Guild Wars 2

Hi all,

thief main here. I’m facing the issue, that burst damage feels pretty weak in the game (especially in 1on1), because close to every class has skills, that reduce their damage taken to 0, grants invulnerability or long blocks etc. This makes it far too easy to remain alive for a very long time, even under focus fire.

I do not propose to nerf or remove these skills – I know that certain classes rely on those as they have no other means to disengage or survive in the heat of everyone going batshit crazy and whiffing AoEs all over the point.
Still, it makes the concept of burst and/or +1-ing fights SERIOUSLY weak.

Let me explain:
- most of these skills have no casting time, thus no way to interrupt them
- most of these skills are unaffected by stun
- some of these skills can even be traited so they arte automatically thrown in below a certain threshold (Elixir S, Endure Pain)
- once popped, there is currently no way to strip these effects (except blocks)

Why is this problematic?
- first, it can be used to halt a burst, reposition, take a break from an ambush or similar
- all cooldowns keep recharging during this time
- with most skills, you can regularly fight back, retreat, heal yourself or whatever
- there is no limit for the reduction. You can take the full combo of all 5 enemies and not get a single scratch

This frustrates me as a thief, as my purpose is +1-ing fights and I cannot reliantly help my teammates to kill their enemies fast, because they start popping their endless invuln-chains, laugh at my damage and either kill me in return (warrior, guard) or recharge all their cooldowns and ignore me completely (ranger, ele, guard).

My question: Should there be a counter to these skills?
I’m thinking of a simple skill-property that lets you attack through or even strip these effects (similar to boonstripping). These may be traited or be granted additionally to certain skills.
I think this would add up to the classes of Roamer, Teamfighter/Offtank, Bunker and Support. We’d get some kind of “Bunker-Buster” builds, that are not incredibily dangerous to anyone, but that can prevent those obnoxious bunker guards, eles & rangers from holding any point vs 2 or even 3 enemies for too long.

What do you think?
Bonus: Which class would you like to see as the “Bunker-Buster” class?

Fhynix.2105:

- some of these skills can even be traited so they are automatically thrown in below a certain threshold (Elixir S, Endure Pain)

This is the main reason for your frustrations.

I have no problem with invul skills that requires a keypress. It rewards active playstyle, good timing, good prediction/judgemental play. On the other hand, the “auto-immune” skills feel very unrewarding to play against. Instead of “my fast reaction wins me the match”, it becomes “oh thank god the auto immune kicks in and I win”.

ANet should remove/rework the “activate immune on threshold” skills.

CC should be able to go through invulnerabilities without affecting their duration. This has always been an issue in this game.

yes! spellbreaker should counter invuln, omg so brilliant

By definition, an invulnerability should defend from all attacks. The old Aegis and the old Mesmer Mainhand sword 2 were two examples, both nerfed. If CC could penetrate invulnerability, the latter would be meaningless.

Yes, warriors in particular are annoying during the time they are untouchable. Still as one who mains thief in PvE and Mesmer in PvP, You have plenty of evade. Wait them out, then hammer them.

Fhynix.2105:

Why is this problematic?
1- first, it can be used to halt a burst, reposition, take a break from an ambush or similar
2- all cooldowns keep recharging during this time
3- with most skills, you can regularly fight back, retreat, heal yourself or whatever
4- there is no limit for the reduction. You can take the full combo of all 5 enemies and not get a single scratch

1) That’s the point of invuln, perhaps you misunderstand the meaning of it.
2) They’re supposed to.
3)
- Mist Form – can’t fight back or heal
- Elixir S – can’t fight back or heal
- Renewed Focus – can’t fight back or heal

That’s 3 out of 6, which isn’t most, it’s half. Distortion and obsidian flesh both have long cd’s. Vapor form doesn’t really count since it’s a downstate ability.

4) Again it’s called invuln for a reason, not damage reduction. Don’t know why this is so hard for you to grasp.

So in short, no, there shouldn’t be a counter. You make a mechanic to counter invuln then it will open the flood gates to make counters to counters and the cycle will never stop, removing the significance of it all together.

Countless

No. Deadeyes already get to ignore revealed with their elite, that’s more than enough.

But I agree that the passive application of invuln skills through traits needs to be removed. These skills are stupidly powerful, and should have to be manually cast.

A nice way to do it would be to reset the recharge of certain utility skills (like Improv) at a set health %, or even add a contextual button to push when they proc.

That way you can actually control when you want to use it.

OriOri.8724:

No. Deadeyes already get to ignore revealed with their elite, that’s more than enough.

But I agree that the passive application of invuln skills through traits needs to be removed. These skills are stupidly powerful, and should have to be manually cast.

Some Skills from deadeye apply revealed as soon as skill is cast before damage is done only one skill gets to reset revealed which has a cast time and is on a CD.

/gg

And revealed has zero to do with invulnerability… stealth doesn’t stop damage….

They apply revealed because its supposed to be a counterplay, and then deadeye is allowed to just remove revealed at will, on a skill with the ammo system no less.

That’s nothing more than pure kitten, and asking to ignore invuln as well just shows that thieves don’t give a kitten about balance.

OriOri.8724:

They apply revealed because its supposed to be a counterplay, and then deadeye is allowed to just remove revealed at will, on a skill with the ammo system no less.

That’s nothing more than pure kitten, and asking to ignore invuln as well just shows that thieves don’t give a kitten about balance.

On a skill with a 1/2 sec cast time and ammo system that has two separate CDs built into it and only two charges.

And one last time Stealth doesn’t negate damage.

Not even close to a Invuln

Also more and more classes are getting reveals hell some Thief skills reveal themselves at cast now before the attack even hits

Soooooo OP ooooh noooo

It’s not like every Thief desnes doesn’t have a hard counter… oh wait every Defense Thief has has a hard counter ooooh shucks.

Let’s see

Evades- Wards
Stealth-Reveal(let’s not forget revealed is being handed out like candy)
Block-Unblockable

/gg

OriOri.8724:

They apply revealed because its supposed to be a counterplay, and then deadeye is allowed to just remove revealed at will, on a skill with the ammo system no less.

As already said – you can still counter invisible thieves (or mesmers, or rangers, or engis,… stealth isnt thief-exclusive!) by cleaving and random AoE. Have you ever tried to backstab anyone these days? Chances are, you’ll die of non-targetted AoE, before you even get the opportunity.

Trigr.6481:

1) That’s the point of invuln, perhaps you misunderstand the meaning of it.
2) They’re supposed to.
3)
- Mist Form – can’t fight back or heal
- Elixir S – can’t fight back or heal
- Renewed Focus – can’t fight back or heal

That’s 3 out of 6, which isn’t most, it’s half. Distortion and obsidian flesh both have long cd’s. Vapor form doesn’t really count since it’s a downstate ability.

4) Again it’s called invuln for a reason, not damage reduction. Don’t know why this is so hard for you to grasp.

So in short, no, there shouldn’t be a counter. You make a mechanic to counter invuln then it will open the flood gates to make counters to counters and the cycle will never stop, removing the significance of it all together.

Countless

Its not “hard to grasp” for me. I understand what invuln does and I dont want to change the way it works. I only want counterplay, because it feels just so cheesy that multiple classes have a “oh-kitten” button or passive trait, that counters a whole playstyle.
Plus, I am no friend of a defensive meta where nobody dies and its completely normal to hold back various enemy burst classes by just being immune to everything they do or having a ridiculous amount of heal and invuln (looking at guards & druids) and STILL do enough damage to kill folks.

Obviously, it should be gated. If every class gets counters to this, it’s stupid. But I see an opportunity here to get some classes back into the meta. Most people think, thieves are redundant and prefer other classes in their teams. Im not sure about revs, but I think I remembered, that ppl prefered other classes over them too.
Give a counter to ONLY THESE CLASSES and you’ll have new meta builds and a new role for them to fill.

Still glad to see that some people like my idea

Fhynix.2105:

OriOri.8724:

They apply revealed because its supposed to be a counterplay, and then deadeye is allowed to just remove revealed at will, on a skill with the ammo system no less.

As already said – you can still counter invisible thieves (or mesmers, or rangers, or engis,… stealth isnt thief-exclusive!) by cleaving and random AoE. Have you ever tried to backstab anyone these days? Chances are, you’ll die of non-targetted AoE, before you even get the opportunity.

Trigr.6481:

1) That’s the point of invuln, perhaps you misunderstand the meaning of it.
2) They’re supposed to.
3)
- Mist Form – can’t fight back or heal
- Elixir S – can’t fight back or heal
- Renewed Focus – can’t fight back or heal

That’s 3 out of 6, which isn’t most, it’s half. Distortion and obsidian flesh both have long cd’s. Vapor form doesn’t really count since it’s a downstate ability.

4) Again it’s called invuln for a reason, not damage reduction. Don’t know why this is so hard for you to grasp.

So in short, no, there shouldn’t be a counter. You make a mechanic to counter invuln then it will open the flood gates to make counters to counters and the cycle will never stop, removing the significance of it all together.

Countless

Its not “hard to grasp” for me. I understand what invuln does and I dont want to change the way it works. I only want counterplay, because it feels just so cheesy that multiple classes have a “oh-kitten” button or passive trait, that counters a whole playstyle.
Plus, I am no friend of a defensive meta where nobody dies and its completely normal to hold back various enemy burst classes by just being immune to everything they do or having a ridiculous amount of heal and invuln (looking at guards & druids) and STILL do enough damage to kill folks.

Obviously, it should be gated. If every class gets counters to this, it’s stupid. But I see an opportunity here to get some classes back into the meta. Most people think, thieves are redundant and prefer other classes in their teams. Im not sure about revs, but I think I remembered, that ppl prefered other classes over them too.
Give a counter to ONLY THESE CLASSES and you’ll have new meta builds and a new role for them to fill.

Still glad to see that some people like my idea

you want to remove invuln on passives … easy… remove firts thief and any other class that cant start a burts combo from stealth( or simply remove stealth stupid mechanic but removing thief and his stupid spam mechanic (spam 3 on d/d spam 3 on p/p , you counter with a block or a evade or what the kitten have your class… great you have a long cd and they cant just respam) is a great thing to improve all the game balance mechanics)… after this is no need of the oh kitten auto proc

It would be a thief demanding a counter to invuln skills.

There is already a counter to invulnerability: conditions. It isn’t a reactive counter, but it is a build counter. Invulnerability does not grant immunity to the damage of conditions already placed on you, only the application of additional conditions while the invuln is active.

I don’t think everything needs to be capable of being reactively countered, continued damage from applied conditions and zero point contesting is drawback enough.

Even if a reactive counter were introduced it certainly should not be given to high mobility high burst builds. Getting plussed by these builds is exactly what the invuln is supposed to help against, allowing the player to draw out the engagement and counter the advantage of mobility.

Passive invuln gets a lot of hate, but I’ve also seen it be as much a detriment to the user when faced against a condi build. If high burst/pressure roamers with instant cast skills didn’t exist then there would be no need for these traits to exist because the game would be slower and players allowed more time to react to the plus.

Some kind of skill availability with a button press or recharging the skill if on cooldown seems like a fair middle ground that promotes active play while accomplishing the same goals.

Sly.9518:

OriOri.8724:

They apply revealed because its supposed to be a counterplay, and then deadeye is allowed to just remove revealed at will, on a skill with the ammo system no less.

That’s nothing more than pure kitten, and asking to ignore invuln as well just shows that thieves don’t give a kitten about balance.

On a skill with a 1/2 sec cast time and ammo system that has two separate CDs built into it and only two charges.

And one last time Stealth doesn’t negate damage.

Not even close to a Invuln

Also more and more classes are getting reveals hell some Thief skills reveal themselves at cast now before the attack even hits

Soooooo OP ooooh noooo

It’s not like every Thief desnes doesn’t have a hard counter… oh wait every Defense Thief has has a hard counter ooooh shucks.

Let’s see

Evades- Wards
Stealth-Reveal(let’s not forget revealed is being handed out like candy)
Block-Unblockable

/gg

Good to see you’re just as stubborn as ever about thieves being crap.

First of all, invulns shut down every class that tries to burst, not just thief. Its not like only thiefs are hurt by these skills going off. Secondly, I agree with you guys that passive invuln application needs to be removed immediately. Thirdly, you keep dancing around the issue that thief is already the class that ignores the most mechanics in the game. You definitely don’d need to let them ignore another one.

Thief already ignores the CD increasing aspect of Chill on their weapon skills. Thief already ignores the CD increasing mechanic of power block on their weapon skills. Thief is the only class capable of using theri 2-5 skills in immediate succession if they want to (whether or not this is agood idea doesn’t change the fact they are the only class to do this). DD can ignore immobilize on dodge, even though immobilize is supposed to stop you from dodging away. And now deadeye can ignore revealed with their elite skill. Quit whining already. Thief already ignores more game mechanics than any other class. And no class needs to be ignoring invulnerability. That is the worst design choice the devs could ever make.

And I never said stealth was equivalent to invuln. I merely said that thieves can now ignore revealed, and should not be allowed to do so, since revealed is supposed to be the counter to stealth.

I love when a warrior, guardian, rev try to block when I have s/d now that Flanking / Larcenous strike are unblockable. Oh and then there’s that basilisk venom thing too.

Fhynix.2105:

OriOri.8724:

They apply revealed because its supposed to be a counterplay, and then deadeye is allowed to just remove revealed at will, on a skill with the ammo system no less.

As already said – you can still counter invisible thieves (or mesmers, or rangers, or engis,… stealth isnt thief-exclusive!) by cleaving and random AoE. Have you ever tried to backstab anyone these days? Chances are, you’ll die of non-targetted AoE, before you even get the opportunity.

Trigr.6481:

1) That’s the point of invuln, perhaps you misunderstand the meaning of it.
2) They’re supposed to.
3)
- Mist Form – can’t fight back or heal
- Elixir S – can’t fight back or heal
- Renewed Focus – can’t fight back or heal

That’s 3 out of 6, which isn’t most, it’s half. Distortion and obsidian flesh both have long cd’s. Vapor form doesn’t really count since it’s a downstate ability.

4) Again it’s called invuln for a reason, not damage reduction. Don’t know why this is so hard for you to grasp.

So in short, no, there shouldn’t be a counter. You make a mechanic to counter invuln then it will open the flood gates to make counters to counters and the cycle will never stop, removing the significance of it all together.

Countless

Its not “hard to grasp” for me. I understand what invuln does and I dont want to change the way it works. I only want counterplay, because it feels just so cheesy that multiple classes have a “oh-kitten” button or passive trait, that counters a whole playstyle.
Plus, I am no friend of a defensive meta where nobody dies and its completely normal to hold back various enemy burst classes by just being immune to everything they do or having a ridiculous amount of heal and invuln (looking at guards & druids) and STILL do enough damage to kill folks.

Obviously, it should be gated. If every class gets counters to this, it’s stupid. But I see an opportunity here to get some classes back into the meta. Most people think, thieves are redundant and prefer other classes in their teams. Im not sure about revs, but I think I remembered, that ppl prefered other classes over them too.
Give a counter to ONLY THESE CLASSES and you’ll have new meta builds and a new role for them to fill.

Still glad to see that some people like my idea

Out of every invuln listed only elixir S can proc passively when traited, that’s an argument claiming that the user should have to actively cast the skill, same with desperate decoy for mesmer, it’s a passive stealth threshold proc that I wish wasn’t in the game, and I play mesmer main. But the rest of the stuff you’re spouting, isn’t. And when it comes to counterplay, of course it’s supposed to counter, it’s the top defensive mechanic in the game, I’m going to quote Allarius because what he said is pretty on point concerning the topic.

Allarius.5670:

There is already a counter to invulnerability: conditions. It isn’t a reactive counter, but it is a build counter. Invulnerability does not grant immunity to the damage of conditions already placed on you, only the application of additional conditions while the invuln is active.

4 out of the 8 classes have invuln abilities, which isn’t “every class”, sorry but exaggerating the facts isn’t helping your case. It just seems like a very biased argument by you because whatever build you’re running “I’m assuming power” is being countered by invuln. Just because you encounter a slight bump in the road doesn’t justify an easy counter. Sorry not sorry

Countless