Guild Wars 2

I know that this build is somewhat an offender.

But I have a question for you people.

“Why do you make a Ventari rev viable? Maybe you could just rotate and make it useless?”

IF you are intentionally going on to contest the point where the rev is, you are making that build viable. Just rotate to the other points and take it. The rev will just sit on their node and be useless.

PS: Yes I do agree that the KB is rather annoying because it’s so spammable.

Gonna copy-paste what I said about this topic in another thread, as it seems applicable here:

This whole “leave the ventari rev on his point and turn the fight for the other 2 points in a 5v4” argument never made sense to me. It didn’t make sense back when turret engi was a thing and it still doesn’t make sense now.

Sure, if a ventari rev bunks a point and never leaves it, and you decide to just ignore that point, you indeed effectively turn the struggle for the other 2 points in a 5v4, fair enough, I get that. But in the meantime the team with the ventari rev always has 1 point capped as long as the ventari rev stays on that point and your team keeps ignoring that point. So while the fight for the other 2 points is indeed a 5v4, the enemy has a guaranteed point capped and only has to cap 1 more point to win the match. That’s a huge advantage. Especially if the ventari rev gets to bunk down on mid and even more so if his team also has a thief for quick and easy backcaps.

Out-rotating a ventari rev isn’t a simple matter of “ignore the point with the ventari rev on it and focus the other 2 points”. You have to pull off some awesome rotations and really pull off some amazing play to be able to beat such a scenario. Yes, you have one more person to rotate on those two points than the enemy team, but the enemy team only has to focus one of those two points, while you have to make sure you get both.

So if for example red team manages to plant a ventari rev on mid and blue team decides to ignore mid, that’s a huge benefit for red and it will make winning the match a whole lot easier for them.

LucosTheDutch.4819:

Gonna copy-paste what I said about this topic in another thread, as it seems applicable here:

This whole “leave the ventari rev on his point and turn the fight for the other 2 points in a 5v4” argument never made sense to me. It didn’t make sense back when turret engi was a thing and it still doesn’t make sense now.

Sure, if a ventari rev bunks a point and never leaves it, and you decide to just ignore that point, you indeed effectively turn the struggle for the other 2 points in a 5v4, fair enough, I get that. But in the meantime the team with the ventari rev always has 1 point capped as long as the ventari rev stays on that point and your team keeps ignoring that point. So while the fight for the other 2 points is indeed a 5v4, the enemy has a guaranteed point capped and only has to cap 1 more point to win the match. That’s a huge advantage. Especially if the ventari rev gets to bunk down on mid and even more so if the enemy also has a thief for quick and easy backcaps.

Out-rotating a ventari rev isn’t a simple matter of “ignore the point with the ventari rev on it and focus the other 2 points”. You have to pull off some awesome rotations and really pull off some amazing play to be able to beat such a scenario. Yes, you have one more person to rotate on those two points than the enemy team, but the enemy team only has to focus one of those two points, while you have to make sure you get both.

So if for example red team manages to plant a ventari rev on mid and blue team decides to ignore mid, that’s a huge benefit for red and it will make winning the match a whole lot easier for them.

You are missing one important thing though. It’s not even the points. Being on a 5v4 will make teamfights turn to your side = meaning you get more points per kill. That’s +5 point every kill you make. It doesn’t even matter if they have that 1 cap all game.

Because Ventari rev gives a disproportionate amount of power for the amount of skill invested.

StickerHappy.8052:

LucosTheDutch.4819:

Gonna copy-paste what I said about this topic in another thread, as it seems applicable here:

This whole “leave the ventari rev on his point and turn the fight for the other 2 points in a 5v4” argument never made sense to me. It didn’t make sense back when turret engi was a thing and it still doesn’t make sense now.

Sure, if a ventari rev bunks a point and never leaves it, and you decide to just ignore that point, you indeed effectively turn the struggle for the other 2 points in a 5v4, fair enough, I get that. But in the meantime the team with the ventari rev always has 1 point capped as long as the ventari rev stays on that point and your team keeps ignoring that point. So while the fight for the other 2 points is indeed a 5v4, the enemy has a guaranteed point capped and only has to cap 1 more point to win the match. That’s a huge advantage. Especially if the ventari rev gets to bunk down on mid and even more so if the enemy also has a thief for quick and easy backcaps.

Out-rotating a ventari rev isn’t a simple matter of “ignore the point with the ventari rev on it and focus the other 2 points”. You have to pull off some awesome rotations and really pull off some amazing play to be able to beat such a scenario. Yes, you have one more person to rotate on those two points than the enemy team, but the enemy team only has to focus one of those two points, while you have to make sure you get both.

So if for example red team manages to plant a ventari rev on mid and blue team decides to ignore mid, that’s a huge benefit for red and it will make winning the match a whole lot easier for them.

You are missing one important thing though. It’s not even the points. Being on a 5v4 will make teamfights turn to your side = meaning you get more points per kill. That’s +5 point every kill you make. It doesn’t even matter if they have that 1 cap all game.

Irrelevant. Unless your team kills an enemy player every 5 seconds on average (which I find highly unlikely) that’s not going to make a difference.

Capping points is what wins you the match, not killing players. Those +5’s from a kill are only going to matter as a tie-breaker when both teams are relatively evenly matched in terms of getting points capped, or close to the end of a match when you just need those few extra points to get to 500 before the enemy does. But those +5’s per kill are not going to counter-balance a ventari rev sitting on a point the entire match.

LucosTheDutch.4819:

StickerHappy.8052:

LucosTheDutch.4819:

Gonna copy-paste what I said about this topic in another thread, as it seems applicable here:

This whole “leave the ventari rev on his point and turn the fight for the other 2 points in a 5v4” argument never made sense to me. It didn’t make sense back when turret engi was a thing and it still doesn’t make sense now.

Sure, if a ventari rev bunks a point and never leaves it, and you decide to just ignore that point, you indeed effectively turn the struggle for the other 2 points in a 5v4, fair enough, I get that. But in the meantime the team with the ventari rev always has 1 point capped as long as the ventari rev stays on that point and your team keeps ignoring that point. So while the fight for the other 2 points is indeed a 5v4, the enemy has a guaranteed point capped and only has to cap 1 more point to win the match. That’s a huge advantage. Especially if the ventari rev gets to bunk down on mid and even more so if the enemy also has a thief for quick and easy backcaps.

Out-rotating a ventari rev isn’t a simple matter of “ignore the point with the ventari rev on it and focus the other 2 points”. You have to pull off some awesome rotations and really pull off some amazing play to be able to beat such a scenario. Yes, you have one more person to rotate on those two points than the enemy team, but the enemy team only has to focus one of those two points, while you have to make sure you get both.

So if for example red team manages to plant a ventari rev on mid and blue team decides to ignore mid, that’s a huge benefit for red and it will make winning the match a whole lot easier for them.

You are missing one important thing though. It’s not even the points. Being on a 5v4 will make teamfights turn to your side = meaning you get more points per kill. That’s +5 point every kill you make. It doesn’t even matter if they have that 1 cap all game.

Irrelevant. Unless your team kills an enemy player every 5 seconds on average (which I find highly unlikely) that’s not going to make a difference.

Capping points is what wins you the match, not killing players. Those +5’s from a kill are only going to matter as a tie-breaker when both teams are relatively evenly matched in terms of getting points capped, or close to the end of a match when you just need those few extra points to get to 500 before the enemy does. But those +5’s per kill are not going to counter-balance a ventari rev sitting on a point the entire match.

This is not true. Capping gets points yea but so does kills. That’s why spawn camping is a thing.

Well look at it this way, When you win team fights = you get the caps. So whats the problem here?

You get both WINNING TEAM FIGHTS WILL GET YOU THE CAP ON A 5v4, if not something is wrong with your team

If you have a mobile class, it’s even better in your favor.

StickerHappy.8052:

LucosTheDutch.4819:

StickerHappy.8052:

LucosTheDutch.4819:

Gonna copy-paste what I said about this topic in another thread, as it seems applicable here:

This whole “leave the ventari rev on his point and turn the fight for the other 2 points in a 5v4” argument never made sense to me. It didn’t make sense back when turret engi was a thing and it still doesn’t make sense now.

Sure, if a ventari rev bunks a point and never leaves it, and you decide to just ignore that point, you indeed effectively turn the struggle for the other 2 points in a 5v4, fair enough, I get that. But in the meantime the team with the ventari rev always has 1 point capped as long as the ventari rev stays on that point and your team keeps ignoring that point. So while the fight for the other 2 points is indeed a 5v4, the enemy has a guaranteed point capped and only has to cap 1 more point to win the match. That’s a huge advantage. Especially if the ventari rev gets to bunk down on mid and even more so if the enemy also has a thief for quick and easy backcaps.

Out-rotating a ventari rev isn’t a simple matter of “ignore the point with the ventari rev on it and focus the other 2 points”. You have to pull off some awesome rotations and really pull off some amazing play to be able to beat such a scenario. Yes, you have one more person to rotate on those two points than the enemy team, but the enemy team only has to focus one of those two points, while you have to make sure you get both.

So if for example red team manages to plant a ventari rev on mid and blue team decides to ignore mid, that’s a huge benefit for red and it will make winning the match a whole lot easier for them.

You are missing one important thing though. It’s not even the points. Being on a 5v4 will make teamfights turn to your side = meaning you get more points per kill. That’s +5 point every kill you make. It doesn’t even matter if they have that 1 cap all game.

Irrelevant. Unless your team kills an enemy player every 5 seconds on average (which I find highly unlikely) that’s not going to make a difference.

Capping points is what wins you the match, not killing players. Those +5’s from a kill are only going to matter as a tie-breaker when both teams are relatively evenly matched in terms of getting points capped, or close to the end of a match when you just need those few extra points to get to 500 before the enemy does. But those +5’s per kill are not going to counter-balance a ventari rev sitting on a point the entire match.

This is not true. Capping gets points yea but so does kills. That’s why spawn camping is a thing.

Well look at it this way, When you win team fights = you get the caps. So whats the problem here?

It is true. I just explained that you need to kill a player every 5 seconds on average to counter-balance a constantly capped point, which gives you 1 point every second.

Spawn camping is impossible in GW2 and only happens in bronze/silver where people are too stupid to realize their spawn base has 2 different exists instead of just 1.

Unless you are up against clueless noobs, spawn camping is never going to happen.

Winning a teamfight gets you the point (most of the time) yes, 1 point. You need 2. While the enemy only needs 1 because they already have 1 point capped by their ventari rev.

So, hypothetical scenario: The enemy ventari rev is bunking mid. And The enemy sends the rest of their players to your home, while they already capped their home (your far). You farm all 4 enemy players at home and cap that point. Now you also need far. You go far and farm the 4 enemy players again and cap that point also. Meanwhile you see your home being decapped. Crap! You need home as well! So you run back, and the cycle repeats and the enemy will win, unless you keep someone on your home point to protect it from decaps, but then the fight at far is no longer a 5v4 now is it?

Do you see the problem now or do I need to explain it even further?

I have fought these revs on my pistol/dagger Condi thief, and they have never been an issue. Are there builds that counter it with relative ease? Do I just happen to play one that does?

LucosTheDutch.4819:

StickerHappy.8052:

LucosTheDutch.4819:

StickerHappy.8052:

LucosTheDutch.4819:

Gonna copy-paste what I said about this topic in another thread, as it seems applicable here:

This whole “leave the ventari rev on his point and turn the fight for the other 2 points in a 5v4” argument never made sense to me. It didn’t make sense back when turret engi was a thing and it still doesn’t make sense now.

Sure, if a ventari rev bunks a point and never leaves it, and you decide to just ignore that point, you indeed effectively turn the struggle for the other 2 points in a 5v4, fair enough, I get that. But in the meantime the team with the ventari rev always has 1 point capped as long as the ventari rev stays on that point and your team keeps ignoring that point. So while the fight for the other 2 points is indeed a 5v4, the enemy has a guaranteed point capped and only has to cap 1 more point to win the match. That’s a huge advantage. Especially if the ventari rev gets to bunk down on mid and even more so if the enemy also has a thief for quick and easy backcaps.

Out-rotating a ventari rev isn’t a simple matter of “ignore the point with the ventari rev on it and focus the other 2 points”. You have to pull off some awesome rotations and really pull off some amazing play to be able to beat such a scenario. Yes, you have one more person to rotate on those two points than the enemy team, but the enemy team only has to focus one of those two points, while you have to make sure you get both.

So if for example red team manages to plant a ventari rev on mid and blue team decides to ignore mid, that’s a huge benefit for red and it will make winning the match a whole lot easier for them.

You are missing one important thing though. It’s not even the points. Being on a 5v4 will make teamfights turn to your side = meaning you get more points per kill. That’s +5 point every kill you make. It doesn’t even matter if they have that 1 cap all game.

Irrelevant. Unless your team kills an enemy player every 5 seconds on average (which I find highly unlikely) that’s not going to make a difference.

Capping points is what wins you the match, not killing players. Those +5’s from a kill are only going to matter as a tie-breaker when both teams are relatively evenly matched in terms of getting points capped, or close to the end of a match when you just need those few extra points to get to 500 before the enemy does. But those +5’s per kill are not going to counter-balance a ventari rev sitting on a point the entire match.

This is not true. Capping gets points yea but so does kills. That’s why spawn camping is a thing.

Well look at it this way, When you win team fights = you get the caps. So whats the problem here?

It is true. I just explained that you need to kill a player every 5 seconds on average to counter-balance a constantly capped point, which gives you 1 point every second.

Spawn camping is impossible in GW2 and only happens in bronze/silver where people are too stupid to realize their spawn base has 2 different exists instead of just 1.

Unless you are up against clueless noobs, spawn camping is never going to happen.

Winning a teamfight gets you the point (most of the time) yes, 1 point. You need 2. While the enemy only needs 1 because they already have 1 point capped by their ventari rev.

So, hypothetical scenario: The enemy ventari rev is bunking mid. And The enemy sends the rest of their players to your home, while they already capped their home (your far). You farm all 4 enemy players at home and cap that point. Now you also need far. You go far and farm the 4 enemy players again and cap that point also. Meanwhile you see your home being decapped. Crap! You need home as well! So you run back, and the cycle repeats and the enemy will win, unless you keep someone on your home point to protect it from decaps, but then the fight at far is no longer a 5v4 now is it?

Do you see the problem now or do I need to explain it even further?

Why would you leave your home open then? Maybe then let someone stay there.

So if someone was really going to decap it, then its 1v1 on a node.
Then you need the other node right? This will be a 3v3 then. Even fight. Because (1) The rev is bunking mid. (2) Someone is gonna decap home which has a 1v1.

Do you see now what’s the problem?

Another thing. Matchups. Which is important in every teamfight.

I am not defending the build or rev itself.

Let’s just face it, there are a lot of players who have 0 MAP AWARENESS EVEN IN PLAT OR GOLD <—— This right here is the main problem in every PvP match

StickerHappy.8052:

LucosTheDutch.4819:

StickerHappy.8052:

LucosTheDutch.4819:

StickerHappy.8052:

LucosTheDutch.4819:

Gonna copy-paste what I said about this topic in another thread, as it seems applicable here:

This whole “leave the ventari rev on his point and turn the fight for the other 2 points in a 5v4” argument never made sense to me. It didn’t make sense back when turret engi was a thing and it still doesn’t make sense now.

Sure, if a ventari rev bunks a point and never leaves it, and you decide to just ignore that point, you indeed effectively turn the struggle for the other 2 points in a 5v4, fair enough, I get that. But in the meantime the team with the ventari rev always has 1 point capped as long as the ventari rev stays on that point and your team keeps ignoring that point. So while the fight for the other 2 points is indeed a 5v4, the enemy has a guaranteed point capped and only has to cap 1 more point to win the match. That’s a huge advantage. Especially if the ventari rev gets to bunk down on mid and even more so if the enemy also has a thief for quick and easy backcaps.

Out-rotating a ventari rev isn’t a simple matter of “ignore the point with the ventari rev on it and focus the other 2 points”. You have to pull off some awesome rotations and really pull off some amazing play to be able to beat such a scenario. Yes, you have one more person to rotate on those two points than the enemy team, but the enemy team only has to focus one of those two points, while you have to make sure you get both.

So if for example red team manages to plant a ventari rev on mid and blue team decides to ignore mid, that’s a huge benefit for red and it will make winning the match a whole lot easier for them.

You are missing one important thing though. It’s not even the points. Being on a 5v4 will make teamfights turn to your side = meaning you get more points per kill. That’s +5 point every kill you make. It doesn’t even matter if they have that 1 cap all game.

Irrelevant. Unless your team kills an enemy player every 5 seconds on average (which I find highly unlikely) that’s not going to make a difference.

Capping points is what wins you the match, not killing players. Those +5’s from a kill are only going to matter as a tie-breaker when both teams are relatively evenly matched in terms of getting points capped, or close to the end of a match when you just need those few extra points to get to 500 before the enemy does. But those +5’s per kill are not going to counter-balance a ventari rev sitting on a point the entire match.

This is not true. Capping gets points yea but so does kills. That’s why spawn camping is a thing.

Well look at it this way, When you win team fights = you get the caps. So whats the problem here?

It is true. I just explained that you need to kill a player every 5 seconds on average to counter-balance a constantly capped point, which gives you 1 point every second.

Spawn camping is impossible in GW2 and only happens in bronze/silver where people are too stupid to realize their spawn base has 2 different exists instead of just 1.

Unless you are up against clueless noobs, spawn camping is never going to happen.

Winning a teamfight gets you the point (most of the time) yes, 1 point. You need 2. While the enemy only needs 1 because they already have 1 point capped by their ventari rev.

So, hypothetical scenario: The enemy ventari rev is bunking mid. And The enemy sends the rest of their players to your home, while they already capped their home (your far). You farm all 4 enemy players at home and cap that point. Now you also need far. You go far and farm the 4 enemy players again and cap that point also. Meanwhile you see your home being decapped. Crap! You need home as well! So you run back, and the cycle repeats and the enemy will win, unless you keep someone on your home point to protect it from decaps, but then the fight at far is no longer a 5v4 now is it?

Do you see the problem now or do I need to explain it even further?

Why would you leave your home open then? Maybe then let someone stay there.

So if someone was really going to decap it, then its 1v1 on a node.
Then you need the other node right? This will be a 3v3 then. Even fight. Because (1) The rev is bunking mid. (2) Someone is gonna decap home which has a 1v1.

Do you see now what’s the problem?

Another thing. Matchups. Which is important in every teamfight.

Yes, you could keep someone at home to protect it and you should, especially if the enemy has a thief, but since the enemy has a guaranteed cap (assuming you ignore mid with the ventari rev on it, which is the strategy you suggested) they only need to focus 1 of the other 2 points. Now if they are dumb and focus the point where most of you guys are, then yes, it will be an even fight/match. But if they are smart and always zerg the point with the least amount of you guys on it, they’ll easily snowball the match into a win for them, thanks to the ventari rev camping mid and thanks to your decision to ignore him.

StickerHappy.8052:

I am not defending the build or rev itself.

Let’s just face it, there are a lot of players who have 0 MAP AWARENESS EVEN IN PLAT OR GOLD <—— This right here is the main problem in every PvP match

Agreed there.

And I would count a camping ventari rev among those players with zero awareness.

I played ventari rev and I only camp mid if I feel confident my team is smart enough to properly rotate. If they don’t, I’ll start rotating myself. You see, that’s another thing the ventari rev has: mobility. It can stack perma swiftness on himself and quickly run from point to point, faster than most other classes.

So if I bunk mid on my ventari rev and I notice that the enemy started to ignore mid, I’ll surprise them by going far (if they’re harassing our home) or backcapping home (if the fight is at far).

A ventari rev in the hands of a smart platinum player is OP and stupidly broke, at least in my opinion.

Imo, the best start to deal with a ventari rev is not to ignore him, but to send 2 capable condi players at him with access to poison, chill and torment (and lots of it, because the rev can cleanse condis quickly). Then quickly unload all your condi burst at him and watch him die. Works exceptionally well if you have 2 reapers or a reaper and a condi rev together.

I’ve also been killed on my ventari rev by a necro + thief duo a couple of times, they manage to burst me down quickly as well.

But if you have 2 necros or 1 necro + 1 condi rev or 1 necro + 1 thief on your team to counter the enemy ventari rev, then you already start with a huge disadvantage.

It’s absolutely stupid that you need multiple specific classes/builds to counter 1 silly braindead ventari rev build.

It’s also stupid and silly how a ventari rev can outplay most skilled people by only spamming 6 and 0. But then again, those kinds of builds aren’t new to GW2.

Imo all these dumb spam builds need a huge nerf simply for the fact that they’re dumb spam builds. A dumb spam build should never get you into platinum, never mind in the top 250.

let’s say ventari goes to your home, so you going to ignore it and play far mid?
then they have spawn advantage, if then ventari goes to cap mid, you are going to go back to cap home? then you are going to lose far 4v4 because they have spawn advantage. if you don’t cap home and win far, they will have mid and home..not to mention if enemy team has portal. it will be even harder to out rotate, just because you decide to ignore rev

but imo biggest problem is condi thief, if condi thief doesnt exist, we can run power build and burst down ventari rev.

I’ve been having a think. centaur stance is really energy intensive, and regular thief kills rev if he’s in dragon stance.

so I figure since the main issue with rev is the knock back, thief should beat bunk rev 1v1. it’s got super high damage input with dp, vault spam or either dd or sd condi. and it has enough evades to dodge all cc. the warm up for the knock back is super obvious. so that’s easy to dodge.
and bunk revs damage is so pitiful thief can actually tank some of it.

like that’s just theory, I don’t play thief myself. but it seems like it should counter bunk rev pretty dang hard.

someone should give it a go. sind or someone actually good.

personally, my vipers warrior eats it alive.

StickerHappy.8052:

IF you are intentionally going on to contest the point where the rev is, you are making that build viable. Just rotate to the other points and take it. The rev will just sit on their node and be useless.

Assuming this is silver and the ventari rev will just afk on it then sure, this works.

A good ventari rev never stops moving. They decap, look at the minimap, and just go to the next enemy point then neutralize it in no time.

It’s like old mercy rez in overwatch.. your team uses big CDs to win a fight and outplays the enemy, then mercy presses Q and undoes everything. Ventari is the same: you win the fight that let’s say took 1-2 minutes and several elites, then the rev comes in presses the elite 3 times and bam it’s all gone.

If the counterplay is to run the kitten away when you see it and make 3 people abandon a point because this guy arrived then yes I’d say it’s broken.

choovanski.5462:

I’ve been having a think. centaur stance is really energy intensive, and regular thief kills rev if he’s in dragon stance.

I played ventari rev and thief can be dangerous if he +1s, but if you survive the initial burst it’ll never kill you not even in 2v1, and in 1v1 not a chance. Rev can heal 15k every 5 seconds while cleansing conditions, blinding and CCing the thief (and having some projectile hate field too). There is no way it’ll work out.

I feel like people are looking at this incorrectly, concerning the discussion. A Ventari Rev is not a usual meta archetype. It is not DPS, Peel +1, or even Bunker/Support in the same way that a Tempest is. Ventari Rev is something I would label as Traffic Control. It does a few things that are important to note before a discussion as to if it is OP or not can take place:

• It has the ultimate control skill. A no animation AoE knockback CC, which occurs frequently and is able to easily decap a node 1v1, 1v2 or even 1v3 in some cases. This ultimate control skill if used wisely, is also better damage mitigation than a normal support with heals. The frequent knockbacks can halt full team bursting/cleaving/stomping, very easily.
• A good Ventari Rev is unkillable 1v1 amongst meta builds. The only way you are going to down a good Ventari in 1v1 is with some strange build designed completely around condi DPS, such as a full trap shortbow Druid wearing Deadshot or something. It is possible to kill it 1v1 but the build used to do it will be useless against other metas. Essentially, Ventari Rev has no practical class counters in the same way that every other class/build has. So we are talking about a build that can inevitably hold a node 1v1, in every match up that it is against. Even if he is losing to some custom build designed to kill the Ventari, he sure as hell can hold long enough for a plus and if he doesn’t get it, was the time invested by the custom build to kill the Ventari on the Ventari’s color even worth it?
• You can kill it fairly easily 2v1 but the time invested to do this usually isn’t worth it while you’re team is getting 3v4d. This leads to situations where someone has to peel off the Ventari 2v1 to assist in holding/winning nodes and team fights. Since it is rare that a build can 1v1 kill a Ventari, the remaining player will almost always be forced to leave the fight as well. This results in enormously wasted time. If the game is actually balanced, there is no time to leave your team in 3v4s because it generally results in losing the other two nodes while you and your partner were trying to 2v1 a Ventari on the Ventari’s color. It’s just a bad idea. So then players figure out to avoid the Ventari.
• Avoiding the Ventari and trying to 5v4 around him on the other two nodes sounds like a great idea. But the truth is that a good player on the Ventari isn’t going to setup a tent and camp his home point all game. The Ventari will peel and go to other nodes, resulting in the same above two situations. If the match is balanced, players realize they aren’t going to win a team fight on the node against the present Ventari. Again, it forces players to peel off and go elsewhere. The Ventari wins the node again. Now consider his team isn’t stupid and they know to support play the Ventari’s presence so when he shows up to mid, they leave 1 person to support him and the other 3 peel to defend the sides. Ignoring the Ventari and playing around him isn’t as easy as it sounds when the Ventari is aware of how to position his presence. This is especially full of kitten when he duos with a good Chronomancer and they know how to play portal entre.
• At advanced levels, the Ventari recognizes that he can easily redirect and control the traffic of the enemy team. This is something sort of new really. No other bunker/support role is quite as effective at this as a Ventari Rev and this is really what makes it OP. It’s presence alone, creates forced rotations for the enemy team. A Bunker Druid can 1v2 a node against competent players, sure. But it has to peel around to survive, sometimes off point, and it must stealth at times to survive, which eventually can lose a decap. The same sorts of limitations apply to Scrappers/Tempests. They may toss more heal/condi cleanse than the Ventari but these other bunker/supports have no where near the capability to plainly stop a burst before it even happens, against multiple opponents mind you, and all the while easily the node while doing it.

The game of conquest is about decapping and holding nodes. Honestly if you could stack 5 Ventari Revs on a team and have 2 sit home, 2 sit mid and 1 rotate to + where needed, how the hell would you ever decap those nodes to get 2 nodes, to be able to win a game? They would never need to deal any DPS to your team. They would simply bully you off point with CCs and hold the nodes, all game. Even if you could kill one of them every once in awhile, you wouldn’t kill them quickly enough to ever be able to take those nodes.

In the end, the Ventari Rev has too high of a floor and too high of a ceiling. It is too easy for a subpar player to begin using, while he dodges rolls for stability proc and pushes everyone off point. And it is too rewarding for experienced players to abuse it’s over tweaked functions for the purpose of conquest. I mean the build almost plays itself “show up to a node, win that node cause Ventari”.

The AoE CC needs a longer cast activation and they need to add a tell of animation of the cast. Right now in its current state, that AoE CC is full of kitten ^^

lighter.2708:

let’s say ventari goes to your home, so you going to ignore it and play far mid?
then they have spawn advantage, if then ventari goes to cap mid, you are going to go back to cap home? then you are going to lose far 4v4 because they have spawn advantage. if you don’t cap home and win far, they will have mid and home..not to mention if enemy team has portal. it will be even harder to out rotate, just because you decide to ignore rev

but imo biggest problem is condi thief, if condi thief doesnt exist, we can run power build and burst down ventari rev.

The trick to negate spawn disadvantage is to kill the one who can ress and let the others bleeding out.

StickerHappy.8052:

I know that this build is somewhat an offender.

But I have a question for you people.

“Why do you make a Ventari rev viable? Maybe you could just rotate and make it useless?”

IF you are intentionally going on to contest the point where the rev is, you are making that build viable. Just rotate to the other points and take it. The rev will just sit on their node and be useless.

PS: Yes I do agree that the KB is rather annoying because it’s so spammable.

As a ventari rev main, I agree with OP. Its very disheartening when I put in the work and effort to win the node in a 1v1 just to have them rotate off and 5v4 my team. Until ANET decides to buff ventari rev and allow them to rotate to different nodes, I don’t see it being a very viable build. Probably just gonna reroll bunker guard.

BrahChick.8059:

StickerHappy.8052:

I know that this build is somewhat an offender.

But I have a question for you people.

“Why do you make a Ventari rev viable? Maybe you could just rotate and make it useless?”

IF you are intentionally going on to contest the point where the rev is, you are making that build viable. Just rotate to the other points and take it. The rev will just sit on their node and be useless.

PS: Yes I do agree that the KB is rather annoying because it’s so spammable.

As a ventari rev main, I agree with OP. Its very disheartening when I put in the work and effort to win the node in a 1v1 just to have them rotate off and 5v4 my team. Until ANET decides to buff ventari rev and allow them to rotate to different nodes, I don’t see it being a very viable build. Probably just gonna reroll bunker guard.

Awesome post. I’m afraid your sarcasm is going to be lost on most people though.

But yeah, your post basically sums up why “just rotate around the point the ventari rev is on” makes no sense.

For me the main questions to ask when considering if something needs a nerf are:
1.) Is it fun to play (i.e. what is the skill floor and ceiling)?
2.) Is it fun to play against (i.e. is there reasonable counterplay)?
3.) And most importantly, is it balanced? (i.e Are the abilities in question over or under-tuned compared to other classes?)

For Knockback spam Ventari Rev:

1.) Skill floor and ceiling: easy to use at low skill, overly effective at high skill… you need little knowledge of the things most classes have to know since you don’t care about actually winning duels/teamfights, you just spam knockback until the point is capped. Add a small amount of skill in rotating to be as frustrating for the enemy team as possible.

2.) Extremely unfun to play against… there is little counterplay since no class has stability uptime that can compete with knockback every 3-4 seconds, and even blinds/blocks/evades usually have too high of cooldowns to keep on the point, much less have a chance of winning a duel and killing the rev or even forcing it off the point.

3.) In terms of winrate, I have less data to work with. The information I do have though is in comparing it to other similar builds. Most other bunker specs were nerfed to avoid them being able to hold 1v2+ too easily after sigil nerfs lowered damage output, this should be tuned to similar levels. The obvious offender is that it’s KB cooldown is highly overtuned compared to CC options on other classes… the vast majority of knockbacks/launches have a cooldown of 15 s or greater for comparison and most of those are single target, not AoE. The reason being overwhelming amounts of CC make the game no fun because you don’t get to play, you just get bounced around endlessly. Nerf the KB cooldown to at least 10-15 s and it’s still a decent decap/bunker build, but not nearly as toxic. If it’s no longer viable without KB spam, give it more damage or healing to compensate, but there is no good reason it should get to break the rules when it comes to reasonable limits on AoE CC compared to other classes.

So are you arguing that it’s fine because opposing teams should simply avoid facing the Venturi rev and fight elsewhere?

its not really all that but its similar to decap engi… that thing got nerf, but not sure what balnce team smoking and just transfer it to rev.

Trevor Boyer.6524:

I feel like people are looking at this incorrectly, concerning the discussion. A Ventari Rev is not a usual meta archetype. It is not DPS, Peel +1, or even Bunker/Support in the same way that a Tempest is. Ventari Rev is something I would label as Traffic Control. It does a few things that are important to note before a discussion as to if it is OP or not can take place:

• It has the ultimate control skill. A no animation AoE knockback CC, which occurs frequently and is able to easily decap a node 1v1, 1v2 or even 1v3 in some cases. This ultimate control skill if used wisely, is also better damage mitigation than a normal support with heals. The frequent knockbacks can halt full team bursting/cleaving/stomping, very easily.
• A good Ventari Rev is unkillable 1v1 amongst meta builds. The only way you are going to down a good Ventari in 1v1 is with some strange build designed completely around condi DPS, such as a full trap shortbow Druid wearing Deadshot or something. It is possible to kill it 1v1 but the build used to do it will be useless against other metas. Essentially, Ventari Rev has no practical class counters in the same way that every other class/build has. So we are talking about a build that can inevitably hold a node 1v1, in every match up that it is against. Even if he is losing to some custom build designed to kill the Ventari, he sure as hell can hold long enough for a plus and if he doesn’t get it, was the time invested by the custom build to kill the Ventari on the Ventari’s color even worth it?
• You can kill it fairly easily 2v1 but the time invested to do this usually isn’t worth it while you’re team is getting 3v4d. This leads to situations where someone has to peel off the Ventari 2v1 to assist in holding/winning nodes and team fights. Since it is rare that a build can 1v1 kill a Ventari, the remaining player will almost always be forced to leave the fight as well. This results in enormously wasted time. If the game is actually balanced, there is no time to leave your team in 3v4s because it generally results in losing the other two nodes while you and your partner were trying to 2v1 a Ventari on the Ventari’s color. It’s just a bad idea. So then players figure out to avoid the Ventari.
• Avoiding the Ventari and trying to 5v4 around him on the other two nodes sounds like a great idea. But the truth is that a good player on the Ventari isn’t going to setup a tent and camp his home point all game. The Ventari will peel and go to other nodes, resulting in the same above two situations. If the match is balanced, players realize they aren’t going to win a team fight on the node against the present Ventari. Again, it forces players to peel off and go elsewhere. The Ventari wins the node again. Now consider his team isn’t stupid and they know to support play the Ventari’s presence so when he shows up to mid, they leave 1 person to support him and the other 3 peel to defend the sides. Ignoring the Ventari and playing around him isn’t as easy as it sounds when the Ventari is aware of how to position his presence. This is especially full of kitten when he duos with a good Chronomancer and they know how to play portal entre.
• At advanced levels, the Ventari recognizes that he can easily redirect and control the traffic of the enemy team. This is something sort of new really. No other bunker/support role is quite as effective at this as a Ventari Rev and this is really what makes it OP. It’s presence alone, creates forced rotations for the enemy team. A Bunker Druid can 1v2 a node against competent players, sure. But it has to peel around to survive, sometimes off point, and it must stealth at times to survive, which eventually can lose a decap. The same sorts of limitations apply to Scrappers/Tempests. They may toss more heal/condi cleanse than the Ventari but these other bunker/supports have no where near the capability to plainly stop a burst before it even happens, against multiple opponents mind you, and all the while easily the node while doing it.

The game of conquest is about decapping and holding nodes. Honestly if you could stack 5 Ventari Revs on a team and have 2 sit home, 2 sit mid and 1 rotate to + where needed, how the hell would you ever decap those nodes to get 2 nodes, to be able to win a game? They would never need to deal any DPS to your team. They would simply bully you off point with CCs and hold the nodes, all game. Even if you could kill one of them every once in awhile, you wouldn’t kill them quickly enough to ever be able to take those nodes.

In the end, the Ventari Rev has too high of a floor and too high of a ceiling. It is too easy for a subpar player to begin using, while he dodges rolls for stability proc and pushes everyone off point. And it is too rewarding for experienced players to abuse it’s over tweaked functions for the purpose of conquest. I mean the build almost plays itself “show up to a node, win that node cause Ventari”.

*The AoE CC needs a longer cast activation and they need to add a tell of animation of the cast. Right now in its current state, that AoE CC is full of kitten *^^

Uhmm the AoE knocback has an Animation….. large vines shoot out of the Ground strap the tablet and pulls the tablet to the ground causing the explosion, this animation takes 2 secs from start to finish…….. just saying and I don’t play the build.

The build also dies to being focused so if a team actually rotates the player does quite easily in teamfights, but I understand this is Solo queue players expect only 1 person to manage the side nodes while everyone else feeds mid….

This just highlights how a lot of players just don’t know how to fight the build or are familiar with it.

The only reason why Ventari rev is effective is because of pugs wasting too much time to kill it 2v1 or try to 1v1 it on the Ventari revs node. Ventari rev already has good sustain from the tablet and from all the passives in retribution traitline aka stab on evade and damage reduction along with the fact they can spam dodges and blocks with staff and sword shield. All they need to do is put an icd on tablet elite and maybe the blind on heal skill. No class/spec should ever have the ability to never die 1v1 without giving up node. Specs like Ventari rev and condi thief are builds that are unhealthy for the game.

From a ranked q perspective btw since it’s unorganized

literally just cc the rev and he will melt away. I play power rev now because a lot of people have been taking less stability and blocks in favor of cleanses and i just roll in there with some staff 5 and ventari rev is very succeptable to this.

It’s Turret/Decap engi all over again, but with more mobility, support, and sustain.

As others have said, yeah, a bad ANYTHING will afk on a point. It doesn’t really matter what’s sitting on that point, generally, if you’re pushing into a 1v1 on a node you don’t own, you would have been more effective being a +1 elsewhere and then rotating accordingly.

Ventari rev is a huge issue because when played well (not a discussion of the effort that goes into playing it, that’s a different topic), it can decap any point in any situation and take the full cap with relative ease, even in outnumbered situations.

The first problem with that is that is brainlessly spams CC on a point which is bad gameplay design that has no counterplay to it (note I’m intentionally saying counterplay and not counters).

The second is that ventari rev doesn’t exist in a vacuum. There are other classes/builds that basically require a +1 to kill them as well, and that essentially means that the enemy team can “camp” 2 hard to kill classes on 2 different nodes have have the other 3 people on the team roam and decap, and that essentially gives these team comps a free win.

CC spam, ESPECIALLY the kind that provides decaps, takes the competition out of a supposedly competitive environment because you now have to play around a poorly designed mechanic instead of being in direct competition with other players, and that’s why it doesn’t need a “nerf,” it needs a gameplay design correction to restore the integrity of a gamemode that intends to be competitive.

Lol, being left with a 4v5 on 2 nodes would be great. Rotating between nodes and continuously killing players is great. Can’t see how competent players would even lose one node like that.

such easy solution ppl just dont want to try probably as most are soloQ and cannot communicate

seems that ppl call a support build op if it cant be killed in 1v1 – so NO

ventari rev can be killed in 1v2. just send the right class to do the job. ele wont get
killed if you send 2 sustain build against it. just send necro/guard + thief/power mesmer.

about rotation. a lots of assumptions so its hard to argue.

but usually both teams get close / far at start. (remember druid who run far to delay the cap…. OP man)
so rev go to mid. thus team fight. thus focus him and cc him to death. its the same when all team focus the necro first as if not necro will kill you fast…. OP necro…. (if not targeted in team fight)

so if rev died in team fight. your theif should go far and decap so when rev respwan he will go far to cap it again. than you have 5v4 on mid (but if you won 4v4 on mid earlier can thier rev died you had 4v3 than 3v3 than again 4v3 (thief rotate) so your team must win mid and probably kill 2-3 enemies. than you have 2 points. so just hold them. if rev comes to mid do the same rotation and cc him to death. if rev goes your home to decap your thief can decap far and +1 close.

so yes thief is the counter (to many builds) as +1 and decaper.

but still ppl looking to kill some build 1v1 and get annoyed by it.

check esl fights and you will see how in 1v1 situation no one spend time on ele. or out rotate the ele location to where he cannot support his team for fast kills . ele OP ….

also good guardian can hold the point with stability, blocks, aegis while pushing the rev with dmg while rev has no nrg. maybe he wont kill it but fast +1 by necro or thief can kill the rev fast.
so if you want to hold points send guard.

also lets assume a new build arrived which become very good against the other meta old builds. why ppl dont try to rebuild new ones to win it.
if we nerf every new build without trying to rebuild counter what the point of this game and its evolution.

Im praying the new POF elite specs will cause ventari rev to vanish

mrauls.6519:

Im praying the new POF elite specs will cause ventari rev to vanish

it will eat dirt vs scourge

Yeah ventari rely on camping on pts and knock everyone else out, which scourge counters badly with its sand shades. This is another topic on itself but I’m actually curious whether scourge will change current meta to a more range or offpt fighting manner in low/mid tier.

Back to the topic, I think an easy fix to this dilemma they should make energy expulsion a 2s knockdown instead of knockback, then buff team support ability of that skill to provide 3s AoE protection and vigor. In this case ventari can make a good bunker that doesn’t steal node from pretty much most builds that doesn’t have accessible stability.

Furthermore ventari need more team support ability. Change all ventari skill range from 240 to 360 like elemental bastion and you have ventari compete with elementalist for healbot role. You’ll probably need stun break on natural harmony though they’ll have to increase the energy to 30 or something.

The CC skill on tablet simply needs a minimum energy cost increase.

A bunker should only be able to bunker, not to steal a capture point from defender so easily.

Sly.9518:

The build also dies to being focused so if a team actually rotates the player does quite easily in teamfights, but I understand this is Solo queue players expect only 1 person to manage the side nodes while everyone else feeds mid….

This just highlights how a lot of players just don’t know how to fight the build or are familiar with it.

No

The animation of the #6 tablet summon and the #10 explode are overlapping animations. You can’t reliably tell if someone is only summoning a tablet or if they are also immediately exploding it, which in that case the animation overlaps and you can’t see the distinction between 6 and 0.

This is extremely exploitable and it needs to be fixed.

Trevor Boyer.6524:

Sly.9518:

The build also dies to being focused so if a team actually rotates the player does quite easily in teamfights, but I understand this is Solo queue players expect only 1 person to manage the side nodes while everyone else feeds mid….

This just highlights how a lot of players just don’t know how to fight the build or are familiar with it.

No

The animation of the #6 tablet summon and the #10 explode are overlapping animations. You can’t reliably tell if someone is only summoning a tablet or if they are also immediately exploding it, which in that case the animation overlaps and you can’t see the distinction between 6 and 0.

This is extremely exploitable and it needs to be fixed.

When summoning the tablet There are no large vines that shoot from the ground and wrap up the Tablet at all, the tablet explosion has roots shoot out from the ground to engulf the already present tablet and slam it to the ground.

You said that Energy Explosion has no animation, when there is a very distinct animation that takes 2 secs to complete before the knockback ever happens….

All I said is there is an Animation.

It’s also exploitable when large wide characters such as char, are able to block any/all animations from tablet casting by standing on it.

Trevor Boyer.6524:

It’s also exploitable when large wide characters such as char, are able to block any/all animations from tablet casting by standing on it.

There is a reason why standard character models are a thing.

I just drag the rev off there point till i cap it for my team and let them try to repeat the feat i did lol they cant kill me and it takes forever to kill them which is freaken amusing. and their kb is easy to dodge fyi