S/D thoughts
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Seeing thieves, and particular S/D thieves isolated is imho just wrong.
This may sound weird, but the GW2.world doesn’t evolve around thieves. It is horribly tempting to say, if “if you know my build, and can get inside the meta-game I play with fakes and evades, and know me as person, then you would know what I would/will do and would be able to counter it, but since you can’t you just need to L2P !!!”
Sorry, but that is what some thieves are essentially saying. I know the build, I know what to dodge, but “strangely” I don’t on all classes have endless evades or stuns or counters, and in these cases I think thieves have to get out of their bubble and start playing other classes to see it from the other side. How many thieves can honestly say they are prepared for everything fx an engineer of any given build can pull out? Or mesmer? Is it really needed to have to know everything in detail in every specc for every class to be able to play, or would less excessive knowledge be sufficient?
Yes, LS can be avoided, but not in some cases not if I am stunned or immobilized first … just to name a few. And yes, some classes have NO ISSUES with S/D-thieves, and some are just horrible weak vs them. While this may seem fine balance-wise, there is in some cases very little room for counter-play. That is quite frankly a horrible design.
On a side-note: Class-balance is a subset of the entire balance seen as map-layout, class-balance, utilities etc. If anyone claim it to be the other way around, I would like to see a mathematical stringent proof. But I believe there is just a misunderstand of terminology?
(edited by Poxxia.1547)
Didn’t read all of the posts but…
This passive traits, evasions, condition spam thingy we have going on here is kittened. Evades should be mechanic to avoiding something that really hurts you or disables you, instead, we spam it whenever we can because there’s no tell to predict whan is going to be cast (there’s a few exceptions). All this insta cast spam is just totally kittened.
I mainly do thief in PvP and I’m a big fan of thieves but, when I played S/D thief (before that big buff and quite alot after) I noticed that the build was just broken. It was just too good. The skill needed to be decent player with this build was minimal (as it is now for spirit rangers and such).
We need more active play and more recognizable animations and longer casts so we can react to them. They wanted to make thief to be more evasive and rely on that instead of perma stealth but when you can evade almost anything for 10s this mean something if broken for sure.
The way I see this game should be played is this:
I am a thief. I see elementalist casting phoenix on me, it is kinda fast now but I still have time to react and I dodge. Ele tries to “ride the lightning” to me, I evade that. Ofcourse he does some auto attacks meanwhile which hurt but not as much as those skills would so I don’t evade. Here comes the fun part. Because I’m a thief I can evade more and I still have one or two evades left and if Ele continues to focus on me I can survive with that. <- This is what I call survivability. Not spaming dodges + FS/LS + dodges + pop signed for more endurance + FS/LS + dodges AND autoattack meanwhile if I reeealy have to.
Look at this video Helseth posted as an example how gw2 pvp used to be played: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1T_Q_ojI0Q&feature=player_detailpage#t=48
We need that back AND more improvements of skills and especially some dumb traits that noone uses.
I am a thief. I see elementalist casting phoenix on me, it is kinda fast now but I still have time to react and I dodge. Ele tries to “ride the lightning” to me, I evade that. Ofcourse he does some auto attacks meanwhile which hurt but not as much as those skills would so I don’t evade. Here comes the fun part. Because I’m a thief I can evade more and I still have one or two evades left and if Ele continues to focus on me I can survive with that. <- This is what I call survivability. Not spaming dodges + FS/LS + dodges + pop signed for more endurance + FS/LS + dodges AND autoattack meanwhile if I reeealy have to.
And the only way the above scenario is going to work is if you hit really hard -
if you only have marginally more evades than any other class, your going to have 1 of two options
A) You’re not designed for the long fight. You have marginally more evades so you can deliver your high burst and drop your target. You are almost entirely stealth reliant for defense (and players kittening HATE stealth)
B) You need to have access to the survivability mechanics of every other class (Protection, strong regen, stability, blocks, immunes, etc etc etc).
You might remember point A, because it’s how thieves used to be – High risk, high reward, very high burst with low sustain. Players HATED it. They ceaselessly kitten ed and moaned about how fighting thieves was so unfun, they did too much damage, it wasn’t fair, etc etc etc…which is why thieves have been nerfed in a majority of the patches that have come out since launch. To compensate for this, Anet revamped S/D so thieves had a non-stealth survival option. Surprise Surprise, people hate that too.
Point B would turn thieves into a slightly different flavor of warrior – it would be boring, and remove a lot of uniqueness from the game.
Players also need to realize that just because a thief isn’t taking damage doesn’t mean they’re “Winning the fight” – those evades cost resources. When you’re fighting a warrior, his HP pool is his primary resource for surviving the fight. Maybe he’s got good regen with Signets/Adrenaline based health regen, lots of blocks, etc etc etc. Thieves main resource is evading/negating damage all together. If you get a warrior down to 25% before he stomps you, that is potentially the same as being stomped by a thief with 90% health who’s low on initaitive and blew most/all his CD’S. Both classes expended resources to fight you, it’s just more obvious with the warrior – if a second player rolled up on either of the classes, they’d be in trouble.
People just don’t like thieves. They’ll have to get over it.
If you’re a thief and haven’t
pre-ordered HOT at this point,
save yourself the money and don’t bother.
pre-ordered HOT at this point,
save yourself the money and don’t bother.
(edited by evilapprentice.6379)
Yes, as a few people said.
Infiltrator’s strike is the one thing that is keeping sword mainhand competitive. This applies to S/D and also S/P ofcourse. Without infil strike there is no doubt in my mind I would ditch sword (and probably thief altogether). However it was already nerfed with shadow return no longer breaking stun so I think it’s balanced now.
All is vain.
Yes, as a few people said.
Infiltrator’s strike is the one thing that is keeping sword mainhand competitive. This applies to S/D and also S/P ofcourse. Without infil strike there is no doubt in my mind I would ditch sword (and probably thief altogether). However it was already nerfed with shadow return no longer breaking stun so I think it’s balanced now.
No, it’s not, at least not in current meta.
In this condi spam meta, S/D thieves give you absolutely no time to react, neither to reposition yourself properly, mostly due to
1. handling an S/D thief is already hard, doing it while being chilled, feared, crippled and DOTed to death is almost impossible, especially for low hp pool classes
2. these low hp pool classes are already very team oriented ( mesmer, ele) , in some cases mostly due to unnecessary/bad thought nerfs ( ele case) or due to outstandigly strong U-skills which detracts from self sustain capabilities ( mesmer case) and since S/D thief can jump from a target to another with very little cost ( great 1vs1 capabilities, with low burst but very high sustain), S/D thief basically removes them from the meta till condi spam is fixed ( and the game becomes skill based again).
As i said, it’s not that S/D thieves are THAT OP, they’re OP in THIS meta.
Yes, as a few people said.
Infiltrator’s strike is the one thing that is keeping sword mainhand competitive. This applies to S/D and also S/P ofcourse. Without infil strike there is no doubt in my mind I would ditch sword (and probably thief altogether). However it was already nerfed with shadow return no longer breaking stun so I think it’s balanced now.
No, it’s not, at least not in current meta.
In this condi spam meta, S/D thieves give you absolutely no time to react, neither to reposition yourself properly, mostly due to
1. handling an S/D thief is already hard, doing it while being chilled, feared, crippled and DOTed to death is almost impossible, especially for low hp pool classes
2. these low hp pool classes are already very team oriented ( mesmer, ele) , in some cases mostly due to unnecessary/bad thought nerfs ( ele case) or due to outstandigly strong U-skills which detracts from self sustain capabilities ( mesmer case) and since S/D thief can jump from a target to another with very little cost ( great 1vs1 capabilities, with low burst but very high sustain), S/D thief basically removes them from the meta till condi spam is fixed ( and the game becomes skill based again).
As i said, it’s not that S/D thieves are THAT OP, they’re OP in THIS meta.
S/D thieves actually get rolled by mass condi spam , especially AoE condis which is prevalent in this meta.
Infil strike can not be spammed since shadow return range is greater than infil strike range. So therefore it can be used every 15s as a gap closer otherwise it will be counterproductive for that purpose.
All is vain.
MrBig,
There is no distinct difference between a good thief and bad thief. Lets not try raise gw2 pvp to the level of something like evo street fighter 4, alright? Because its not that, not even close and in terms of skill its currently bottom of the barrel.
To summarize what you are saying, if the evade was removed from LS, then it shouldn’t affect S/D very much right? But I’m sure you won’t agree with that. How you are trying to illustrate a effective counter against evade can be applied to the other two identical mechanics in the game aka block and dodge. But if that was the viable counter then everyone would complain even more.
The thing is you totally misunderstand my problem with evade, I have a problem with anything that remains unchecked. Period. When we have unchecked mechanics, they become overpowered. Not because they are strong per say, but there doesn’t exist a skill that is their polar opposite.
You can use the argument of follow the animation and cc, but there are too many variables to make your claim valid. We have: The game being pummeled with particle effects, we have the fact that with most things in this game you can’t even tell what is going on, you have some classes that don’t even have a viable “damage cc” in which you can intelligently use. These things just do not exist in this game.
This isn’t sf4, in sf4 you can become familiar with animations since every characters animation is very very distinct. There is a balance between when the animation is active, how long it takes to recover and how much damage it does. Hint hint a fierce punch has a long recovery making it easier to punish but it also does big damage.
In gw2, looking at LS animation, its extraordinarily fast. So fast that you only have small intervals to hit the target. This problem isn’t exclusive to thief, its present through out the game.
For a viable counter to exist, it has to be a equal force. For example, a spammable skill that interrupts evades with a 1/2 cast time would be a equal force. Get what I’m saying?
I feel anet made a mistake making gw2 more like a fast paced action game rather than evolving the original gw formula. Why? Because while they succeeded in making it pretty to watch, they failed to take into consideration to implement what makes a action game great. Gw2 is a mix of archaic mmorpg mechanics and pseudo action/fighting game mechanics. Which creates a mess.
Amd Ryzen 1800x – Amd Fury X -64GB of ram
Windows 10
Windows 10
Ive been playing d/p s/d thief for the last hour and a half…
I have to say d/p is sooooooo much easier to play then s/d..
Steal interrupts 21s cd, spammable interrupts.. dazes and ridiculous damage plus blind field. ..etc its beyond ridiculous.
Will the Real Pink Puma Please stand up?
MrBig,
There is no distinct difference between a good thief and bad thief.
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
wait
ahahahahahhhahahaAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
Dude you’re really funny.
Then explain me why i roflstomp the great majority of thieves out there, playing my same build, same weapon set, same utilities, and explain me why thieves better than me roflstomp me as hard as i do with other thieves.
You say that 1/2 secs is not enough to react, then explain me why everytime i fight thieves on my necro/warrior/engi i can beat them AND they can beat me, why i can manage to fight them and you can’t.
Wanna know ?
BECAUSE MY MAIN IS A THIEF, and i know timings, i know what a thief will do, and it’s all basic hand-eye reaction: i hit skull crack as soon as i see larcenous, he will port back, i’ll close the gap and literally 100-0 the thief in a 4 secs span, because thieves are still THAT squishy.
Of course this is just an example, you can do the same with almost all classes aside shatter mesmers ( mostly because they need to bring team oriented utility OR null field due to current meta, otherwise they would be able to stand a good fight with just a single more selfish U-skill).
If people don’t take the proper time to get better with a game, it’s not a proff fault if they lose: S/D thieves are frustrating to play against, but can be defeated.
The issue with S/D thieves is completely different.
@Excalibur
S/D thieves fare well in this meta thanks to spammable condi removal + full condi removal every 45 secs.
As an S/D thief i can 1vs1 ANY necro, even the best ones, knowing i have a good chance of winning, while almost every other classes ( aside war and MAYBE spirit ranger) will fail miserably.
I don’t fear conditions at all, unless i play very bad and get filled with condies, but in that case, it has been MY fault.
Ive been playing d/p s/d thief for the last hour and a half…
I have to say d/p is sooooooo much easier to play then s/d..Steal interrupts 21s cd, spammable interrupts.. dazes and ridiculous damage plus blind field. ..etc its beyond ridiculous.
This is not true. However ths skill floor for playing decent got quite higher because of the S/D evade build. You can do pretty well just spaming FS/LS and dodging. But there is a difference between a really good thief and a really bad one for sure. This holds true for every class/build, but currently the differences are not so distinct for some builds.
@MrBig,
What’s your traits look like? I’m guessing you took shadow’s embrace?
All is vain.
Their is definitely a difference between a good and a bad thief. If you have ever fought a thief named Martin you know what i am talking about.
Dr. Professor Evil – Engi
Stunned Girls Can’t Say No <Hawt>
Stunned Girls Can’t Say No <Hawt>
@MrBig,
What’s your traits look like? I’m guessing you took shadow’s embrace?
Absolutely not.
10-30-0-30-0 common build
Common mistake is to NOT pick pain response, which is basically an automatic, full condi cleanse every 30 secs.
So why do you not take shadow’s embrace or does it not help with condi removal much?
I see pain response, it does look like a good trait to take in this messed up meta.
All is vain.
So why do you not take shadow’s embrace or does it not help with condi removal much?
I see pain response, it does look like a good trait to take in this messed up meta.
I do not take it because i don’t need it, and because i would give up damage to take it.
Shadow arts builds have a completely different role and are not really good, unless you play cruuk build ( a very underrated build) and go for the far point assault, something seriously problematic currently due to spirit rangers being there and bodyblocking your damage with spirits.
oh shut up guys, this game is fine.
Says one of the last 10,000 or so people playing sPvP….. if you even play sPvP o.O?
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