Guild Wars 2

Ohoni.6057:

That is a poorly designed system. Players should not have to choose between “least bad alternatives,” they should have actually good paths available to them.

i’m bored, let’s not go down this rabbit hole

do you actually have any critique on the matchmaking or the pip/tier/division system or are you just going to whinge about the wings

Ohoni.6057:

Basically, they have a mechanic that is in conflict with the reward mechanism. If the intent is that players rise to a certain point and then “settle” and stay there, then they can’t tie the reward mechanisms to consistent advancement. If they do tie the rewards to consistent advancement, then they need to design the system to consistently advance players that make a genuine effort.

issue being that they HAVE created a system that ties the rewards to people putting in a genuine effort, the only problem is that your definition of genuine effort is not theirs.

you put forward a genuine effort by getting better at the game and building a better team so that you push your MMR such that to reach a 1:1 WL ratio the game needs to put you against better people

and to put you against better people, it needs to put you in a higher division, thereby giving you those rewards

the rest of this is kind of irrelevant because you’re really assuming that a skilled player can’t have a meaningful contribution on whether a game is won or lost, which is blatantly untrue, and completely skips over the point that if you want to not rely on the luck of the draw, you can just compose your own team

just grinding without actually trying does not create an actual effort. you can spit chips all you like about your chances of getting the wings being jeopardized but at the end of the day the rewards are slaved to the system and the system has to stand on its own merit rather than being a highway to shinies.

issue being that they HAVE created a system that ties the rewards to people putting in a genuine effort, the only problem is that your definition of genuine effort is not theirs.

No, not really. You can grind away at it day after day, hundreds of matches in, you can even “git gud” and do a great job in most of your matches, and yet if you end up on poor teams, you won’t get anywhere. I know I haven’t been playing as hard as some, I only do my three matches a day unless I get on a roll, but I’ve played 19 matches this season, and won around 1/3 of them, and how many pips do I have for that effort? ONE. And I’d wager it’ll disappear at some point tomorrow because that’s been the pattern so far.

You can argue in favor of that outcome all you like, but as a player and a customer, I can tell you for a fact that I do not enjoy that.

Their goal should be HAPPY PLAYERS, and systems that end up with fewer happy players than upset ones cannot be justified in any way.

the rest of this is kind of irrelevant because you’re really assuming that a skilled player can’t have a meaningful contribution on whether a game is won or lost, which is blatantly untrue,

Eh, that’s a bit of an exaggeration of my position. A skilled player can certainly have a meaningful impact, but only so much. A single great player, or even a couple of great players, cannot lead a terrible team to victory against a better team. It’s a team effort. A skilled player, IF he has a build well suited to the task, is capable of turning the tide in several close match-ups, tipping the balance in his teams favor, but if there isn’t a reasonable balance to start with then there’s not much any one player can do.

He can take any point he sets his sights on, but it would still be pointless if the rest of the team loses them just as fast. He can hold one point for the entire match, but it’s pointless if the rest of the team can’t hold at least one other one. He can shout out the perfect strategies for each other team member to be doing, and it would be worthless if they can’t execute, or don’t even listen. You greatly overestimate the value of a single good player in a solo queue team.

and completely skips over the point that if you want to not rely on the luck of the draw, you can just compose your own team

And how so? Where does this “team” come from, if not the luck of the draw? Sure, I could put out an LFG and scoop up other players, but they are no more likely to be a good team than what the solo queue gives me. Maybe after several matches we could cull off weaker players and pick up some new ones and eventually get a solid team, but then we’re already an hour or more into the process. Then the next day rolls around and who knows how many of those players will be around and interested in grouping?

Plus there are difficulties in the matchmaking, like how even groups of two will make it more likely that you’ll be matched against well-managed and coordinated teams of 4-5, or how teaming with players of a higher division makes it likely you’ll be facing opponents from their division, and thus of much higher skill level than what you’d be facing in your own division (towards the end of the season, at least).

If you’re the sort that PvPs constantly and hangs out with a lot of PvPers, then it might not be so hard to build a skilled team, but for the casual player it’s not as “well why don’t you just do it?” as you make it out to be.

Ohoni.6057:

You can argue in favor of that outcome all you like, but as a player and a customer, I can tell you for a fact that I do not enjoy that.

Their goal should be HAPPY PLAYERS, and systems that end up with fewer happy players than upset ones cannot be justified in any way.

by your own admission you don’t like pvp you’re impossible to please, why should they bother

by your own admission you don’t like pvp you’re impossible to please, why should they bother

Because this isn’t “PvP Wars.”

If sPvP were a completely standalone product, or even if they’d kept it completely segregated like in the halcyon days of launch, then you’d be 100% right. “Don’t like PvP? Kitten off then!” I’d back you 100% on that.

But that’s not the current state of the game. In the current state of the game, they are making items that can ONLY be earned via PvP, and which you can then bring to other areas of the game. If you don’t play PvP, you can’t have those items.

So sorry, PvP isn’t for PvPers anymore, it’s also for filthy casuals, and that’s not our fault, that’s ANet’s fault. They chose to make it that way, and so that’s how it is, and you’re going to have to accept that. Now many of us have offered suggestions to fix that, mainly by having alternate ways of earning those things that don’t require non-PvPers to PvP, to which the response from PvPers was “noooooo mah specials!!!!” So here’s where we are, you have to put up with us junking up your gameplay mode and complaining about things that might not matter at all to players who genuinely want to be there.

And yes, our complaints do matter, because even though we don’t enjoy PvP, we do want to enjoy the rest of the game, we do want to have an overall pleasant GW2 experience, because it’s all one product, and if we get too frustrated with the PvP side of things, it cuts into our enjoyment of the rest of the game, and ultimately our willingness to spend in the gem store, or to buy the next expansion, or whatever other ways ANet would prefer we spend money. And of course there are more of us than there are of you.

So sorry.

If you’d like to get rid of us, I’m right there with you, figure out a way that we don’t have to choose between having to play PvP we won’t enjoy, or never getting the thing we want to get, and we’ll be out of your hair FOREVER. Until then though, you’re stuck with us.

Sorry.

You guys gotta stop tossing the cliché: “get gud & curry matches”.
By saying this, you are showing acceptance of the algorithm’s poor gauge on how to create matches rather than encouraging the idea of fixing it. I mean simply put: Why in the hell should a player ever be placed in a match so bad, that he must be expected to carry four players who can’t pull their own weight if he wants a win? The fact that this happens so often in Guild Wars 2 “which is supposed to be a team game, not a 1v5 carry all game”, shows that something is very wrong with the algorithm’s ability to form reasonable matches.

Stop arguing with each other and start agreeing that there is indeed a problem with match making. This problem is much deeper than leagues, divisions or pips. The algorithm itself seriously needs attention and it needs new implementations to allow it to gauge current meta builds, how effective they are when or when not paired together and to adjust matches accordingly. A good start would be to prevent any & all class stacking from ranked matches. Even that simply fix would do wonders to help balance match ups.

Hmm, if you’re really not enjoying PvP Ohoni, I’d say it’s really not worth forcing yourself to do it, purely to get the wings. If at a point a game isn’t fun for you, I don’t think there’s point in playing it.

This isn’t the best of examples, but I play a lot of Mario Kart 8. I unlocked all the vehicle parts a long time ago, but I still play the game a lot. The reason I play it, is because I find the game really fun to play. I don’t need a reward for playing it, because the satisfaction of just playing it is enough.

Putting lots of hours into something that you’re not enjoying (apart from stuff like work obviously), just seems pointless to me. Is it really worth the hours and hours of something that you hate, just for a shiny graphic on your character’s back?

Hmm, if you’re really not enjoying PvP Ohoni, I’d say it’s really not worth forcing yourself to do it, purely to get the wings. If at a point a game isn’t fun for you, I don’t think there’s point in playing it.

This isn’t the best of examples, but I play a lot of Mario Kart 8. I unlocked all the vehicle parts a long time ago, but I still play the game a lot. The reason I play it, is because I find the game really fun to play. I don’t need a reward for playing it, because the satisfaction of just playing it is enough.

Yeah, but the thing is, I really do enjoy the PvE elements of the game, when I can play them, and the reason I want the wings is so I can use them in the PvE parts of the game. I mean you can’t even USE wings in PvP, aside from goofing around in the waiting room.

To borrow your Mariokart example, what if you still loved Mariokart, enjoyed playing it every single day, still intended to play it every day for years to come, but there was one mode of it that you didn’t enjoy, that balloon popping mode or whatever.

And what if there was a kart model that turned out was really awesome looking to you, based off your favorite franchise or something, and it would make you super happy if you could use that skin while playing in the parts of the game you enjoyed. To earn it, however, you’d have to play the mode you hated for about an hour a day, for about four months in total.

So you’re left with the choice, spend those 120+ hours playing a mode that you don’t enjoy, or NEVER have that kart model that you would really enjoy having. Neither choice is a good option, so what is the benefit in forcing you to choose between the lesser of two bad options? Why shouldn’t they offer a truly good option where you could earn the item you want while enjoying the gameplay that you’re experiencing to earn it?

And it’s funny that people in this thread keep telling me that I should just stop PvPing, because in the raid thread they’re telling me the exact opposite, that if I want the raid armor I should start raiding several hours a day until I “git gud” and start clearing the raids. Why is it that neither camp is actually interested in listening?

Ohoni.6057:

Hmm, if you’re really not enjoying PvP Ohoni, I’d say it’s really not worth forcing yourself to do it, purely to get the wings. If at a point a game isn’t fun for you, I don’t think there’s point in playing it.

This isn’t the best of examples, but I play a lot of Mario Kart 8. I unlocked all the vehicle parts a long time ago, but I still play the game a lot. The reason I play it, is because I find the game really fun to play. I don’t need a reward for playing it, because the satisfaction of just playing it is enough.

Yeah, but the thing is, I really do enjoy the PvE elements of the game, when I can play them, and the reason I want the wings is so I can use them in the PvE parts of the game. I mean you can’t even USE wings in PvP, aside from goofing around in the waiting room.

To borrow your Mariokart example, what if you still loved Mariokart, enjoyed playing it every single day, still intended to play it every day for years to come, but there was one mode of it that you didn’t enjoy, that balloon popping mode or whatever.

And what if there was a kart model that turned out was really awesome looking to you, based off your favorite franchise or something, and it would make you super happy if you could use that skin while playing in the parts of the game you enjoyed. To earn it, however, you’d have to play the mode you hated for about an hour a day, for about four months in total.

So you’re left with the choice, spend those 120+ hours playing a mode that you don’t enjoy, or NEVER have that kart model that you would really enjoy having. Neither choice is a good option, so what is the benefit in forcing you to choose between the lesser of two bad options? Why shouldn’t they offer a truly good option where you could earn the item you want while enjoying the gameplay that you’re experiencing to earn it?

And it’s funny that people in this thread keep telling me that I should just stop PvPing, because in the raid thread they’re telling me the exact opposite, that if I want the raid armor I should start raiding several hours a day until I “git gud” and start clearing the raids. Why is it that neither camp is actually interested in listening?

Well, I actually love the battle mode in Mario Kart, but in Mario Kart 8, they really screwed battle mode up, to the point that it may as well not even exist in the game. I played battle mode a lot in Mario Kart Wii though. As a result of how they screwed it up, I don’t play battle mode, because it’s just not enjoyable in Mario Kart 8.

Let’s say for examples sake though, there was some kind of cool looking skin in a mode I didn’t like. It wouldn’t be enough to tide me over to play the mode, because cosmetics don’t really mean much to me. I think it’s cool and all, but cosmetic items have never been a driving force for me to play something. That’s why I’ve never bothered with any of the things in GW2, like the snowy shoulder things, that make snowflakes fall around your character.

We obviously have different mindsets on these things. Cosmetic items seem very important to you, but not to me, so it’s a no brainer for me to just ignore a game/game mode if I don’t enjoy it.

If you feel like getting the wings will feel worth putting up with a mode you dislike, go for it. I personally wouldn’t bother with it though, but it’s entirely up to you.

Ohoni.6057:

And it’s funny that people in this thread keep telling me that I should just stop PvPing, because in the raid thread they’re telling me the exact opposite, that if I want the raid armor I should start raiding several hours a day until I “git gud” and start clearing the raids. Why is it that neither camp is actually interested in listening?

neither camp is telling you anything different. the pvpers are saying either play pvp to get your wings or dont pvp cuz you hate it. the raiders are saying either figure out how to complete raids to get your armor or dont raid cuz you hate it. neither camp is agreeing that the rewards you get for completing the content should be diluted by offering access in other ways. both camps will surely agree that offering other different legendaries/skins that are similar to the wings/armor but are not the wings/armor for doing other content is completely acceptable and definitely a good change.

Everything works great this season.

1.) Have you checked Twitch today? 2500 viewers were watching Pro League. That is a high number of people. In the past there were even more viewers but now there were 2500 viewers. Sure, some of them were for precursors or miniature rewards, but still this high number of viewers shows the game is in a good position and we should all keep a positive atitude.

2.) Have you checked Metabattle? Sure you did, because most players copy builds from that website. 8 professions out of 9 are considered meta. This has to be the best season ever just for this reason. It’s a balance, finally it’s a huge balance! There are no 1 or 2 professions dominating the game (like Necro last season), but we have 8 of 9 professions/classes holding the meta.