my friend, are just trolling

But funny you mention it… I was considering running our team with 5 Mantra Mesmers in aspectGG’s tournament on the 18th.

Since you are going for that, there is no need for an argument. I will see if you will be a troll or a hero.

Every now and then, someone beats the crap out of their opponents in spvp, and sees how powerful their class is. When he hears the complaints about nerfs, he does not enrages, or fights. Quietly he opens a thread and claims his class is ok, not op. Because he thinks that it was not his class but him, that granted victory.

In many cases, sadly, it is true. A mesmer or a ele player with countless hours of practice, and experience wins a match. Then people starts to complain. Why? Because his class is strong. Then it bothers him. It was him that won all those matches, not a bloody “op” class. He is both right and wrong.

Mesmers and ele’s are op right now. Hush! Do not deny it, we both now it. I am an ele player too, who used to like playing dd ele. My close friend, whose main was a mesmer is in the same place with me. All these imbalanced things do give the profession a bad reputation. If any noob can take the character and press/kill easily, then what is the value of experience becomes? Everyone will say “omg op mesmer, op ele, burn guardian bugged…vb” and they are right. Because in another match, they saw a noob with a killing spree.

So my friend, our professions become worthless. Our loved builds become targets. In my opinion, Anet should balance things quickly, mesmer and dd ele are riddiculously powerful in some builds. Then all these new mesmers and ele’s will drop the profession and we will be happily playing. Before the patch mesmers were not bad, they were good. Ele’s were not bad, they were good. Because we could play it no matter what. Meta is just something designed for the “utttermost profit”. Any build can beat a meta if you know how to play very well.

By the way, I see nobody is arguing about the “limitedness” of professions. There are few meta builds and the rest is garbage. That bothers me too.

Trevor Boyer.6524:

Exciton.8942:

Trevor Boyer.6524:

• *It is too good at everything ~ The Mantra Mesmer can literally fit any conquest job role and do it just as well or better than other classes.

I don’t want to go deep into your flawed arguments. Just tell me why teams don’t go for 5 mesmers in a tournament despite the fact you do see teams go for multiple of certain other professions.

If you truly believe what you said. Please go for such a team and achieve respectable success. I would be amazed to see that happen.

At least I have an argument
You my friend, are just trolling

But funny you mention it… I was considering running our team with 5 Mantra Mesmers in aspectGG’s tournament on the 18th.

It’s not a troll. It’s a valid question; If Mesmer’s are capable of doing everything better than everyone else, why not just all mesmer team? What is trollish about this?

Where is the PROOF of all these accusations?

Valid points are; BD should not hit through dodge and maybe some ICD on the daze>stun trait.

I don’t even hate some of the ideas of moving some of the burst damage down to core damage and softening the damage up a bit. Just so long as they don’t get rid of the burst with nothing in its place as SOME of us do PVE as well.

Really it feels like they need to increase how durable everyone is. This fixes some of the PVP problems while also not affecting much in PVE (as that stuff hits harder than most players anyway)

blitzkrieg.2451:

I think the only time mesmer hasn’t been in the meta was when spirit rangers and necros and it was a HEAVY condition meta because shatter would melt during this time because no condi clear but then it became cele meta and shatter mesmer came back due to boon stripping and burst damage on tankier targets.

.

Incorrect actually.

Shatter mesmer was overshadowed by the power of thief for he entirety of that meta simply because the thief did what the mesmer could, better, and faster.
That meta started a year ago and was just shaken up now.
To add, TWO of the top competing mesmer’s also agreed that a thief could do what the mesmer did, better, and easier.
So I don’t know what meta you are talking about where the mesmer was in it and not overshadowed by another class. Maybe you meant when the game released?

Secondly,
From the first TOL ( or WTS I cant remember) There was a thread in the pvp forum that stated what class was taken over the others.
Mesmer wasn’t in the top 5 and I believe was under necro ( I will have to do some digging in the archives to see if I can find it again.)

Those also started roughly a year ago.

Mesmer hasn’t been “in” the meta for close to 2 years.
That changed a couple of weeks ago, and while a lot of people agree that some things need to be toned down
Like Confounding Suggestions
Blinding Dissapation
and Prismatic Understanding.

A lot of the other complaints are people that need to learn how to play.

Loxsus.3841:

Really it feels like they need to increase how durable everyone is. This fixes some of the PVP problems while also not affecting much in PVE (as that stuff hits harder than most players anyway)

Some classes can already be durable

See Guardian
Necro
Cele
Warrior

I think some classes need to have some things redesigned to be functional because some of there builds do not help with actual conquest

The damage increase across the board was a good thing, as it got rid of the pure cele/tank meta that dominated pvp for 2 years

Mesmers need to be nerfed heavily.
No discussion.

Darkness.9732:

Mesmers need to be nerfed heavily.
No discussion.

……I’m guessing you’re still upset about your ranger huh :P

Well first of all, I do not feel like in general pvp mesmer was completely unviable, maybe at top tier but almost nobody plays at that level.

Second of all, I myself have played mesmer quite alot, im ashamed of playing this profession in pvp and will refrain from doing so until they are nerfed one way or the other. The amount of engage/disengage, teleports/stealth/dmg and stuns are way over the top.

I’m sure its been states a million times already, but what the hell.

Is it a bad thing that mesmer can pick up almost any combination of traits and work nicely? Of course not. Why would anyone argue such an absurd thing? What IS the bad thing is the insta stun and stealth. If you go zerker, its only natural that your damage is amazingly high (hint : no one worth their salt in PvP is complaining about damage). What IS bad is all of the instant cast stun and the incredibly high stealth uptime followed by the high damage. Some have argued that thief does/did the exact same thing, but here’s the issue…..

Thieves are forced into melee range. This makes playing thief very tricky. This is why guardians generally destroy thieves. This is why one wrong move vs a warrior or necro counts as instant death. Mesmer though? Mesmers only counter was thief before the patch. Now? Mesmers don’t have to worry about that anymore because while they’ve been buffed, thieves have taken a smidge of nerfing as well. You have no idea how many times I’d stun break out of a mesmers stun>burst combo, wait for their sword2 to end and burst back only to be stunned as soon as they finish, have them stealth again, recharge their mantra and do it all over again. Its too much. Mesmer has decent direct damage mitigation (always has), decent nobility (always has), top tier burst (always has), but now has powerful single target CC coupled with stupid stealth.

If you basically want a summary of what the complaints are all about, its complaints on the following:

-Prismatic understanding.
-Confounding suggestions.
-Mantra of distraction.

Some would like to add power block, but I think that trait is fine in general. As you said, trait synergy has blown up for mesmers. If that’s the case, taking a hit with those two traits shouldn’t hurt you that much….right? Unless, of course, you recognize the fact that mesmer has, indeed, been pigeonholed into using these two lines for the best effect possible, and are afraid that there’s a genuine chance that anet would make it so that you couldn’t have your cake and eat it too.

Point one) Lots of players are not used to Mesmer’s being a viable and visible threat. Usually people mow down an enemy team THEN go to a Mesmer. Now Mesmer is a threat, now you have to fight us, and now you don’t know what to do because you spent all of the past year/year and a half thinking “pretty butterflies, guess I’ll smash em later”. I’m not surprised that there is such a large case of L2P (good lord I feel dirty saying that, but for once I think nothing else fits as well as that) going on. However, read on to point two before you go “oh I stopped reading because I read l2p and I gotta protect my pixel pride”.

Point two) Current iteration of Mesmer has tons of build options, and one or two strong builds based on taking what the class is specialized to do. Again, I am not surprised. If you weren’t able to guess what Mesmer was built to do (and believe me, I just noticed it last week- kind of epiphany style), Mesmer is specialized for LOCKDOWN. Nearly every weapon we use has a form of HARD cc (knockback, daze, pull, push, stun) OR a form of condition that you consciously have to play around (Poison, Torment, Confusion, Immobilize,Blind). The balance team made a decision to focus Mesmers into what they were made to do- Lock you DOWN. We don’t just go in full offense or full defense like people think, because if a Mesmer does they die. I should know- I’ve been gobbling up the FotM players like candy….good to be a Mesmer main. Back to topic, do some things need to re-balanced? Of course, this patch just arrived. It’s not hotfix worthy, because the patch JUST CAME OUT but its worthy that some things get bumped down. The items in question would of course be Harmonious Mantras (that heal is massive and spammable) and Ineptitude. Blinding Dissipation isn’t even the real problem, but its another of those “make players happy”. The problem trait is again Ineptitude. That’s the biggie. Every blind applies confusion. That one needs the ICD, not BD. Yes, BD is annoying. However, spammable and solely overpowered? Not even remotely. A blind that comes from the real Mesmer ONLY once, per shatter which should not be used lightly because the cooldowns are pretty high is absolutely nothing. The blind from not attacking scepter defense and getting confusion, the blind from torch stealth leading to confusion, the blind from a shatter skill leading to confusion, so on so forth.

Just my 2 cents.

Ok, I am D D Ele and I am pretty good at it these days, I even beat much more experienced pvpers in my Guild Disciples of OMEN, which is a top level WvVW guild. http://www.sanctumofrall.com/leaderboard/ yesterday I spent my 20 tomes of knowledge to finish off my mexsmer to 80. looked up some New builds, found the Mantra build loaded it up, and literally I was top in Spvp every game on a class I never play (I am usually top on my ELE as well) but still, I never even felt like i had to work to kill my enemies, the amount of damage at range, and even the Healing, Daze stunning, it was just SO KITTEN EASY I was shocked. All that on top have having an extra 4k health? LOL kitten is broken as Kitten. Move them down to the same HP bonus that thief and ele get for a start.

the most important thing though was, after 3 matches I was literally bored of playing it, because there was no challenge to it whatsoever. Went back to my ele and tried a D / F signet build , that was fun.

Amisto.6135:

Ok, I am D D Ele and I am pretty good at it these days, I even beat much more experienced pvpers in my Guild Disciples of OMEN, which is a top level WvVW guild. http://www.sanctumofrall.com/leaderboard/ yesterday I spent my 20 tomes of knowledge to finish off my mexsmer to 80. looked up some New builds, found the Mantra build loaded it up, and literally I was top in Spvp every game on a class I never play (I am usually top on my ELE as well) but still, I never even felt like i had to work to kill my enemies, the amount of damage at range, and even the Healing, Daze stunning, it was just SO KITTEN EASY I was shocked. All that on top have having an extra 4k health? LOL kitten is broken as Kitten. Move them down to the same HP bonus that thief and ele get for a start.

the most important thing though was, after 3 matches I was literally bored of playing it, because there was no challenge to it whatsoever. Went back to my ele and tried a D / F signet build , that was fun.

Couple of puzzling questions.

• Why did you need to spend tomes to 80 a Mesmer? Everything is unlocked in sPvP at any level.
• Why are you comparing D/D Celestial Ele to a Mantra Mesmer? One is a hybrid, another is a burst lockdown.
• Did you know that score is irrelevant to gameplay? A bunker could have the lowest score yet sometimes the highest contribution to fights.
• Why the need to mention your WvW guild? Unless you mean that it’s powerful in WvW but this a sPvP discussion.

If mesmer is specialized to lock single targets down and burst, then remove all of their stealth. They can’t have it all.

Refrain from trolling
Try to give actual feedback

~ Thank You

It isn’t a troll. I’ve already dropped my detailed opinion.

Certainly wasn’t talking to you
I’m talking to the people who are piously defending Mantra Memser
Despite the obvious superiority it has over every other archetype