Guild Wars 2

Leeto.1570:

1) Because when compared to every other zerker its not hit and run, its hit retreat hit retreat hit run or hit hit hit hit run.
2) And the fact that thief is balanced around idea that if they exhaust initiative for one thing then they cant use it for something else makes them broken.
3) As i said previously in theory it would be fine that if thief exhausts all initiative for killing someone then he has no defense left, but if hes in situation where he doesnt need any defense then he just did OP dmg output with no downside.
Same with infiltrators arrow, if he uses all ini to get to point then he cant kill anyone on that point and that would be balanced but if there is noone on the point then again he used all initiative in OP way while having no downside to it.
4) On any other class you take risks, if you use that lightning flash for decap you cant use it to run away, if you use that fear to interrupt you cant use it get melee off you, you use that immobilize to stop someone from coming to you, you cant use it to stop him from getting away.
5) And others take these things in consideration yet with thief its all up to him noone knows how much initiative he has and will he be able to interrupt your heal or do you have to use stability to protect the heal etc.

Maybe another solution would be adding initiative somewhere on portrait so you know with what you are dealing and what to expect (same should be done for death shroud cause atm when you engage necro you have no idea how much life force he has and that gives RNG aspect to battle too)

1) So the actual problem you have isn’t that the thief can do what it can do, you have a problem with the thief being a snowflake class, in that other playstyles don’t have comparable hit and run tactics.

This is why I wish ANet would have just scaled the elementalists Ride the Lightning with toughness, the higher your toughness the higher RTL’s recharge. The reason they nerfed it is specifically, because they wanted only the thief to do exactly what it does (which at least one class needs to do to allow for creating numbers advantages/decaps). Keeping RTL at 15 seconds for recharge and 1550 range allowed elementalists to be insanely mobile bunkers, which would make them a clear favorite in taking up the mobility role. That’s why scaling RTL with toughness would have been a good option.

Just to be clear again, there’s no problem with the thief being a snowflake, people just don’t like that their class can’t do what the thief does, and it’s a lot easier to argue the thief is somehow OP because no other class has comparible mobility. Actually Warrior and Ranger do, but they don’t have blinks, and ele does too, but not as frequent access to that mobility.

2) This is called a resource pool, and has been established in numerous games for decades. There’s really nothing to talk about here.

3) These are examples of effectively managing your resource pool. A similar concept applies to all other classes. It’s called managing your resources, whether those be mobility resources, defensive resources, offensive resources, utility resources that can be used multiple ways, etc. This goes back to point 1 and 2 where some people feel it’s unfair that the thief is a snowflake with a resource pool and can exaust all their resources into 1 task and temporarily be useless at everything else.

The point about exhausting all your initiative on mobility would be valid if you could lock the other team out of using a thief as well. People just don’t like that the thief is the only class that has the mobility that it does with blinks. If ele still had a 15 second RTL with Lightning flash, you wouldn’t see people saying thief is OP, because of this. You’d see people saying Ele and Thief can do this, so why can’t my class.

4) On thief if you use up your initiative to fight, you can’t use it to get away. Like point 2, there’s really nothing to say about this.

5) Necro doesn’t show death shroud available, warrior doesn’t show adrenaline available, elementalist doesn’t show what attunements it can swap to, mesmer doesn’t show what shatters it can use. Engi doesn’t show what Toolkit skills are off cooldown. Ranger doesn’t show when it will be able to swap pets. Guardian doesn’t show the recharge on it’s virtues. You can’t just make a couple class mechanics completely transparent without making changes to rebalance all of them.

tl;dr
I think this will summarize everything fairly well and I get it, people don’t like that there’s a snowflake class. To put it bluntly, people either want the snowflake as “ugly” as some of the others or they want some of the others to be as “beautiful” as the snowflake.

Hello all, Kang Dankey master thief here to help u nubs.

I think thief is too strong so need redesign because its ez game ez lyfe wen i wreck kids. IF u do the math initiative is 2x damage from other classes and can do so much damage at once cus no cooldown. How anet lets this idk but i like it.

Another funny observation from a GW to GW2 comparison:
Since their implementation on GW, assassin along with their teleports were a regular nerf bat target, because they’d most often make map positioning and map designs in general completely trivial and spikes virtually unprottable (also because their chain combos are largely armor ignoring due to low base weapon damage and high attack bonuses from skills). The issue was more or less settled only after an aftercast was added to most teleports, so instant and ez mode spikes were no longer an option, or at least had a relatively high cooldown to them. Yet the few teleports which avoided the nerf bat can STILL pose problems in some builds and some parts of pvp (pve is infested with ports anyway).
How someone could have thought that taking a 180° turn on that matter was a good idea, and even decided to add in stealth and eliminate cooldowns, is beyond me, but here’s the result, so take it or quit, because you won’t be seeing a change in that stance on Anet side. Given the sheer amount of other cheese in the game, hitting thieves with the nerf bat would only allow the next closest cheese to take over.

KarlaGrey.5903:

Another funny observation from a GW to GW2 comparison:
Since their implementation on GW, assassin along with their teleports were a regular nerf bat target, because they’d most often make map positioning and map designs in general completely trivial and spikes virtually unprottable (also because their chain combos are largely armor ignoring due to low base weapon damage and high attack bonuses from skills). The issue was more or less settled only after an aftercast was added to most teleports, so instant and ez mode spikes were no longer an option, or at least had a relatively high cooldown to them. Yet a couple teleports which haven’t been nerfed remain to this day, and can STILL post problems in some parts of pvp (pve is infested with ports anyway).
How someone could possibly have thought that taking a 180° turn on that matter was a good idea, and even decided to add in stealth and eliminate cooldowns, is beyond me, but here’s the result, so take it or quit, because you won’t be seeing a change in that stance on Anet side.

Prot reaction time was the issue that was addressed by aftercasts, and there was no downed state to recover from a spike and no dodge rolls/readily available self defense.

Teleports in this game are countered by dodge rolls/active defense skills and the downed state. Mesmer, Thief, and Guardian all have readily available offensive ports. You can’t even argue snowflake about this.

It had nothing to do with reaction time, but with the fact there was NO time to preprot, because the sin would just teleport in, spam his 1-3 chain and port out. Kinda like what you see in GW2. The only effective method at fighting such cheese was bringing a couple of very specific skills for self defense (and either gimper your own mobility, or take high cooldown skills which provided defense and also some mobility), so your point on self-defense is void – the self-def was there even in GW1, but a situation in which a single class forces all the others to adapt is self-explanatory in and off itself, and all the subsequent nerfes to the class were well-warranted.

Moreover, you are also ignoring the fact thieves have virtually no cooldowns, while the same does in no way apply to dodge rolls and defense skills on other classes (with necros being the best case in point on low dodge roll availability, and ds facetanking only works when they build up a fair amount of it).
Also, dodge rolls and active/passive def skills are in abudance not because of teleports, but because there is no dedicated healing class anymore.

As a matter of fact, teleports (unlike leaps, mind you) are a terrible addition to any pvp game, simply because they have cheeze embedded in their very essence – they trivialize positioning, trivialize map designs, and even trivialize a large chunk of pve (especially in synergy with stealth).
I dare say Anet shot themselves in the foot big time when they opted for classes which are designed around mechanics such as teleprots, stealth, and pets, and while most genuine pvpers had that one figured out shortly after release, many knew it already from the alpha/beta testings (naturally, all suggestions and advice to change those mechanics was completely ignored).

KarlaGrey.5903:

1) It has nothing to do with reaction time, but with the fact there was NO time to preprot, because the sin would just teleport in, spam hisd 1-4 and port out. Kinda like what you see in GW2. 2) The only effective method at fighting such cheese was bringing a couple of very specific skills for self defense (and either gimper your own mobility, or take high cooldown skills which provided defense and also some mobility), so your point on self-defense is void – it was there and available, but it’s a pretty good indication something is amiss, when a single class forces all the others to adapt.
3) You also ignore the fact thieves have virtually no cooldowns, while the same does in no way apply to dodge rolls and defense skills on other classes (with necros being the best case in point on low dodge roll availability, and ds facetanking only works when they amounted a fair ). 4) Dodge rolls and active/passive def skills are in abudance not because of teleports but because of no dedicated healing class.
5)As a matter of fact, teleports (unlike leaps) are a terrible addition to any pvp game, simply because they have cheeze embedded in their very essence – they trivialize positioning, trivialize map designs, and can trivialize much of the content in pve (especially in synergy with stealth).

1) An aftercast, creating a delay between a teleport and inflicting damage, has nothing to do with reaction time? Really?

It only has to do with ignoring pre-prots? Because people didn’t deal with pre-prots via disenchants? They didn’t deal with it by tactics such as feigning their spikes either?

2) My point about readily available self defense is void? Because every build in a team comp had these skills? Nope.

Because self defense skills weren’t counterable? You mean stance breaker’s and disenchants weren’t widely used? I must have been watching the wrong metas.

Because 8v8 with splits isn’t completely different than 5v5 with splits in how valuable self defense is?

Because dodge being an instant invincibility isn’t way better than ANY self defense available in GW1?

I’ll give you this. It’s not just that self defense is readily available, it’s that a higher quality of self defense is readily available versus teleports in Guild Wars 2.

3) Thieves have virtually no cooldowns? You mean their their resource pool isn’t 10 units deep and doesn’t take 10 seconds to recharge when exhausted? You mean that over the course of a team fight, any other profession can’t use at least twice as many resource dependent skills as a thief?

Resources don’t apply to self defense skills in GW2? You mean that dodges don’t take 10 seconds to recharge, or 5 seconds to recharge when buffed? You mean that the meta doesn’t have professions with dodges plus 2-3 other quality defensive skills?

4) Wait you mean defenses to counter teleports are in abundance now? So I don’t have to use sarcasm to point out obvious things that defeat your own argument, because you already did so yourself?

5) You mean that your lone opinion on game design is more important than the developers who have designed a game that has sold millions of copies?

I must be a scrub at everything or something.

I don’t agree at all. Thieves are barely useful as it is when it comes to actually winning spvp matches, you know by defending and standing on tiny circles. Sure they counter some professions/builds with their burst, but condition engineers and warriors hard counter thieves too. Good mesmers can easily go head to head with good thieves too. A skilled zerker ele might get killed by an lower skilled thief occasionally, but hey just look at what noob warriors and MM necros are achieving.

Thieves can run glass/zerker builds while maintaining plenty of survivability purely due to stealth, mobility or evades.
Any other class running a glass/zerker build is rendered completely pointless as long as a thief is around.
That is the problem.

Wintel.4873:

Thieves can run glass/zerker builds while maintaining plenty of survivability purely due to stealth, mobility or evades.
Any other class running a glass/zerker build is rendered completely pointless as long as a thief is around.
That is the problem.

Warrior, Guardian, Mesmer

Glass/Condi specs

All making appearances as glass cannon/glass condi in the meta recently post feature patch. Check the ESL tournaments.

Not a good platform to argue from.

Sounds like the snowflake argument again imo, “Thief is OP because it’s got high glass burst Direct Demage and high mobility! Thief is too much of a pretty and unique snowflake. Make it uglier or make more classes prettier like it!” Nevermind that every team can take thieves.

Shockwave.1230:

1) An aftercast, creating a delay between a teleport and inflicting damage, has nothing to do with reaction time? Really?

It added counterplay to a mechanic that originally had none. Moreover, preprotting is an option before the spike is initiated – when you’d see a sin run up to a target and notice the rest of the team syncing in with the damage support.
When the spiker already ports in, it is no longer preprotting, but typically just protting (typcally using the energy heavier prots such as spirit bond, or prot spirit in the past. Guardian or soa were barely an option to cast (in way of preprotting) after someone has already ported in to spike.

Shockwave.1230:

It only has to do with ignoring pre-prots? Because people didn’t deal with pre-prots via disenchants? They didn’t deal with it by tactics such as feigning their spikes either?

It had to do with spikes being virtually instant, unpredictable, and on a really low cooldown at it. Seeing a frontline run up to a target or bulls a careless midline, followed shortly by a spike, is a completely different thing than simply porting in to an unsuspecting target and unload all your kitten on it. And then there was the skill-reward ratio issue…
Also, there were 2 monks to catch the spike, so even if preprots are shattered, there was always the heal mo as the final line of defense. Things looked a tad different in TA, however. But sins had a long history of cheese in that arena too, which I rather not recall.

Shockwave.1230:

2) My point about readily available self defense is void? Because every build in a team comp had these skills? Nope.

Exactly, not every team would bring self-defense skills. My point was that the existance of counters doesn’t always magically balance out cheeze, especially not when it’s as rampant as sins were in their initial design.

Shockwave.1230:

Because self defense skills weren’t counterable? You mean stance breaker’s and disenchants weren’t widely used? I must have been watching the wrong metas.

Shield bash was typically the best anti-sin skill, and remains so to this day (for obvious reasons), but it was still a rare thing to see in gvg, while you’d typically see it ran on multiple classes in TA. And it’s not really counterable, if the user knows how to use it properly.
Also, stances were good vs spike sins, but suboptimal vs many other builds, mostly because of the spammable wild strike.
Your point being?
Mine was that forcing all remaining classes into speccing a newly implemented class is a good reason to sound the alarm.

Shockwave.1230:

Because dodge being an instant invincibility isn’t way better than ANY self defense available in GW1?

In theory it could be. But then there are asura midgets, bad skill cues, animations of many key skills being too generic, stealth, roots, and whatnot.

Shockwave.1230:

I’ll give you this. It’s not just that self defense is readily available, it’s that a higher quality of self defense is readily available versus teleports in Guild Wars 2.

I’ll give you this – I prefer genuine team-play oriented pvp, but you can prefer your group of individuals who occasionally suport each other, while constantly running around the map.
On a side note, there is no better self defense than stealth, and goes who has the best access to it. Exactly.

Shockwave.1230:

3) Thieves have virtually no cooldowns? You mean their their resource pool isn’t 10 units deep and doesn’t take 10 seconds to recharge when exhausted? You mean that over the course of a team fight, any other profession can’t use at least twice as many resource dependent skills as a thief?

Strawman. It’s situational, or in other words – it’s a matter of allocation, not to mention the resource ‘management’ can be made completely ridiculous by stacking passive mechanics from traits and weapons. Depending on the situation, you can easily use the same skill multiple times, be it to finish someone off, or to gtfo from a failed spike attempt, and no other class has that leisure.

Shockwave.1230:

Resources don’t apply to self defense skills in GW2? You mean that dodges don’t take 10 seconds to recharge, or 5 seconds to recharge when buffed? You mean that the meta doesn’t have professions with dodges plus 2-3 other quality defensive skills?

You really wanna start the argument how thieves have low access to dodging? You sure? Mind I’ll be bringing the evade and teleport arguments alongside in that battle.

Shockwave.1230:

4) Wait you mean defenses to counter teleports are in abundance now? So I don’t have to use sarcasm to point out obvious things that defeat your own argument, because you already did so yourself?

Defenses on most classes are finite, depending on what proffession you play (thieves again being a special snowflake in that regard). Moreover, you don’t use defenses to counter teleports per say, but to counter the heavy hitting skills that can be delivered ez with next to no risk because of all the cheeze that is ports and stealth.

Shockwave.1230:

5) You mean that your lone opinion on game design is more important than the developers who have designed a game that has sold millions of copies?

I must be a scrub at everything or something.

Do you work for Anet, or why do you echo their void argument of no. of copies sold?
I won’t be bitting this one bait, sorry. Read my past posts and find the many who dealt with that excuse of a strawman multiple times already.
Don’t mix hype with the quality of the game btw. Also, my opinion is BY FAR not lone.

Good example of problems i mentioned.
Having to sit on node with no reason or beeing unable to decap just because of enemy setup gives nothing to game.
It even doesnt have anything to do how the thief is played just because there is thief in game you have to stop using viable tactics.

And yes beeing unique snowflake in a game with 8 classes is bad, 7 classes play the game by one rules and 8th class playing by different rules is nothing good, and its not only about mobility.

Its not like thiefs using complete different system doesnt affect me, not only i have to always take thief in my team but i cant even play what i want, i can play power necro against ANY team setup, except if they have thief then im forced to relog condition necro, and thats the case basicly with every glass cannon they cant be viable while thief is the way it is.

Wow, I still come across bullkitten posts such as these

Wintel.4873:

Thieves can run glass/zerker builds while maintaining plenty of survivability purely due to stealth, mobility or evades.

Let’s not forget that thieves MUST run Berserkers Amulet, simply because there is no other option. They’re pidgeonholed into BA, as any other amulet won’t provide enough damage. Unlike mesmers and Ele’s thieves will never be anything else than roamers, simply due to their class design so cut the whine and move along. Mesmers and Ele can easily spec into point defenders, thieves can’t.

The argumentation in this thread gets more and more ridiculous. “I don’t want to adapt my build/playstyle according to the opposing team, therefore I’ll whine on the forum to get thieves out of the meta.” Portal Mesmers are in no way different than Thieves if we talk about the concerns you mentioned here, now does anyone complain about them? No.

tbh , the root of this hole cryinn and bublinn is that thief can offer a high reward for a low lvl skill play thats the only problem…
and i realy think this hole post was written form a 1v1 perspective… and in teamq thiefs aint suppose to 1v1 couse its a w8st of time ,even cappin apoint is tbh..
well i play thief but i tryed all other classes and i feel U but lets face it gw2 is a spamfest no matter what class u play , and no matter how pro u think ur its still a spamfest
mkey Cya

ooh i forgot , u can just put some burning or torment on thief and he is done, all that it takes .. and dont tell me that he can cleanse it , couse u can dodge his bursts, idont even know why am i participating in this silly talk post?

ajskold.6987:

ooh i forgot , u can just put some burning or torment on thief and he is done, all that it takes .. and dont tell me that he can cleanse it , couse u can dodge his bursts, idont even know why am i participating in this silly talk post?

Me neither, i mean you have no idea what is even going on in this game right?
You have never been in top 100 teamque or soloque right?
I might even guess you have never been on leaderboards and i mean 90% of all people who have played PVP have been on leaderboards.
Its nothing personal just by the way you speak its very obvious that you are not good player.
If game is still spamfest, just drop aoe on point, sit on points, oneshot this or that then you are still on hotjoin level.

leeto i dont wanna argue i am not a pro and not a top player ,but neither are u. i dont wanna argue with u but dont exxagerate , this game is a spamfest and i am not talking bout brailess aoe spam, this is the way it was designed , and all tha tkitten talk bout timing stuff and interupting important skills is a joke that can b overcome by spaminn..sad but true

-No other class in the game can go in full zerkers gear and expect to be alive after a failed burst attempt to a group of 2+ with same skill.

-A skilled player can blind chain and burst with huge damage without being hit once with thief, except any other class.

-Thiefs have the highest hitting and insane critting skill under stealth.

-No other class has 2 skills to teleport and evade stomps when downed.

-And this is personal opinion rather than objective fact, in my experience with non-arena sPvp, the biggest indicator of a team winning is them having 2+ SKILLED thiefs.

Thiefs scales much higher to be more powerful the more skillful the player gets then other classes

KarlaGrey.5903:

snip

Basically what I keep seeing as the underlying arguments from not just you but anyone that feels the if a problem is 1 or multiple of a couple of things:

• I don’t like the design of thief
• I don’t want to have to think about the thief’s impact on combat.
• I don’t like that the thief is a snowflake class, it should be like other classes, or other classes should be like it

These are all opinions. No person’s opinion on these things is invalid, but understand that these opinions do not somehow mean the thief is OP or make it require a redesign.

The thief is not the best option in every situation. It is likely the best hit and run class in the game, but it is not the best at everything. Also both teams can use a thief. Again If ele still had a 15s RTL, people wouldn’t be as upset, bcs this snowflake syndrome some people have about the thief wouldn’t be directed towards changing the thief, it’d be directed at making the classes they like do what the thief and ele can do with mobility.

Would like to see movement abilities on weapon skills

(Infiltrator’s Arrow, heartseeker, Rush, Fiery Rush, Ride the lightning, leap/savage leap….)

These all need to require a target.

The land speed difference over 25% signet or swiftness is overpowering. They are not being played as intended either. Fix this, and the problem disappears.

nekretaal.6485:

Would like to see movement abilities on weapon skills

(Infiltrator’s Arrow, heartseeker, Rush, Fiery Rush, Ride the lightning, leap/savage leap….)

These all need to require a target.

The land speed difference over 25% signet or swiftness is overpowering. They are not being played as intended either. Fix this, and the problem disappears.

RTL, savage leap, and infiltrator’s arrow are not affected by movement speed.

You’re assuming there is a problem with classes having skills like these usable without a target.

Odd opinion imo.

Shockwave.1230:

KarlaGrey.5903:

snip

Basically what I keep seeing as the underlying arguments from not just you but anyone that feels the if a problem is 1 or multiple of a couple of things:

• I don’t like the design of thief
• I don’t want to have to think about the thief’s impact on combat.
• I don’t like that the thief is a snowflake class, it should be like other classes, or other classes should be like it

These are all opinions. No person’s opinion on these things is invalid, but understand that these opinions do not somehow mean the thief is OP or make it require a redesign.

The thief is not the best option in every situation. It is likely the best hit and run class in the game, but it is not the best at everything. Also both teams can use a thief. Again If ele still had a 15s RTL, people wouldn’t be as upset, bcs this snowflake syndrome some people have about the thief wouldn’t be directed towards changing the thief, it’d be directed at making the classes they like do what the thief and ele can do with mobility.

Dude, thief is by far not the only class designed around cheese – mesmer and ranger are both equally faulty. Thief is just the most glaring issue, but if it would ACTUALLY get hit, the other two would also need to be adjusted.
Stealth, pets, and teleports are cheese no matter how you look at them, and will always be a problem in pvp, which is why Anet have shot themselves in the foot by designing classes around such cheesy mechanics to start with, especially given their original roles on GW1 – roles that (in certain builds) actually took a lot of skill to perform well with. It’s blatantly obvious they didn’t quite know what to do with what were formerly control classes on GW1, so they just turned to kitten.

Leeto.1570:

Just delete the thread XD why i even bother trying to convince hotjoiners that class that destroys strategy is bad for competetive play.
Go back to hotjoin and keep farming them chests, thats all that matters, you can kill thief in 1v1 so all is gut.
Maybe one day you will try out TPVP and realize what this game is really about.

ok so your saying players shouldent play thiefs and should be reworked since its not the way you want the game to be played

Initiative needs to be slowed by chilled (25-33%, not 66%), and there needs to either be a 2 ini cost increase for each consecutive use of the same skill or a SWTOR style energy management system where if you blow an entire initiative bar it’ll recharge much slower than if you pace and manage it. Stealth needs more counterplay beyond blind aoe as well. Every class should have at least one revealed applying ability and any ability used in stealth should remove it, but at the very least make it so that blocked/evaded/invulned stealth attacks reveal the thief. For the love of god make at least one aspect of the thief class require some small modicum of skill.

There’s too many brain dead mechanics on thief that ignore the rules applied to every single other class. Spammable z-axis teleports, so many baked in evade/stealth/blind defenses that there’s no drawback to going glass cannon (warrior and mesmer can pull this off to a lesser extent and that should be addressed as well), a plethora of get out of jail free cards that let thieves reset a fight or harass someone endlessly (sorry thieves, but defending a point from you ad infinitum is not the same thing as actually winning against you), ridiculous burst with no tells or risk that can one shot other glass cannons, and the list goes on and on and on, there’s almost no feature of the entire class that isn’t broken or a ridiculous double standard in some way. The whole class is a complete failure of design imo.

This thread makes me smile. You even brought burnfall and phantaram out hahahaha. Thieves (not thiefs – please learn this) add complexity to a match. They have several hard counters as well. Basically your complaint has no merit. The fact that you got burnfall in here pretty much confirms it

Sweetbread.2679:

Initiative needs to be slowed by chilled (25-33%, not 66%), and there needs to either be a 2 ini cost increase for each consecutive use of the same skill or a SWTOR style energy management system where if you blow an entire initiative bar it’ll recharge much slower than if you pace and manage it. Stealth needs more counterplay beyond blind aoe as well. Every class should have at least one revealed applying ability and any ability used in stealth should remove it, but at the very least make it so that blocked/evaded/invulned stealth attacks reveal the thief. For the love of god make at least one aspect of the thief class require some small modicum of skill.

There’s too many brain dead mechanics on thief that ignore the rules applied to every single other class. Spammable z-axis teleports, so many baked in evade/stealth/blind defenses that there’s no drawback to going glass cannon (warrior and mesmer can pull this off to a lesser extent and that should be addressed as well), a plethora of get out of jail free cards that let thieves reset a fight or harass someone endlessly (sorry thieves, but defending a point from you ad infinitum is not the same thing as actually winning against you), ridiculous burst with no tells or risk that can one shot other glass cannons, and the list goes on and on and on, there’s almost no feature of the entire class that isn’t broken or a ridiculous double standard in some way. The whole class is a complete failure of design imo.

The downside is thieves are glass, with no stability, and have 2 utility skills basically predefined on their bars because CC rocks their world.

The meta forces Direct Damage thieves to be what they are within their design. Some people don’t like it, but ANet designed them to be a mobile hit and run profession, and they nerf ed ele which was it’s only competition in mobility way back in the day. Thieves being what they are is in part by design and in part by the meta not allowing them to be much else.

Sorry if you don’t like, it’s a learning issue when people don’t know how to handle them, not that they are unfair. We know this bcs teams in 5v5 aren’t comprised of 5 thieves.

The complete and absolute lack of any form of risk versus reward on a Thief is the problem with the profession. The end.

Stealthing should not provide so many benefits while having 0 drawbacks. A Necromancer has to pick and choose when to use Death Shroud because while in it Life Force will drain. If used improperly this can result in a swift death. Thief however can readily use stealth as he or she pleases getting nothing but return from doing so with the only thing they need to think about being “do I want to be revealed now or after I’ve ported half way across the map.”

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

The complete and absolute lack of any form of risk versus reward on a Thief is the problem with the profession. The end.

Stealthing should not provide so many benefits while having 0 drawbacks. A Necromancer has to pick and choose when to use Death Shroud because while in it Life Force will drain. If used improperly this can result in a swift death. Thief however can readily use stealth as he or she pleases getting nothing but return from doing so with the only thing they need to think about being “do I want to be revealed now or after I’ve ported half way across the map.”

This is a thread in the spvp forum. Thieves use very limited stealth there because they can’t cap points while stealthed. Your whole argument is invalid and your assertion that thieves have no risk is childish at best.

Shockwave.1230:

The downside is thieves are glass, with no stability, and have 2 utility skills basically predefined on their bars because CC rocks their world.

The meta forces Direct Damage thieves to be what they are within their design. Some people don’t like it, but ANet designed them to be a mobile hit and run profession, and they nerf ed ele which was it’s only competition in mobility way back in the day. Thieves being what they are is in part by design and in part by the meta not allowing them to be much else.

Sorry if you don’t like, it’s a learning issue when people don’t know how to handle them, not that they are unfair. We know this bcs teams in 5v5 aren’t comprised of 5 thieves.

Except zerker thieves aren’t glass. A fresh air burst ele is glass, they either pull off their burst or they make a mistake and die. A zerker thief either pulls off their burst or they make a mistake and then escape, reset the fight, and try again. Yes. Woe is the “glass” cannon thief lol.

I don’t think anyone’s arguing against a high mobility class. They’re arguing against a high mobility class with no downsides that doesn’t require a quarter of a brain cell to use. Also how many times now has Anet proven that they don’t have a clue what they’re doing? You REALLY wanna stick with the whole “that is their design” argument when their “design” philosophy shifts at the drop of a hat?

Yeah and you didn’t see 5 hambow teams either, probably because a thief was absolutely required as a roamer lol. Somehow that makes pre nerf hambow a skill based balanced build that everyone thought was just peachy? Hyperbole doesn’t help your case, unless your case is to look like you aren’t actually thinking about any of this. Come back with an actual argument that isn’t just an extended cover for an idiotic “l2p” post.

Sweetbread.2679:

Shockwave.1230:

The downside is thieves are glass, with no stability, and have 2 utility skills basically predefined on their bars because CC rocks their world.

The meta forces Direct Damage thieves to be what they are within their design. Some people don’t like it, but ANet designed them to be a mobile hit and run profession, and they nerf ed ele which was it’s only competition in mobility way back in the day. Thieves being what they are is in part by design and in part by the meta not allowing them to be much else.

Sorry if you don’t like, it’s a learning issue when people don’t know how to handle them, not that they are unfair. We know this bcs teams in 5v5 aren’t comprised of 5 thieves.

Except zerker thieves aren’t glass. A fresh air burst ele is glass, they either pull off their burst or they make a mistake and die. A zerker thief either pulls off their burst or they make a mistake and then escape, reset the fight, and try again. Yes. Woe is the “glass” cannon thief lol.

I don’t think anyone’s arguing against a high mobility class. They’re arguing against a high mobility class with no downsides that doesn’t require a quarter of a brain cell to use. Also how many times now has Anet proven that they don’t have a clue what they’re doing? You REALLY wanna stick with the whole “that is their design” argument when their “design” philosophy shifts at the drop of a hat?

Yeah and you didn’t see 5 hambow teams either, probably because a thief was absolutely required as a roamer lol. Somehow that makes pre nerf hambow a skill based balanced build that everyone thought was just peachy? Hyperbole doesn’t help your case, unless your case is to look like you aren’t actually thinking about any of this. Come back with an actual argument that isn’t just an extended cover for an idiotic “l2p” post.

Thief isn’t required as a roamer, it’s just the most mobile roamer. Decap engi can roam just fine, because you have to send 2 players to counter it in a timely manner.

All I’m pointing out is that ANet decided to make thief the only profession that does what it does, they nerfed RTL forever ago which let ele do the very similar things as thief, specifically stating they wanted thief to be more mobile than other classes and be able to escape, because they couldn’t vs ele when it had a 15 second RTL with 1550 range.

Saying it’s broken, isn’t true, because it works as designed. Some people just don’t like the design decision.