Retaliation/bunkers
You probably wont be able to solo a bunker as a burst dps. And certainly you cant solo a bunker quickly.
A condition damage dealre can wear them down. Maybe a mesmer because of boon strip can do it.
But if the bunkers good, neither will do it quickly.
The solution? Generally dont fight a bunker 1on1, unless your hitting them to start burning cooldowns because you have support coming to help finish em off.
Go assault a different node, look to steal svanir, go kill enemy lord. Go use a treb on the bunker.
Bunkers unfortunately aren’t going anywhere.
Let me be clear this isn’t an issue of how to play against a bunker or any given spec/class. My “main” and or class I’ve spent the most time with is a necro, I’m perfectly familiar with condi damage and boon stripping.
My point is the current state of PvP is pretty poor, and isn’t fun. I can’t stress it enough, this is not simply a power level issue but one of negative game play. I thought they wanted this to be an esport but who is going to want to watch a super boring battle of attrition against the multitude of tank specs.
There is no risk playing a bunker spec and no incentive to play glass DPS (the latter usually requiring the most twitch/skill in games).
Let me be clear this isn’t an issue of how to play against a bunker or any given spec/class. My “main” and or class I’ve spent the most time with is a necro, I’m perfectly familiar with condi damage and boon stripping.
My point is the current state of PvP is pretty poor, and isn’t fun. I can’t stress it enough, this is not simply a power level issue but one of negative game play. I thought they wanted this to be an esport but who is going to want to watch a super boring battle of attrition against the multitude of tank specs.
There is no risk playing a bunker spec and no incentive to play glass DPS (the latter usually requiring the most twitch/skill in games).
more like the latter usually requiring you use a set sequence of 3-5 skills with bunkers requiring consistently good play and resource management…
Bunkers are just kitten blocks… until you know, you grow a hatred to them that’s even half of the hatred i had for healers and make builds that flat out make them useless. Oh, all the bunker tears i’ve tasted when i man handle them off of the point and cap it out from under their stupid niche kitten #8230;
They sing dark, delicious notes about power and family.
As their mother, I have to grant them their wish. – Forever Fyonna
As their mother, I have to grant them their wish. – Forever Fyonna
More people have been exposed to tournaments lately and are discovering glassy builds are bad for most roles.
If you are that upset at GW2 then you just look like an idiot for sticking around. -Bongwizard Slubs
Its called counterplay, you are trying to fight scissors with paper; stop trying and pick up a rock.
excessive bunker and burst have been a problem for GW2 since the beginning. Alas it seems little has changed. Here’s hoping the Feb “PvP” patch addresses this fundamental gameplay flaw.
Bunkers exist because thieves and mesmers and warriors exist.
You try to play a non-thief/mesmer/warrior glass cannon build and see where that gets you. Taking a dirt nap is where that gets you.
Engineer glass cannon doesn’t exist. Ranger glass cannon doesn’t exist. Necro glass cannon doesn’t exist (they’re just glass anyway). Guardian is not glass cannon at all.
So, when you can’t dish the numbers in the short time windows warriors/mesmers/thieves can while still remaining fairly fragile yourself, you realize that you might as well go bunker because that’s the only way you can play.
Trust me, many rangers and necros and engineers and guardians would love to have glass cannon specs comparable to thieves/mesmer/warrior.
“Its called counterplay, you are trying to fight scissors with paper; stop trying and pick up a rock.”
I swear if i keep hearing that RPS comparison … i gonna flip!
This game advertises itself as skill based…
Who in the hell taught you guys that RPS is skill based ?!
Skill =/= RNG/Luck !
It’s the same kitten with the new warrior class description…
how can the game be skill based while the warrior description clearly states we need to rely on others…
that just does not go hand in hand !
And especially in pvp i think OP is totaly right.
Speccing bunker, soaking up dmg while healing and relying on a passive dmg buff you dont have to work for in any way or form to do upwards of 8k damage…
is as missplaced as all the classes relying on NPCs in a pvp enviroment to do their work or a big chunk of their dmg/utility totaly autonome and in no correlation to actual player input let alone skill.
This would be a good way to die…
But not good enough!
But not good enough!
(edited by GanJoe.5374)
yeah nerf all bunkers with access to retaliation
(ele s/d comes out clean :P )
Bunkers exist because thieves and mesmers and warriors exist.
You try to play a non-thief/mesmer/warrior glass cannon build and see where that gets you. Taking a dirt nap is where that gets you.
Engineer glass cannon doesn’t exist. Ranger glass cannon doesn’t exist. Necro glass cannon doesn’t exist (they’re just glass anyway). Guardian is not glass cannon at all.
So, when you can’t dish the numbers in the short time windows warriors/mesmers/thieves can while still remaining fairly fragile yourself, you realize that you might as well go bunker because that’s the only way you can play.
Trust me, many rangers and necros and engineers and guardians would love to have glass cannon specs comparable to thieves/mesmer/warrior.
You know nothing, 100nade build, look into it.
They sing dark, delicious notes about power and family.
As their mother, I have to grant them their wish. – Forever Fyonna
As their mother, I have to grant them their wish. – Forever Fyonna
Well, some people find playing glass cannon thieves, mesmers and warriors fun, they find 2 shotting any squishy is fun.
I find bunkers fun. Because it’s the direct counter.
If you want Anet to remove bunkers as a viable alternative, they better make sure they do something about those classes I mentioned, especially thieves, it’s beyond me how they’re able to take down a target in less.than.a.second. and because of the on going and still not fixed rendering issue you’re not even able to see them at all!
And don’t tell me they “lack survivability”, they don’t, none of them, thieves have the most safe getaway mechanics (stealth, blinks), mesmers have clones, blink, and stealth. Warriors have invincibility, heavy armor and a kitten ton of HP. And here’s a shocker, bunker builds is inefficient for them (except maybe thief) and they’re the first ones to complain when they can’t take down a bunker in 2 seconds.
@Dahrah, well compared to a balanced offense and defense build (essentially a condi build) they lack TONS of survivability, and thieves have it the worst, you can still man handle them while they stealth, or at least I do with my many launches on my condi turret engi…. So much fun launching those kittens after they stealth which completely wastes it.
They sing dark, delicious notes about power and family.
As their mother, I have to grant them their wish. – Forever Fyonna
As their mother, I have to grant them their wish. – Forever Fyonna
They have good survivability compared to rangers/necros/eles when they’re built for damage (I know little about engis so I’m not gonna comment on them). And chances are 85% of the time a zerker thief/mesmer/warrior will utterly destroy a zerker ele/necro/ranger. Guardians are just good all around.
It may be true that bunkers are kind of uncounterable at the moment, but instead of nerfing their damage Anet could add a new stat like toughness penetration and force people to give up on another stat like precision if they wanna take down a bunker more reliably.
They have good survivability compared to rangers/necros/eles when they’re built for damage (I know little about engis so I’m not gonna comment on them). And chances are 85% of the time a zerker thief/mesmer/warrior will utterly destroy a zerker ele/necro/ranger. Guardians are just good all around.
It may be true that bunkers are kind of uncounterable at the moment, but instead of nerfing their damage Anet could add a new stat like toughness penetration and force people to give up on another stat like precision if they wanna take down a bunker more reliably.
I’ve noticed Carrion Gear (paired with lots of conditions, poison being one of them) tends to crack bunkers pretty easily, the raw damage counters the vitality, and the condis counter the toughness making their health drop really rapidly, however this requires people to actually build for condi AND raw damage which a lot of people seem to be afraid to do.
They sing dark, delicious notes about power and family.
As their mother, I have to grant them their wish. – Forever Fyonna
As their mother, I have to grant them their wish. – Forever Fyonna
If you can’t kill a bunker or take their point; your doing it wrong.
I’m a engineer and I have absolutely no problem assaulting a guardian or ele’s point.
I will take it and if they stay on it; they will either die or I hold it while they try their hardest to kill me [unsuccessfully].
The point you make about it being boring depends on what class you play and how you use it. I have great balanced fights all the time that are exciting and fun. I survive some crazy situations and sometimes I get caught slipping but I often pull off amazing wins. [until some thief\mesmer comes to finish me off.]
\-\ Poquito (Engineer) /-/ Tarnished Coast
Not Sure If Serious [BZNZ] ||| Cynical [CYN]
Not Sure If Serious [BZNZ] ||| Cynical [CYN]
any class can devise a build to kill a bunker (assuming it’s not an ele who just runs away when low) people complain because they don’t want to have to change their build to do so, they want to be able to use the same 3-5 skill combo to insta-kill any player…
any class can devise a build to kill a bunker (assuming it’s not an ele who just runs away when low) people complain because they don’t want to have to change their build to do so, they want to be able to use the same 3-5 skill combo to insta-kill any player…
Boom this, and you can keep an ele from escaping if you have an immob/chill, but even if you can’t you forcing them to leave is a massive success on your part.
They sing dark, delicious notes about power and family.
As their mother, I have to grant them their wish. – Forever Fyonna
As their mother, I have to grant them their wish. – Forever Fyonna
They already nerfed retaliation and guardian retaliation uptime quite a lot.
It’s fine as it is now.
In PvP (basically inside PvP maps):
Retaliation deals 177 damage per hit with the base power of 916.
It increases by +1 damage for every ~18.94 power above that.
If an attack does not land (blocked,reflected etc.) you won’t get hit by retaliation.
A Bunker guardian with clerics amulet has around 1560power,so his retaliation will hit for 211 damage per hit.
A Dps guardian with soldiers amulet and power runes has around 2100power,so his retaliation will hit for ~239 damage per hit.
In both cases,without using the greatsword,there is barely any retaliation uptime.
Surrender is not an option!
Overall I don’t have a huge problem with bunkers. Applying multiple different conditions seems to be a very good rout to go to whittle them down. If your a straight up glass cannon then you need to figure out the best time to strike against that bunker and not rush in and drop all of your burst while hes blocking. I wont say every bunker spec is balanced (cough* ele’s *cough) but I will say they are not the be all end all you apparently think they are.
Any pvp game can only ever really go two ways in terms of pvp builds/roles. It either goes into extremes, or tries to keep everything balanced somewhere “in the middle”. Right now, GW2 pvp (due to the conquest game mode) is heavily leaning towards the extremes, since there are only really two things to be done in a match where defending or acquiring a node decides the victor. However gearing towards extremes cannot ever work just one-way. A game mode without any bunkers with everybody playing DPS characters would be just horrible for everyone (I still remember the first days after launch). It would eventually end-up with everybody playing a thief, and victory would be decided by seeing your enemy first/pushing a button. Also, nerfing bunkers so that burst specs don’t have any trouble dealing with them whatsoever would kill the purpose of a bunker build, killing the game itself eventually.
The other option is balanced play with balaced builds, which is not going to happen on conquest-style maps, simply because balanced builds offer absolutely nothing to well organized teams (with the sole two exceptions being the ele, and engi, who overcome the uselessness of balanced builds by offering profession-specific advantages to their team like unrivaled cc, healing or support, that other classes just cannot compete with).
However, during the last week, some other balanced builds and team compositions have gotten somewhat more attention from the community. That’s because temple of the silent storm brought much stronger objectives into the game than any of the previous maps, and therefore encouraged large-scale encounters, in which balanced builds just excel.
In all honesty, I believe that even the maps previously released should have their objectives strengthened (chief/svanir giving control of their adjacent point and double points for the side that has killed it until the point gets de-capped, or maybe even granting un-cappability of their adjascent point for two minutes. Also the death of guild-lord granting immediate victory would IMO make the game much more interesting to watch (for audience on streams)), because right now these objectives just carry little-to-no relevance. While standard conquest mode makes for a brilliant strategic gameplay and encourages clutch-decisions, it is boring and uninteresting to watch and play after quite a short while. Adding objectives for which teams just have to fight, or they will loose the game, would imo encourage build diversification as well as make for an interesting watch, possibly opening up a path for teams without bunkers and DPS maniacs, as there would be more ways to win a map than capping and holding points.
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Any pvp game can only ever really go two ways in terms of pvp builds/roles. It either goes into extremes, or tries to keep everything balanced somewhere “in the middle”. Right now, GW2 pvp (due to the conquest game mode) is heavily leaning towards the extremes, since there are only really two things to be done in a match where defending or acquiring a node decides the victor. However gearing towards extremes cannot ever work just one-way. A game mode without any bunkers with everybody playing DPS characters would be just horrible for everyone (I still remember the first days after launch). It would eventually end-up with everybody playing a thief, and victory would be decided by seeing your enemy first/pushing a button. Also, nerfing bunkers so that burst specs don’t have any trouble dealing with them whatsoever would kill the purpose of a bunker build, killing the game itself eventually.
The other option is balanced play with balaced builds, which is not going to happen on conquest-style maps, simply because balanced builds offer absolutely nothing to well organized teams (with the sole two exceptions being the ele, and engi, who overcome the uselessness of balanced builds by offering profession-specific advantages to their team like unrivaled cc, healing or support, that other classes just cannot compete with).
However, during the last week, some other balanced builds and team compositions have gotten somewhat more attention from the community. That’s because temple of the silent storm brought much stronger objectives into the game than any of the previous maps, and therefore encouraged large-scale encounters, in which balanced builds just excel.
In all honesty, I believe that even the maps previously released should have their objectives strengthened (chief/svanir giving control of their adjacent point and double points for the side that has killed it until the point gets de-capped, or maybe even granting un-cappability of their adjascent point for two minutes. Also the death of guild-lord granting immediate victory would IMO make the game much more interesting to watch (for audience on streams)), because right now these objectives just carry little-to-no relevance. While standard conquest mode makes for a brilliant strategic gameplay and encourages clutch-decisions, it is boring and uninteresting to watch and play after quite a short while. Adding objectives for which teams just have to fight, or they will loose the game, would imo encourage build diversification as well as make for an interesting watch, possibly opening up a path for teams without bunkers and DPS maniacs, as there would be more ways to win a map than capping and holding points.
I can not agree more with either of your suggestions on making the objectives a MUCH bigger role in the match (ESPECIALLY the guild lord one) that being said, if they make the change to the guild lord they -have- to buff him, because right now it’s really easy to just go and solo him (at least on a ranger), same goes with chieftan and svanir (granted they don’t need -that- much more of a buff, just slightly), personally i don’t think the objective in Khylo needs to be changed, because trebuchets can make or break your game.
Another reason i think strengthening those points would make the game better, it’s simple, it’d make it -feel- like there’s more game mode rather than how it is currently.
They sing dark, delicious notes about power and family.
As their mother, I have to grant them their wish. – Forever Fyonna
As their mother, I have to grant them their wish. – Forever Fyonna
Power D/D Necro with Wells of Suffering/Corruption = watch them bunkers melt
Pikachoops – Engineer, Fort Aspenwood
Huh? If they don’t dodge roll out of your wells almost immediately I guess, lol.
Even if you try to immobilize them, any bunker worth a kitten will at least have a few ways to remove conditions.
Huh? If they don’t dodge roll out of your wells almost immediately I guess, lol.
Even if you try to immobilize them, any bunker worth a kitten will at least have a few ways to remove conditions.
You do realize wells will cover the entire point with the exception of The Graveyard right? any bunker worth their kitten is NOT going to leave the point so you can neutralize it because that completely defeats the purpose of their existence.
They sing dark, delicious notes about power and family.
As their mother, I have to grant them their wish. – Forever Fyonna
As their mother, I have to grant them their wish. – Forever Fyonna