Guild Wars 2

I was looking over the new traits system at Dulfy and it struck me that Anet is now forcing us to go the whole hog into a specialization whether we want to or not. We can no longer pick and choose a low tier trait from another line to synergize with our builds.

Are they doing this to simplify things? Because I like simplification, but not at the cost of build diversity.

It reminds me of the time they removed jewels from PvP because “It was too confusing”. That again removed some builds who were depending on that specific stat combination to be effective.

Isn’t the goal to have as many diverse builds as possible instead of one of a specific set number? This seems to be a philosophy of “Play my way, or it’s the highway”.

Another effect is that traits also now compete with one another for a specific spot – once again removing build diversity as in the current system, I can utilize two major traits, or two adept traits.

Simplicity at the cost of diversity and innovative playstyles?

If something has less moving parts its easier to see the problems and get them repaired faster correct?

Also:

Isn’t the goal to have as many diverse builds as possible instead of one of a specific set number?

You can count the effective builds on one hand. With the change there should be far more effective builds due to better balance.

I would rather have more powerful and meaningful traits and a better balanced game than what we have now and its what Anet seems to be doing.

Sigmoid.7082:

If something has less moving parts its easier to see the problems and get them repaired faster correct?

Also:

Isn’t the goal to have as many diverse builds as possible instead of one of a specific set number?

You can count the effective builds on one hand. With the change there should be far more effective builds due to better balance.

I would rather have more powerful and meaningful traits and a better balanced game than what we have now and its what Anet seems to be doing.

You don’t understand how meta builds become meta builds. It isn’t that they are the best. It is that a top player uses it and does well. Most players in the game are followers.

the point is that is doesn’t matter if there are 5 balanced specs for each class. You’ll still see 80% of people playing one of them.

As to the OP’s point, I agree that this will remove build diversity. I like the current system better. If I want two adept tier traits, that should be fine.

no, theyre greatly improving build diversity. this is being done by allowing 3 GM’s. as long as all GM’s are competitive, we’ll have lots of different builds. for example, the ranger will have at least 5 new and effective builds open up from the changes. will any of them become meta? impossible to say now.

that being said, id much rather we have LESS builds and more balance. if each prof has 3 viable and balanced builds, then we’re in a great shape.

Doesn’t dispute my point that with less options the game is far easier to balance. Because its far easier to balance its easier to add more to it, as they have said this paves the way for adding more specs to the game.

You have 3 slots for specs and in HoT you will have 6 of them. That means you have 20 combinations of trait lines and in each trait line you have 27 different combinations of trait set up. Given that traits are actually going to be more meaningful more of the potential builds coming out of those still large number of combinations will be worth while and if something is out of whack because there is less to take into account you can change and balance the game faster than every 6 months.

Having a more balanced game that is more frequently updated resulting in further balance changes and more meta shifts is something I would happily welcome.

EDIT:
You have 20 combos of 3 specs, 81 ways to configure your 3 specs differently so you should have 1620 different builds possible. Dont trust my math though sure i missed something but that is MORE than enough for diversity as well as balance.

Their goal is to make each specialization feel like you’re specializing in a different type of thing. The choices between the traits by this system are made more impactful as each trait in each slot should ideally give you a different playstyle to achieve a similar goal, and the GM traits are accordingly buffed to be more build defining.

For example if you’re a condition necro, in the GM slot of curses, there are no power traits in that slot because they wanted curses to be the place where necromancers go to specialize in condition damage, not power. Additionally the three traits in the GM slot all give very different ways to play a condition build. Lingering curses is a slower, attrition based choice in which conditions gradually overwhelm the enemy through tremendous amounts of condition duration, while terror is more for burst condition application, and parasitic contagion (15% of condition damage ticks heal you) is for a sustain focused condition build.

The only problem is that not all slots in all specializations are as finely tuned to offer different utilitiy and different playstyles as well as this specific example. For example, in arcana for elementalist, not that elemental attunement will be moved, I seriously doubt anyone would take elemental surge over evasive arcana.

Sigmoid.7082:

Doesn’t dispute my point that with less options the game is far easier to balance. Because its far easier to balance its easier to add more to it, as they have said this paves the way for adding more specs to the game.

precisely. this is why they went the GM route. builds should revolve around GM’s and their combinations, not adept traits. this way, when you balance the GM’s, you balance the build. the tricky part is making all of them competitive while also making adepts and masters decent.

This implies there ever was any build diversity. There hasn’t been and never will because people will always find optimal ways to play that rule out other “options.”

Alexander.9810:

and never will because people will always find optimal ways to play that rule out other “options.”

^that’s not true. not if they balance the game around roles. if each profession can play multiple roles, and if every build of a certain role is balanced with the others, people will be running different variations. each variant needs to do the same thing but in a different way, and this is where style and preference come in.

Anet isn’t going to do that. They’re going to take their trademark lazy approach of throw a bunch of stuff at the players and let them figure it out, waiting 6 months before they fix any balance issues.

im not sure about that. with the upcoming spec revamp, theyre infinitely more systematic compared to, say, a year ago. a lot of the spec changes make a lot of sense, which was indeed surprising to me. im giving them the benefit of the doubt on this patch. we’ll see.

Saying the current system has more choice is subscribing to an illusion; at least half the trait selections are never worth taking, and others are overshadowed. The “low-hanging fruit” problem with powerful adept and master traits also hinders balance and variety.

The new system has a few goals:

• Give each trait line a cohesive playstyle improvement and theme. They tend to be along the lines of a class mechanic, power damage, condi damage, self-survival, group support. When you choose a trait line, you’ll have a good idea of what it should be doing.
• Provide meaningful choices at each level. Currently, there are very few true choices at any trait level. You always have the clear best choice or one of two. By making traits which do similar things compete against each other, ANet can add more variety; players can’t just take every damage trait.
• Improve balance. In the current system, each trait doesn’t just compete with its peers; it competes with every trait in the line and every other trait for that profession. That’s too much to balance and you’ll always have bad traits if you’re trying to keep things interesting.

mistsim.2748:

im not sure about that. with the upcoming spec revamp, theyre infinitely more systematic compared to, say, a year ago. a lot of the spec changes make a lot of sense, which was indeed surprising to me. im giving them the benefit of the doubt on this patch. we’ll see.

Tomorrows ready up will be big for sure. Since they will also be the final set dulfy should have the build calc for specs updates and we can start theory crafting more accurate builds.

Exedore.6320:

Saying the current system has more choice is subscribing to an illusion; at least half the trait selections are never worth taking, and others are overshadowed. The “low-hanging fruit” problem with powerful adept and master traits also hinders balance and variety.

The new system has a few goals:

• Give each trait line a cohesive playstyle improvement and theme. They tend to be along the lines of a class mechanic, power damage, condi damage, self-survival, group support. When you choose a trait line, you’ll have a good idea of what it should be doing.
• Provide meaningful choices at each level. Currently, there are very few true choices at any trait level. You always have the clear best choice or one of two. By making traits which do similar things compete against each other, ANet can add more variety; players can’t just take every damage trait.
• Improve balance. In the current system, each trait doesn’t just compete with its peers; it competes with every trait in the line and every other trait for that profession. That’s too much to balance and you’ll always have bad traits if you’re trying to keep things interesting.

Exactly. By scaling down and combining some traits they are getting rid of those choices that were garbage(like the falling damage ones) as well as allowing for more traits because you don’t have to take 2, 3 or more traits that synergize across one or more trait lines.

Shadow.1345:

Exedore.6320:

Saying the current system has more choice is subscribing to an illusion; at least half the trait selections are never worth taking, and others are overshadowed. The “low-hanging fruit” problem with powerful adept and master traits also hinders balance and variety.

The new system has a few goals:

• Give each trait line a cohesive playstyle improvement and theme. They tend to be along the lines of a class mechanic, power damage, condi damage, self-survival, group support. When you choose a trait line, you’ll have a good idea of what it should be doing.
• Provide meaningful choices at each level. Currently, there are very few true choices at any trait level. You always have the clear best choice or one of two. By making traits which do similar things compete against each other, ANet can add more variety; players can’t just take every damage trait.
• Improve balance. In the current system, each trait doesn’t just compete with its peers; it competes with every trait in the line and every other trait for that profession. That’s too much to balance and you’ll always have bad traits if you’re trying to keep things interesting.

Exactly. By scaling down and combining some traits they are getting rid of those choices that were garbage(like the falling damage ones) as well as allowing for more traits because you don’t have to take 2, 3 or more traits that synergize across one or more trait lines.

The fall damage traits are still there though.

I’d also say that one of the biggest improvements is merging similar traits together. For example, necromancer staff needed 4 traits to fully power up the marks of the weapons in terms of damage, cooldown, lf generation, and radius. The damage trait got cut (since marks are kitten for power damage) and the lf gen and cooldown traits got merged, so now you don’t have to give up half your build just to make one weapon more functional.

On other classes they’re doing that a lot with traits that effect utility skills, and most of the weapon cooldown traits are being changed to promote active play rather than a flat cooldown reducation (look at duelists discipline or the pledge in the mesmer line).

nearlight.3064:

The fall damage traits are still there though.

Yes, but they now activate on events in addition to fall damage, such as being CC’ed. They were incomplete in the original preview.

Exedore.6320:

nearlight.3064:

The fall damage traits are still there though.

Yes, but they now activate on events in addition to fall damage, such as being CC’ed. They were incomplete in the original preview.

okay, that wasn’t clear in your original post.

This is so rude of me, but I didn’t read the initial post. I’m just responding to the thread title. In a literal sense, yes this will decrease build diversity. However, this change will increase diversity of viable builds.

I’m too lazy to look at the numbers, but speaking of Mesmer, if there’s a possibility of 50+ different builds but only 1 of them is arguably effective in each game mode, what’s the point of build diversity???

I see the new changes as consolidating options and increasing the overall effectiveness of most builds. It’ll be easier to balance. In conclusion to reiterate: less overall build diversity, more viability of available builds. My body is ready and willing to accept such changes.

nearlight.3064:

Exedore.6320:

nearlight.3064:

The fall damage traits are still there though.

Yes, but they now activate on events in addition to fall damage, such as being CC’ed. They were incomplete in the original preview.

okay, that wasn’t clear in your original post.

Yeah that’s why I said combining of traits in that sentence. On their own they were garbage and nobody would take them.

What I don’t understand is with the proposed changes, how do you “define” a build? We’ll be able to max out 3 trait lines. 3 trait lines out of 6. We’ll pick 3 GM traits.. how does that narrow down or make someone a “specialist”?

Right now, we can only max out 2 trait lines. That to me seems more “specializing” then 3 trait lines. I guess it depends on how many additional trait lines they plan on giving us. If we end up with 9 trait lines, then I guess picking 3 out of 9 would be pretty “defining” but right now, seems like 3 is a lot to “specialize” a character.

@slim

I think the “specialization” part comes from future Elite Specs, because these open up certain abilities and skills you wouldn’t have access to from your core trait specs. Like you said, this will become more apparent as they roll out more Elite Specs. It makes sense to me.

Besides, no Mesmer outside of PvE can viably spec into 2 grandmasters at a time. And our lack of viability in PvE content is a-whole-nother topic. The change will definitely give viable options to a lot of different Mesmer builds.

SlimChance.6593:

What I don’t understand is with the proposed changes, how do you “define” a build? We’ll be able to max out 3 trait lines. 3 trait lines out of 6. We’ll pick 3 GM traits.. how does that narrow down or make someone a “specialist”?

Each trait line should have a more narrow focus than it does on live, but contain most, if not all, of the current traits related to that focus.

For example, if you want a condition damage build, then there’s a trait line that caters to that and most of the condition damage-related traits are gone from other lines. Each profession has a trait line that works well with their profession mechanic. There’s typically a support line, and a self-survival line as well.

Elementalist was the most complete from the first preview. The others should be further along with the preview tomorrow.

Exedore.6320:

Elementalist was the most complete from the first preview. The others should be further along with the preview tomorrow.

I hope they’re not just further along, but nearly finished altogether aside from slight tweaks. I want this update out as soon as the possibly can.

nearlight.3064:

Exedore.6320:

Elementalist was the most complete from the first preview. The others should be further along with the preview tomorrow.

I hope they’re not just further along, but nearly finished altogether aside from slight tweaks. I want this update out as soon as the possibly can.

Considering the live streaming is tonight I would assume they are done.