Guild Wars 2

Celestial engineer has weaknesses. Good ones know how to tackle them, but they still exists. Mesmers are one. Necros is a big one. Condi classes in general are REALLY strong against them. Shout warriors, condi rangers, and even good condi engis can beat celestial engis. They are not invincible, they are just a hard match-up that requires lots of practice against. But once you get how to beat them, it would be rather easy. Learn to dodge please.

After all, engineers can’t stack might, the only source of might – sigil of battle – have been nerfed. Unless you want engineers out of the meta, this is a sufficient nerf. Even tho i still believe sigil of doom/intel and Rifle knockback requires a nerf for it to be completley balanced. (Read my forum post for full details)

At OP. If it’s not one thing… it’s another..
Condi Engi’s = Condi Guards = Condi rangers. We all know they mostly play point defender rotations. If you have little to no condi cleanses, all condi classes will be op to you.
If you can’t cleanse a 10s condition then you have bigger issues.

Why do people want every single aspect of this game nerfed?

Saiyan.1704:

Sorel.4870:

style.6173:

Sorel.4870:

How is it a feedback? The changes are not implemented yet! Those forums sometimes…

Because some people can actually tell how the changes will impact the game. For example, after these latest balance changes, engi is going to be the most OP class by far. It is obvious.

It’s true, and I’m a little worried about engis myself.

I’m confused what yall are saying.
This coming patch will nerf might stacking. Other than a couple minor cd reductions, Engi’s aren’t getting buffed.

I hope you mean that Cele Engi’s will be weaker yet more OP than Ele and Warriors. Because other than that, the class after this patch will be the same as before.

Well, celestial engineers won’t be as strong. That’s great, because having 10 stacks of might at all time without blasting a single fire field was a bit too much. But rabid engineers are still extremely strong, and they were one of the only really strong builds that didn’t rely too much on might stacking. The tormenting sigil is a nice addition for them as well (that’s my main’s build in WvW). But we’ll see how it turns out.

imaclown.1628:

If that’s the case there are a LOT of other skills spread around the classes that need fixing, steal, ip etc.

IP isn’t the reason engi’s are OP, the reason was sigil of battle – which will be nerfed. Now IP ticks will be much lower for celestial engineer that I am already considering replacing it. Engineers have no way to stack might. Their issue is crowd control which has counter play. (other than Rifle KB which has a very hard tell — which is why i think it should be nerfed). As for steal, really? you think thiefs are not in a good spot right now? I don’t know man. That’s a different topic.

Patchi.9061:

- Mercy runes and warrior combined provide very strong res capabilities, requires a little shave (Change from 20% to 15%).

errr no. mercy runes and warriors are working as intend.
the 10% + 20% = 30% is fine and balanced.

strip the stability boon and cc the warrior if you are not happy.
there is counter play for this.

Patchi.9061:

- Minor nerfs to Longbow and Combustive shot clearing condis even tho it doesn’t hit any target. (It already has a large radius, this is a very minor shave).

WHAT are you even talking about?
longbow and combustive shot has already gone through many unjustified adjustments and does NOT require any further adjustments.

leave longbow alone.

The Engis aren’t OP because of the Sigil of Battle, their damage is fine. They are OP because of the constant knockdowns, immob, daze and the fact that they can be immune to immob on top of it.

Patchi.9061:

Necromancer;

- Change the animaton of Dark Path making it different from the animation of staff auto attacks.

• Reasoning:
  Dark path , when traited, is already a really powerful boon converting to condition gap closer with 1200 range that is very hard to Line of sight due to the nature of the skill. Dodging that skill is essential for a lot of classes that have a lot of boons and low condi clear (mesmer, thief, engineer) and unfortunatley it is a very hard tell in a 2v2+ team fight because it looks exactly the same as staff auto attacks. Combined with the passive and active fears the necro has it is extremley hard to dodge, adding an extra animation to the skill would make counter play possible to classes such as thief, elementalists, and Engineers.

- Add more animation to Staff mark 4 and 5, and Corrupt boon.

1. Dark Path can only be used in Death Shroud. Necrotic Grasp cannot be used in Death Shroud. I guess it’s pretty obvious, but well…

2. Corrupt Boon already misses 1/3 of the times because of random dodge, random evade, random blind and is being nerfed over and over and over again. Oh, and it also has funny terrain/structure issues. And sometimes doesn’t feel like hitting anything, being in bad mood. Yet people still have problems with it.

Look. Here, better counterplay than for 70% of skills in this game. If you are being focused by Necromancer and you pop 5 juicy boons, including Stability, you should expect CB, because CB-able Stability is best necro meal. Blind or dodge.

If you want to swim in boons without caution, sometimes you’ll find that one net and drown.

As for Putrid Mark and Reaper’s Mark. That’s just neverending loop. They’ll extend it’s cast time, I’ll fear you into those like I always do, you’ll come back and tell them to “fix” it again. First thing first, put 1 AoE ally-only condi cleanse back on Putrid Mark. Then we talk.

As for Spinal Shivers: It does decent damage to zerk clothies only if they have 3 boons up. And not more than one Thief’s Auto. And it’s already been nerfed. Besides, where are you having problems with Zerk Necromancers running it?

My bad, I should have added an explanation to why I would nerf Longbow and combustive shot. Three words: Celestial Shout Warriors.

It is obvious that d/d is getting the balance it needs. A lot of people are worried that shout warriors would be replacing D/d ele in the meta. Why wouldn’kitten It survives pretty well, has good mobility, can might stack effeciently, has a res banner, clears condis, offers good cc and a good mix in power/condi damage. It’s perfect!

The minor nerf in combustive shot would reduce the amount of condi clear it already has — Provides some sort of weakness to shout warriors. Poison is supposed to counter warriors as intended. However, with the current amount of condi clear it has with shouts and soldier runes, longbow combustive shot, it is a menace in 1vs1. I--I’m sure you already know that.
Please don’t be biased to your class, as I am an engineer and I am also requesting more nerfs on my own class. For a better and fairer game.

As for mercy runes — not that big of a deal to be honest. The problem is it synergises too well with the Res Banner and Warrior traits — making it more powerful than a lot of res utilities in every other class. (look at necro/ele/mesmer/engi res capabilities). Perhaps not reducing the res speed but reducing the health gained when the ally is res’d.

Xillllix.3485:

The Engis aren’t OP because of the Sigil of Battle, their damage is fine. They are OP because of the constant knockdowns, immob, daze and the fact that they can be immune to immob on top of it.

Engi’s being immune to immob is just a misplay by ur part. Transmute is on a 15 second cooldown and it would trigger by any condi u apply to it every 15 seconds. You should apply any other condi to engi before immobing it, and that’s an easy task.

Patchi.9061:

Shadelang.3012:

Patchi speaking as a necro I kinda cant help but laugh at what you said about greater marks. I cant think of a single build that takes this trait ever since the original marks got buffed in size to what was at the time the greater marks effect.

The only place I believe it was taken before that buff was for WvW and in certain early attempts at a heavy staff build for pvp. I havent seen anyone run that build in an extremely long time though.

I…honestly doubt your running into necros traited with greater marks as often as your claiming to.

Dude, you must be from EU or out of the NA scene for a while. EVERY good necro in this game uses Greater marks, and it counter the kitten out of engineers. If you look up to necros, you should look up to the best of them – Noscoc. He uses Greater marks, and he laughs at every engineer for playing that class against him. General counter to staff marks was to block and walk through them, now you can’t. Jokes on us. Reaper’s Protection is so easy to counter with little patience, while greater marks — well it’s obvious.. you’re screwed. If you’re not using greater marks as a condi necro against engineers, then i would suggest you reconsider that.

I will surely get Greater Marks over Reaper’s Protection because I like 1v1ing Blocking Engineers.

Not like I can’t Dark Path them instead during that block and fear right after.

Greater Marks was mandatory pick as Adept in 2012.

@Rym.1469
1. I am aware of that. However, this doesn’t change the fact that it is a very hard tell in a 2v2+ scenario. A change in animation would not hurt necromancers at all as good necros would still be able to land the skill. However, it would help other players to be able to counter it as it is a very significant skill to dodge — and it is very hard to do that because of the animation and the instant cast deathshroud fear. (good necros are patient with their deathshroud.) — Other minor skills have more tell than that such as Warrior pindown, mesmer shatters, engineer pulls and what not.
2. Like i said above, i’m not requesting a change in cast time – if you’re good with timing your skills and combos- then you should be awarded by landing them. However, there is almost no tell to corrupt boon. Some classes have a constant boon upkeep, All i request is an animation similar to signets in necros where it will pop above the necro’s head. Corrupt boon is arguably more powerful than signet of spite, yet spite has a tell but corrupt boon doesn’t.
3. As for spinal shivers — for thiefs, mesmers, eles — if you’re at 50% health, it doesnt matter what you get hit by it can be an instant deathshroud fear and it will proc. Like i said many classes in this game have a constant 3+ boons in them — in fact, the only class that doesn’t have that is necro. I personally don’t have trouble with power necro — but i find it absurd how a low skill spec can 1 shot a high skill spec such as theif/mesmer with ease. Almost laughable.

Patchi.9061:

Celestial engineer has weaknesses. Good ones know how to tackle them, but they still exists. Mesmers are one. Necros is a big one. Condi classes in general are REALLY strong against them. Shout warriors, condi rangers, and even good condi engis can beat celestial engis. They are not invincible, they are just a hard match-up that requires lots of practice against. But once you get how to beat them, it would be rather easy. Learn to dodge please.

After all, engineers can’t stack might, the only source of might – sigil of battle – have been nerfed. Unless you want engineers out of the meta, this is a sufficient nerf. Even tho i still believe sigil of doom/intel and Rifle knockback requires a nerf for it to be completley balanced. (Read my forum post for full details)

so have eles. necro and mesmer and even thief to some extent. whats your point?

Burning already has high base damage nerfing might isn’t going to do kitten to IP. But I didn’t mean to target engineers with my comment simply saying if we ate going to nerf necromancers passives because they don’t have counters then there are a lot of other broken skills that you neglected to mention.

Also ever since dhuumfire necro has been repeatedly nerfed while calling them bugfixes. The only reason they are viable right now is because they counter (sort of) the two strongest classes. If that changes necros are going to need a serious buff.

imaclown.1628:

Burning already has high base damage nerfing might isn’t going to do kitten to IP. But I didn’t mean to target engineers with my comment simply saying if we ate going to nerf necromancers passives because they don’t have counters then there are a lot of other broken skills that you neglected to mention.

Just because we have many issues in the game doesn’t deny the fact that the issues I addressed are issues as well. One step at a time on the right path will fix this game.

Aside from that I 100% agree with this post:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/Things-that-should-be-in-the-balance-patch/first#post4704520

I think it addressed the issues better than I did, definitely worth checking out.

Jekkt.6045:

Patchi.9061:

Celestial engineer has weaknesses. Good ones know how to tackle them, but they still exists. Mesmers are one. Necros is a big one. Condi classes in general are REALLY strong against them. Shout warriors, condi rangers, and even good condi engis can beat celestial engis. They are not invincible, they are just a hard match-up that requires lots of practice against. But once you get how to beat them, it would be rather easy. Learn to dodge please.

After all, engineers can’t stack might, the only source of might – sigil of battle – have been nerfed. Unless you want engineers out of the meta, this is a sufficient nerf. Even tho i still believe sigil of doom/intel and Rifle knockback requires a nerf for it to be completley balanced. (Read my forum post for full details)

so have eles. necro and mesmer and even thief to some extent. whats your point?

My point is, Engineers are not as much of a threat as most people think they are to be. Eles and Necros right now win almost all match ups against the “meta” classes, while engineer struggles with a lot of meta match ups. The nerf on sigil of battle is a good shave to engineers, and it would hurt them more than Eles as they have no other way of stacking might. Necromancers are untouched, and Eles still have their perma vigor and high protection uptime. A lot of people want engineer out of the meta, however, aside from the Rifle knockback suggested nerf I don’t believe there should be a lot more nerfs as a lot of classes would replace it by then.

Patchi.9061:

My bad, I should have added an explanation to why I would nerf Longbow and combustive shot. Three words: Celestial Shout Warriors.

It is obvious that d/d is getting the balance it needs. A lot of people are worried that shout warriors would be replacing D/d ele in the meta. Why wouldn’kitten It survives pretty well, has good mobility, can might stack effeciently, has a res banner, clears condis, offers good cc and a good mix in power/condi damage. It’s perfect!

The minor nerf in combustive shot would reduce the amount of condi clear it already has — Provides some sort of weakness to shout warriors. Poison is supposed to counter warriors as intended. However, with the current amount of condi clear it has with shouts and soldier runes, longbow combustive shot, it is a menace in 1vs1. I--I’m sure you already know that.
Please don’t be biased to your class, as I am an engineer and I am also requesting more nerfs on my own class. For a better and fairer game.

As for mercy runes — not that big of a deal to be honest. The problem is it synergises too well with the Res Banner and Warrior traits — making it more powerful than a lot of res utilities in every other class. (look at necro/ele/mesmer/engi res capabilities). Perhaps not reducing the res speed but reducing the health gained when the ally is res’d.

celestial shout warriors are fine.
they are not invincible really.

they still succumb to massive condition spam once they have exhausted everything they have. the counter play is to apply more conditions they can handle.

look, even with cleansing ire, warhorn convert 2 conditions (12s and 16s cooldown) and up to 3 shouts removing 4 conditions (20 s for great justice, 20 s shake it off 2 conditions, 48 s fear me or 24 s on my mark) it is not enough against massive condition spam, once all these are used and within the 10 s window, good engineers / mesmers / necromancers / heavy condition appliers are still able to apply enough conditions and melt the warrior.

if you play a warrior long enough, face enough good condition heavy teams in ranked arena, you will know, even with warrior’s good condition management system, warriors still succumb to conditions in the end.

but hey if you play engineer your own condition management is much, much more limited than warriors but somehow i see engineers still have okay condition management. this is what separate good players (like yourself) from average players like me.

so the nerfs requests for warhorn is not fair.

those asking for nerfs to warhorn are probably those who can not apply that many conditions quickly enough to overwhelm the warrior.

as for mercy rune reviving 30% more health with battle standard, yes, that is a nice combination, provided that the warrior is not interrupt during the 2 s activation time.

do you have any idea how many times my balanced stance > battle standard combo is interrupted?

somehow, they can always remove my stability and interrupt my warrior, preventing me from reviving my team mates and stomping them successfully. i dun even bother with mercy runes though. past experience tells me it would be mercy runes would only be useful in certain situations.

most of the time, they are covering the downed team mate with lots of conditions AOE and any attempt to manually revive the downed team mates without battle standard is skin to diving into a pot of hot lava and melting instantly. even with berzerker stance, the direct damage from the AOE is insane.

did you even read my post about the loss of power compared from ele/war to engi?
engi is as tanky as ele and has even more direct damage and condi pressure.

Good warriors Los their banners, and with proper communication will get it done. There is a lot of counter play to warrior banner as well as there are a lot of ways to counter counter that. The fact remains, the numbers on that banner res are too high. The cooldown is great – but the synergy should be punished somehow. Mercy runes are very cheesy and full celestial comps abuse that. (It’s not only warrior but also staff eles can run that). It is a mistake that I put it under that category, it is a general change. I’ve run across teams that ran 2 mercy warriors, a staff ele, and 2 d/d eles…and they took 2nd to only abjured. Why are we rewarding low skill play?

Jekkt.6045:

did you even read my post about the loss of power compared from ele/war to engi?
engi is as tanky as ele and has even more direct damage and condi pressure.

How are they more “tanky?”. Eles have perma vigor, 50% protection upkeep. We don’t have protection, we have only one stunbreak and another one at 25% health. We have barely any condi clear and we are hard countered by Condi classes — while eles can 1v1 pretty much anything – except possibly power necros. Our block is OP, our rifle knockback is op, but that’s why i suggested a nerf on one of them, as it will effect the other. If we nerf the knockback our CC will be a lot weaker since it is the only CC that is hard to dodge, while the rest have easy tells (aside from stealth pulls). With the nerf on rifle KB cooldowns it will force us to either trait it to reduce its cooldowns, which will nerf our block — or we will remain weaker in terms of CC and maintain our block — overall a shave and more counter play. A class shouldn’t be dominant over all classes, but rather have equal chances against most of them. We already have that.

“Dev note: This penalty felt unnecessary and it wasn’t fun”

This was quite important for me to see. There are quite a few skills in the game that just aren’t particularly fun due to various penalties and lack of rewards for landing as a part of a combo. So I’m glad to see some concerns over this from the balance team.

In particular, I really would love for the Mesmer scepter auto-attack to be revised. It is so painfully slow that even with the new torment it’s still not fun to use. The after-cast from Ether Clone is really quite crippling for chaining attacks. It kind of feels wrong that Mesmer, a class that thematically exudes such finesse, has such a clunky auto-attack chain.

Patchi.9061:

Good warriors Los their banners, and with proper communication will get it done. There is a lot of counter play to warrior banner as well as there are a lot of ways to counter counter that. The fact remains, the numbers on that banner res are too high. The cooldown is great – but the synergy should be punished somehow. Mercy runes are very cheesy and full celestial comps abuse that. (It’s not only warrior but also staff eles can run that). It is a mistake that I put it under that category, it is a general change. I’ve run across teams that ran 2 mercy warriors, a staff ele, and 2 d/d eles…and they took 2nd to only abjured. Why are we rewarding low skill play?

ooo !!! i see! don’t make the battle standard too obvious! well, yeah, that’s a given! but in the past i was often too slow in using the battle standard so i was kinda rushing to use the battle standard. but anyway this is what separate good players from average i guess.

and yeah, voice communication, during the test season, me and my friends, we were playing very casually together, so no voice communication but we did have some text communication in the game.

well, being a warrior player mainly myself who will never develop the personal mechanical skills to play elementalist properly, i don’t see the elementalist as “low skill play” though.

you see, i may appear to defend warrior on these forums a lot, because i can’t play other professions that well. i can play ranger pew pew casually, play mesmer clones hide and seek casually, play thief hide and seek casually, attempt to tank with guardian casually but fail miserably, play with necromancer sometimes. but i can’t play engineer and elementalist that well.

i don’t complain when i get beat by engineers or elementalists. i just accept that i got outplayed by them.

and you certainly don’t see me asking for nerfs for other professions, well, because i know there are already many people asking for nerfs, there is no need for me to join them. all i need to do is to “defend” errr “my” warrior profession. so that’s what i will do.

Simonoly.4352:

“Dev note: This penalty felt unnecessary and it wasn’t fun”

This was quite important for me to see. There are quite a few skills in the game that just aren’t particularly fun due to various penalties and lack of rewards for landing as a part of a combo. So I’m glad to see some concerns over this from the balance team.

In particular, I really would love for the Mesmer scepter auto-attack to be revised. It is so painfully slow that even with the new torment it’s still not fun to use. The after-cast from Ether Clone is really quite crippling for chaining attacks. It kind of feels wrong that Mesmer, a class that thematically exudes such finesse, has such a clunky auto-attack chain.

I would prefer people to not spam torment with finesse, thanks.

as engi you have access to a lot of heal on demand with one of the best heal skills in the game. you can chain your blasts/leaps which aren’t even on a long cooldown. the kiting potential of a celestial rifle engi is beyond the one of an ele and your chances in a 1v1 are just as good.

you have a way larger health pool than ele has and as nice as protection is, d/d is close combat. how do you imagine a light armor class fighting in close combat without something like that?

if you want to nerf engi then nerf the passive traits like incendiary powder. as suggested many times this trait needs an icon that indicates that it is up and that you can actually dodge it. the same for transmute, rather than just converting a condition it should make the engi do something, switch to a kit or whatever is useful.

Chaith.8256:

Simonoly.4352:

“Dev note: This penalty felt unnecessary and it wasn’t fun”

This was quite important for me to see. There are quite a few skills in the game that just aren’t particularly fun due to various penalties and lack of rewards for landing as a part of a combo. So I’m glad to see some concerns over this from the balance team.

In particular, I really would love for the Mesmer scepter auto-attack to be revised. It is so painfully slow that even with the new torment it’s still not fun to use. The after-cast from Ether Clone is really quite crippling for chaining attacks. It kind of feels wrong that Mesmer, a class that thematically exudes such finesse, has such a clunky auto-attack chain.

I would prefer people to not spam torment with finesse, thanks.

I dunno, I think condi mesmer is a fair bit more balanced than Engineers currently, and spams less condis too. At least it has a role as “duelist” instead of the Cele Rifle role of “Duelist, Team Fighter, Support, Bunker, Home Node Defender”

Arachnid.4062:

Chaith.8256:

Simonoly.4352:

“Dev note: This penalty felt unnecessary and it wasn’t fun”

This was quite important for me to see. There are quite a few skills in the game that just aren’t particularly fun due to various penalties and lack of rewards for landing as a part of a combo. So I’m glad to see some concerns over this from the balance team.

In particular, I really would love for the Mesmer scepter auto-attack to be revised. It is so painfully slow that even with the new torment it’s still not fun to use. The after-cast from Ether Clone is really quite crippling for chaining attacks. It kind of feels wrong that Mesmer, a class that thematically exudes such finesse, has such a clunky auto-attack chain.

I would prefer people to not spam torment with finesse, thanks.

I dunno, I think condi mesmer is a fair bit more balanced than Engineers currently, and spams less condis too. At least it has a role as “duelist” instead of the Cele Rifle role of “Duelist, Team Fighter, Support, Bunker, Home Node Defender”

Lol wat. A fair bit more balanced than Engineers? You mean dodge three times to get clones up and then camp in stealth and wait for them to apply condis? How can you even say torment on AA and balanced in the same sentence. It’s crap, that’s why no one uses it. But that build is far far far from being balanced.

Jekkt.6045:

as engi you have access to a lot of heal on demand with one of the best heal skills in the game. you can chain your blasts/leaps which aren’t even on a long cooldown. the kiting potential of a celestial rifle engi is beyond the one of an ele and your chances in a 1v1 are just as good.

you have a way larger health pool than ele has and as nice as protection is, d/d is close combat. how do you imagine a light armor class fighting in close combat without something like that?

if you want to nerf engi then nerf the passive traits like incendiary powder. as suggested many times this trait needs an icon that indicates that it is up and that you can actually dodge it. the same for transmute, rather than just converting a condition it should make the engi do something, switch to a kit or whatever is useful.

IP has a 10 second cooldown on crit — I think thats fairly balanced as celestial has 25% crit chance, and if they use intel sigils then that is the issue and that is the tell you need, other than that 25% crit chance isnt that big of a deal.

Laraley.7695:

Arachnid.4062:

Chaith.8256:

Simonoly.4352:

“Dev note: This penalty felt unnecessary and it wasn’t fun”

This was quite important for me to see. There are quite a few skills in the game that just aren’t particularly fun due to various penalties and lack of rewards for landing as a part of a combo. So I’m glad to see some concerns over this from the balance team.

In particular, I really would love for the Mesmer scepter auto-attack to be revised. It is so painfully slow that even with the new torment it’s still not fun to use. The after-cast from Ether Clone is really quite crippling for chaining attacks. It kind of feels wrong that Mesmer, a class that thematically exudes such finesse, has such a clunky auto-attack chain.

I would prefer people to not spam torment with finesse, thanks.

I dunno, I think condi mesmer is a fair bit more balanced than Engineers currently, and spams less condis too. At least it has a role as “duelist” instead of the Cele Rifle role of “Duelist, Team Fighter, Support, Bunker, Home Node Defender”

Lol wat. A fair bit more balanced than Engineers? You mean dodge three times to get clones up and then camp in stealth and wait for them to apply condis? How can you even say torment on AA and balanced in the same sentence. It’s crap, that’s why no one uses it. But that build is far far far from being balanced.

Let me know when you see a Condi mesmer used in 5v5 conquest pvp in a high level tournament, thanks.

Also let me know the next time you see a time run double Cele Engineer.

Arachnid.4062:

Laraley.7695:

Arachnid.4062:

Chaith.8256:

Simonoly.4352:

“Dev note: This penalty felt unnecessary and it wasn’t fun”

This was quite important for me to see. There are quite a few skills in the game that just aren’t particularly fun due to various penalties and lack of rewards for landing as a part of a combo. So I’m glad to see some concerns over this from the balance team.

In particular, I really would love for the Mesmer scepter auto-attack to be revised. It is so painfully slow that even with the new torment it’s still not fun to use. The after-cast from Ether Clone is really quite crippling for chaining attacks. It kind of feels wrong that Mesmer, a class that thematically exudes such finesse, has such a clunky auto-attack chain.

I would prefer people to not spam torment with finesse, thanks.

I dunno, I think condi mesmer is a fair bit more balanced than Engineers currently, and spams less condis too. At least it has a role as “duelist” instead of the Cele Rifle role of “Duelist, Team Fighter, Support, Bunker, Home Node Defender”

Lol wat. A fair bit more balanced than Engineers? You mean dodge three times to get clones up and then camp in stealth and wait for them to apply condis? How can you even say torment on AA and balanced in the same sentence. It’s crap, that’s why no one uses it. But that build is far far far from being balanced.

Let me know when you see a Condi mesmer used in 5v5 conquest pvp in a high level tournament, thanks.

Also let me know the next time you see a time run double Cele Engineer.

I already told you why no one uses it. Because it’s crap. But if something is bad, doesn’t mean it’s balanced. It’s probably the most brainded build in this game, the fact it doesn’t have high reward still doesn’t mean it’s balanced. It’s just bad.

And I never said Engis don’t need some tweaks, they do. Indcendiary Powder and Overcharged shot really need some changes.

But it seems you want teams to run double PU condi mesmer. Ye, that would be so much fun.

Arachnid.4062:

Laraley.7695:

Arachnid.4062:

Chaith.8256:

Simonoly.4352:

“Dev note: This penalty felt unnecessary and it wasn’t fun”

This was quite important for me to see. There are quite a few skills in the game that just aren’t particularly fun due to various penalties and lack of rewards for landing as a part of a combo. So I’m glad to see some concerns over this from the balance team.

In particular, I really would love for the Mesmer scepter auto-attack to be revised. It is so painfully slow that even with the new torment it’s still not fun to use. The after-cast from Ether Clone is really quite crippling for chaining attacks. It kind of feels wrong that Mesmer, a class that thematically exudes such finesse, has such a clunky auto-attack chain.

I would prefer people to not spam torment with finesse, thanks.

I dunno, I think condi mesmer is a fair bit more balanced than Engineers currently, and spams less condis too. At least it has a role as “duelist” instead of the Cele Rifle role of “Duelist, Team Fighter, Support, Bunker, Home Node Defender”

Lol wat. A fair bit more balanced than Engineers? You mean dodge three times to get clones up and then camp in stealth and wait for them to apply condis? How can you even say torment on AA and balanced in the same sentence. It’s crap, that’s why no one uses it. But that build is far far far from being balanced.

Let me know when you see a Condi mesmer used in 5v5 conquest pvp in a high level tournament, thanks.

Also let me know the next time you see a time run double Cele Engineer.

It’s a conquest game, you need to cap points/keep them decapped. Mesmers fail at both. Condi mesmers are sustained fighters, unless you’re willing to fight for 30s-1minute against a person on a point that’s not urs, be my guest and good luck not getting +1d.

infantrydiv.1620:

Ithilwen.1529:

Looking at the balance patch made me sick to my stomach.. You are going to BUFF Ranger? that’s so ridiculous I can’t even express it accurately.

Yes, because Condi Rangers with Torch and Power Rangers with Warhorn have been terrorizing everyone in the top tier meta for 8 months similar to Elementalist and Engineer, right?

lol that guy again.

Patchi.9061:

Arachnid.4062:

Laraley.7695:

Arachnid.4062:

Chaith.8256:

Simonoly.4352:

“Dev note: This penalty felt unnecessary and it wasn’t fun”

This was quite important for me to see. There are quite a few skills in the game that just aren’t particularly fun due to various penalties and lack of rewards for landing as a part of a combo. So I’m glad to see some concerns over this from the balance team.

In particular, I really would love for the Mesmer scepter auto-attack to be revised. It is so painfully slow that even with the new torment it’s still not fun to use. The after-cast from Ether Clone is really quite crippling for chaining attacks. It kind of feels wrong that Mesmer, a class that thematically exudes such finesse, has such a clunky auto-attack chain.

I would prefer people to not spam torment with finesse, thanks.

I dunno, I think condi mesmer is a fair bit more balanced than Engineers currently, and spams less condis too. At least it has a role as “duelist” instead of the Cele Rifle role of “Duelist, Team Fighter, Support, Bunker, Home Node Defender”

Lol wat. A fair bit more balanced than Engineers? You mean dodge three times to get clones up and then camp in stealth and wait for them to apply condis? How can you even say torment on AA and balanced in the same sentence. It’s crap, that’s why no one uses it. But that build is far far far from being balanced.

Let me know when you see a Condi mesmer used in 5v5 conquest pvp in a high level tournament, thanks.

Also let me know the next time you see a time run double Cele Engineer.

It’s a conquest game, you need to cap points/keep them decapped. Mesmers fail at both. Condi mesmers are sustained fighters, unless you’re willing to fight for 30s-1minute against a person on a point that’s not urs, be my guest and good luck not getting +1d.

Seen my fair share of condi shatter mesmer there and there it will be more common at some point(they’re buffing it low key), waiting for the general migration from zerker/rabid to celestial so I can say :“I predicted it!!!”.

Rym.1469:

Patchi.9061:

Shadelang.3012:

Patchi speaking as a necro I kinda cant help but laugh at what you said about greater marks. I cant think of a single build that takes this trait ever since the original marks got buffed in size to what was at the time the greater marks effect.

The only place I believe it was taken before that buff was for WvW and in certain early attempts at a heavy staff build for pvp. I havent seen anyone run that build in an extremely long time though.

I…honestly doubt your running into necros traited with greater marks as often as your claiming to.

Dude, you must be from EU or out of the NA scene for a while. EVERY good necro in this game uses Greater marks, and it counter the kitten out of engineers. If you look up to necros, you should look up to the best of them – Noscoc. He uses Greater marks, and he laughs at every engineer for playing that class against him. General counter to staff marks was to block and walk through them, now you can’t. Jokes on us. Reaper’s Protection is so easy to counter with little patience, while greater marks — well it’s obvious.. you’re screwed. If you’re not using greater marks as a condi necro against engineers, then i would suggest you reconsider that.

I will surely get Greater Marks over Reaper’s Protection because I like 1v1ing Blocking Engineers.

Not like I can’t Dark Path them instead during that block and fear right after.

Greater Marks was mandatory pick as Adept in 2012.

Let me get this straight…You are willing to get a 2second fear on a 60 second cooldown over a trait that will make ur marks unblockable and greater radius? – that can interrupt engi blocks, DESTROYS guardian shelter, will cover up most of Shadow refuge radius, cover up the whole point in a team fight, will go over LoS spots in certain points of the game like Mine in Forest..and the list goes on. I don’t even know what we’re debating anymore..this is a clear favorite unless you wanna give engis a chance to beat you 1vs1.

the trait is 100% passive. that is the problem. you can not predict it nor can you avoid it.
and it deals a lot of damage for that it is not even avoidable.

Arachnid.4062:

Cele Rifle role of “Duelist, Team Fighter, *Support, Bunker, Home Node Defender”*

Cele Engi is too strong in conquest, much more so than Condi Mesmer, but that’s your response to why Scepter Auto Attack Torment should not be increased in attack speed or ‘finesse’?

Also, you don’t really get the Rifle Engi’s role. Haha. You’re pretty far off. Healing Turret =/= support role. The Cleansing Burst doesn’t scale with healing, you’re basically saying every PvP Engineer in the game is support. Bunkering. The Engineer can’t hold nodes because they lack condition removal and simply accumulate burning and won’t win the fight. You have to stand outside the red circles on Engi. Shoutbow and D/D Ele have 5 times the Condition Removal per minute. 30 v. 6, when Engineer uses the Healing Turret to knock enemies, as they should. The point holders are who you want to keep the nodes, not the roamers. It’s not a blurred line.

It’s a roaming duelist and teamfighter.. it can’t do Support, Bunkering, or keep home node capped 1v1 even half as good as dedicated roles.

More of a CC based assassin than a bunker, when ran with Slick Shoes. Cele Engi is OP, but not because it’s good at half the things you think it is.

It’s because it kicks kitten and has ridiculous CC. Puts on Sunglasses.

Patchi.9061:

IP isn’t the reason engi’s are OP

If you think this, you should stop proposing balance changes.

Incendiary Powder is incredibly broken and should have been nerfed a year ago. With 6 points in Explosives, it’s a baseline 5 second burn which cannot be avoided and with all the cover conditions that engineers have, it’s near impossible to remove. With sigil of Intelligence and grenades, it’s reliably applied close to the internal cooldown. You end up eating the full duration, which even on a celestial engi after the nerfs is still ticking for almost 500 damage/second. That’s 2500 unavoidable damage for no effort on the part of the engineer. Every ~10 seconds.

You say Air and Fire are too good, yet totally ignore IP as being a problem. Don’t even say it’s the fault of runes because it’s too powerful on celestial rifle engi and they don’t use + condi duration runes.

Also, who in their right mind would ever use Sentinel amulet over Soldier’s? Soldier’s has plenty of vitality, you already nerf your damage a lot by taking this one, who would nerf his/her damage even further and gainig a little more HP by taking Sentinel’s? There are no passives like “the less health you have, the more damage you do” besides a single, crappy Warrior trait.
Yet another useless amulet that goes to the bulk of “here you have many options to make your own build” illusion of choise kitten.

Put some precision on that new amulet (282 maybe?) and we might start talking about viable choises.

Exedore.6320:

Patchi.9061:

IP isn’t the reason engi’s are OP

If you think this, you should stop proposing balance changes.

Incendiary Powder is incredibly broken and should have been nerfed a year ago. With 6 points in Explosives, it’s a baseline 5 second burn which cannot be avoided and with all the cover conditions that engineers have, it’s near impossible to remove. With sigil of Intelligence and grenades, it’s reliably applied close to the internal cooldown. You end up eating the full duration, which even on a celestial engi after the nerfs is still ticking for almost 500 damage/second. That’s 2500 unavoidable damage for no effort on the part of the engineer. Every ~10 seconds.

You say Air and Fire are too good, yet totally ignore IP as being a problem. Don’t even say it’s the fault of runes because it’s too powerful on celestial rifle engi and they don’t use + condi duration runes.

IP is one of the base reasons Engis are viable at the moment. Remove IP and what is left for engis to deal damage? You make it sound that you will eat 2500 damage over 10 seconds neglecting all sources of regen, condi clear, and whatnot.
Let’s take this to another level, let’s look at each spec;

Starting with Condi Engi. THE source of damage of condi engis are poison from sigil of doom ( requested nerf) sharpnel grenade (already gettin a nerf) and if traited 15% to have a bleed on each grenade toss (trading turret knockback) , then there is IP. Last but not least Confusion from pistol and prybar and toolkit 2. — Summarising it , 3 sources of Poison, 2 sources of burn (if p/s, 3 if p/p), 4-5 sources of bleeds. So there is no major “Spike” damage that engis have unless they manage to outperform the enemy by covering up the bleeds and burns — managing that is quite challenging as ur constantly applying bleeds(pistol autos) which will be condi cleared.

Celestial rifle: Most cele engis trait for turret knockback, so their only sources of condi damage are IP, Sharpnel nades, box of nails, poison grenades, prybar, blunderbuss and the rest are pretty much cover up condis and power damage. With the nerf of Battle sigils the power/condi of celestial has been tuned down, so in order for an engi to optimally do damage it would need to properly land CC which is not quite hard (suggested balance on Rifle KB, and remove pull from stealth) – Then all what is left are counterable CC and not many stacks of bleeds, one source of poison(2 with throw wrench), nor any source of burn other than IP. Engi is ment to be a hybrid class, zerker engi is not viable because other classes can do that and manage to survive better. If you nerf IP, there is little to no reason for players to play Engi over Condi necro or even condi rangers as there isn’t a proper source of burn it can provide.

~TL;DR: Engis main source of damage comes from the burns, rather than nerfing IP it is what makes IP more powerful which are Sigil of battle (nerfed), sigil of intel (suggested nerf), balthazar rune (suggested nerf), and Doom sigil (suggested nerf).

Chaith.8256:

Arachnid.4062:

Cele Rifle role of “Duelist, Team Fighter, *Support, Bunker, Home Node Defender”*

Cele Engi is too strong in conquest, much more so than Condi Mesmer, but that’s your response to why Scepter Auto Attack Torment should not be increased in attack speed or ‘finesse’?

Also, you don’t really get the Rifle Engi’s role. Haha. You’re pretty far off. Healing Turret =/= support role. The Cleansing Burst doesn’t scale with healing, you’re basically saying every PvP Engineer in the game is support. Bunkering. The Engineer can’t hold nodes because they lack condition removal and simply accumulate burning and won’t win the fight. You have to stand outside the red circles on Engi. Shoutbow and D/D Ele have 5 times the Condition Removal per minute. 30 v. 6, when Engineer uses the Healing Turret to knock enemies, as they should. The point holders are who you want to keep the nodes, not the roamers. It’s not a blurred line.

It’s a roaming duelist and teamfighter.. it can’t do Support, Bunkering, or keep home node capped 1v1 even half as good as dedicated roles.

More of a CC based assassin than a bunker, when ran with Slick Shoes. Cele Engi is OP, but not because it’s good at half the things you think it is.

It’s because it kicks kitten and has ridiculous CC. Puts on Sunglasses.

Engineer is great at stalling people, and it is by no means a bad node holder. It has extremely high healing per second, a pretty much uninterruptable heal, and good block uptime. It also gets more dangerous the closer proximity you are to it in general.

The fact that you think of Cele Rifle as an ‘assassin’ spec when its pretty tanky just goes to highlight how out of whack the balance on it is. Yeah, it’s a tanky build with assassin -esque damage. I agree.

I would say that along with Healing turret, the Crate can also be almost a full heal for a teammate. It’s definitely more support than what something like a Condi Mesmer or duelist Ranger would bring. Healing turret has a huge radius and removed condis. It’s like having two warrior shouts for your team in a fight, when all you actually need to take is your normal heal.

Leaving a snarky response to someone asking for a buff to a spec NEVER seen in competitive PvP is what my response intended to address. Especially the fact that an Engineer main calling Mesmer Scepter auto ‘spam’ when you guys have defended Incendiary Powder for ages. Although I do realize that all Engineer mains hate and call any condi-based build that can beat them in a 1v1 “brainless spam”.

Maybe we should give Mesmer an undodgeable auto proc that puts 5 stacks of torment on their opponent every 10 seconds instead of buffing the scepter auto.

Nerfing Air and fire proc would hurt S/D’s thieves more than anything IMO. We have already been nerfed enough. I don’t think s/d thief would be viable without these… i mean perhaps Air + force could be okay… but the spike burst of an S/D would be really hit and S/D thieves aren’t true burst the way d/p theif and other burst classes are.

imaclown.1628:

Burning already has high base damage nerfing might isn’t going to do kitten to IP. But I didn’t mean to target engineers with my comment simply saying if we ate going to nerf necromancers passives because they don’t have counters then there are a lot of other broken skills that you neglected to mention.

Also ever since dhuumfire necro has been repeatedly nerfed while calling them bugfixes. The only reason they are viable right now is because they counter (sort of) the two strongest classes. If that changes necros are going to need a serious buff.

Dhumfire necro is really good… but it has a high skill cap. I think its more than viable, I’ve seen people play it well, as in top tier necros, and it works… but the skill cap is very high and you have much less room for error than other classes/builds….

it truly is high risk high reward build.

Arachnid.4062:

Maybe we should give Mesmer an undodgeable auto proc that puts 5 stacks of torment on their opponent every 10 seconds instead of buffing the scepter auto.

Alright cool, Mesmers can get Tormentiary Powder,

And then Turret Engineers in hotjoins & unranked get to apply bleeding on all turret auto-attacks and apply AoE conditions on death. Hahaha. Or we could just not.. because that sounds completely awful.

I’d rather not play the game of ‘whose proc is it anyways’ but maybe closer to ‘what builds are not viable in tPvP and never should be’? Stealth-Condi Mesmer is certainly one of them.

Chaith.8256:

Arachnid.4062:

Maybe we should give Mesmer an undodgeable auto proc that puts 5 stacks of torment on their opponent every 10 seconds instead of buffing the scepter auto.

Alright cool, Mesmers can get Tormentiary Powder,

And then Turret Engineers in hotjoins & unranked get to apply bleeding on all turret auto-attacks and apply AoE conditions on death. Hahaha. Or we could just not.. because that sounds completely awful.

I’d rather not play the game of ‘whose proc is it anyways’ but maybe closer to ‘what builds are not viable in tPvP and never should be’? Stealth-Condi Mesmer is certainly one of them.

theres our forum warrior thinking that celestial engi isn’t brokenly overpowered and that its fair that it does more dmg than 90% of berserker amulet classes while having more tankiness than everything except a bunker guard and cele ele (wont even say warr because vs burst engi is 10x better)

leman.7682:

Joshua Grouch Davis,

We like the game and aren’t unthankful, but the pace at which the balance team releases changes is abysmal and their impact on the metagame in PvP and PvE is none.

I really hope it’s because HoT brings new weapons and skills and whatnot and that the balance looks different there, that the team was working hard to make the meta and playing all professions fun in the expansion (with the new game mode that is coming) which was the reason for close to no balance changes over the last year. Otherwise you’re never getting even close to making a competitive game and your e-sports dreams will remain just that – unfullfilled dreams. You’re moving farther away from it with every player lost to months of stale, uninspired and, sorry to say, plain dumb management of the game balance.

PvP can be a great community-building device, but it needs to be nurtured and taken care of. What’s been done during last year is just a spit in the face of your loyal players who’d been there even longer than some of the Devs and who supported the game and promoted it through viva voce. You’d be nowhere without these people. They deserve at least some honesty on what the hell is going on and why it’s taking the team 5 months to change 36 skills. Makes me sad thinking of it.

It’s been too long.

Sincerely,
a gw2 pvp fan since beta

+100 for leman

Booms.2594:

theres our forum warrior thinking that celestial engi isn’t brokenly overpowered

Reading comprehension bro, some have it, some don’t

Chaith.8256:

Cele Engi is too strong in conquest

Chaith.8256:

Cele Engi is OP, but not because it’s good at half the things you think it is.

I do agree that there needs to be something done about Incendiary Powder. There is just no way to avoid it at all, it’s a passive trait that generates over 5 sec of burning on cele amulet with 30 in Explosives on 10 sec cooldown, that’s really not ok.

Also, the reason why ele is ‘tankier’ is because ele has to trait 30 in water, there’s not really much of an choice with the lowest base hp pool and being a light armour wearer. It would definitely be cool to be able not to spec 30 in water and do as good as engis, atm it’s not really possible. However, engis do higher direct damage than eles.

Also, your only stun break is on 25 sec cooldown (Assuming you run Slick Shoes and 20 in Tools.), I wouldn’t really complain about that. Ele has armour of earth on 60 seconds and LF, but that is not a stun break. I do agree it can get you out of some kitten red aoe on point but still only one stunbreak. And sooo much cc engi can do. I do think that engis will be superior to other cele builds if these changes are the only thing that will be different.

Michael.9517:

imaclown.1628:

Burning already has high base damage nerfing might isn’t going to do kitten to IP. But I didn’t mean to target engineers with my comment simply saying if we ate going to nerf necromancers passives because they don’t have counters then there are a lot of other broken skills that you neglected to mention.

Also ever since dhuumfire necro has been repeatedly nerfed while calling them bugfixes. The only reason they are viable right now is because they counter (sort of) the two strongest classes. If that changes necros are going to need a serious buff.

Dhumfire necro is really good… but it has a high skill cap. I think its more than viable, I’ve seen people play it well, as in top tier necros, and it works… but the skill cap is very high and you have much less room for error than other classes/builds….

it truly is high risk high reward build.

I haven’t seen many Dhuumfire necros run around. Actually, I don’t even remember seeing one for a long time after it’s been nerfed. And top tier necros? Only seen Terrormancer builds.

Michael.9517:

imaclown.1628:

Burning already has high base damage nerfing might isn’t going to do kitten to IP. But I didn’t mean to target engineers with my comment simply saying if we ate going to nerf necromancers passives because they don’t have counters then there are a lot of other broken skills that you neglected to mention.

Also ever since dhuumfire necro has been repeatedly nerfed while calling them bugfixes. The only reason they are viable right now is because they counter (sort of) the two strongest classes. If that changes necros are going to need a serious buff.

Dhumfire necro is really good… but it has a high skill cap. I think its more than viable, I’ve seen people play it well, as in top tier necros, and it works… but the skill cap is very high and you have much less room for error than other classes/builds….

it truly is high risk high reward build.

Warriors, Eles, Engis – these professions supply with far better burning.

Condi Necro’s sole reason for existence in cele meta is the boon flip from PoC.

If people stop running boons, we will see Dhuumfire condi Necros, maybe.

Haven’t seen any Necro other than me playing with DF time to time for about half a year now.

Dhuumfire blows. It’s not worth it. You can spout out high skill cap all you want but the truth is you probably only get one shot at a lifeblast on a condi necro or you are burning way to much lifeforce. Pretty hefty investment for a condition other classes can spam you with granted it’s in condi duration….

I have tried to make it work quite a bit experimenting with a whole bunch options, the truth is a necros best source of burning is his transfers.

Patchi.9061:

Necromancer;

- Change the animaton of Dark Path making it different from the animation of staff auto attacks.

• Reasoning:
  Dark path , when traited, is already a really powerful boon converting to condition gap closer with 1200 range that is very hard to Line of sight due to the nature of the skill. Dodging that skill is essential for a lot of classes that have a lot of boons and low condi clear (mesmer, thief, engineer) and unfortunatley it is a very hard tell in a 2v2+ team fight because it looks exactly the same as staff auto attacks. Combined with the passive and active fears the necro has it is extremley hard to dodge, adding an extra animation to the skill would make counter play possible to classes such as thief, elementalists, and Engineers.

- Add more animation to Staff mark 4 and 5, and Corrupt boon.

Dark Path travels along the ground. Necrotic Grasp flies through the air. Dark Path homes. Necrotic Grasp does not. Dark Path comes out of Death Shroud. Necrotic Grasp does not.

Not sure how much more difference is necessary, or do you want Dark Path’s projectile replaced with a mini circus wagon?

Also, Reaper’s Mark already has a very different animation from all other marks. If you can’t tell the difference, this is your L2P problem.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Patchi.9061:

Necromancer;

- Change the animaton of Dark Path making it different from the animation of staff auto attacks.

• Reasoning:
  Dark path , when traited, is already a really powerful boon converting to condition gap closer with 1200 range that is very hard to Line of sight due to the nature of the skill. Dodging that skill is essential for a lot of classes that have a lot of boons and low condi clear (mesmer, thief, engineer) and unfortunatley it is a very hard tell in a 2v2+ team fight because it looks exactly the same as staff auto attacks. Combined with the passive and active fears the necro has it is extremley hard to dodge, adding an extra animation to the skill would make counter play possible to classes such as thief, elementalists, and Engineers.

- Add more animation to Staff mark 4 and 5, and Corrupt boon.

Dark Path travels along the ground. Necrotic Grasp flies through the air. Dark Path homes. Necrotic Grasp does not. Dark Path comes out of Death Shroud. Necrotic Grasp does not.

Not sure how much more difference is necessary, or do you want Dark Path’s projectile replaced with a mini circus wagon?

Also, Reaper’s Mark already has a very different animation from all other marks. If you can’t tell the difference, this is your L2P problem.

His suggestion to telegraph the marks more isn’t the worst idea, but drarnor is right reapers is different…. maybe as necros we should just start saying in map chat before we use it in pvp… I know eles and engis are struggling in the current meta and I’m sure the majority of the pvp community would appreciate it.